Post by: actionshooter on November 25, 2013, 04:49:28 PM
http://www.kirotv.com/videos/online/video-tribal-members-defending-decision-to-dump/vCJ5X8/ (http://www.kirotv.com/videos/online/video-tribal-members-defending-decision-to-dump/vCJ5X8/)
Post by: Bigtine96 on November 25, 2013, 04:52:16 PM
Post by: MLBowhunting on November 25, 2013, 04:55:10 PM
Post by: duckmen1 on November 25, 2013, 04:55:36 PM
Post by: h2ofowlr on November 25, 2013, 05:15:48 PM
Post by: Tman on November 25, 2013, 05:20:13 PM
Post by: bearbaito6 on November 25, 2013, 05:21:13 PM
Post by: Fowlweather25 on November 25, 2013, 05:28:36 PM
Post by: HntnFsh on November 25, 2013, 05:29:51 PM
And with the oxygen problems in Hood Canal. The Skokes think this is OK? :bash:
Post by: boneaddict on November 25, 2013, 05:31:18 PM
Post by: C-Money on November 25, 2013, 05:40:41 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on November 25, 2013, 05:44:00 PM
Disgusting.. To bad nothing will ever be done to discipline the members responsible.
................kinda like Fast and Furious. >:(
Post by: Tman on November 25, 2013, 05:47:17 PM
I have seen it multiple times. I am glad someone finally documented it. I used to see it by Purdy Creek. Made me sick.
Im suprised it took this long to get recognition. They dont just do this with chums. Seen lots of piles of kings and silvers along purdy too. On several occasions ive been fishing while the native next to me snags them up cutting the eggs out and throwing the fish on the bank.
It reflects badly on a heritage that once thrived and was respected for their sustainability.
Post by: 7mmfan on November 25, 2013, 05:51:01 PM
Post by: actionshooter on November 25, 2013, 05:53:32 PM
Post by: FC on November 25, 2013, 06:02:29 PM
Post by: seth30 on November 25, 2013, 06:03:28 PM
Post by: duckmen1 on November 25, 2013, 06:06:42 PM
Post by: FC on November 25, 2013, 06:16:18 PM
Replies need to be made on the news web page so non hunters and fisherman see are views.
I added mine.
Post by: boneaddict on November 25, 2013, 06:37:49 PM
Post by: sebek556 on November 25, 2013, 06:43:33 PM
Post by: Hurricane on November 25, 2013, 06:49:18 PM
Post by: h2ofowlr on November 25, 2013, 06:54:50 PM
Post by: npaull on November 25, 2013, 07:00:43 PM
Post by: Bronson on November 25, 2013, 07:05:08 PM
Anyone see the video of the kid snagging fish, beating the heck out of them with a stick, then dumping them in the ditch? Supposedly at Purdy creek as well, but I don't know for sure.
Post by: mallard79 on November 25, 2013, 07:10:11 PM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on November 25, 2013, 08:17:35 PM
First point - not familiar with this chum run but most coastal runs are below food quality when they are available to be caught in the rivers. The eggs of the chum are what have value, the flesh is often worthless. Currently there is a premium on any fish protein so these fish had value but only after the buyer/market was developed. It is not something that is easy or quick to accomplish. This waste of chum flesh has been an issue for years and is better now than in past years when it was cheaper for fish processors to dump the fish after stripping roe and take a state fine than it was to process the flesh.
Second point - the story was very weak on facts, sources, and information.
Third point - there us a high likelihood that there would not be enough spawning habitat to handle these fish if they were allowed to live and spawn naturally. Also it sounds like these were hatchery origin fish. If they were in a river system with kings and coho they could also potentially disrupt those species spawning areas and hurt future wild production. I have also observed thousands of chum suffocating in streams when runs are stronger than can be supported by the habitat.
Forth point - many riparian and coastal areas are suffering from loss of nutrients after salmon carcasses are no longer available in those areas. This composting is something similar to what has happened elsewhere where carcasses are taken up rivers and streams and littered on the beaches to return these nutrients.
I have other points but these should be enough to stimulate dome conversation?
Now for the rebuttals and criticism. I have some work to do so will check back on that at bedtime.
Post by: Hawgdawg on November 25, 2013, 08:23:19 PM
There are many hits and misses being perpetrated here. I have a bit more insight on this than most and while I agree that tribes are often gluttonous, wasteful, and irresponsible with their game and fish harvest practices this is one time where they are only marginally guilty. I am not defending here just trying to point out some cogent details.
First point - not familiar with this chum run but most coastal runs are below food quality when they are available to be caught in the rivers. The eggs of the chum are what have value, the flesh is often worthless. Currently there is a premium on any fish protein so these fish had value but only after the buyer/market was developed. It is not something that is easy or quick to accomplish. This waste of chum flesh has been an issue for years and is better now than in past years when it was cheaper for fish processors to dump the fish after stripping roe and take a state fine than it was to process the flesh.
Second point - the story was very weak on facts, sources, and information.
Third point - there us a high likelihood that there would not be enough spawning habitat to handle these fish if they were allowed to live and spawn naturally. Also it sounds like these were hatchery origin fish. If they were in a river system with kings and coho they could also potentially disrupt those species spawning areas and hurt future wild production. I have also observed thousands of chum suffocating in streams when runs are stronger than can be supported by the habitat.
Forth point - many riparian and coastal areas are suffering from loss of nutrients after salmon carcasses are no longer available in those areas. This composting is something similar to what has happened elsewhere where carcasses are taken up rivers and streams and littered on the beaches to return these nutrients.
I have other points but these should be enough to stimulate dome conversation?
Now for the rebuttals and criticism. I have some work to do so will check back on that at bedtime.
:yeah: Well typed and spoken!
Post by: FC on November 25, 2013, 11:21:20 PM
2nd point: Wasting game/fish is illegal by Washington state law and tribal law. How much more really needs to be said here?
3rd Point: If you are in doubt just run on down to the canal and have a look around, you will find plenty of salmon carcasses dumped in massive piles. This practice is nothing new, it's been going on for decades.
4th point: Composting? Have you seen the size of the piles they leave? At that level it becomes poisoning.
Post by: huntnnw on November 25, 2013, 11:34:33 PM
Post by: stw on November 26, 2013, 03:33:37 AM
How do the game warden sleep at night traders
Like the one guy saw that man get a ticket for not tagging his
elk or deer when he walk up on it right away. Bull crap
Post by: HntnFsh on November 26, 2013, 05:41:32 AM
Our own WDFW practices this by stripping thousands of salmon and steelhead a year of eggs and dumping them back into the rivers
Doesnt even compare to the Skoke fiasco. The places where WDFW does this is where the extra nutrients are needed. And you wont find a spot that looks anything like this.
Post by: HntnFsh on November 26, 2013, 05:45:58 AM
There are many hits and misses being perpetrated here. I have a bit more insight on this than most and while I agree that tribes are often gluttonous, wasteful, and irresponsible with their game and fish harvest practices this is one time where they are only marginally guilty. I am not defending here just trying to point out some cogent details.
First point - not familiar with this chum run but most coastal runs are below food quality when they are available to be caught in the rivers. The eggs of the chum are what have value, the flesh is often worthless. Currently there is a premium on any fish protein so these fish had value but only after the buyer/market was developed. It is not something that is easy or quick to accomplish. This waste of chum flesh has been an issue for years and is better now than in past years when it was cheaper for fish processors to dump the fish after stripping roe and take a state fine than it was to process the flesh.
Second point - the story was very weak on facts, sources, and information.
Third point - there us a high likelihood that there would not be enough spawning habitat to handle these fish if they were allowed to live and spawn naturally. Also it sounds like these were hatchery origin fish. If they were in a river system with kings and coho they could also potentially disrupt those species spawning areas and hurt future wild production. I have also observed thousands of chum suffocating in streams when runs are stronger than can be supported by the habitat.
Forth point - many riparian and coastal areas are suffering from loss of nutrients after salmon carcasses are no longer available in those areas. This composting is something similar to what has happened elsewhere where carcasses are taken up rivers and streams and littered on the beaches to return these nutrients.
I have other points but these should be enough to stimulate dome conversation?
Now for the rebuttals and criticism. I have some work to do so will check back on that at bedtime.
Fourth point argument.
There is a big problem with lack of oxygen in Hoods canal. Decaying fish makes the problem worse. I know of people that are very active in the health of Hood Canal. They advocate not even using Alaska fish fertilizer for shrimping due to its effect on the oxygen level. Not when 1 person does it. But when 1000s do. We cant even fish for bottom fish in the canal anymore because of this problem. So this is more of a detriment to the canal than a plus.
Post by: boneaddict on November 26, 2013, 07:57:24 AM
Post by: mallard79 on November 26, 2013, 08:13:09 AM
Post by: Practical Approach on November 26, 2013, 08:17:07 AM
Post by: PolarBear on November 26, 2013, 08:31:11 AM
I have to go back and dig through boxes of pics, but I have several photos of piles and I have one of a boat filled with fish. It sat in the sun all day while they slept of a big drunk (saw it with own eyes, so not profiling). Everything was lost. Tide came in and the boat was so heavy it sank.......My cousin rescued 2 Squaxins right in front of my Mom and Dad's house on Totten one morning at about 3:30. They had an 18' boat that was so overloaded with chums that when the tided changed and the wind picked up it swamped the boat capsizing it. Luckily for them my cousin was getting ready for work an happened to hear them calling for help. He jumped in his Dad's oyster boat, ran out and pulled them out of the freezing water. One was clinging to the boat and another barely holing on to a buoy. Both guys were so drunk and cold that they couldn't speak or even help them selves to get into the boat. The tribe did throw a huge party thanking my cousin and his wife though. Plenty of poached salmon and elk for everyone!
Post by: j_h_nimrod on November 26, 2013, 08:42:20 AM
There are many hits and misses being perpetrated here. I have a bit more insight on this than most and while I agree that tribes are often gluttonous, wasteful, and irresponsible with their game and fish harvest practices this is one time where they are only marginally guilty. I am not defending here just trying to point out some cogent details.
First point - not familiar with this chum run but most coastal runs are below food quality when they are available to be caught in the rivers. The eggs of the chum are what have value, the flesh is often worthless. Currently there is a premium on any fish protein so these fish had value but only after the buyer/market was developed. It is not something that is easy or quick to accomplish. This waste of chum flesh has been an issue for years and is better now than in past years when it was cheaper for fish processors to dump the fish after stripping roe and take a state fine than it was to process the flesh.
Second point - the story was very weak on facts, sources, and information.
Third point - there us a high likelihood that there would not be enough spawning habitat to handle these fish if they were allowed to live and spawn naturally. Also it sounds like these were hatchery origin fish. If they were in a river system with kings and coho they could also potentially disrupt those species spawning areas and hurt future wild production. I have also observed thousands of chum suffocating in streams when runs are stronger than can be supported by the habitat.
Forth point - many riparian and coastal areas are suffering from loss of nutrients after salmon carcasses are no longer available in those areas. This composting is something similar to what has happened elsewhere where carcasses are taken up rivers and streams and littered on the beaches to return these nutrients.
I have other points but these should be enough to stimulate dome conversation?
Now for the rebuttals and criticism. I have some work to do so will check back on that at bedtime.
Fourth point argument.
There is a big problem with lack of oxygen in Hoods canal. Decaying fish makes the problem worse. I know of people that are very active in the health of Hood Canal. They advocate not even using Alaska fish fertilizer for shrimping due to its effect on the oxygen level. Not when 1 person does it. But when 1000s do. We cant even fish for bottom fish in the canal anymore because of this problem. So this is more of a detriment to the canal than a plus.
I can see that, I was not familiar with the area they were dumped or the problems with the waterway. Point withdrawn.
In the beginning I should have qualified that while I have insight on chum fisheries and problems associated with them and not this specific incidence.
Post by: singleshot12 on November 26, 2013, 03:14:21 PM
I have to go back and dig through boxes of pics, but I have several photos of piles and I have one of a boat filled with fish. It sat in the sun all day while they slept of a big drunk (saw it with own eyes, so not profiling). Everything was lost. Tide came in and the boat was so heavy it sank.......My cousin rescued 2 Squaxins right in front of my Mom and Dad's house on Totten one morning at about 3:30. They had an 18' boat that was so overloaded with chums that when the tided changed and the wind picked up it swamped the boat capsizing it. Luckily for them my cousin was getting ready for work an happened to hear them calling for help. He jumped in his Dad's oyster boat, ran out and pulled them out of the freezing water. One was clinging to the boat and another barely holing on to a buoy. Both guys were so drunk and cold that they couldn't speak or even help them selves to get into the boat. The tribe did throw a huge party thanking my cousin and his wife though. Plenty of poached salmon and elk for everyone!
I think in that case your cousin should of just let karma take it's course. There's no excuse for the greed and waste of our natural resources. Our officials need to be more responsible and start with ending the export market for fish eggs. It amazes me what we let happen.
Post by: dscubame on November 26, 2013, 03:17:37 PM
There are many hits and misses being perpetrated here. I have a bit more insight on this than most and while I agree that tribes are often gluttonous, wasteful, and irresponsible with their game and fish harvest practices this is one time where they are only marginally guilty. I am not defending here just trying to point out some cogent details.
First point - not familiar with this chum run but most coastal runs are below food quality when they are available to be caught in the rivers. The eggs of the chum are what have value, the flesh is often worthless. Currently there is a premium on any fish protein so these fish had value but only after the buyer/market was developed. It is not something that is easy or quick to accomplish. This waste of chum flesh has been an issue for years and is better now than in past years when it was cheaper for fish processors to dump the fish after stripping roe and take a state fine than it was to process the flesh.
Second point - the story was very weak on facts, sources, and information.
Third point - there us a high likelihood that there would not be enough spawning habitat to handle these fish if they were allowed to live and spawn naturally. Also it sounds like these were hatchery origin fish. If they were in a river system with kings and coho they could also potentially disrupt those species spawning areas and hurt future wild production. I have also observed thousands of chum suffocating in streams when runs are stronger than can be supported by the habitat.
Forth point - many riparian and coastal areas are suffering from loss of nutrients after salmon carcasses are no longer available in those areas. This composting is something similar to what has happened elsewhere where carcasses are taken up rivers and streams and littered on the beaches to return these nutrients.
I have other points but these should be enough to stimulate dome conversation?
Now for the rebuttals and criticism. I have some work to do so will check back on that at bedtime.
:tup: :tup: yep
Post by: j_h_nimrod on November 26, 2013, 05:34:20 PM
I have to go back and dig through boxes of pics, but I have several photos of piles and I have one of a boat filled with fish. It sat in the sun all day while they slept of a big drunk (saw it with own eyes, so not profiling). Everything was lost. Tide came in and the boat was so heavy it sank.......My cousin rescued 2 Squaxins right in front of my Mom and Dad's house on Totten one morning at about 3:30. They had an 18' boat that was so overloaded with chums that when the tided changed and the wind picked up it swamped the boat capsizing it. Luckily for them my cousin was getting ready for work an happened to hear them calling for help. He jumped in his Dad's oyster boat, ran out and pulled them out of the freezing water. One was clinging to the boat and another barely holing on to a buoy. Both guys were so drunk and cold that they couldn't speak or even help them selves to get into the boat. The tribe did throw a huge party thanking my cousin and his wife though. Plenty of poached salmon and elk for everyone!
I think in that case your cousin should of just let karma take it's course. There's no excuse for the greed and waste of our natural resources. Our officials need to be more responsible and start with ending the export market for fish eggs. It amazes me what we let happen.
The problem with that thinking is that chum are fairly worthless as a food fish. The roe is where they have value unless you are on the Yukon River. Chum are arguably the most valuable salmon in terms of dollars, all attributable to their eggs. They are also easy to read in a hatchery environment which makes them more valuable. Chum are one of the main fish funding Alaskan hatcheries because of their ease of rearing in a hatchery environment and the value of the eggs.
Post by: singleshot12 on November 26, 2013, 05:49:52 PM
I have to go back and dig through boxes of pics, but I have several photos of piles and I have one of a boat filled with fish. It sat in the sun all day while they slept of a big drunk (saw it with own eyes, so not profiling). Everything was lost. Tide came in and the boat was so heavy it sank.......My cousin rescued 2 Squaxins right in front of my Mom and Dad's house on Totten one morning at about 3:30. They had an 18' boat that was so overloaded with chums that when the tided changed and the wind picked up it swamped the boat capsizing it. Luckily for them my cousin was getting ready for work an happened to hear them calling for help. He jumped in his Dad's oyster boat, ran out and pulled them out of the freezing water. One was clinging to the boat and another barely holing on to a buoy. Both guys were so drunk and cold that they couldn't speak or even help them selves to get into the boat. The tribe did throw a huge party thanking my cousin and his wife though. Plenty of poached salmon and elk for everyone!
I think in that case your cousin should of just let karma take it's course. There's no excuse for the greed and waste of our natural resources. Our officials need to be more responsible and start with ending the export market for fish eggs. It amazes me what we let happen.
The problem with that thinking is that chum are fairly worthless as a food fish. The roe is where they have value unless you are on the Yukon River. Chum are arguably the most valuable salmon in terms of dollars, all attributable to their eggs. They are also easy to read in a hatchery environment which makes them more valuable. Chum are one of the main fish funding Alaskan hatcheries because of their ease of rearing in a hatchery environment and the value of the eggs.
They may be worthless food fish when caught in the river. But I bet the majority(chromers) are caught in the bays(salt). I know that was the case with the Skagit and Stilly chums anyways and they were wiped out to near extinction with no sport season for several years now.
If they eggs were taken for hatcheries that is fine,but what led to greed and their demise is the export caviar market.
Post by: huntnnw on November 26, 2013, 09:36:47 PM
Our own WDFW practices this by stripping thousands of salmon and steelhead a year of eggs and dumping them back into the rivers
Doesnt even compare to the Skoke fiasco. The places where WDFW does this is where the extra nutrients are needed. And you wont find a spot that looks anything like this.
wrong..not even close to being used as fertilizer...my buddy works as a fish tech and I get to hear all about salmon and steelhead getting their tails chopped off and dumped into the rivers
Post by: Houndhunter on December 01, 2013, 03:35:59 PM
Post by: ICEMAN on December 01, 2013, 04:44:45 PM
Didn't the tribes used to eat whale? Now they sacrifice the run for their eggs, and disrespect the fishery. If I were a tribal member, I would be totally embarrassed.
Post by: MatthewHunter98 on December 01, 2013, 05:44:48 PM
Post by: huntnphool on December 01, 2013, 05:56:43 PM
Post by: PolarBear on December 01, 2013, 06:06:51 PM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on December 01, 2013, 11:28:25 PM
The best tasting salmon (chum) i ever smoked was out of that region, to say the "flesh" is worthless makes you look stupid as well with the tribes :twocents:. Skokes are one of the laziest tribes i've seen in my time in WA
The best road kill I ever ate came from Colorado, still makes it road kill. I have had some good smoked, spawned out, pink salmon too. If the best smoked salmon you have had was chum then you must have a good brine, not had much smoked salmon, or got lucky with the fish you used. Saying I look stupid for the comment shows how little you know.
Speaking from a purely monetary/market standpoint there is very little worth to the flesh, that is just the way it is. From an overall food quality standpoint chum ranks somewhere near the bottom bringing 10-15% of king, coho, or sockeye and that is for well handled product, there are always exceptions though. I know there have been great leaps in the troll caught chum market in SE Alaska, it is a great product that is caught before quality is overly effected due to physiological changes due to imminent spawning. Most chum available to the typical sport angler has already lost 30-50% of it's ocean bright quality, that is just the way much of the species is programmed. Of note as well, I worked at a hatchery where we put out totes of spawned out pinks for people to take, very few were taken, it is harder to give away fish then you think. We would not even try to give away chums, they were not considered food quality.
Also there is no commercial market for eggs stripped into buckets on your run of the mill boats. Especially boats operated in the manner it sounds like they are operated in. Any reputable caviar company would not, could not, purchase eggs collected in such a manner. To have a processing permit required to sell eggs requires some pretty stringent qc/qa practices.
Think I am up to at least 3 cents offered by now...
Post by: PolarBear on December 01, 2013, 11:34:04 PM
Post by: FC on December 02, 2013, 11:00:59 AM
The best tasting salmon (chum) i ever smoked was out of that region, to say the "flesh" is worthless makes you look stupid as well with the tribes :twocents:. Skokes are one of the laziest tribes i've seen in my time in WA
The best road kill I ever ate came from Colorado, still makes it road kill. I have had some good smoked, spawned out, pink salmon too. If the best smoked salmon you have had was chum then you must have a good brine, not had much smoked salmon, or got lucky with the fish you used. Saying I look stupid for the comment shows how little you know.
Speaking from a purely monetary/market standpoint there is very little worth to the flesh, that is just the way it is. From an overall food quality standpoint chum ranks somewhere near the bottom bringing 10-15% of king, coho, or sockeye and that is for well handled product, there are always exceptions though. I know there have been great leaps in the troll caught chum market in SE Alaska, it is a great product that is caught before quality is overly effected due to physiological changes due to imminent spawning. Most chum available to the typical sport angler has already lost 30-50% of it's ocean bright quality, that is just the way much of the species is programmed. Of note as well, I worked at a hatchery where we put out totes of spawned out pinks for people to take, very few were taken, it is harder to give away fish then you think. We would not even try to give away chums, they were not considered food quality.
Also there is no commercial market for eggs stripped into buckets on your run of the mill boats. Especially boats operated in the manner it sounds like they are operated in. Any reputable caviar company would not, could not, purchase eggs collected in such a manner. To have a processing permit required to sell eggs requires some pretty stringent qc/qa practices.
Think I am up to at least 3 cents offered by now...
The only one talking about spawned out fish here is you, these fish were taken from salt water or water so close to the canal that it was mostly salt still.
If you haven't had smoked chum or didn't think of it as good then either you don't know anything about smoking fish or you haven't had much or something. Smoked chum isn't just good for chum, it makes some damn good smoked salmon period!
Interesting that you would mention a chum's flesh as being worthless, $8 a lb for smoked "keta" at Winco. Keta must be a relative of chum with those pink and green stripes I saw on it...
What do you suppose the skokes are doing with the egss they take from these fish? I've heard from numerous of them that they are selling them just as fast as they can.
Post by: dscubame on December 02, 2013, 05:57:28 PM
Post by: mikesenescall on December 03, 2013, 05:07:35 PM
In Idaho along the Snake where I grew up steel head fishing, they take the Coho's that have spawned and died and take them high up where they use to spawn and dump hundreds, and thousands of Carcasses. They say 60-70% of the plants and trees have died off now because of no salmon returning to the small streams and creeks. The river needs dead fish to have a healthy surrounding area.
But like i said if there is no use and no other way, Its messed up and shouldn't be brushed off. We pay a *censored* ton to have the little fish that's left to be dumped in a puddle to rot.