Post by: Joe on December 23, 2013, 09:23:33 PM
Post by: Duffer on December 23, 2013, 10:17:20 PM
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum/ (http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum/)
I don't know 1st hand but I understand that White MLs are top of the line units.
Sorry I can't be more help
Post by: Sabotloader on December 24, 2013, 07:52:06 AM
Just purchased a white muzzeloader whitetail model g. I have never shot a white so , wondering if anyone has any experience with one.
Gee whiz... You just got one of the best/strongest ML's ever made.. it is not all that beautiful and it is old but 99% of them will shoot lights out...
THE WHITE WHITETAIL- DAVID GUMUCIO BROUGHT THE DESIGN TO DOC IN 1992. DOC ENGINEERED IT FOR PRODUCTION AND THE ORIGINAL WHITE SYSTEMS COMPANY BROUGHT IT OUT IN THE SAME YEAR. IT WAS ENORMOUSLY SUCCESSFUL AND WAS WHITE'S FASTEST SELLING RIFLE. IT CAME IN .410, .451 AND .504 CALIBERS, SPORTING STOCKS MADE OF HARDWOOD LAMINATE, HARDWOOD, AND BLACK FIBER-COMPOSITE. EARLIER STOCKS HAD PULLS OF 13 1/2 INCHES WHILE LATER STOCKS WERE 14 INCHES. ALL HAVE FULLY ADJUSTABLE TRIGGERS, TWO SAFETIES, ONE ON THE COCKING LEVER AND ANOTHER ON THE TRIGGER. BARRELS WERE 22" LONG, IN BLUE OR STAINLESS. THEY WEIGH ABOUT 7 LBS., DEPENDING ON CALIBER AND STOCK.
I am assuming that you got the 50 cal, (504) and if not and you got one of the .451's it is even more valuable. And the .410 step up in value even more.
The one complaint with that rifle is the recoil lug - which is a blade instead of a block, actually DOC will change that for you also. But, as you probably know Doc and a lot of the White shooters are into shooting large heavy lead concials. Because of the recoil that they can produce they can actually bend the blade. If you are shooting normal size bullets, like 350 grains and below in sabots shoot up a storm you will not have a problem.
The twist rate of the barrel is 1-24 if it is a 504 and they will shoot just about anything including the new very long all copper and brass bullets. You will probably have to use the thicker sabots to get the loading pressure you want...
Mine is a .451 with a 1-20 twist...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FWhite%2520451%2520Whitetail%2FWhitetailWS3746.jpg&hash=6913cca7171b054d43ac7402c52568fa9d0355b8) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/White%20451%20Whitetail/WhitetailWS3746.jpg.html)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FWhite%2520451%2520Whitetail%2FWhitetail12-21-12.jpg&hash=7d2a4192eb411b1c1c74e90aebf631ba24755ac7) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/White%20451%20Whitetail/Whitetail12-21-12.jpg.html)
The 504 version I have is a Whitelightening - basically the same rifle but the cocking lever is on the right side...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FWhite%2520Lightening%2FIMG_1350.jpg&hash=415edc3ad6a4b97fdd28f5a8ad8497daa59dd13a) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/White%20Lightening/IMG_1350.jpg.html)
This is a target I shot awhile back... it is only a 50 yard target as my objective was to get some velocities. And I was also shooting some prototype sabotless bullets from it....
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FWhite%2520Lightening%2F7-1-12shoot.jpg&hash=2edf266b56d8900666d6510cee2c482392128600) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/White%20Lightening/7-1-12shoot.jpg.html)
One thing you can say about Whites - THEY SHOOT!!!
Post by: TopOfTheFoodChain on December 24, 2013, 07:59:16 AM
Be aware that Whites use a "slip fit" bullet system so off the shelf bullets rarely work. Parts are available.
http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/ (http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/)
Post by: Whitelightning on December 24, 2013, 08:16:47 AM
White Rifles are in my opinion second to none. Accuracy is very good as well as reliability, I have a dozen or so in the safe, rifles, shotguns and a pistol or two.
Post by: Joe on December 24, 2013, 03:30:47 PM
Post by: Harleysboss on December 24, 2013, 03:53:56 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on December 24, 2013, 04:01:53 PM
I ordered 460 gr no excuse bullets today. I also have some sabots around, and some maxi bullets my dad poured 10 or so years ago.
oh O... the No Excuse might be to small For a White 504... they might just fall down the barrel. I had to get mine from Bull Shop and have them sized at .5045. And even then they were a little t loose for my liking...
Did you tell Dave they were for a White 504?
Post by: Joe on December 24, 2013, 04:24:59 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on December 24, 2013, 04:40:50 PM
No from reading about his bullets I thought they were .504 for a white. I just ordered them today so I will send him another message.
Check the post selling a couple of boxes of 460 No Excuse - They are .503
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FbullshopBullets-1.jpg&hash=782ab0b7ddc1d97131fabf301d4ace2aa93aeddd) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/bullshopBullets-1.jpg.html)
Post by: Joe on December 24, 2013, 06:22:21 PM
Post by: Whitelightning on January 07, 2014, 10:05:54 PM
I just got a white Bison .504, its similar to yours. Im not an expert but I shot several no excuses 460's, they measure at .503 and they seemed to loose in my bore. There is an other company named BullShop, they have a similar bullet as the no excuses and you can get it in a .504 and .5045 size. Someone else will have to chime in as I dont have contact info for them. (Sabotloader?)What I've been told and what I've researched keep powder charges with the big conicals on the moderate side. Like 70-90 grains. I just put a williams peep sight on mine. Mine will need a much taller front sight. Someone else mentioned modernmuzzleloading.com, I second that, lots of good info over there. Enjoy your new rifle.
The White Bison should shoot Daves bullets very well. The bullet should almost go down the barrel with the weight of the ram rod. The soft lead will belly and engage the lands that s how Doc designed the system. I have Williams peeps on 6 or so Whites different models and I have not had to replace the stock front site. I mount the peep on the rear most scope base holes behind the breech. Williams does make a WGRS Whitetail for the White rifles.
Post by: Whitelightning on January 07, 2014, 10:15:03 PM
E mail Doc he will be happy to discuss what works in the rifles.
Post by: Joe on January 08, 2014, 07:19:32 PM
Post by: Whitelightning on January 09, 2014, 07:37:42 AM
Post by: Joe on January 09, 2014, 10:04:52 PM
Post by: Whitelightning on January 10, 2014, 01:16:20 PM
I think you will be happy!
Post by: Sabotloader on January 10, 2014, 02:47:34 PM
I ordered the wgrs sight today. Asked about the front sight but Williams said they no longer have any information on the white rifles. So I will just in stall the rear peep and see if the front sight is tall enough.
I have a Lightening with a WGRS and a Williams front ramp. I removed the Whit bead and installed a Williams fiber optic and also a fire sight hood.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FWhite%2520Lightening%2FFSHood.jpg&hash=35f41c722790d15a9bbfa0020418dd744a8c8d57) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/White%20Lightening/FSHood.jpg.html)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FWhite%2520Lightening%2Flightningplunger.jpg&hash=0c7b21eae24c0ee485f77fde666cf9911a6ef8a0) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/White%20Lightening/lightningplunger.jpg.html)
I am really not fond of the WGRS, but it works. I would much rather have a micro adjusting peep like a Williams FP or a Lyman 57. The only reason I do not like the WGRS is that to sight it in it a slide & glide setup. Eventually you will get if very close, but the FP or the 57 you can adjust it I 1/4 minute clicks just like a scope.
Williams FP
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FP1010002a.jpg&hash=a8c01d3ac26b53cfa02d856ff4d1213e112df7aa) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/P1010002a.jpg.html)
Lyman 57
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FLymanGrad.jpg&hash=6e4e27b06deb37ebdef1e9b69a57fd65bb13fad2) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/LymanGrad.jpg.html)
Post by: Whitelightning on January 10, 2014, 04:40:54 PM
I have one each of the Williams FP and Lyman 57, on a couple Super Safaris I have. They both work very well and for bench shooting I love them. However I find out in the woods they are both very easily caught on clothing and brush. I prefer the WGRS for both cost and how sleek the site is. Peeps for my aging eyes are just easier to use. Personal preference comes into the equation I think. Peeps are great no matter what model or brand.
Post by: Sabotloader on January 11, 2014, 05:05:17 PM
Sabotloader,
I have one each of the Williams FP and Lyman 57, on a couple Super Safaris I have. They both work very well and for bench shooting I love them. However I find out in the woods they are both very easily caught on clothing and brush. I prefer the WGRS for both cost and how sleek the site is. Peeps for my aging eyes are just easier to use. Personal preference comes into the equation I think. Peeps are great no matter what model or brand.
In Idaho as well as Washington we have to use open sights also... I have never had a problem with either of the 2 peeps and they are both rugged as heck anyway. The 57 is even better than the FP, press a button and change the elevation to the range you want. Anyway like I say if I had the choice I would never purchase a WGRS by choice.
Post by: RG on January 11, 2014, 05:24:43 PM
Post by: Joe on January 11, 2014, 08:13:43 PM
Post by: Whitelightning on January 12, 2014, 07:45:07 AM
Post by: Joe on January 12, 2014, 03:44:24 PM
Post by: Whitelightning on January 12, 2014, 09:03:19 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on January 13, 2014, 11:38:39 AM
Does the Williams fire sight cover a lot of target at 100 yards? The guy on the phone said they were .060, my bow sights are .019. Also do you know how wide a sight you need for the dovetail?
It does not cover all that much. I believe it is 3" @ 100. But if you were to use what is called a 6 O'clock hold it would shoot where you aim.
With a Williams and fire site hood on... Picture 'H' this is about what you would see with a 6 o'clock hold
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FArchive%2FOpen_sight_pictures1.jpg&hash=e4694212462dd1d6dd1f6f739c47b87f06ea3c80) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Archive/Open_sight_pictures1.jpg.html)
For most ramps on most ML's including my Whites or Knight you need a narrow sight width... like a 243N