Post by: RAMSFAN on October 17, 2013, 07:38:32 PM
Post by: coachcw on October 17, 2013, 07:41:52 PM
Post by: RAMSFAN on October 17, 2013, 07:45:20 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on October 17, 2013, 07:49:10 PM
Post by: sled on October 17, 2013, 07:49:32 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 17, 2013, 07:49:54 PM
I had a group of 4 walk by at one point. It was just crazyShouldn't be a surprise with a 3 point restriction, thats about all that is left. :dunno:
Post by: Timberstalker on October 17, 2013, 07:50:34 PM
All I Saw Were Spikes, And 2Pts This Year In 340. 8 Days In The Woods. Should Be Good Next Year!
Maybe. Might just be bigger 2 PTS.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 17, 2013, 08:09:56 PM
I've been told over and over that antler restrictions can't or won't change the gene makeup of a herd, but the proof is in the pudding.
Post by: herdbull33 on October 17, 2013, 08:21:30 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on October 17, 2013, 08:27:47 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 17, 2013, 08:30:04 PM
I have to laugh at this thread. Not because I think you guys are wrong when it comes to antler restrictions, but because elsewhere on the site guys are hot to trot about the 4 pt restriction in 117 and 121.Big difference between mule deer and whitetail.
I've been told over and over that antler restrictions can't or won't change the gene makeup of a herd, but the proof is in the pudding.
Post by: rtspring on October 17, 2013, 08:44:09 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on October 17, 2013, 08:50:53 PM
Post by: mossback91 on October 17, 2013, 09:00:07 PM
Stopped counting the next day :chuckle:
Havent really been back out since then but I'm sure they are still there :(
Post by: fastdam on October 17, 2013, 09:40:04 PM
Post by: kramman on October 18, 2013, 05:12:14 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on October 18, 2013, 07:54:19 AM
I have to laugh at this thread. Not because I think you guys are wrong when it comes to antler restrictions, but because elsewhere on the site guys are hot to trot about the 4 pt restriction in 117 and 121.
I've been told over and over that antler restrictions can't or won't change the gene makeup of a herd, but the proof is in the pudding.
Oh c'mon. You can't seriously think that whitetails could ever be bred to not grow 4 points.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 18, 2013, 12:34:34 PM
Oh c'mon. You can't seriously think that whitetails could ever be bred to not grow 4 points.
Did you think mule deer could?
Post by: buckfvr on October 18, 2013, 12:54:01 PM
Oh c'mon. You can't seriously think that whitetails could ever be bred to not grow 4 points.
Did you think mule deer could?
How about science to support that ? I think its because there are so many more young bucks since they arent being harvested, and then you throw in a few on the down side......
Post by: boneaddict on October 18, 2013, 01:00:04 PM
Two points have been around since life. You see only groups of 2 points because as Phool stated, everything else was shot! Now imagine no regulations...then you wouldn't see anything. :chuckle:
Genetics....are 50/50. Damn all those does packing 2 point genes. Better kill them all too. :chuckle:
I do think to optimize thing they should have two point permits just like they do in other states. I bet there would be someone on here willing to drop another 8 bucks to apply for that tag. :chuckle:
Compairing mule deer to whitetails REALLY?
Post by: boneaddict on October 18, 2013, 01:03:11 PM
Quote
Havent really been back out since then but I'm sure they are still there :(
Probably a good 30% of them aren't because of all the idiots blasting at whatever they see
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 18, 2013, 01:05:03 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 18, 2013, 01:09:35 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 18, 2013, 01:14:46 PM
YES, its not optimal, because if one of those is a slick 2, he might spread his genes, mixing 50/50 with a doe, that is if he isn't hit by a car, die of disease, eating by a cat, eatin by a wolf or killed because some lazy SOB slob hunter shoots a rack, because it just has to have a point. If all that happens(he survives).....he might make another baby 2 point and dang it, the world will come to an end.
the solution.......KILL THEM ALL or possibly add another statistic in there that might resolve the possible problem. Say another permit, or youth or senior hunt.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 18, 2013, 01:15:45 PM
and you suggest that the average muledeer is born with 2 points and 2 points only and that all these three and 4 points were just that when they hit the ground, and that possible that herd of 6 two points will grow nothing but two points for the rest of their lives.
I suggest nothing of the kind. I suggest that hunting only a certain conformation of antler can make a different conformation dominant in a herd.
Post by: boneaddict on October 18, 2013, 01:18:39 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on October 18, 2013, 01:19:36 PM
or could it be skewed because of age....... There is more probablility that those 6 two points will be branched next year than they will still be a slick 2.
YES, its not optimal, because if one of those is a slick 2, he might spread his genes, mixing 50/50 with a doe, that is if he isn't hit by a car, die of disease, eating by a cat, eatin by a wolf or killed because some lazy SOB slob hunter shoots a rack, because it just has to have a point. If all that happens(he survives).....he might make another baby 2 point and dang it, the world will come to an end.
the solution.......KILL THEM ALL or possibly add another statistic in there that might resolve the possible problem. Say another permit, or youth or senior hunt.
This is classic......Wow :chuckle:
Post by: boneaddict on October 18, 2013, 01:33:41 PM
Post by: buckfvr on October 18, 2013, 02:00:33 PM
Post by: CHUCK S on October 18, 2013, 02:08:27 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 18, 2013, 02:17:00 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 18, 2013, 02:19:46 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on October 18, 2013, 02:21:29 PM
Three point minimum, four point maximum. I guess there are plenty of bucks that would be a 2x2 at 1.5 years and a 3x4 or 4x4 with an eyeguard or two at 2.5
We could apply this to elk too.
3 pt minimum and 5 pt maximum. But do eyeguards count? :dunno:
You don't see those big Texas ranches and other places where they try to improve their buck antler genetics having hunters kill management bucks (older bucks that don't measure up) for nothing. Evidently they believe they can change the antler confirmation of their deer herds by selective harvest of weak antler gened bucks. They seem to be having success in their endeavors. If that works, the opposite also works. Use your head.
But really, do you think that the best genes are being killed out?
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 18, 2013, 02:44:04 PM
I'm pretty sure Texas' model wont work here, so use your head, preferably comparing apples to apples instead of apples to oranges. I suppose you think AK will have smaller moose because of a 50 inch minimum.
No, Alaska has a two pronged rule. Spike/fork bulls are allowed which is around 40% of the yearling class. This allows 60% (if they aren't illegally shot) to get a few years under their belt breeding before they are legal to take. But another rule allows the taking of bulls under 50" if they have 3 or 4 brow tines on one side. Interesting enough, there has been an increase in the number of bulls with only two brow tines if you can believe the hunters reporting it.
Post by: boneaddict on October 18, 2013, 02:52:18 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv47%2Fboneaddict%2Fbonesbucks%2Flegendbigsm.jpg&hash=206286da68cb49f65c1f80fa9b1e400bea5a271d)
Post by: Ironhead on October 18, 2013, 02:53:34 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 18, 2013, 02:58:54 PM
Post by: bobdog86 on October 18, 2013, 03:10:25 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 18, 2013, 04:09:23 PM
Quote
offer an any buck drawThat's what is already offered. I would suggest offering a two point only draw. (it certainly could be youth or senior) in fact I would encourage that. As of right now I believe any of the permit hunters could bust a two if they wanted. I thought seriously about notching on another big two that I had been watching.
Post by: Timberstalker on October 18, 2013, 04:19:30 PM
Quoteoffer an any buck drawThat's what is already offered. I would suggest offering a two point only draw. (it certainly could be youth or senior) in fact I would encourage that. As of right now I believe any of the permit hunters could bust a two if they wanted. I thought seriously about notching on another big two that I had been watching.
They had 2ptx2pt only permits for a while. I haven't checked but they still may. These were mostly in Whitman County.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on October 18, 2013, 04:45:59 PM
the 3-point regulation is working well and has
increased total buck escapement. Prior to the
implementation of the 3-point restriction in Douglas,
buck escapement was low, estimated between 6-10
bucks:100 does. There are, however, concerns about
the long-term ramifications of poor recruitment of
older age bucks, as it appears most bucks are still being
harvested by 3.5 years of age. Due to the open nature
of this PMU, it is unlikely that age structure truncation
can be avoided under general modern firearms season
structure.
2006 Game Status and Trend Report. We can kill all the antlered bucks with general any buck seasons, or have escapement of sublegal bucks with antler point restrictions. When deer are vulnerable to harvest, general seasons greatly impact population structure. Lots of two points is the result when in open country with nonmigratory deer and lots of roads, with general seasons and 3-point minimum restrictions. This pretty much applies to mule deer in all the units east and south of the Columbia, south of the Spokane and north of the Snake Rivers. Wherever there is open county with open roads on the section lines, even private land ownership can't effectively limit buck harvest.
This is not a bad model, since we (hunters) want general seasons, and many agricultural landowners don't want abundant deer herds.
Post by: boneaddict on October 18, 2013, 06:36:23 PM
Post by: blackmouther on October 18, 2013, 07:29:36 PM
Post by: WA1232 on October 18, 2013, 07:46:14 PM
Post by: James E on October 18, 2013, 07:59:58 PM
Post by: Snakeriver10 on October 18, 2013, 08:18:05 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2013, 06:53:51 AM
I think those two points hanging out with six buddies, are older and wiser 3 points the following season. They are just plain better at hiding and hard to hunt. Every year in the Blues we hunt dang hard to find a 3 point. We head back up during the deer rut, and find some really nice bucks to look at. They were there all season...we only found the 2 points.
That's essentially why I am adamant(personal) about this. I don't get too involved with things, but this is the ONE good thing if any the WDFW did right. To me its most evident with our elk and methow herd. Its easy to tell the elk. Before regulation there were very few branch antlered bulls. Now they are plentiful. For a guy who spends a lot of time out there following these critters year after year, I almost take offense against someone making a casual observation that intends to muck things up.
Post by: JLS on October 19, 2013, 07:40:29 AM
It's like this, if a farmer shot every white faced cow on a ranch year after year, the white face gene will be eliminated.
Except that you're forgetting two things here:
1) Half of the genetics for antlers comes from the does, and is not visibly expressed
and
2) Genetics doesn't have a whole lot of influence as to whether a deer is ever a 2 point. Age and nutrition will play a much larger role in how many points a deer has.
You're simply seeing a larger population in that age class because they are protected.
Post by: rtspring on October 19, 2013, 08:02:14 AM
It's like this, if a farmer shot every white faced cow on a ranch year after year, the white face gene will be eliminated.
Except that you're forgetting two things here:
1) Half of the genetics for antlers comes from the does, and is not visibly expressed
and
2) Genetics doesn't have a whole lot of influence as to whether a deer is ever a 2 point. Age and nutrition will play a much larger role in how many points a deer has.
You're simply seeing a larger population in that age class because they are protected.
I agree, we should be seeing alot of two points. Thats the reason for the 3 pt minimum. Let them eat and they will grow..
Post by: buckfvr on October 19, 2013, 08:03:35 AM
:yike: :chuckle: