New dog contract?

[yorketransport]

I found a breeder in Idaho with a litter of WPG pups due to be born next month. He sent me a copy of his contract to review and I had a couple questions before I talked to the breeder again.

I assume that it's pretty standard to have a contract with the breeder regarding basic care and training. There is also clause that the breeder retains breeding rights to all male dogs with some limitations on spay/neuter. This isn't a big issue to me because I would rather have a female. Is it normal for a breeder to ask that the dog remain un-altered though?

There is a guarantee for the heath of the dog and that they will be free of hereditary defects before the age of 30 months. Is 30 months long enough for the defects to start to show up? This makes me feel pretty confident, but I'm curious if this is pretty typical of reputable breeders.

I suppose the last real question I have is how far will you go drive to pick up your dog? Twin Falls Idaho isn't exactly down the road from Yelm! Would you have your dog shipped, or just make the drive? This is actually the biggest concern I have at this point.

Andrew

[Knocker of rocks]

For that distance, I'd drive rather than let the poor little baby be shipped.

What are the resolutions if the animal has hereditary defects?  It's one thing to say it, but how is it remedied?  Do you give it back?  Get your money back?  Those are really your only two options.

For me, the other conditions seem pretty onerous.  I wouldn't want anyone else telling me what I could or could not do with my dog.

[Knocker of rocks]

It's probably a completely unenforceable contract anyway

[Forks]

Make the drive if you can, I have had two of my pups shipped and both were a bad deal. Plus you get to meet the breeder and see his setup.

[buckfvr]

Make him send a verifiable list of references and check them!!!!!!  I would drive there and see if he is professional or backyard.  I would also make a trip of it and go look at and talk to more than one breeder.....compare their contracts.....dont look at some pictures and then have it shipped.....GO SEE !!!  I would have to have a few lined up to make the trip worth it, but even from Yelm, Id go Idaho, Montana, and probably the Dakotas.  A sporting dog vet told me years ago, if I wanted trouble free gun dogs, go out of state to atleast MOntana, Dakotas would be better.     Oh, and dont be shy about movin on........dont like what you see.....out of dodge.

[ghosthunter]

The best advice I can give is do not get in a hurry. Check things out on several breeders.

I would not buy from a breeder who was telling me what I had to do with the dog after I paid my money.

Like have to feed it this or that, and weather to spay or nueter unless I wanted too.
When I bought my lab I had no interst in breeding so no problem getting her spayed.

Make a list of what you intend to do with the dog and what your basic requirements are. Some breeder contracts are from another planet.

I too have been told breeder contracts cannot be enforced, but for me if I make a agreement I stick to it.

Here is the thread I started when I looking for my lab pup. It might give you some ideas.

Good luck

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,101124.0.html

[Don Fischer]

I wouldn't sign a contract for anything. I have a friend with a female setter that has an agreement for a breeding. Not a chance, you buy the dog, it's your's. You sell a dog it's gone. That's not to say there are a lot of dogs sold on contract's, there are. But my view is you take my money without a contract and I take your pup without a contract. Health guarantee should come with the pup. Nothing wrong with my money and shouldn't be with your pup.

[Johnb317]

Got our lab 13+ years ago from Conway kennels near mt Vernon.
Fantastic bird dog and companion. 
I would want to see the breeders setup, and the pedigree of the dogs before signing anything. 

[AspenBud]

Breeding contracts are not uncommon. But usually they require one or two litters down the road, not a total ban on spaying and neutering afterwards.

It's an attractive option for some breeders since it means keeping fewer dogs in their kennel and in counties with stricter laws surrounding the number of dogs you can keep in your kennel that can be a big deal.

If you don't like it, don't buy a dog from them that has that clause attached to it.

[turkeyfeather]

I can see maybe asking for some of those things, but no breeder is gonna tell me what I can and cant do with MY dog.

[yorketransport]

Lots of good advice so far, thanks!

Here's a little more info. I've met the sire of the litter and his owner (Carol Ptak). She is very familiar with both the breeder and the dam of the litter. I have a 10 generation pedigree for both the sire and dam as well. Both have clean histories with no links to the "hybrid" gene found in the WPG line. I'm pretty comfortable with the background of both the dogs and the breeder.

For the contract, I'm not really worried about it that much. The breeder retains co-ownership of the dog until he receives verification of spay/neuter. I have no intention of breeding (the last thing I want is a whole litter of dogs running around!) so I expect to have the dog spayed as soon as possible. If the dog tests positive for hereditary defects within 30 months, it will be replaced with a comparable pup. If something shows up during the initial vet checkup, a full refund will be given after the dog is returned (at the breeder's expense).

The whole contract thing was just a little weird to me. This is my first endeavor into the world of "high end" dogs, so I just wasn't sure if this was normal or not. I've talked to a few other breeders as well. Some make me a little nervous after looking over the pedigree of their litters. The other's don't have any litters planned until next year.

The whole process seems to be a matter of finding the right dog, the right breeder, and the right time. I will say that I'm very cautious about jumping into this. I usually am though when it involves opening up my wallet this much.

Andrew

[Stilly bay]

If the dog tests positive for hereditary defects within 30 months, it will be replaced with a comparable pup.

I would like to know: How many times in the history of dog contracts someone has actually returned a dog with defects for a dog from the same breeder in return for a new puppy?
This is very common language in puppy contracts, but a complete catch 22 that I find somewhat insulting.

Are you going to give away a dog that you have had for up to 30 months? a few months is more than enough time for most people to form an emotional attachment to a puppy.

What about all the money you have spent in food, training, and not to mention vet care to determine what problems this dog has?

what is going to become of your old dog? Its not breeding material. If the breeder was interested in rehoming it they would have just let you keep it in the first place. It will mostly likely be destroyed if you actually call the breeders bluff on this part of the contract and bring your faulty dog back.

why would you want a dog from the same breeder so that you could go through this all again?

It has always seemed much more fare to offer a new pup and let you keep the original one... but again why would you want another potential problem child?

I have seen some puppy contracts that border on the ridiculous as to the hoops they want potential owners to jump through. There is really no way to enforce these wishes, but at least they have a piece of paper with your signature on it IF you take them to court or IF they take you. Two big "IFs" there.

[Shannon]

I have flown to Boise twice to pick up a pup. Alaskan Airlines didn't charge any extra if I remember correctly and I carried them on with me. That would be cheaper with the price of fuel anymore than driving there. I just tire the pup out and give them a little water before getting on and they both slept most of the way. Good luck with your new pup.

[JJD]

Contracts tend to be a show of good faith, but little more.
I spend a good amount of time getting to know the breeder, checking references and health clearences.  Regardless, it's a bit of a crap shoot, but it scews the odds in your favor if you check out the forementioned.  I never get in any hurry in purchasing a pup, mormally about a 2 yr process.

[Becky]

I used to be into dog showing, so although I have no experience with actual hunting dogs, I do have experience with dog contracts... and they for SURE are common. You will not see a reputable breeder without one, and each breeder is different but most of the contracts are variations on the same. Show proof of shots, show proof of this, do this or that.

-For the neuter/breeding rights, this more pertains to if they deem the pup as a good quality specimen. Usually the contract was double sided, saying if you were getting a "show quality" pup (for my instance) you're actually paying more and the breeder retains breeding rights. You had to keep the pup intact if this were the case, otherwise they'd sell you a different puppy - which comes to the flip side. If the pup was deemed "pet quality" which meant nothing was wrong with them at all, just wasn't what they were looking for in the show ring (maybe off colored coat) so they didn't want to breed back with that dog, then the contract stated you had 3 months to show proof of spay/neuter and you had to sign off that you wouldn't breed the pup.

-For the health guarantee, it's usually a guarantee that you get a different pup from another litter if something hereditary should arise. I never seen someone get their money back. I'd ask for more clarification on what they specifically have laid out for that part of the contract. That one is a slippery slope, most breeders that I found are not necessarily asking for the original dog back at that point but you do have to show vet proof etc. and work things out. It's hard because by that time it's YOUR dog, that you love, and if it's a breeder that is wanting to swap out for a better health one then what do you do 

-I'd drive/fly to Idaho myself, I'd go one state over in each direction for a pup. I've picked up pups flown in on a plane before though but that was from the east coast. They were fine.