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Community => Taxidermy & Scoring => Topic started by: blindluck on December 27, 2013, 04:02:42 PM

Title: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on December 27, 2013, 04:02:42 PM: So I placed my deer head skinned eyes out ect. in water at a constant 85 deg last Thursday and nothing seems to be happening. I changed a 1/4 of the water out at day 5, when you pull it out it looks kind of greyish but the meat is not coming off. I expected in 8 days meat to be rotting off but no it just smells bad. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: MtnMuley on December 27, 2013, 04:03:45 PM: Turn er up to boiling and get er done in an hour. :twocents:
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: jrebel on December 27, 2013, 04:27:41 PM: I tried too and I think the temp needs to be a little warmer. Needless to say I will be waiting til spring to do my next so the water will maintain higher temps and I can do it outside..... :puke:
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on December 27, 2013, 04:35:02 PM: Quote from: MtnMuley on December 27, 2013, 04:03:45 PM
Turn er up to boiling and get er done in an hour. :twocents:
I hear ya, I have done the simmer method for years and it works pretty good but I know this is the best result if you can get the damn meat off.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Pathfinder101 on December 27, 2013, 04:36:31 PM: I had the exact same problem when I tried maceration a few years ago. I think I probably wasn't getting the water hot enough. Then I had an aquarium heater burn out and didn't realize it for a few days. I can't remember how long I had those things rotting in my shop, but I won't do it again. The end result was nice, but honestly my boiled and picked skulls look just as good on my wall. If I were a taxidermist producing museum quality pieces I might be able to tell the difference, but I'm not, and I can't. 8 feet up on the wall, they look the same to me.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on December 27, 2013, 04:51:28 PM: I Know, Michelle Nelson taxidermy makes it look fool proof. Five days into it darn near done. I don't know I guess I will just keep it in there till something happens or the horns melt.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Pathfinder101 on December 27, 2013, 04:57:02 PM: Quote from: blindluck on December 27, 2013, 04:51:28 PM
I Know, Michelle Nelson taxidermy makes it look fool proof. Five days into it darn near done. I don't know I guess I will just keep it in there till something happens or the horns melt.

Yeah, Mich is a genius with this method. She's the one that talked me into trying it. She literally has it down to a science. Not as easy as she makes it look though... I thought I could just dump water into a 5 gallon bucket, buy a cheap aquarium heater, throw my deer and bear skulls in, and a few days later they would pop out clean and done... Apparently there is a little more science involved... :chuckle:
To be fair, she really DOES turn out museum quality pieces with this method. :tup:
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: bobcat on December 27, 2013, 05:13:31 PM: Yes Michelle definitely knows the process but even she has given up on this method, and now sends her skulls off to a guy who cleans them with beetles.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on December 27, 2013, 06:12:28 PM: Really that's the first I've heard that, why did she stop.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: sebek556 on December 27, 2013, 06:42:07 PM: :yeah:
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: fairchase hunter on December 28, 2013, 09:32:42 AM: Simply boiling a skull, etc. in water in not sufficient to make the maceration process work. If you add an enzyme soap such as Biz it will speed up the process considerably. Keep your water temperature just below boiling for best results. Boiling for a long period of time can cause a skull to shrink. :)
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: PolarBear on December 28, 2013, 09:40:41 AM: With the current ambient temps, 85 degrees might not cut it. I keep mine in the low 90's in a 5 gallon bucket for deer and a 25 gallon tub for elk. Just a few degrees can make all the difference in the world. Also, is your water actually at 85 or is that what you have it set for on the heater?
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on December 28, 2013, 01:32:17 PM: Quote from: bobcat on December 27, 2013, 05:13:31 PM
Yes Michelle definitely knows the process but even she has given up on this method, and now sends her skulls off to a guy who cleans them with beetles.

Absolutly NOT TRUE! ! ! I havn't "given up" on the Maceration process that I used.

Yes, I am sending my skulls out now to have them done but the guy uses both Maceration and Beetles. If it is a Bear or Cougar skull that could make book it is Macerated here. Then scored and he finishes the degreasing and whitening.

These are the reasons why I started sending them out:

1. You need a seperate building really to do skulls. Just 1 tank (25 gallon) puts off a lot of humidity. I was running 4 of them. My degreasing tank held 100 gallons of water it usually had 40-60 gallons in it. My shop was at 75-90% humidity as a result. That affects how my mounts and salted hides dry. I have a dehumidifier running 24 hours a day and it wasn't able to keep the humidity down.

2. Skulls take a LOT of my time and they are only a very small part of my overall buisness. Time I could be using to get caught up on my mounts and rugs.

3. My shop was not adequately set up for making water changes quick and easy. I have to open the garage door and move everything out side. It sucks, especially when its raining. Packing 5 gallon buckets of hot water sucks when you have to do it 3 times a week.

4. When Macerating it really stinks. I got tired if having my customers smelling that when they came over.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on December 28, 2013, 01:33:53 PM: Quote from: fairchase hunter on December 28, 2013, 09:32:42 AM
Simply boiling a skull, etc. in water in not sufficient to make the maceration process work. If you add an enzyme soap such as Biz it will speed up the process considerably. Keep your water temperature just below boiling for best results. Boiling for a long period of time can cause a skull to shrink. :)

Your not Macerating if your boiling.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on December 28, 2013, 01:35:03 PM: Quote from: blindluck on December 27, 2013, 04:02:42 PM
So I placed my deer head skinned eyes out ect. in water at a constant 85 deg last Thursday and nothing seems to be happening. I changed a 1/4 of the water out at day 5, when you pull it out it looks kind of greyish but the meat is not coming off. I expected in 8 days meat to be rotting off but no it just smells bad. Any thoughts?

Did you trim as much meat off the skull as you could before begining the maceration process?
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on December 28, 2013, 10:19:37 PM: Thanks for the responses everyone, michelle i pulled the eyes and jaw. it looks like your skull in one of your posts where you scrambled the brains and dumped them out on the bucket. I have had it in between 85-88 deg checking with thermometer. Meat is still tight but water is nasty and smelly seems like it should be working. Today is day 9 and I will dump 1/4 of the water and add new hot water. I think I'm just going to stay on it till it works. Have you ever had an issue with it not working. Thanks much.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: washelkhunter on December 28, 2013, 10:39:58 PM: If your boiling you are making a nice stock.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on December 28, 2013, 11:43:55 PM: Never had that problem blindluck.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Pathfinder101 on December 29, 2013, 08:01:40 PM: Quote from: Michelle_Nelson on December 28, 2013, 01:32:17 PM

4. When Macerating it really stinks. I got tired if having my customers smelling that when they came over.

Mich!! This is the first time I have ever heard you admit this!! :yike:

She usually says something like "awww.... it ain't that bad...." :chuckle:
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on December 29, 2013, 09:02:54 PM: It's not bad. My customers say it stinks.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 29, 2013, 09:09:38 PM: Of coarse it doesn't stink to her she has Vicks vapor rub in her nostrils!! :chuckle:
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: PolarBear on December 29, 2013, 09:22:26 PM: Don't knock it until you've tried it! :chuckle: I have had to put Vick's in my nose before when skinning out 6 buffalo heads that had been sitting in black garbage bags for over a month. :puke:
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Pathfinder101 on December 29, 2013, 09:58:25 PM: CoryTDF did an elk skull for a buddy of ours once. Said he'd do it, then forgot about it for about 2 weeks. I went up to elk camp and retrieved the head. You could barely go near my truck. He gagged 6 times just cutting the head off the hide. I dropped by a couple of hours later to see how things were going and he had that head in a green maggot stew. I asked him how the hell he did it, he showed me a half empty jar of Vicks Vaporub... :chuckle:
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Michelle_Nelson on December 29, 2013, 10:20:28 PM: I've never needed Vick's. I just don't have a weak stomach when it comes to maggots and rotten meat.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Pathfinder101 on December 29, 2013, 10:22:30 PM: In Ocean's Thirteen I think they called that "Nose deaf"... :chuckle:
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: jackmaster on December 30, 2013, 06:36:09 AM: Quote from: bobcat on December 27, 2013, 05:13:31 PM
Yes Michelle definitely knows the process but even she has given up on this method, and now sends her skulls off to a guy who cleans them with beetles.
:yeah:the only way to go, and it is so clean it almost looks fake. i beleive there is a guy in orting that has beetles :tup:
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on December 30, 2013, 10:23:00 AM: I've been reading on taxidermy.net about maceration and people are saying it can take a month or longer to macerate with their experiences, so maybe there is hope for me. I also here people get er done in a week or two so who knows, I got the time so I'm gonna lee her brew.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: PolarBear on December 30, 2013, 11:21:37 AM: The bull that I am doing right now took 2 weeks to be completely meat free. Just remember that after a week you might have to take it out of the water and pick or shake off any huge hunks that are left, then the following week it should eat away the rest. If you are having big, grey hunks after 2 weeks, take it out and they should practically fall off.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on December 30, 2013, 01:15:47 PM: PolarBear, I pulled the deer head out yesterday that has been macerating for 10 days and the meat is still tight nothing coming off so i'm going to let it brew and change out some of the water every 5 days till it works.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: PolarBear on December 30, 2013, 01:22:38 PM: Try letting is brew for a little longer without changing the water, at least until you see it really working..
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on December 30, 2013, 03:45:20 PM: Will do.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Weehunt66 on January 04, 2014, 03:40:25 PM: How do you keep the water at 85 degrees? How many heaters are you using?
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on January 04, 2014, 06:00:56 PM: I use a hot water tank element now, good for maceration then degreasing.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: sirmissalot on January 06, 2014, 10:45:37 AM: I've had bad luck with the hot water tank elements when macerating. They always seem to burn up, which I think is caused from all the gunk in the water. For degreasing they do fine though. Did you do anything to keep the gunk from getting on the element?
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on January 06, 2014, 08:38:09 PM: Yes fill the tub with water above the element then put your skull in a 5 gallon bucket and put it in the tub,the water in the tub heats the water in the bucket and you always have clean water surrounding your element.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on January 10, 2014, 11:16:13 AM: what the heck, Im still macerating and nothing. I pull the head out and all the meat is tight on the head. Its all white but still not coming off.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Pathfinder101 on January 10, 2014, 12:45:17 PM: Quote from: blindluck on January 10, 2014, 11:16:13 AM
what the heck, Im still macerating and nothing. I pull the head out and all the meat is tight on the head. Its all white but still not coming off.

What you are describing sounds like almost the exact same thing that happened when I tried it. Eventually it worked, but took a really long time...
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on January 10, 2014, 05:43:09 PM: Really, how long did yours take?
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Weehunt66 on January 11, 2014, 10:40:07 AM: I have given up. The smell was horrible and it didn't appear anything was happening. I'm going to just boil them and settle for the results.....

Blindluck...I hope yours turn out better.
Title: Maceration problems
Post by: sirmissalot on January 12, 2014, 02:42:50 PM: Have you checked the temp in the bucket with the skull in it? Usually if mine is slow it's because it's not quite warm enough. It needs to be at least 90 in there.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on January 12, 2014, 03:00:13 PM: I have had the temp at a constant 92 deg.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Bean Counter on January 12, 2014, 03:23:06 PM: Once the flesh rotting is all done, be sure to take the time to properly degrease it. Michelle did an elk for me and I think she spent weeks/months getting it done right the first time. years later only a tiny bit of grease has leached and that is only in the thickest bone in the back of the skull.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: sirmissalot on January 12, 2014, 03:32:18 PM: Was it a clean, new 5 gallon bucket or was it used for something prior? After two weeks it should be rotten enough you can at least pull off most the big chunks of flesh. Assuming you didn't have something that could be killing the bacteria in the water in the bucket before you used it for macerating, you might try bumping up the temp a hair more. If it stinks, then it's working!
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on January 12, 2014, 04:52:55 PM: I am using a new plastic tub bought at Home Depot and a hot water tank element to heat the water, Im suprised its not working because it really smells and the water looks horrible, I pulled the skull out today and its still has all the meat tight on the skull but is white in color. also when I add water I use rain water free of any clorine or chemicals. Im not sure what else to do but to leave it in there and wait.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Pathfinder101 on January 13, 2014, 12:46:59 PM: Quote from: blindluck on January 10, 2014, 05:43:09 PM

Really, how long did yours take?

I can't remember exactly, but it was a long time.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on January 18, 2014, 12:24:17 PM: So here we are, been over a month and this is the progress of the maceration, not going very well!
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: PolarBear on January 18, 2014, 12:39:24 PM: Wow! I put DoubleJ's son's heads in on Tuesday and the meat is already falling off. I doubt that it will take much more than a week to get them both free of meat. It looks like you had a buch of meat on it when you put it in. :dunno: I always trim it down as much as I can, make sure the eyes and all that fat in the eye sockets and around the back of the head are gone and take the brains out. Did you throw it into the water while it was frozen or something? After a month you should just be soaking up grease and brine with zero meat on it. I also replace the water with hot water from the house instead of cold. Refreshing with cold water can slow down the process.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on January 18, 2014, 03:25:48 PM: I didn't put it in frozen, I just skinned the head pulled the eyes. I didnt trim any meat. this is my buddies blacktail been in over a month also I have a mule deer that has been in six weeks that isnt any further along. Next time I will trim most of the meat. I think im going to up the temp to 97ish, just dont want to kill the bacteria.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: sirmissalot on January 19, 2014, 11:47:15 AM: That meat looks pretty loose to me, I'd try shaking the loose stuff off, hose it and most should fall off... It looks like it's going well to me. Bump up the temp, I don't think you're going to kill the bacteria.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on January 25, 2014, 12:28:50 PM: well, its finally starting to work I think. still meat tight that I cant pull off with pliers but getting there. I'd say 50% meat free. Iam macerating at 99 degrees.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on February 20, 2014, 09:47:09 AM: well its been another 3 1/2 weeks and shes just about done, there is still some meat connected to the ear canal that refuses to come off, even scrubbing with a brush and my tools it still hanging on for dear life. 9 weeks total, What a deal!
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: sirmissalot on February 20, 2014, 09:57:26 AM: Degreasing is always the pain in the butt to me. Lots of water change outs and it will probably take about a month.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on February 20, 2014, 11:23:55 AM: I hope AJAX works 1/2 the price of Dawn.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: sirmissalot on February 24, 2014, 12:48:16 PM: I've had better luck with Dawn, you really shouldn't need much with one head.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: PlateauNDN on February 24, 2014, 01:05:50 PM: Just seen this but it looks like progress is coming along fine. I followed michelles advice and did everything to a "T" and so far has turned out nice. I haven't finished the degreasing process yet but have plans to re-start that very soon.

I had trimmed as much meat off as possible before I stuck the head in water and ran my temp at 93-95 with water changes every 3 days avg. just stick with it and you'll get there. I'm staying with it so i can have that sense of accomplishment with it. :tup:
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on February 24, 2014, 04:16:51 PM: I think my main problem was not trimming the meat, I just skinned pulled the eyes and put it in the water. I thought it would all rot off within two weeks but it took 9, I've been degreasing for two weeks. I just put the head in baqacil oxidiser 27% peroxide for 8 hours and it still has a yellow tint, will degrease for another week or two then re whiten.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on March 05, 2014, 02:42:25 PM: Here it is, finished it a few days ago turned out good in the end but took 2 1/2 months. After degreasing i soaked it in baqacil oxidizer for two days.
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: sirmissalot on March 05, 2014, 02:47:09 PM: Looks perfect :tup: nice work
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Dhoey07 on March 05, 2014, 02:49:56 PM: Just wanted to say that this thread was very helpful for me. This was my first time doing a euro using any method and i think it turned out pretty good. Gland this thread is around :tup:
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: blindluck on March 05, 2014, 03:16:31 PM: very nice, did yours take 1/2 as long as mine?
Title: Re: Maceration problems
Post by: Dhoey07 on March 05, 2014, 03:37:56 PM: Quote from: blindluck on March 05, 2014, 03:16:31 PM
very nice, did yours take 1/2 as long as mine?

2 months. I didn't have a very big fish tank heater and i kept it in my garage so i'm sure my temps were low while soaking.