Post by: 3nails on August 13, 2013, 07:17:14 PM
Post by: TheSkyBuster on August 13, 2013, 09:38:12 PM
Personally I don't open carry (at least not very often) I've always felt concealed carry was a much better option and made more sense...... For me. But with settlements of 15 Grand being paid out I might start open carrying in public places a little more frequently. The odds of "Hitting the Legal jackpot" are probably much higher than winning the lottery. Of course that only works if some Idiot Cop doesn't shoot you first. :o
Post by: Skillet on August 13, 2013, 09:40:19 PM
Post by: TheSkyBuster on August 13, 2013, 10:00:50 PM
Your taxes are covering the $15k this guy is getting because of a power tripping cop... does he really deserve a payment of any kind? Cop deserves to lose his job for unjustifiably pulling on a lawful citizen, I agree 100%. But the guy getting $15k out of a municipal fund for the idiot with a badge's actions? :bdid:
Yes,
"This Guy" A Law abiding citizen who was exercising his right to carry a firearm for personal protection, had his life threatened by an officer of the Law (who was unaware of the laws?). This officer needs to be held accountable as well as the jurisdiction that employed a peace officer with out the proper training or knowledge of the law. I would much rather my tax dollars be paid to Law abiding Legal citizens who were wronged than to Illegal immigrants looking for a hand out.
Post by: 3nails on August 14, 2013, 05:28:52 AM
Your taxes are covering the $15k this guy is getting because of a power tripping cop... does he really deserve a payment of any kind? Cop deserves to lose his job for unjustifiably pulling on a lawful citizen, I agree 100%. But the guy getting $15k out of a municipal fund for the idiot with a badge's actions? :bdid:Yes I would rather see the cop lose his job. That small sum seems rather grimy. Like a payoff.
Post by: Skillet on August 14, 2013, 06:31:57 AM
I would much rather my tax dollars be paid to Law abiding Legal citizens who were wronged than to Illegal immigrants looking for a hand out.
Wasn't aware those were the only two choices... :rolleyes:
Post by: GoldTip on August 14, 2013, 06:37:33 AM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on August 14, 2013, 07:03:45 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 14, 2013, 08:03:27 AM
Post by: xd2005 on August 14, 2013, 08:24:01 AM
Good for him. I hope he gets a new gun and a tone of ammo and accessories. I think monetary awards do two things; they compensate and they teach. It must've been pretty scary having a pistol pointed at him and because he was doing absolutely nothing wrong, he should be compensated for that trauma. The $15K will make sure the police officers in the department are thoroughly trained as to our rights and serves as a deterrent to future infringements. Cops and other government officials need to be reminded sometimes that we're their bosses, especially those of us who aren't breaking the law.
Unfortunately, as "their bosses," we're also the ones giving them their money for the $15k fine (although i am not sure if insurance kicks in right away or if there is a deductible). Point is, it's not money out of their pocket, but rather ours. I private industry, if an employee costs the owner a $15k fine, they can easily fire them so it doesn't happen again. Here, our only choice is to open our wallets and ask "how much do you need now?"
Post by: NWWA Hunter on August 14, 2013, 08:37:05 AM
Post by: seth30 on August 14, 2013, 08:49:31 AM
Post by: Skillet on August 14, 2013, 09:01:38 AM
Good for him. I hope he gets a new gun and a tone of ammo and accessories. I think monetary awards do two things; they compensate and they teach. It must've been pretty scary having a pistol pointed at him and because he was doing absolutely nothing wrong, he should be compensated for that trauma. The $15K will make sure the police officers in the department are thoroughly trained as to our rights and serves as a deterrent to future infringements. Cops and other government officials need to be reminded sometimes that we're their bosses, especially those of us who aren't breaking the law.
That's lawyer-think, P-Man. That's what is at the root of the problems in this country. Open carrying a gun, and he got $15K worth of scared when one is pulled on him? I call BS on that. He had the hardware himself, he had the understanding of what a gun does (which is nothing that the possessor doesn't make it to do). How much do you ask from one of your pheasant hunting buddies if he accidentally sweeps you with his muzzle when he switches arms? 'Bout a grand for that? How about the guy that hands you the gun from the display case but doesn't clear it before handing it over, but doesn't point it at you? $500 off the price of the gun for that one? When I'm hunting and I get scoped (happened once), I get pissed, not scared. I certainly don't go and ask the idiot for $15K for doing it. If I get the chance, I tell him what a stupid move that was. Paying out $15K out of a muni fund is just $15K worth of something else that is actually needed and doesn't happen. Like training cops on the laws they are sworn to protect, which happens to jump into my mind at this point for some reason.
Ambulance-chaser lawyers are ruining this country. We are the laughing stock of the world when it comes to frivolous lawsuits. This $15K wasn't paid to compensate for fear, it was paid for his signature to guarantee he won't sue. Think about that - the city of BHam paid $15K to some guy who suffered no actual loss. $15K just to keep it out of the courts. And smart people seem to think this is ok? Sad. :bash:
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 14, 2013, 09:04:22 AM
Good for him. I hope he gets a new gun and a tone of ammo and accessories. I think monetary awards do two things; they compensate and they teach. It must've been pretty scary having a pistol pointed at him and because he was doing absolutely nothing wrong, he should be compensated for that trauma. The $15K will make sure the police officers in the department are thoroughly trained as to our rights and serves as a deterrent to future infringements. Cops and other government officials need to be reminded sometimes that we're their bosses, especially those of us who aren't breaking the law.
Unfortunately, as "their bosses," we're also the ones giving them their money for the $15k fine (although i am not sure if insurance kicks in right away or if there is a deductible). Point is, it's not money out of their pocket, but rather ours. I private industry, if an employee costs the owner a $15k fine, they can easily fire them so it doesn't happen again. Here, our only choice is to open our wallets and ask "how much do you need now?"
Yes, and as a taxpayer, that gives me extra incentive to put pressure on my police force to do their job correctly. County sherrifs are elected and so are mayors who appoint police chiefs. If they don't appoint the right one and put pressure on them to do their jobs without infringing on law-abiding citizens, they get voted out. Just because the taxpayers foot the bill doesn't mean that the award shouldn't be given.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 14, 2013, 09:07:19 AM
Good for him. I hope he gets a new gun and a tone of ammo and accessories. I think monetary awards do two things; they compensate and they teach. It must've been pretty scary having a pistol pointed at him and because he was doing absolutely nothing wrong, he should be compensated for that trauma. The $15K will make sure the police officers in the department are thoroughly trained as to our rights and serves as a deterrent to future infringements. Cops and other government officials need to be reminded sometimes that we're their bosses, especially those of us who aren't breaking the law.
That's lawyer-think, P-Man. That's what is at the root of the problems in this country. Open carrying a gun, and he got $15K worth of scared when one is pulled on him? I call BS on that. He had the hardware himself, he had the understanding of what a gun does (which is nothing that the possessor doesn't make it to do). How much do you ask from one of your pheasant hunting buddies if he accidentally sweeps you with his muzzle when he switches arms? 'Bout a grand for that? How about the guy that hands you the gun from the display case but doesn't clear it before handing it over, but doesn't point it at you? $500 off the price of the gun for that one? When I'm hunting and I get scoped (happened once), I get pissed, not scared. I certainly don't go and ask the idiot for $15K for doing it. If I get the chance, I tell him what a stupid move that was. Paying out $15K out of a muni fund is just $15K worth of something else that is actually needed and doesn't happen. Like training cops on the laws they are sworn to protect, which happens to jump into my mind at this point for some reason.
Ambulance-chaser lawyers are ruining this country. We are the laughing stock of the world when it comes to frivolous lawsuits. This $15K wasn't paid to compensate for fear, it was paid for his signature to guarantee he won't sue. Think about that - the city of BHam paid $15K to some guy who suffered no actual loss. $15K just to keep it out of the courts. And smart people seem to think this is ok? Sad. :bash:
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. It's Constitution think. If you were practicing your 1st Amendment right of free speech and a cop stuck a gun in your face for doing so, do you think that's right? It's no different with the 2nd Amendment. Both are equally guaranteed to us under our beloved Constitution. If the cop and the force have no repercussions for doing so, do you think they'll change their ways? They won't.
Post by: Skillet on August 14, 2013, 09:23:14 AM
As far as the police discipline is concerned, show me a cop whose union isn't strong enough to protect him from dismissal over pulling a gun on a citizen and I'll show you a minimum wage security guard.
I often think you have a good perspective on issues such as these, but in this case I too respectfully agree to disagree.
Post by: GoldTip on August 14, 2013, 09:35:40 AM
Never said it was right - I only said it's BS that he got $15K worth of scared - especially since he was carrying. It's not Constitutional issue - it is a "CommonSensical" issue. If it was a teenage vegan pacifist hippy doing yoga in the park and she got a gun pulled on her while doing the downward dog, I'd be more likely to buy that she got $15K worth of scared. And I'd bet that $15K would be spent on therapists and counselors and healing sessions and group hugs. I don't see a guy that open carries taking his $15K to the therapist and laying on the couch crying about how traumatized he was. So it isn't compensation for damages - it's just "go away" money.
As far as the police discipline is concerned, show me a cop whose union isn't strong enough to protect him from dismissal over pulling a gun on a citizen and I'll show you a minimum wage security guard.
I often think you have a good perspective on issues such as these, but in this case I too respectfully agree to disagree.
Very well said. Although I never want a gun pulled on me by a police officer, I sure aint going to turn around and sue the officer or the city or the country or the state. Really? Anyone truly believes this was a 15k mistake? Even if the cop was just being a complete Richard Cranium on a powertrip, the Master Seargant deserves no more than an apology from the Chief of Police and the Mayor and an assurance that training steps will be taken to rectify the situation.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 14, 2013, 09:38:49 AM
Never said it was right - I only said it's BS that he got $15K worth of scared - especially since he was carrying. It's not Constitutional issue - it is a "CommonSensical" issue. If it was a teenage vegan pacifist hippy doing yoga in the park and she got a gun pulled on her while doing the downward dog, I'd be more likely to buy that she got $15K worth of scared. And I'd bet that $15K would be spent on therapists and counselors and healing sessions and group hugs. I don't see a guy that open carries taking his $15K to the therapist and laying on the couch crying about how traumatized he was. So it isn't compensation for damages - it's just "go away" money.
As far as the police discipline is concerned, show me a cop whose union isn't strong enough to protect him from dismissal over pulling a gun on a citizen and I'll show you a minimum wage security guard.
I often think you have a good perspective on issues such as these, but in this case I too respectfully agree to disagree.
OK, we disagree. Thanks for your perspective. :tup:
Post by: Skillet on August 14, 2013, 09:49:27 AM
Here's an example of things going correctly and at least ONE person (CT State Claims Commissioner) standing up to ridiculous lawsuits-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/14/charla-nash-chimp-attack-victim-lawsuit-denied_n_3443456.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/14/charla-nash-chimp-attack-victim-lawsuit-denied_n_3443456.html)
"HARTFORD, Conn. — A Connecticut woman disfigured by a friend's pet chimpanzee in 2009 was denied permission Friday to sue the state for $150 million on her claim that officials knew the animal was dangerous but didn't do anything about it.
The state claims commissioner released a five-page decision approving the state's motion to dismiss Charla Nash's claim, saying the law at the time allowed private ownership of chimpanzees and didn't require officials to seize legal animals. The state generally is immune to lawsuits, unless allowed by the claims commissioner."
Of course, her lawyer isn't willing to walk away from a third of $150 million, so they will appeal to the state legislature. And the elected officials there (overwhelmingly Democrats) will no doubt approve her lawsuit to go forward, because they are beholden to the news media cycle and can't afford the negative sound bytes that would come with denying the claim.
$150 Million equates to $115.38 of tax money for each and every of Connecticut's 1.3 million households. And we all know that a significant number of households don't pay taxes, so the actual burden on those that do is much higher.
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on August 14, 2013, 09:50:05 AM
Compensation and assurance that there would be training extended to the force, a repremand filed, along with an appology from the LEO that should know the law should be in order. That said, I do realize that those in blue are not attorneys/judges with in-depth knowledge of all laws. That's why we have a court system. Still, for such as was reported I would think LEO's of this state to be just as well versed in Open/Concealed Carry RCW's as any umpire should know how to interpret the Infield Fly rule in Baseball.
-Steve
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 14, 2013, 09:51:20 AM
Likewise. A final example of what I am referring to, although three orders of magnitude larger, but I think the concept is the same:
Here's an example of things going correctly and at least ONE person (CT State Claims Commissioner) standing up to ridiculous lawsuits-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/14/charla-nash-chimp-attack-victim-lawsuit-denied_n_3443456.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/14/charla-nash-chimp-attack-victim-lawsuit-denied_n_3443456.html)
"HARTFORD, Conn. — A Connecticut woman disfigured by a friend's pet chimpanzee in 2009 was denied permission Friday to sue the state for $150 million on her claim that officials knew the animal was dangerous but didn't do anything about it.
The state claims commissioner released a five-page decision approving the state's motion to dismiss Charla Nash's claim, saying the law at the time allowed private ownership of chimpanzees and didn't require officials to seize legal animals. The state generally is immune to lawsuits, unless allowed by the claims commissioner."
Of course, her lawyer isn't willing to walk away from a third of $150 million, so they will appeal to the state legislature. And the elected officials there (overwhelmingly Democrats) will no doubt approve her lawsuit to go forward, because they are beholden to the news media cycle and can't afford the negative sound bytes that would come with denying the claim.
$150 Million equates to $115.38 of tax money for each and every of Connecticut's 1.3 million households. And we all know that a significant number of households don't pay taxes, so the actual burden on those that do is much higher.
I agree with this decision to throw out. Different circumstance. Now, if the city owned the chimp, that would be a different story.
Post by: Skillet on August 14, 2013, 10:07:45 AM
If I was illegally mistreated or harrassed by a peace officer, I would take the award, pay my attorney, buy another gun or two and probably donate an amount to a worthy cause. Being swept by a shottie barrel out huntin birds, being scoped by a poor choice of hunting practice by a fellow hunter, or being handed an unchecked weapon at the gun counter are all poor choices/actions, but they are certainly not the same as haveing a LEO (or anyone) take a defensive position while aiming his/her weapon at my center mass point blank. At that point, it is safe to assume a loaded weapon. It is safe to assume that any movement by me can be considered aggressive. At that point, it would be safe to assume that my life could be ended in a flash. I'm not the one wearing the vest....
Compensation and assurance that there would be training extended to the force, a repremand filed, along with an appology from the LEO that should know the law should be in order. That said, I do realize that those in blue are not attorneys/judges with in-depth knowledge of all laws. That's why we have a court system. Still, for such as was reported I would think LEO's of this state to be just as well versed in Open/Concealed Carry RCW's as any umpire should know how to interpret the Infield Fly rule in Baseball.
-Steve
Granted, I used those examples as "over-the-top" extensions of the logic to illustrate my point. I agree they are not likely to be something someone would seriously consider getting compensation for. But in this case, are you saying you would have contacted an attorney about being unjustifiably drawn upon and used their services to seek "damages" from the municipality? What would the basis of your damage claim been?
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 14, 2013, 10:15:45 AM
Post by: Skillet on August 14, 2013, 10:20:31 AM
I agree with this decision to throw out. Different circumstance. Now, if the city owned the chimp, that would be a different story.
Absolutely - very different circumstance, but a good illustration of the idea that the government with deep pockets should be held accountable for everything. She already got her $4 million in damages from the estate of the chimp owner... but the lawyer no doubt convinced her that somehow, the state of CT needed to learn a $150 million lesson for not passing a law earlier that would make that chimp illegal... of course, the $150 Million would come from the pockets of the hardworking good people of the state of CT. What lesson do they learn in that case? They need to elect people to make laws to prevent completely unpredictable occurrences before they happen? No, the actual lesson to the people of CT then is "unless we elect officials who we allow to make a million laws governing our every move, we will pay dearly".
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 14, 2013, 10:23:35 AM
I agree with this decision to throw out. Different circumstance. Now, if the city owned the chimp, that would be a different story.
Absolutely - very different circumstance, but a good illustration of the idea that the government with deep pockets should be held accountable for everything. She already got her $4 million in damages from the estate of the chimp owner... but the lawyer no doubt convinced her that somehow, the state of CT needed to learn a $150 million lesson for not passing a law earlier that would make that chimp illegal... of course, the $150 Million would come from the pockets of the hardworking good people of the state of CT. What lesson do they learn in that case? They need to elect people to make laws to prevent completely unpredictable occurrences before they happen? No, the actual lesson to the people of CT then is "unless we elect officials who we allow to make a million laws governing our every move, we will pay dearly".
Agreed. As far as the $4M award is concerned, if I lost my face, I would probably think that's peanuts, too. But, i wouldn't be going after the state for it. I fully expect some of my HW friends to add that on me, that woulnd't be a great loss! :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on August 14, 2013, 10:53:25 AM
If I was illegally mistreated or harrassed by a peace officer, I would take the award, pay my attorney, buy another gun or two and probably donate an amount to a worthy cause. Being swept by a shottie barrel out huntin birds, being scoped by a poor choice of hunting practice by a fellow hunter, or being handed an unchecked weapon at the gun counter are all poor choices/actions, but they are certainly not the same as haveing a LEO (or anyone) take a defensive position while aiming his/her weapon at my center mass point blank. At that point, it is safe to assume a loaded weapon. It is safe to assume that any movement by me can be considered aggressive. At that point, it would be safe to assume that my life could be ended in a flash. I'm not the one wearing the vest....
Compensation and assurance that there would be training extended to the force, a repremand filed, along with an appology from the LEO that should know the law should be in order. That said, I do realize that those in blue are not attorneys/judges with in-depth knowledge of all laws. That's why we have a court system. Still, for such as was reported I would think LEO's of this state to be just as well versed in Open/Concealed Carry RCW's as any umpire should know how to interpret the Infield Fly rule in Baseball.
-Steve
Granted, I used those examples as "over-the-top" extensions of the logic to illustrate my point. I agree they are not likely to be something someone would seriously consider getting compensation for. But in this case, are you saying you would have contacted an attorney about being unjustifiably drawn upon and used their services to seek "damages" from the municipality? What would the basis of your damage claim been?
THERE IS NO REASON WHAT SO EVER FOR A NON-COMBATANT TO EVER HAVE THEIR LIFE THREATENED BY A LEO. NEVER! Just the act of being drawn upon is that threat. Not knowing all of the legal'eze, I would have explored my options. They are employed to serve and protect, (And most are pretty darn devoted to doing just that.), as the officer was possibly responding to a call that someone felt threatened by this guy having a firearm in plain sight; he probably thought he/she was doing thier job. I expect them to do it properly. We are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of frivolous lawsuites for extraordinary moneys... But I do believe that to be a traumatic situation that was uncalled for. I think that fifteen grand was a good number.. Ten might have even sufficed. In most cases I don't think it is the money so much as acknowledgement of a wrong and a path to training so it doesn't happen to someone else. No different than rewards for pain and suffering from a motor vehicle accident. Sure, fix my car. Pay my medical bills. I'll just sweep the stress and family/hunting/work events that I've missed for the last six months while I was in the hospital in pain, under the rug and call it all good. -Not!
-Steve
Post by: Bean Counter on August 14, 2013, 11:02:08 AM
Post by: MadHatter on August 14, 2013, 11:59:48 AM
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?98075-Bellingham-police-draw-down-on-Open-Carrier/page10 (http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?98075-Bellingham-police-draw-down-on-Open-Carrier/page10)
Post by: MadHatter on August 14, 2013, 12:07:50 PM
So not only does he get some $$$ out of it, which is punitive in nature, he is also working with ohers from the OC community to get the proper training for B'ham PD. They are not only doing OC either, they are setting up training on how to deal with ALL legally armed citizens...
Post by: Alchase on August 14, 2013, 12:09:42 PM
Post by: Bean Counter on August 14, 2013, 12:18:33 PM
Granted, I used those examples as "over-the-top" extensions of the logic to illustrate my point. I agree they are not likely to be something someone would seriously consider getting compensation for. But in this case, are you saying you would have contacted an attorney about being unjustifiably drawn upon and used their services to seek "damages" from the municipality? What would the basis of your damage claim been?
There is a difference between compensatory damages and punitive damages.
Post by: MP123 on August 14, 2013, 03:22:17 PM
Post by: 3nails on August 14, 2013, 06:31:00 PM
Post by: JLS on August 14, 2013, 08:43:42 PM
The officer should not be pointing his firearm at a suspect when he draws it, unless he intends to pull the trigger. That is what every agency in the state should be teaching and is what new recruits are taught at the academy. Old habits die hard though, and many veteran officers who were trained differently still do this inadvertantly.
I highly doubt the cop will be fired, and based upon reading the victim's account on the Open Carry forum, it doesn't sound like he should be.
Post by: GoldTip on August 15, 2013, 06:41:42 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 15, 2013, 06:52:25 AM
I must admit, I am quite surprised at the overwhelmingly liberal point of view almost every single poster has on this thread. Really, really surprised, and saddened. :(
I can't wait to hear what you're calling a liberal point of view. This should be good. Please be more specific. Thanks. :tup:
Post by: JJD on August 15, 2013, 09:02:26 AM
Post by: JLS on August 15, 2013, 09:06:34 AM
The guy was probably NOT going to get any kind of an apology until an attorney got involved. The only real winner here was likely the attorney who likely got most of the $$. The only time things like this seem to change is when it ends up in the public eye, via the media. If the legal avenue had not been taken, the incident would have been swept under the rug and nothing would have changed. While it might be 15k out of our own pocket, it might be $$ well spent.
Actually, per the man's own account the officer did apologize at the time.
Post by: GoldTip on August 15, 2013, 09:15:26 AM
I must admit, I am quite surprised at the overwhelmingly liberal point of view almost every single poster has on this thread. Really, really surprised, and saddened. :(
I can't wait to hear what you're calling a liberal point of view. This should be good. Please be more specific. Thanks. :tup:
OK, you asked for it. Anyone who expects something for nothing. Which in my experience is exactly what happened here, imho. The Master Seargent deserved no more than an apology in my opinion, and assurances it wouldn't happen again. All said and done, for what we know, the officer was just doing his job. Someone called and complained that there was a man in the park walking around carrying a gun, the officer responded and most likely felt he was doing his job. Was he over zealous yes, should he have known the law, yes. Does the Master Seargent deserve an apology, yes. And that's all in my opinion.
Someone expressed the opinion on this thread that maybe they deserve a settlement for pain and suffering following a car accident. If they are disabled and can not work, then yes, I agree they do deserve a settlement. Do they deserve having their wages paid while they can't work and have their car fixed yes. Do they deserve to get money because they had a stiff neck for 2 weeks and couldn't go on their evening walk with their little sweetie, simply because someone ACCIDENTLY hit the gas when they should have hit the brake. ABSOLUTELY NOT. It was an ACCIDENT, period. That and the feeling the Master Seargent should be paid simply for having a gun pointed at him, those are LIBERAL sentiments, expecting something for nothing. Just my honest opinion, and when the country started feeling that way it has become a slippery slope, a slippery slope indeed.
Post by: 6x6in6 on August 15, 2013, 09:41:14 AM
I completely agree with your opinion.I must admit, I am quite surprised at the overwhelmingly liberal point of view almost every single poster has on this thread. Really, really surprised, and saddened. :(
I can't wait to hear what you're calling a liberal point of view. This should be good. Please be more specific. Thanks. :tup:
OK, you asked for it. Anyone who expects something for nothing. Which in my experience is exactly what happened here, imho. The Master Seargent deserved no more than an apology in my opinion, and assurances it wouldn't happen again. All said and done, for what we know, the officer was just doing his job. Someone called and complained that there was a man in the park walking around carrying a gun, the officer responded and most likely felt he was doing his job. Was he over zealous yes, should he have known the law, yes. Does the Master Seargent deserve an apology, yes. And that's all in my opinion.
Someone expressed the opinion on this thread that maybe they deserve a settlement for pain and suffering following a car accident. If they are disabled and can not work, then yes, I agree they do deserve a settlement. Do they deserve having their wages paid while they can't work and have their car fixed yes. Do they deserve to get money because they had a stiff neck for 2 weeks and couldn't go on their evening walk with their little sweetie, simply because someone ACCIDENTLY hit the gas when they should have hit the brake. ABSOLUTELY NOT. It was an ACCIDENT, period. That and the feeling the Master Seargent should be paid simply for having a gun pointed at him, those are LIBERAL sentiments, expecting something for nothing. Just my honest opinion, and when the country started feeling that way it has become a slippery slope, a slippery slope indeed.
If what was stated yesterday in this thread that the "victim" in this did indeed turn over the $15k to the Bellingham PD, kudo's to him. Maybe that, coupled with your opinion, was his agenda on obtaining a settlement only to be turned over for 2A educational purposes.
Sadly enough, none of this will really do squat to educate what is an insanely liberal city in Whatcom County. :(
I have not, and refuse to, read the comments in the article linked in this thread. I can just imagine that the posters are all kinds of up in arms over this and are screaming for 2A reform in the city of Bellingham.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 15, 2013, 10:29:54 AM
Your taxes are covering the $15k this guy is getting because of a power tripping cop... does he really deserve a payment of any kind? Cop deserves to lose his job for unjustifiably pulling on a lawful citizen, I agree 100%. But the guy getting $15k out of a municipal fund for the idiot with a badge's actions? :bdid:
Ambulance-chaser lawyers are ruining this country. We are the laughing stock of the world when it comes to frivolous lawsuits. This $15K wasn't paid to compensate for fear, it was paid for his signature to guarantee he won't sue. Think about that - the city of BHam paid $15K to some guy who suffered no actual loss. $15K just to keep it out of the courts. And smart people seem to think this is ok? Sad. :bash:
OK, you asked for it. Anyone who expects something for nothing. Which in my experience is exactly what happened here, imho. The Master Seargent deserved no more than an apology in my opinion, and assurances it wouldn't happen again.
Respectfully, see if you can follow this feedback loop. I am talking in the aggregate here (not any individual cases that one might disagree about).
Police or public officials commit egregious errors -> lawsuits/settlements cost mount -> government services decline or taxes go up -> voters/taxpayers get irked and vote to change or correct problem -> no more egregious errors.
Like it or not, that's the way our system works to correct systematic errors such as this in the OP. Understanding this or supporting this at some level is not liberalism. Rather, it is liberty loving.
Should the lady whose parents were killed by the repeat DUI offender, who was put in the hospital, and whose newborn baby suffered life-threatening injuries get $45 million? My opinion is that that sum is on the low side, if it is proven that the municipality failed to perform its duties re: ensuring that the repeat DUI offender completed his sentencing requirements.
If the cops shoot your dog on a mistaken identity no-knock warrant, do you think that a simple apology should suffice? Are simple replacement costs (compensatory damages) sufficient to make you whole? Will such low costs prevent future occurences? Or should we allow punitive damages (which is likely what formed the basis of the settlement in OP), so that this feedback loop operates as intended to reign in an out of control police state?
These past few years has opened my eyes to the realization about how much I don't want to (or my children to have to) live in an all powerful police state, regardless of whether I agree with the politics of the people currently at the helm. Liberty loving, not liberalism.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 15, 2013, 10:38:50 AM
I must admit, I am quite surprised at the overwhelmingly liberal point of view almost every single poster has on this thread. Really, really surprised, and saddened. :(
I can't wait to hear what you're calling a liberal point of view. This should be good. Please be more specific. Thanks. :tup:
OK, you asked for it. Anyone who expects something for nothing. Which in my experience is exactly what happened here, imho. The Master Seargent deserved no more than an apology in my opinion, and assurances it wouldn't happen again. All said and done, for what we know, the officer was just doing his job. Someone called and complained that there was a man in the park walking around carrying a gun, the officer responded and most likely felt he was doing his job. Was he over zealous yes, should he have known the law, yes. Does the Master Seargent deserve an apology, yes. And that's all in my opinion.
Someone expressed the opinion on this thread that maybe they deserve a settlement for pain and suffering following a car accident. If they are disabled and can not work, then yes, I agree they do deserve a settlement. Do they deserve having their wages paid while they can't work and have their car fixed yes. Do they deserve to get money because they had a stiff neck for 2 weeks and couldn't go on their evening walk with their little sweetie, simply because someone ACCIDENTLY hit the gas when they should have hit the brake. ABSOLUTELY NOT. It was an ACCIDENT, period. That and the feeling the Master Seargent should be paid simply for having a gun pointed at him, those are LIBERAL sentiments, expecting something for nothing. Just my honest opinion, and when the country started feeling that way it has become a slippery slope, a slippery slope indeed.
I guess we view what liberal is quite differently. I think of liberals as being in support of big government and allowing government intrusion into their lives because they think we need that. Being a conservative, I view the unnecessary intrusion of our government into our lives as just that - an unnecessary intrusion. In addition, this police officer in effect, threatened the life of a citizen by pointing his loaded weapon at him and it was done for no good reason other than lack of proper training. As has been stated before, awards serve not only to compensate the victim (and the Master Sergeant was absolutely a victim), but serves to demonstrate to the members of our police and the rest of our government that they need to respond to us, their bosses, appropriately. I guarantee that this department will change it's training because of this puny award. They need to before a mistake like this results in an unnecessary death.
As far as your comments about car accidents are concerned, I don't even know what to say except that accidents caused by a driver's error should result in compensation for whatever is truly lost by the injured party. When you make a mistake and get to work late, even though it's a mistake, you pay for your mistake. When you accidentally run into someone and cause them pain and it's clearly your fault, you should pay for their car, their medical, their lost wages, their future medical, as well as pain and suffering when applicable. If I run into a tree, that's on me. If you cause me to be injured, that's on you. I don't think I deserve $5M for a sore neck, but I also think that someone who suffers terribly deserves to be compensated fairly.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 15, 2013, 10:49:29 AM
Post by: turkeyfeather on August 15, 2013, 10:59:11 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 15, 2013, 11:01:00 AM
Post by: turkeyfeather on August 15, 2013, 11:02:57 AM
You know the two instances are completely different. You're baiting. I'm not biting. Have a nice day.On the contrary I dont think they are that different. But we'll just leave it at that then.
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on August 16, 2013, 08:52:54 AM
So having a gun pointed at you point blank not knowing if you will be alive if 5 five seconds because there is an almost brain dead thug at the other end of the gun is nothing? A liberal would say just what you did sticking up for the guberbent thugs. At least we all know if your life is ever threatened all the guy has to do is say sorry later and it will be all better.....
That's my stance.. 'Sorry' isn't good enough. Grand kudo's to the guy if he did actually donate the money back into the training program. His point was made. He got his apology I guess. LEO or not.. (and I wouldn't stereotype any of them as being brain dead), Point a gun at me for no good reason, I'll likely become combatant. I think most people would.
-Steve
Post by: GoldTip on August 16, 2013, 09:07:28 AM
I must admit, I am quite surprised at the overwhelmingly liberal point of view almost every single poster has on this thread. Really, really surprised, and saddened. :(
I can't wait to hear what you're calling a liberal point of view. This should be good. Please be more specific. Thanks. :tup:
OK, you asked for it. Anyone who expects something for nothing. Which in my experience is exactly what happened here, imho. The Master Seargent deserved no more than an apology in my opinion, and assurances it wouldn't happen again. All said and done, for what we know, the officer was just doing his job. Someone called and complained that there was a man in the park walking around carrying a gun, the officer responded and most likely felt he was doing his job. Was he over zealous yes, should he have known the law, yes. Does the Master Seargent deserve an apology, yes. And that's all in my opinion.
Someone expressed the opinion on this thread that maybe they deserve a settlement for pain and suffering following a car accident. If they are disabled and can not work, then yes, I agree they do deserve a settlement. Do they deserve having their wages paid while they can't work and have their car fixed yes. Do they deserve to get money because they had a stiff neck for 2 weeks and couldn't go on their evening walk with their little sweetie, simply because someone ACCIDENTLY hit the gas when they should have hit the brake. ABSOLUTELY NOT. It was an ACCIDENT, period. That and the feeling the Master Seargent should be paid simply for having a gun pointed at him, those are LIBERAL sentiments, expecting something for nothing. Just my honest opinion, and when the country started feeling that way it has become a slippery slope, a slippery slope indeed.
So having a gun pointed at you point blank not knowing if you will be alive if 5 five seconds because there is an almost brain dead thug at the other end of the gun is nothing? A liberal would say just what you did sticking up for the guberbent thugs. At least we all know if your life is ever threatened all the guy has to do is say sorry later and it will be all better.....
Well I guess having a gun pointed at them is just simply more traumatic for some people than it is for others. Maybe I just have a single feeling, and this wouldn't have hurt it. Maybe I just think that if there is no blood there is no foul. Maybe I've just put myself in enough situations in life where having a gun pointed at me for 5 seconds, although certainly something that would get my attention, it is not something I would accept money for, especially from someone who believed they were simply doing their job, and I walk away uninjured. Guess I was just raised different, my Daddy is 66 years old this fall, and I'm 47. But he would still get up outta his chair and slap the ever loving pi$$ right outta me if I told him this story happened to me and it hurt my little feelings so bad I made them pay me 15k for it.
If the story that the Master Seargent returned the money for assurance of more training or gave it to a charity of some sort is true, well then he just earned a lot more respect from me.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 16, 2013, 09:22:58 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 16, 2013, 09:44:00 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 16, 2013, 09:50:27 AM
Post by: GoldTip on August 16, 2013, 10:26:26 AM
And, I have a strong suspicion that having a gun pointed at you is NOT nothing. I would imagine that it could be quite traumatic and for some could be tantamount to a near-death experience. Near-death experiences often change someone's entire life and not always for the better. Sorry GT, but I can't agree with you at all regarding this incident. Your cavalier attitude would suggest that, like me, you've never had a gun pointed at you in anger. :dunno:
And your assumption would be wrong.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 16, 2013, 10:28:49 AM
Post by: GoldTip on August 16, 2013, 10:31:32 AM
OK, now your baiting, and if there is one thing I've learned about an internet argument, well I've never learned anything from an internet argument. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 16, 2013, 10:35:26 AM
Post by: csaaphill on August 18, 2013, 03:30:39 AM
been once by my dad scared the bejeezes out of me.
Good for the guy though punish cops when they step out of line maybe hear less abuse cases about them :yeah:
hope he donates to NRA or Gun owners of America.
Question werent the SS and NAZIS just doing their Jobs when forcing Jews into gas chambers?
How many times in History has that been used? They are/were just doing thier Job? Probably more times than most want to hear or admit. :bash:
Post by: steen on August 18, 2013, 02:55:47 PM
This may be way off the situation similarities but take for example I was riding my horse with my daughter's friend and her friend who has only ridden a few times in her life. I gave her the most reliable horse with the other girl on the second most reliable and me the least. All horses are well trained and have handled a lot of situations very well. We were riding in private berry land (not mine) and They were crop dusting with a helo. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect that copter to land within a bow shot of us and our horses nor the instincts that came over me in this situation. The horses handled it real well till was very close to the ground then they turned to run. I saw the inexperienced girl in a slow canter and I decided in that split second that my horse was not following, period! Either I was going down or he was. I one reined him hoping to get him off balance and possibly on the ground but he is sooo athletic he was able to hop sideways with his head bended and I ended up on the ground holding onto the reins, again so he couldn't run, found myself under his belly (he never even stepped on me). I got up dusted myself off, got back on and rode past the landed copter with the blades still turning (wanted the horses to get by unspooked) and the pilot checking on us to make sure we were fine. The other two riders stopped their horses 30 feet ahead of me both not experienced riders. Now if my horse would have run more could have been on the ground. I'm glad it was me.
Now the lawsuits that "could have" happened..... I could sue the berry growers for being "scared to death" or the helo owner, or the pilot. I could have been sued by the riders I invited for their scare. Now how stupid would that be. I have a beautiful place to ride 5 minutes from my house permissioned by the berry growers. Since I love riding there I'd never even think of suing them and hope I'd never get sued by the people I take riding (I do a lot) Next time I see a copter I will turn my horse, not try to get a picture and go in the opposite direction (If I'd a known quick enough I would have). It turned out good and my horses got to experience something new. You never know what you may encounter on a horse I guess money is not that important tome and I'd feel guilty spending that kind of money and I would not pride myself on what I purchased with that kind of money. Totally different situation but Lawsuits don't benefit anyone really, except the lawyers willing to talk someone into suing. It just raises the cost of living for everyone
Post by: ICEMAN on August 18, 2013, 05:54:54 PM
Post by: NWHydroprint on August 18, 2013, 08:02:19 PM
Post by: csaaphill on August 21, 2013, 02:05:35 AM
Why shouldn't he get 15K if it would of been some one else besides a cop he would have had the right to defend himself with deadly force.:yeah:
Post by: Special T on August 21, 2013, 08:06:50 AM