Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: Thefisherman83 on August 14, 2013, 11:35:50 AM

Title: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: Thefisherman83 on August 14, 2013, 11:35:50 AM: Ok, I have heard the countless debates over the eye guards on deer, but until recently I have never heard of anyone that did not count them on elk?!? I am chalking this up to some strange Pe Ell type of math, but it got me curious if there were any others out there that did not count them? I can kind of understand not counting them on deer because it can be very misleading when describing an animal, but when somebody says "nice" and "4-point" when describing an elk I automatically assume Rag-horn. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: TheHunt on August 14, 2013, 11:39:57 AM: Many of my fathers and grand fathers friends as well as them never counted the eye guard or browtine as points on elk. A friend of the family show me his 6X6 and his 7X7 he shot in the 50's as well as many pictures which he never counted either of those points.

It floored me for sure...
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: sirmissalot on August 14, 2013, 11:43:10 AM: Elk almost always have brows, unless they busted off or it's a freak, so its just part of the horn and is always counted. Mule deer and blacktail it can go either way. Whitetails almost always have brows as well, which is why I think a lot of you eastsiders count them as points, along with being able to count them as a legal point in point restriction areas.

I do know one person that I have heard count elk points and not include the brows. It's weird.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: grundy53 on August 14, 2013, 12:16:52 PM: No one I hunt with counts them. Nor anyone that I know that hunts elk where I hunt elk.

sent from my typewriter
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: vandeman17 on August 14, 2013, 12:19:34 PM: I have never heard of them not being counted, unless they are under an inch which pretty much would never happen. So if you see a big "6x6" including eye guards that means you would call that a 4x4?
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: Dhoey07 on August 14, 2013, 12:22:59 PM: They're either a spike, raghorn or count all the points if its a "normal" bull :twocents:
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: coachcw on August 14, 2013, 12:23:24 PM: the G1 = eye guard =Point !
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: Thefisherman83 on August 14, 2013, 12:31:52 PM: Quote from: fckfords07 on August 14, 2013, 12:22:59 PM
They're either a spike, raghorn or count all the points if its a "normal" bull :twocents:

I like it, but that brings up the debate on when is a bull no longer a raghorn? I am just baffled how somebody can call a nice 5x5 a "3 point" like stated before All elk with normal antler growth have eye guards. therefore they should be counted.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: swwaoutdoorsman on August 14, 2013, 02:36:23 PM: Raghorn in my book is small spindly horned bull points do not matter. Have seen 5 and 6 pts that'd I'd consider rag horns. (counting the eye guards) man this could get complicated... Lots of factors. Roosevelt or rocky. I hunt Roosevelt's mostly coastal. So to make it a bit simpler anything around 200" or larger would break from being a rag horn.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: bowhunterty on August 14, 2013, 02:42:21 PM: I remember growing up hunting the coast, my dad and his buddies would refer to elk like a 4pt with double eye guards. Or 3 pt with double eye guards. Maybe a roosevelt thing or just and old saying.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: grundy53 on August 14, 2013, 03:26:27 PM: Quote from: vandeman17 on August 14, 2013, 12:19:34 PM
I have never heard of them not being counted, unless they are under an inch which pretty much would never happen. So if you see a big "6x6" including eye guards that means you would call that a 4x4?
We would call it a 4 point.

sent from my typewriter
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: grundy53 on August 14, 2013, 03:27:29 PM: Quote from: bowhunterty on August 14, 2013, 02:42:21 PM
I remember growing up hunting the coast, my dad and his buddies would refer to elk like a 4pt with double eye guards. Or 3 pt with double eye guards. Maybe a roosevelt thing or just and old saying.
That's how I was brought up counting them.

sent from my typewriter
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: 724wd on August 14, 2013, 04:26:39 PM: Quote from: grundy53 on August 14, 2013, 03:27:29 PM
Quote from: bowhunterty on August 14, 2013, 02:42:21 PM
I remember growing up hunting the coast, my dad and his buddies would refer to elk like a 4pt with double eye guards. Or 3 pt with double eye guards. Maybe a roosevelt thing or just and old saying.
That's how I was brought up counting them.

sent from my typewriter

AND THAT'S WRONG!!!! :chuckle: :tup:
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: coachcw on August 14, 2013, 04:30:22 PM: I'd say a rag horn bull east side would be a 250ish six point or smaller . I'd not really call any five point a mature bull inless he,s just a stud five or some kind of freak . there's nothing wrong with shooting a 250 class bull but it's not a fully mature bull . most out fitters wont call them rag horns because they guide plenty of hunters to them . any bull can be considered a thropy in the eye of the beholder .
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: JPhelps on August 14, 2013, 04:51:05 PM: There is something weird about these folks in West Lewis County / East Pacific county where they don't count eyeguards/browtines. They are always 2 point with doubles (4x4), 3 point with singles (4x4), 3 point with doubles (5x5), etc.... :dunno:
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: TommyH on August 14, 2013, 06:47:06 PM: Most all bull elk over 3 years old have double eye gaurds (My last years 4 point bull only had single eye gaurds) :chuckle: Around my neck of the woods all points on one side is counted.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: Coastal_native on August 14, 2013, 07:02:46 PM: Quote from: swwaoutdoorsman on August 14, 2013, 02:36:23 PM
Raghorn in my book is small spindly horned bull points do not matter. Have seen 5 and 6 pts that'd I'd consider rag horns. (counting the eye guards) man this could get complicated... Lots of factors. Roosevelt or rocky. I hunt Roosevelt's mostly coastal. So to make it a bit simpler anything around 200" or larger would break from being a rag horn.

I like your standards. Some of the older guys I know refer to my 270"+ bulls as ..."what herd bulls? You mean those little rag horns of yours?"
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: 6x6in6 on August 14, 2013, 07:16:01 PM: If this was real, and if it carried over to scoreable point situation, I would have only one 300+ bull.

I like the score the brow tines version. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: grundy53 on August 14, 2013, 08:34:31 PM: Quote from: JPhelps on August 14, 2013, 04:51:05 PM
There is something weird about these folks in West Lewis County / East Pacific county where they don't count eyeguards/browtines. They are always 2 point with doubles (4x4), 3 point with singles (4x4), 3 point with doubles (5x5), etc.... :dunno:

Says someone from Western Lewis county.... lol

sent from my typewriter
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: JPhelps on August 14, 2013, 09:28:22 PM: Quote from: grundy53 on August 14, 2013, 08:34:31 PM
Quote from: JPhelps on August 14, 2013, 04:51:05 PM
There is something weird about these folks in West Lewis County / East Pacific county where they don't count eyeguards/browtines. They are always 2 point with doubles (4x4), 3 point with singles (4x4), 3 point with doubles (5x5), etc.... :dunno:

Says someone from Western Lewis county.... lol

sent from my typewriter

I know. I was brainwashed growing up. I have now converted to the way the rest of the world counts elk horns.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: grundy53 on August 14, 2013, 09:32:44 PM: Quote from: JPhelps on August 14, 2013, 09:28:22 PM
Quote from: grundy53 on August 14, 2013, 08:34:31 PM
Quote from: JPhelps on August 14, 2013, 04:51:05 PM
There is something weird about these folks in West Lewis County / East Pacific county where they don't count eyeguards/browtines. They are always 2 point with doubles (4x4), 3 point with singles (4x4), 3 point with doubles (5x5), etc.... :dunno:

Says someone from Western Lewis county.... lol

sent from my typewriter

I know. I was brainwashed growing up. I have now converted to the way the rest of the world counts elk horns.
Tough habit to kick though... maybe someday I'll convert.

sent from my typewriter
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: Sliverslinger on August 14, 2013, 09:42:38 PM: Quote from: JPhelps on August 14, 2013, 09:28:22 PM
Quote from: grundy53 on August 14, 2013, 08:34:31 PM
Quote from: JPhelps on August 14, 2013, 04:51:05 PM
There is something weird about these folks in West Lewis County / East Pacific county where they don't count eyeguards/browtines. They are always 2 point with doubles (4x4), 3 point with singles (4x4), 3 point with doubles (5x5), etc.... :dunno:

Says someone from Western Lewis county.... lol

sent from my typewriter

I know. I was brainwashed growing up. I have now converted to the way the rest of the world counts elk horns.

I grew up on the verge of West Lewis county and it was similar. All descriptions of bulls included the number of points and the number of eyeguards. So your biggest bulls would be called a "four point- double eyeguard." Of course, this never left the option for describing bulls with uneven numbers of points on each side. For everyone I know now, it's pretty much the total number of points on ones side by the total number on the other (i.e. 6 by 6, 3 by 4, 7 by 8, etc...).
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: Ingwe on August 14, 2013, 09:51:08 PM: I remember growing up in the 60's when I saw a dead elk, nobody counted eye guards. It was a 3 point with doubles. Most people I know that are my age still don't count eye guards. Maybe it is a Roosevelt thing as all we ever saw was elk from the west side. But it does get confusing when talking to younger people or people hunting Rocky mountain elk. We always thought elk were in general like deer, spike first year,2 point second year, 3 point third year but double eye guards on 2 point and 3 point. And I am from Western Lewis county with many relatives and friends from coast and Olympic peninsula.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: billythekidrock on August 14, 2013, 09:56:07 PM: Do a search on this topic. It has come up a couple times.
2 over 2 = 4pt
4 over 2 = 6pt
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: smartazz171 on August 15, 2013, 08:29:40 AM: Quote from: coachcw on August 14, 2013, 12:23:24 PM
the G1 = eye guard =Point !
:yeah:
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 15, 2013, 08:36:19 AM: "3 pt with double eyeguards" is way easier to say than "5 pt"
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: bobcat on August 15, 2013, 08:38:53 AM: Quote from: Jonathan_S on August 15, 2013, 08:36:19 AM
"3 pt with double eyeguards" is way easier to say than "5 pt"

Really?

Seven syllables is easier than only two? :dunno:
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: Thefisherman83 on August 15, 2013, 08:41:36 AM: Quote from: bobcat on August 15, 2013, 08:38:53 AM
Quote from: Jonathan_S on August 15, 2013, 08:36:19 AM
"3 pt with double eyeguards" is way easier to say than "5 pt"

Really?

Seven syllables is easier than only two? :dunno:

Makes sense :chuckle:
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 15, 2013, 08:44:25 AM: My post was oozing with sarcasm. Is "oozing" a banned word?
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: bobcat on August 15, 2013, 08:58:05 AM: Well, it doesn't appear to be. If it was, it would have automatically been changed to *censored*.

Sorry I didn't catch the sarcasm.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: headshot5 on August 15, 2013, 09:13:08 AM: Luckily, I understand both Western Hillbilly, and East of Western Hillbilly. I don't really have a preference. I understand both counts.

I do like when someone doesn't call out eye guards at all. Example in a 3 pt min area for elk, and someone tells you "so and so (name) got a nice 2pt, bull" People give out some funny looks.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: luvmystang67 on August 15, 2013, 10:13:45 AM: For the sake of argument, what do you call the deer that I posted below? I would call it a "4x3 with eyegards" or a "4 point" if referring to it quickly. Legally its a "5x4". I think most people who hunt blacktail would call it a 4x3 with eyeguards.

I feel like SW wa elk are along the same line of thought. This also goes back to the old rule WDFW where eyeguards had to be 4" to count as a point and the non-eyeguards only had to be 1". Therefore eyeguards were not created equal, even by the state.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: billythekidrock on August 15, 2013, 10:31:49 AM: 4x3
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: Curly on August 15, 2013, 10:33:59 AM: I believe that not counting an elk's eye guards stems from trying to be consistent with how it is counted on blacktails.

It makes a lot of sense for deer (at least blacktails and muleys) to not count eye guards. So, I could see how deer hunters then started counting elk the same way. :twocents:

I would never call a deer, like luvmystang67 posted, as a 5x4.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: billythekidrock on August 15, 2013, 10:50:11 AM: Quote from: Curly on August 15, 2013, 10:33:59 AM

I would never call a deer, like luvmystang67 posted, as a 5x4.

I agree.
I think a guys "blacktail" card would have to be pulled if he called this a 7x6... or worse yet, a 13 pointer.

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hunt101.com%2Fdata%2F500%2Fmedium%2F1443webIMG_2019.jpg&hash=ea6ad4dba537e91175e684b5368bb7ee684ddca0)
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: BiggLuke on August 15, 2013, 11:04:56 AM: We've always called them what the "Gamies" would count them as.
In other words, every legal point.
i.e. 4X5 not 3X4 with eye guards.... :twocents:
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: boneaddict on August 15, 2013, 11:08:54 AM: Kinda like a push up bra I guess.........
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: headshot5 on August 15, 2013, 11:23:22 AM: Quote
Kinda like a push up bra I guess.........

Haha. Good work bone. My first good laugh of the day! :tup:
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: luvmystang67 on August 15, 2013, 12:56:30 PM: Quote from: BiggLuke on August 15, 2013, 11:04:56 AM
We've always called them what the "Gamies" would count them as.
In other words, every legal point.
i.e. 4X5 not 3X4 with eye guards.... :twocents:

The only time I'd call it what a gamie would call it is if they were the ones asking, or I was in a 3pt or better area and had shot a 2 point with barely legal eyeguards, so I didn't give anyone the wrong idea.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: CedarPants on August 15, 2013, 01:09:27 PM: I always crack up when I see people knocking others for counting eye guards, as if the effort they put in to harvest the animal is somehow now negated because they called an eyeguard a point. I would think the skill, patience, and knowledge of the outdoors would be a better measuring stick of one's hunting prowess than whether or not they called an eyeguard a point or not.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on August 15, 2013, 01:55:32 PM: I count them. If you don't consider them to be 'countable' be sure to tell the guy scoring your deer or elk to leave those inches out. :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: BiggLuke on August 15, 2013, 02:03:11 PM: Quote from: WAcoyotehunter on August 15, 2013, 01:55:32 PM
I count them. If you don't consider them to be 'countable' be sure to tell the guy scoring your deer or elk to leave those inches out. :chuckle: :chuckle:
:yeah:

lol... exactly. BTR, and Boone and Crocket count 'em.
Title: Re: Eye guards on Elk?
Post by: smartazz171 on August 16, 2013, 12:40:11 PM: Quote from: BiggLuke on August 15, 2013, 02:03:11 PM
Quote from: WAcoyotehunter on August 15, 2013, 01:55:32 PM
I count them. If you don't consider them to be 'countable' be sure to tell the guy scoring your deer or elk to leave those inches out. :chuckle: :chuckle:
:yeah:

lol... exactly. BTR, and Boone and Crocket count 'em.

:chuckle: :brew: I'm having them count for me. I love how we as hunters worry about "score" so much and we accept Boone and Crocket's scores but now we have an argument on eyeguards? "Ya they scored my 330" bull correctly! Wait, who are these crazy hunters who think an EYEGAURD is a legit point! wow thats a stretch!" :o

CedarPants you got it! :tup: