Post by: Green Horn on October 24, 2013, 02:02:26 PM
Post by: JLS on October 24, 2013, 02:07:12 PM
Lots of individual factors to consider such as how you hunt, where you hunt, weather when you hunt, etc. I had a lab that I hunted both upland and waterfowl with. This time around I got a German Wirehair because I think he is more suited to the kind of upland hunting I do.
Post by: Stilly bay on October 24, 2013, 02:14:44 PM
Post by: AspenBud on October 24, 2013, 03:29:51 PM
If you hunt upland most, or plan to, do you plan to hunt mostly forest grouse are you planning on hunting chukar, quail, and pheasant in wide open country?
If you want a do-it-all dog the lab is a good choice. Especially if they're mostly going to see time chasing grouse, chasing pheasant, or on the water. Lots of different lines of them bred for any manner of hunting and work. Just be picky and do your homework on the lines they come from as well as who is breeding them. But if you're going to be hunting open terrain a longer ranging pointing dog may be a better bet.
You might want to look into German Wirehairs as well.
I would suggest going to some hunt tests and field trials to get a better feel for what the breeds are about and can do.
Post by: Sportfury on October 24, 2013, 03:33:37 PM
What do you hunt most?
You might want to look into German Wirehairs as well.
I would suggest going to some hunt tests and field trials to get a better feel for what the breeds are about and can do.
:yeah:
I highly second the wirehair. I grew up with labs, have had a shorthair, and been around a bunch of other dogs and I like wirehairs the best.
Post by: AspenBud on October 24, 2013, 03:40:25 PM
Post by: LndShrk on October 24, 2013, 03:40:33 PM
Kinda depends on your hunting needs / wants.
Post by: SnowDog on October 24, 2013, 04:56:43 PM
I know he has some great Lab pups that will be ready to come home just before Christmas.
Cheers!
SD
Post by: NW-GSP on October 24, 2013, 05:08:01 PM
My next dog will be a drathaar.
Post by: Green Horn on October 25, 2013, 07:59:18 AM
Post by: Green Horn on October 25, 2013, 08:08:46 AM
Post by: Blackjaw on October 25, 2013, 08:13:43 AM
Post by: JLS on October 25, 2013, 08:22:32 AM
Post by: Fowlweather25 on October 25, 2013, 08:28:45 AM
Post by: Green Horn on October 25, 2013, 08:36:04 AM
Post by: AspenBud on October 25, 2013, 09:02:13 AM
I would stay away from 90 lbs labs and look for lines that hover between 50-65 lbs.
Also, if you look at pointing labs, run, don't walk, from any pointing lab breeder who sells dogs that need to be "trained" to point. They should have that inclination as much as any Pointer, setter, and so on. There is a lot of snake oil being sold in that corner of the lab world these days. Be selective, there are some good and honest breeders producing them.
FWIW
Post by: LndShrk on October 25, 2013, 09:07:54 AM
Something to think about. If your dog is going to spend 30-90 days of the hunting season actually hunting, particularly if you're going to throw a fair amount of upland hunting into the mix, you would be well advised to look towards proven performance lines. You don't want a dog that can't keep up with that pace and starts to break down half way through.
I would stay away from 90 lbs labs and look for lines that hover between 50-65 lbs.
Also, if you look at pointing labs, run, don't walk, from any pointing lab breeder who sells dogs that need to be "trained" to point. They should have that inclination as much as any Pointer, setter, and so on. There is a lot of snake oil being sold in that corner of the lab world these days. Be selective, there are some good and honest breeders producing them.
FWIW
Care to elaborate on the 90lb labs?
Post by: Bill W on October 25, 2013, 09:23:00 AM
I found a 2 1/2 year old lab that needed a new home and was said "hunted". Echo was a very pretty, well mannered lab but didn't seem to have much fire in her. Later I found out she had a very good nose but didn't get too excited when on the trail of a bird. Her going to sniff grass walk was just slightly less than the "I'm hot on the trail of a bird" trot and hard to tell the difference.
She's dead now but for the record, was a good duck hunter/retriever, excellent, but low key, on quail and pheasants, a very good house dog, and smart and willing to please. She was so smart that I really didn't train her to hunt, she trained me.
The new one is Molly the wild dog and it's a bit harder to train her. We picked up Molly at 6 1/2 weeks old.
You can always get two dogs...or three if you don't get the right one first. Just make sure to get reservations in on your favorite chair should the dogs be housed inside.
Post by: AspenBud on October 25, 2013, 09:47:09 AM
Something to think about. If your dog is going to spend 30-90 days of the hunting season actually hunting, particularly if you're going to throw a fair amount of upland hunting into the mix, you would be well advised to look towards proven performance lines. You don't want a dog that can't keep up with that pace and starts to break down half way through.
I would stay away from 90 lbs labs and look for lines that hover between 50-65 lbs.
Also, if you look at pointing labs, run, don't walk, from any pointing lab breeder who sells dogs that need to be "trained" to point. They should have that inclination as much as any Pointer, setter, and so on. There is a lot of snake oil being sold in that corner of the lab world these days. Be selective, there are some good and honest breeders producing them.
FWIW
Care to elaborate on the 90lb labs?
Bigger dogs tire sooner, they tend to have more problems with bad hips and elbows, and even instances of torn cruciate ligaments seem to go up. The extra weight can also prevent a dog from being smooth on its feet which can screw with its gait and thereby affect its stamina. It does not matter if the weight is muscle or fat, it's weight.
That's not to say people don't successfully use the heavier dogs for long durations, but I think people often confuse drive for athleticism. A driven dog can overcome a lot of physical limitations but eventually that will falter.
But if you're going to use that dog day in and day out for a variety of hunting I wouldn't want to crack 65 lbs. The lighter dog will have less weight to move around which leads to less energy spent, their joints won't be taking as much of a daily pounding which means you might get a few more years of hunting with them, and you'll spend less in food.
There are always exceptions however.
Post by: JLS on October 25, 2013, 09:50:19 AM
Something to think about. If your dog is going to spend 30-90 days of the hunting season actually hunting, particularly if you're going to throw a fair amount of upland hunting into the mix, you would be well advised to look towards proven performance lines. You don't want a dog that can't keep up with that pace and starts to break down half way through.
I would stay away from 90 lbs labs and look for lines that hover between 50-65 lbs.
Also, if you look at pointing labs, run, don't walk, from any pointing lab breeder who sells dogs that need to be "trained" to point. They should have that inclination as much as any Pointer, setter, and so on. There is a lot of snake oil being sold in that corner of the lab world these days. Be selective, there are some good and honest breeders producing them.
FWIW
Care to elaborate on the 90lb labs?
I will because I have one.
If they are a dedicated waterfowl dog, they are awesome. My lab is a very strong swimmer and can really bust some ice if he needs to. He also really shines in deep snow and cattails when we are pheasant hunting. However, he suffers in big CRP and steep hills. The biggest problem I've seen is overheating. No matter how good he is conditioned, he overheats and once he does his performance really drops. Also, his feet take a beating in the rocks because they aren't that big relative to his weight. My GWP has huge paws.
Post by: 87Ford on October 25, 2013, 10:06:51 AM
If they are a dedicated waterfowl dog, they are awesome. My lab is a very strong swimmer and can really bust some ice if he needs to. He also really shines in deep snow and cattails when we are pheasant hunting. However, he suffers in big CRP and steep hills. The biggest problem I've seen is overheating. No matter how good he is conditioned, he overheats and once he does his performance really drops. Also, his feet take a beating in the rocks because they aren't that big relative to his weight. My GWP has huge paws.
This is well put and I agree. My Lab is about 85 lbs and overheating is a problem for him too. He's good for a couple hours of hard hunting in the morning. When it begins to warm up, especially in the early season, he just gets too hot.. Lots of water and an irrigation ditch here and there keeps him going though. I just hunt him accordingly and know when to back off. I will say that he is crazy for pheasants, has an incredible nose, and is an absolute beast in the cattails and brush. He's plenty of dog for me and at times he's hard to keep up with.
Post by: AspenBud on October 25, 2013, 11:08:48 AM
Think of it this way. You can hand the ball to a lineman and he can plow through and get some yards. But you'll have a more productive day if you have Barry Sanders or Ricky Watters running the ball instead.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on October 25, 2013, 11:21:39 AM
I suspect you guys would have a similar problem with them in the woods after a while.
Think of it this way. You can hand the ball to a lineman and he can plow through and get some yards. But you'll have a more productive day if you have Barry Sanders or Ricky Watters running the ball instead.
What kind of dogs do you have and to what level(titled) are they trained?
Post by: MLHSN on October 25, 2013, 11:28:44 AM
Post by: Tman on October 25, 2013, 11:35:14 AM
Post by: 87Ford on October 25, 2013, 11:42:59 AM
I suspect you guys would have a similar problem with them in the woods after a while.
Think of it this way. You can hand the ball to a lineman and he can plow through and get some yards. But you'll have a more productive day if you have Barry Sanders or Ricky Watters running the ball instead.
I understand what you're saying.. I wouldn't describe my big Lab as a "lineman" though. He's more of an Earl Campbell and gets way more than a few yards. He is a beast in the heavy brush and cattails where I like to hunt and heck, after a couple hours of hiking through that crap I need a break too. I guess it depends on your style of hunting. For ducks and phez in the nasty stuff I'll take a big athletic Lab every time..
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 25, 2013, 11:44:45 AM
Post by: Stilly bay on October 25, 2013, 11:46:26 AM
Something to think about. If your dog is going to spend 30-90 days of the hunting season actually hunting, particularly if you're going to throw a fair amount of upland hunting into the mix, you would be well advised to look towards proven performance lines. You don't want a dog that can't keep up with that pace and starts to break down half way through.
I would stay away from 90 lbs labs and look for lines that hover between 50-65 lbs.
Also, if you look at pointing labs, run, don't walk, from any pointing lab breeder who sells dogs that need to be "trained" to point. They should have that inclination as much as any Pointer, setter, and so on. There is a lot of snake oil being sold in that corner of the lab world these days. Be selective, there are some good and honest breeders producing them.
FWIW
Care to elaborate on the 90lb labs?
Bigger dogs tire sooner, they tend to have more problems with bad hips and elbows, and even instances of torn cruciate ligaments seem to go up. The extra weight can also prevent a dog from being smooth on its feet which can screw with its gait and thereby affect its stamina. It does not matter if the weight is muscle or fat, it's weight.
That's not to say people don't successfully use the heavier dogs for long durations, but I think people often confuse drive for athleticism. A driven dog can overcome a lot of physical limitations but eventually that will falter.
But if you're going to use that dog day in and day out for a variety of hunting I wouldn't want to crack 65 lbs. The lighter dog will have less weight to move around which leads to less energy spent, their joints won't be taking as much of a daily pounding which means you might get a few more years of hunting with them, and you'll spend less in food.
There are always exceptions however.
I would agree to certain extent, since anytime you get too faraway from the breed standard things have the potential to unravel.
also I have yet to see a true 90lb lab that was anywhere close to being in shape. Most 90 pounders that I come across are either an exaggeration by the owner or an obese dog that should weigh in at around 70lbs.
A perfectly fit and conditioned lab weighing 90lbs wouldn't be able to keep up with one these little "performance labs" that are popping up everywhere, but then neither would a springer spaniel.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on October 25, 2013, 11:59:31 AM
There are numerous 80lbs field trial dogs which had long very successful careers without sustaining major injuries. Injuries are just as common with small field trial labs as they are their larger counterparts.
"English" show labs typically don't get worked enough to sustain injuries. The field trial dogs are heavily worked year round, day in day out. Injuries happen. Some folks will attest it to bloodlines. Particular lines are claimed to be prone to elbow injuries while others are not. I'm no lab breeder so I don't research it as heavily as my friends who are hard core pedigree almanacs.
I know of many Chessies who never suffered any injuries and were trialed and hunted all their lives. My Male's mother placed in her last field trial at 10 years old and has spent the last two seasons hunting. She's still kicking pushing 13 and 80+lbs. Then again, all good lab and chessie breeders do their research and work towards a long lasting dog by knowing the pedigree and doing hip, eye, elbow, EIC testing diligently on every sire/dam.
Ask around how many pointer folks do it and they'll tell you its' because retriever people inbred all the dogs and caused the problems amongst other varied excuses.
Post by: Stilly bay on October 25, 2013, 12:26:27 PM
again- generalizations with little backing it up.
your examples were 80lb dogs which fall within the standard for males.
Post by: AspenBud on October 25, 2013, 12:38:24 PM
again- generalizations with little backing it up.
your examples were 80lb dogs which fall within the standard for males.
AKC standard for labs...
dogs 65 to 80 pounds; bitches 55 to 70 pounds
Not 90 lbs and up.
Post by: JLS on October 25, 2013, 12:49:35 PM
I suspect you guys would have a similar problem with them in the woods after a while.
Think of it this way. You can hand the ball to a lineman and he can plow through and get some yards. But you'll have a more productive day if you have Barry Sanders or Ricky Watters running the ball instead.
I understand what you're saying.. I wouldn't describe my big Lab as a "lineman" though. He's more of an Earl Campbell and gets way more than a few yards. He is a beast in the heavy brush and cattails where I like to hunt and heck, after a couple hours of hiking through that crap I need a break too. I guess it depends on your style of hunting. For ducks and phez in the nasty stuff I'll take a big athletic Lab every time..
Mine is kinda like Brian Urlacher. Literally. :)
Post by: Fester on October 25, 2013, 12:51:19 PM
Post by: JLS on October 25, 2013, 12:52:17 PM
also I have yet to see a true 90lb lab that was anywhere close to being in shape. Most 90 pounders that I come across are either an exaggeration by the owner or an obese dog that should weigh in at around 70lbs.
At 82 pounds, mine looks more like a Greyhound than a lab. Healthy hunting weight will be about 88 pounds, verified at the vet clinic.
Post by: Stilly bay on October 25, 2013, 01:26:22 PM
Post by: LndShrk on October 25, 2013, 01:34:18 PM
I don't buy the argument that the larger labs get tired faster and have more health issues. Have hunted around labs too long and have seen issues in both styles.
But back to the OP question. For an all around dog assuming some upland game hunting and some waterfowl hunting. My personal choices based on my experiences would be.
1. Chessie (These dogs are not for everyone but are great for upland flushers and top of the chain for waterfowl in my book)
2. Lab (Possibly of the pointing variety) (These dogs are for everyone and will sleep with anyone :chuckle:)
3. Boykin Spaniel (Good all around dog with a great attitude)
4. German Wirehaired Pointer (Good all around dog the ones I have hunted over did not appear to be the most social of dogs 8))
5. Springer Spaniel (Good all around dog again hunted over a few and all have been a pleasure)
Post by: JLS on October 25, 2013, 01:44:01 PM
Post by: Sportfury on October 25, 2013, 03:02:22 PM
How do GWP's do in the summer when it get's eastern WA hot? I'm also juggling between these three breeds. I would like one that can hike with me year around from deep snow to hot summer days.
My GWP does heat up in the hot weather. We were over in eastern WA for the quail and chukar opener and she did great in the morning, but once it hit the the high 50's and 60's it was to hot for her (with what we were doing) and she started hitting the canals. If we are around water when it is hot she will be in it. My preference is to wait until colder weather to hunt her hard. Give her some snow on the ground and she is happy as a clam. I have taken her on hikes with me up off the 70 road out of greenwater during summer weather and up mountain biking in the Pac Forest in Eatonville and she does fine. Of course I watch her and make sure that I always have water or have a water source that I can take her to and if it is super hot (80's or 90's) that we take a lot of breaks. I think with any dog that it is the owner's responsibility to make sure their dog does not overheat. When you hear about dogs dieing from overheating it wasn't the dogs fault.
Post by: LndShrk on October 25, 2013, 03:04:15 PM
How do GWP's do in the summer when it get's eastern WA hot? I'm also juggling between these three breeds. I would like one that can hike with me year around from deep snow to hot summer days.
My GWP does heat up in the hot weather. We were over in eastern WA for the quail and chukar opener and she did great in the morning, but once it hit the the high 50's and 60's it was to hot for her (with what we were doing) and she started hitting the canals. If we are around water when it is hot she will be in it. My preference is to wait until colder weather to hunt her hard. Give her some snow on the ground and she is happy as a clam. I have taken her on hikes with me up off the 70 road out of greenwater during summer weather and up mountain biking in the Pac Forest in Eatonville and she does fine. Of course I watch her and make sure that I always have water or have a water source that I can take her to and if it is super hot (80's or 90's) that we take a lot of breaks. I think with any dog that it is the owner's responsibility to make sure their dog does not overheat. When you hear about dogs dieing from overheating it wasn't the dogs fault.
:yeah:
and hypothermia.. :tup:
Post by: AspenBud on October 25, 2013, 03:14:15 PM
Post by: JJD on October 27, 2013, 08:57:32 AM
I think that most of the hunting breeds have good qualities.
Something I would look into today, were I in the market for another Lab is EIC (exercise induced collapse). It's getting to be more of an issue in labs and AKC wishes to ignore it for the most part. I had a Lab with it years ago, but the condition did not have a name then. I believe that the U of Minnesota had a genetic marker all but identified when their school of vet medicine ran out of funding for the program. EIC is not an out of shape dog who's been over worked.
Google; Exercise induced collapse or hit
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=559257 (http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=559257)
to understand what it is and ask your breeder about it and if they or any of the pups they have produced. Also jump on web sites like this and ask if anyone has a pup from a prospective breeder with the symptoms of EIC.
U of M web site, but I believe the site is old and they are not offering the testing any longer, but could be wrong on that point.
http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/eic/home.html (http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/eic/home.html)
In most cases, the purchase price of a good hunting dog will be the least expensive part of ownership.
And before anyone jumps in my feces, there are certainly other health issues everyone purchasing a new pup needs to look into.
Post by: Sportfury on October 27, 2013, 07:25:17 PM
Interesting, seems most of the "what dog should I get" threads are carbon copies of most of the others.
I think that most of the hunting breeds have good qualities.
JJD you hit the nail on the head... it usually goes lab, lab, lab, gwp, brittany, springer, WPG, etc. Any dog is good and as long as it is trained it will get you the birds. The only way for a person to form a true conclusion is to go out and buy the dog themselves. Either that or come on here and get an opinion from one of us... lol.
Post by: mlovely83 on October 27, 2013, 07:49:26 PM
Post by: MLHSN on October 27, 2013, 09:09:52 PM
I have AKC male English Choc. Lab and AKC GSP female. I was considering breeding together. Thoughts?
I would be interested in one from that litter. I'm planning on getting a dog late next year after a move.
Not being extremely experienced with dogs (I've had only one) it seems like a juggling act decision process between all the prior listed breeds. I've finally come to the conclusion that I just want to see what the parents are like most of all. It appears there are great and difficult dogs within any breed.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on October 28, 2013, 08:52:51 AM
Interesting, seems most of the "what dog should I get" threads are carbon copies of most of the others.
I think that most of the hunting breeds have good qualities.
Something I would look into today, were I in the market for another Lab is EIC (exercise induced collapse). It's getting to be more of an issue I labs and AKC wishes to ignore it for the most part. I had a Lab with it years ago, but the condition did not have a name then. I believe that the U of Minnesota had a genetic marker all but identified when their school of vet medicine ran out of funding for the program. EIC is not an out of shape dog who's been over worked.
Google; Exercise induced collapse or hit
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=559257 (http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=559257)
to understand what it is and ask your breeder about it and if they or any of the pups they have produced. Also jump on web sites like this and ask if anyone has a pup from a prospective breeder with the symptoms of EIC.
U of M web site, but I believe the site is old and they are not offering the testing any longer, but could be wrong on that point.
http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/eic/home.html (http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/canineneuromuscular/eic/home.html)
In most cases, the purchase price of a good hunting do will be the least expensive part of ownership.
And before anyone jumps in my feces, there are certainly other health issues everyone purchasing a new pup needs to look into.
Everyone tests for it. (at least responsible breeders)Do remember, the AKC is not a breed and health police. That is the responsibility of the breeder and the breeder alone. The AKC is simply a breed registry. They keep pedigrees and record titles.
Post by: washingtonmuley on October 28, 2013, 08:56:08 AM
Post by: wildweeds on October 28, 2013, 08:30:14 PM
I have AKC male English Choc. Lab and AKC GSP female. I was considering breeding together. Thoughts?
Post by: pens fan on October 29, 2013, 05:40:55 AM
Post by: lghtnquik on October 29, 2013, 08:39:15 AM
I have a shorthair and he is a great hunting dog but he cannot handle the cold weather duck hunting.
My next dog will be a drathaar.
GSP when you get to that point my friend breeds some of the best. Just sent his female to Germany for breeding. Get ahold of me.
Post by: skinzner on October 29, 2013, 11:47:20 AM
http://cedarwoodgundogs.com/ (http://cedarwoodgundogs.com/)
Post by: MLHSN on October 29, 2013, 11:56:28 AM
Post by: AspenBud on October 29, 2013, 12:03:15 PM
JJD you hit the nail on the head... it usually goes lab, lab, lab, gwp, brittany, springer, WPG, etc.
He'd have gotten different answers if he was looking for a specialist upland dog. Once you cross into wanting to do waterfowl and upland the choice can narrow quickly unless a guy is willing to look at more rare and more expensive versatile breeds that may or may not be that much better than a lab.
Any dog is good and as long as it is trained it will get you the birds.
Yes but not every breed is a good fit for every household and not every dog will make a good bird dog. Some could care less about hunting no matter how much money you pour into training.
The only way for a person to form a true conclusion is to go out and buy the dog themselves.
Observing the breeds hunting, being tested, and competing might be a safer start. Just going out and buying can be a setup for failure.
Post by: AspenBud on October 29, 2013, 12:10:39 PM
To the OP, something to be aware of. You should ask breeders of versatile breeds about "sharpness." A lot of those dogs were bred to run down and handle fur in addition to feathered animals. If a dog is getting tested under the German system it will likely have more of a taste for fur than lines that aren't. That's not to say those dogs don't make good hunting dogs, they do. But they aren't for everyone and there are things to consider before you buy one.
There are also some large differences between say, a deutsche kurzhaar and a shorthair bred to run in NSTRA trials.
Post by: MLHSN on October 29, 2013, 12:28:09 PM
Key information:
1. I've never hunted with a dog.
2. I do a LOT of hiking.
3. Grouse are usually a target of opportunity during long hikes.
I'm moving up a canyon with property backed by forest service land which I'll probably hike a couple times a week.
Traits I'm looking for in a dog:
1. First and foremost, a family dog. I have two small children.
2. One capable of going for long hikes and runs with me in varying climates.
3. One that has enough instinct as to be trainable, by a novice, to be at least a mediocre/novice upland game dog.
In regards to #3, is this even possible for someone with no gun dog experience? Would this necessitate paying a trainer thousands of dollars or could someone with the aid of a couple books and videos train a dog to help harvest a few extra birds?
It is hard to filter through all the information out there. Most all breed specific information appears to extremely opinionated. Some of you have suggested starting by watching a few dogs at work. Where can I do this? Many of you have mentioned field trials and clubs. Are these open to spectators? Can I show up and tag along or this kind of awkward? Just curious, my experience is limited to the number of dog owners I know. Which limits my data to potentially one or no dogs in some breeds. That leaves a lot of variance for potential errors caused by the owners and not necessary breed specific issues.
Post by: AspenBud on October 29, 2013, 01:34:59 PM
This thread has raised more questions then answers for me. I hope the OP doesn't mind me jumping in with additional questions. If you do, I can delete to start a new thread.
Key information:
1. I've never hunted with a dog.
2. I do a LOT of hiking.
3. Grouse are usually a target of opportunity during long hikes.
I'm moving up a canyon with property backed by forest service land which I'll probably hike a couple times a week.
Traits I'm looking for in a dog:
1. First and foremost, a family dog. I have two small children.
2. One capable of going for long hikes and runs with me in varying climates.
3. One that has enough instinct as to be trainable, by a novice, to be at least a mediocre/novice upland game dog.
In regards to #3, is this even possible for someone with no gun dog experience? Would this necessitate paying a trainer thousands of dollars or could someone with the aid of a couple books and videos train a dog to help harvest a few extra birds?
Do you want the dog to hunt closer to you? Or do you want it to range out? Do you want the dog to retrieve reliably? Do you want a pointer or a flusher?
I've run English Pointers on flat ground, hilly terrain, in mud, in snow, in heat, in temperatures down to 2 degrees, in a couple of blizzards, in rain, in open land, and forested cover that makes the best of us cuss. I've walked them, jogged with them, and even let them pull me down the road while I ride a bike. I've killed pheasants, grouse, and a good number of pen raised quail and chukar over them. The dogs have spent precisely zero days with a trainer, have pointed from day one, don't retrieve very well, they get along great with my kid (who is currently 19 months old), and I get complimented on how well behaved and friendly they are and how good they look just about every time we show up at a dog park. If they aren't running around like their hair is on fire they are probably sleeping on my couch, much to the dismay of my wife.
But before you get excited, those dogs can also run just about any other dog out there into the ground. You will tire LONG before they do. They run and run and run and run and they don't always do so within eye or ear shot. Some lines run bigger than others however and there are even a couple of AKC lines that produce what I would call good "beginner Pointers." But they all have a heavy exercise requirement and I wouldn't hunt one without some way to track it and without an e-collar.
Have I done some training with them on my own? Yes. Have I bought books to learn how to do so? Yes. Have I met up with people involved with field trials who helped me out? Yes. Would sending them to a pro have made them better bird dogs? Probably, but we still managed.
Why did I choose the breed? Long story. But I wanted a dog that could hunt all day, wasn't mean, and was relatively straight forward to train. I saw some Pointers, saw that they have rather dominated their corner of the field trial world for decades, and decided they were for me. What I got were dogs that have seemingly limitless energy, a never quit attitude, a natural point, are durable and adaptable, and have friendly personalities.
They aren't for everyone, but as far as I'm concerned God is an English Pointer.
Disclaimer: What worked for me, may not work for you. You'll have to figure out what works for you.
Post by: LndShrk on October 29, 2013, 01:49:41 PM
This thread has raised more questions then answers for me. I hope the OP doesn't mind me jumping in with additional questions. If you do, I can delete to start a new thread.
Key information:
1. I've never hunted with a dog.
2. I do a LOT of hiking.
3. Grouse are usually a target of opportunity during long hikes.
I'm moving up a canyon with property backed by forest service land which I'll probably hike a couple times a week.
Traits I'm looking for in a dog:
1. First and foremost, a family dog. I have two small children.
2. One capable of going for long hikes and runs with me in varying climates.
3. One that has enough instinct as to be trainable, by a novice, to be at least a mediocre/novice upland game dog.
In regards to #3, is this even possible for someone with no gun dog experience? Would this necessitate paying a trainer thousands of dollars or could someone with the aid of a couple books and videos train a dog to help harvest a few extra birds?
It is hard to filter through all the information out there. Most all breed specific information appears to extremely opinionated. Some of you have suggested starting by watching a few dogs at work. Where can I do this? Many of you have mentioned field trials and clubs. Are these open to spectators? Can I show up and tag along or this kind of awkward? Just curious, my experience is limited to the number of dog owners I know. Which limits my data to potentially one or no dogs in some breeds. That leaves a lot of variance for potential errors caused by the owners and not necessary breed specific issues.
My suggestion for you would be to get moved and invite some folks over with different dogs and figure out what traits you actually want from the dog.
Every dog is different regardless of breed. I have had two dogs out of the same litter and they were polar opposites. One could not get enough retrieving the other could care less about it.
Lots of homework will be your best friend. When you find things you like find out where they got the dog and go visit the breeder. They usually have a few dogs around to see as well. :tup:
Post by: pens fan on October 29, 2013, 06:45:13 PM
Half the size of a lab, twice the heart.
Check them out.
You may be surprised.