Post by: bigtex on January 21, 2014, 08:18:50 AM
-The department may not issue a permit under this chapter for the use of a suction dredge in any state waters that have been designated as critical habitat for threatened or endangered species by the United States fish and wildlife service or the United States national oceanic and atmospheric administration or in the tributaries of any freshwater state waters that have received critical habitat designation.
-A mineral prospecting and mining permit is required to conduct small scale prospecting and mining and any mineral prospecting and mining not prohibited under RCW 77.55.021(7)(a). The fee for the permit is one hundred fifty dollars. In addition to the permit, compliance with the pamphlet referenced in RCW 77.55.091(2) is required in order to conduct mineral prospecting and mining. Permit applicants must submit a permit application and payment in a manner and form required by the department. Prior to prospecting and mining activities, the permit holder shall notify the department of the month and location that the prospecting and mining will be performed.
"The pamphlet" is the Gold & Fish Pamphlet that WDFW issues regarding small scale prospecting and mining.
So your question is probably, "what is small scale prospecting and mining"? Under state law that term is defined as, "means the use of only the following methods: Pans; nonmotorized sluice boxes; concentrators; and minirocker boxes for the discovery and recovery of minerals."
So essentially this bill will make it illegal for WDFW to permit the use of suction dredges in listed critical habitat areas, AND require a $150 for any "small scale prospecting and mining" as well as require prospectors to notify WDFW of the month and location the prospecting will take place.
http://dlr.leg.wa.gov/billsummary/default.aspx?Bill=2579&year=2013 (http://dlr.leg.wa.gov/billsummary/default.aspx?Bill=2579&year=2013)
Post by: bearpaw on January 21, 2014, 08:29:03 AM
Post by: bigtex on January 21, 2014, 08:43:44 AM
I am opposed. The Columbia has endangered salmonoids, this means any tributary to the Columbia would be off-limits, that's crazy.
The provision you are talking about (suction dredging) is kind of already in place. Per WAC 220-110-130 "Dredging shall not be conducted in fish spawning areas unless it is designed to create or improve the access or quality of fish spawning areas."
I am more opposed to the $150 permit that anybody who wants to go panning for the day needs to get...
Post by: bearpaw on January 21, 2014, 08:55:32 AM
I am opposed. The Columbia has endangered salmonoids, this means any tributary to the Columbia would be off-limits, that's crazy.
The provision you are talking about (suction dredging) is kind of already in place. Per WAC 220-110-130 "Dredging shall not be conducted in fish spawning areas unless it is designed to create or improve the access or quality of fish spawning areas."
I am more opposed to the $150 permit that anybody who wants to go panning for the day needs to get...
Yes, I know. I also agree with your point about the $150 permit too. That's unreasonable. :tup:
Post by: duckmen1 on January 21, 2014, 09:01:54 AM
Post by: KFhunter on January 21, 2014, 09:26:25 AM
The newly suctioned holes make hiding places for the fry and the gravel bar a spawning bed.
sounds like a problem looking for a solution coupled with a money grab.
Post by: KFhunter on January 21, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
I am opposed. The Columbia has endangered salmonoids, this means any tributary to the Columbia would be off-limits, that's crazy.
The provision you are talking about (suction dredging) is kind of already in place. Per WAC 220-110-130 "Dredging shall not be conducted in fish spawning areas unless it is designed to create or improve the access or quality of fish spawning areas."
I am more opposed to the $150 permit that anybody who wants to go panning for the day needs to get...
I guess you already said it here, I agree with this
Post by: chukar58 on January 21, 2014, 10:08:41 AM
Post by: KFhunter on January 21, 2014, 10:14:09 AM
We already have to buy a discover pass.
Why would anyone want to charge a guy taking his kids out on a sunny summer day to pan for couple hours? It only happens for the vast majority of people once or twice a year.
Most folks might find a dab of flour gold or a couple specs, bottle it in a small tube and put it in the window for the next 2-3 years before it finds it's way to a junk drawer :chuckle:
Post by: Knocker of rocks on January 21, 2014, 10:18:52 AM
I am opposed. The Columbia has endangered salmonoids, this means any tributary to the Columbia would be off-limits, that's crazy.
I disagree with the need for the law, but I also don't think your example would be applicable. I think the actual stream would have to be a critical area.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on January 21, 2014, 10:53:19 AM
I am opposed. The Columbia has endangered salmonoids, this means any tributary to the Columbia would be off-limits, that's crazy.
The provision you are talking about (suction dredging) is kind of already in place. Per WAC 220-110-130 "Dredging shall not be conducted in fish spawning areas unless it is designed to create or improve the access or quality of fish spawning areas."
I am more opposed to the $150 permit that anybody who wants to go panning for the day needs to get...
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: Most panners probably never get $150 in gold in a year. :bash:
Post by: bigtex on January 21, 2014, 10:55:21 AM
My question is if this bill were to be adopted and put into law where would the money generated from the permit sales go? To fish and wildlife or the general fund????? :dunno:
Under the current bill there is no specification. All other current laws regarding fish and wildlife fees have some type of defined account they go into for WDFW. For example, the fee for obtaining a hydraulic project approval goes into an account funding the hydraulic project program.
Post by: lokidog on January 21, 2014, 10:58:40 AM
Post by: snowpack on January 21, 2014, 11:01:03 AM
I also think it is crazy to charge that fee to pan or sluice. Most of the rivers I go to in WA only have about a two week window to prospect near the wetted area anyways.
Post by: bigtex on January 21, 2014, 11:03:13 AM
Anytime you are doing ANY type of panning, sluicing, etc in a body of water that has timing restrictions (which are most streams in WA) you MUST have a copy of the WDFW Gold & Fish Pamphlet with you at the "job site."
It is actually a gross misdemeanor in WA to fail to have the pamphlet.
Post by: bigtex on January 22, 2014, 10:18:24 AM
Widespread support for this legislation is what I am seeing. According to many this is overdue legislation and many believe WA is the least regulated state on the west coast and BC when it comes to this type of mineral prospecting.
Times may be a changing....
Post by: Special T on January 22, 2014, 10:42:36 AM
CANADIANS DRIVE up thier creek and river beads on a regular basis and its NORMAL! Yes there are closures for that at certain times of the year...
The old argument was if you used motorized equiptment you had to get a permit... now a shovel pan rocker box... :bash:
Post by: bigtex on January 22, 2014, 10:50:23 AM
Post by: buckfvr on January 22, 2014, 10:59:44 AM
This time of the year in Olympia, theres only one mission........take money. Eventually this state will literally want to be paid for the air you breath and the space you take up physically as a human.
Id think before they write all these new laws they introduce each year, they would have to delete all the bogus and out dated laws of past sessions.
Government is synonymous with corruption.........cant have one with out the other.
Post by: snowpack on January 22, 2014, 11:02:28 AM
I was in attendance at a fishing group meeting last night and have viewed several fishing message boards.I haven't seen much widespread support on the fishing boards. Many are rather skeptical and want to see some kind of evidence that suction dredging is actually a problem. The only boards it seems that are widespread support are flyfishing, but they usually always advocate to get ALL OTHER user groups off the rivers.
Widespread support for this legislation is what I am seeing. According to many this is overdue legislation and many believe WA is the least regulated state on the west coast and BC when it comes to this type of mineral prospecting.
Times may be a changing....
Post by: bigtex on January 22, 2014, 11:02:48 AM
They are all loving the suction dredging part.
Post by: bigtex on January 22, 2014, 11:04:55 AM
Apparently we look at different fishing boards :chuckle: . But I do agree with you in regards to the fly guys.I was in attendance at a fishing group meeting last night and have viewed several fishing message boards.I haven't seen much widespread support on the fishing boards. Many are rather skeptical and want to see some kind of evidence that suction dredging is actually a problem. The only boards it seems that are widespread support are flyfishing, but they usually always advocate to get ALL OTHER user groups off the rivers.
Widespread support for this legislation is what I am seeing. According to many this is overdue legislation and many believe WA is the least regulated state on the west coast and BC when it comes to this type of mineral prospecting.
Times may be a changing....
Post by: Special T on January 22, 2014, 11:08:45 AM
Predator control can do more and has an imediate impact on fish.
But then again its hard to use water/fish as a way to control people if you actually do something about it.
Post by: wapiti hunter2 on January 22, 2014, 05:15:07 PM
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on January 22, 2014, 05:37:45 PM
Post by: dreamunelk on January 22, 2014, 05:42:14 PM
There was a lot of thought and research conducted by the WDFW to set the current rules.
No need for a $150.00 permit.
Really have to wonder where this bill came from.
Post by: snowpack on January 22, 2014, 09:37:02 PM
How do the "fly guys" feel about HR 2143 Genetically Engineered Fish?From their discussion boards, I don't recall seeing a single member in favor of GE/GM fish (heck, they don't even like hatchery fish that are the same fish they do like). There were discussions on the modified salmon not all that long ago, but I haven't seen many directly mentioning the bill. I can't say any of the fishing boards (fly or other) showed any support for modified fish being released or even in a position of accidental release.
Bigtex, does WDFW even encounter significant numbers of dredges working the rivers in Western WA? I can't recall seeing any, but where I go most of the gold is on national park land so off limits anyways.
Just kind of wonder if having 50-100 driftboats a day dragging anchors through gravel has a cumulative affect greater than the few dredges that might be out operating. Kind of like how handguns are used in over 90% of murders, but people think rifles are the problem.
Post by: bigtex on February 03, 2014, 02:30:06 PM
The financial information for this bill has been released. The funds from the fee would go into the WDFW hydraulic project account.My question is if this bill were to be adopted and put into law where would the money generated from the permit sales go? To fish and wildlife or the general fund????? :dunno:Under the current bill there is no specification. All other current laws regarding fish and wildlife fees have some type of defined account they go into for WDFW. For example, the fee for obtaining a hydraulic project approval goes into an account funding the hydraulic project program.
The state believes there are approximately 2,000 people prospect using the Gold & Fish pamphlet as their permit. WDFW has issued 300 beach prospecting permits per year. And about 150 HPA permits are issued for prospecting that goes beyond the scope of the Gold & Fish Pamphlet. If these numbers stay constant the WDFW would receive $367,500 per year as a result of the fee.
Post by: bigtex on February 03, 2014, 02:31:19 PM
Has the Bill made it out of Committee yet? Most bills don't. :dunno: In this State, whatever the "do-gooders" want, the "do-gooders" get! :bash:Bill hasn't even had a hearing yet.
Post by: Special T on February 03, 2014, 02:43:11 PM
Post by: lokidog on February 03, 2014, 08:20:43 PM
Lets hope it doesnt even get a hearing. I have done a little panning with a small shovel and a pan just taking my kid out to the creek. I can tell you that if i have to purchase a permit i won't be going. Istill think that hand methods should be excempt from a $ permit... So far i only have acouple of flakes for my several trips out with the kids.
:yeah:
Post by: Jingles on February 03, 2014, 11:07:04 PM
1: IN water work times.. Yes dredgers are restricted as to when we can even work in the water and the times are not favorable to dredging. Lets take Slate Creek on the back side of Harts Pass which I am sure quite a few of you are familiar with. Dredging can only be done there from October 1 through February 28th. Anyone even tried to get down to the creek in Late Oct Nov, Dec Jan or Feb? Even if you can get to the creek the damned thing is frozen over, under 6 feet of snow or the temps are so cold there is no way a person could be in the water to operate a dredge. OR we can take Peshastin Creek on Blewett Pass work times there are a little more lenient because we can work there from 1 Aug to 28 Feb but Peshastin creek the water drops so low you can't float a dredge and again NOV through Feb. it is under so much snow and the temps are so unbearably cold even if you hit the mother load you couldn't work in the water.
If a dredger is dredging and see fish in the area where he/she is working we have to cease operations and move. I can tell you from experience that fish will find a dredger and stay around because we are moving the substrate and exposing various insects that the fish feed on dart in grab the insect and swim off then come back for seconds and more.
What upsets me is we, Anyone even panning for gold can't be in the water except during the work times because of possibly endangering a reds bed, yet fishermen, rafters, kyakers, tubers, swimmer and any john Q Public can be in the water anytime with supposedly no threat to the reds.
The WDFW uses Studies to say that dredging is supposedly detrimental to fish yet there are more studies that prove Dredging is actually beneficial to fish but they don't acknowledge those studies just the ones that support their way of thinking.
As a dredger May I request that you contact your state legislator and ask this not even be brought to committee or if it is ask them to vote no on it as there are already enough restrictions on protecting the fish.
Thanks for reading this and if you need more info please feel free to contact me and I can provide reams of info.
Post by: Special T on February 04, 2014, 09:07:10 AM
Post by: blackdog on February 04, 2014, 09:32:54 AM
Post by: bigtex on February 04, 2014, 09:39:37 AM
In BC they use riverbeds as ROADS during large portions of the year!
BC also heavily pollutes the Columbia River so much that there is a health/pollution warning for fish on the upper part of Lake Roosevelt :twocents:
Post by: Special T on February 04, 2014, 09:57:59 AM
True BigTex but that polution is from a smelter.
http://news.ca.msn.com/local/britishcolumbia/bc-mining-giant-admits-polluting-us-waters-1 (http://news.ca.msn.com/local/britishcolumbia/bc-mining-giant-admits-polluting-us-waters-1)
There is a HUGE difference between large scale mining and using a small dredge or hand methods. There are lots of scary stories about mines going bankrups and the delapitated sites going unmanaged. MOST of those are much older sites and large commercial ventures, not joe 6 pack playing in the creek with his kids and dog.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on February 04, 2014, 10:19:52 AM
I know some guys that run Unimogs on rivers for hunting camp and a guy that uses his baha rig on them as i remeber there arre like 3-4 months out of the year that they can't use them.:yeah: :yeah:
True BigTex but that polution is from a smelter.
http://news.ca.msn.com/local/britishcolumbia/bc-mining-giant-admits-polluting-us-waters-1 (http://news.ca.msn.com/local/britishcolumbia/bc-mining-giant-admits-polluting-us-waters-1)
There is a HUGE difference between large scale mining and using a small dredge or hand methods. There are lots of scary stories about mines going bankrups and the delapitated sites going unmanaged. MOST of those are much older sites and large commercial ventures, not joe 6 pack playing in the creek with his kids and dog.
But government loves to pick on the little guy "T".
Post by: Special T on February 04, 2014, 10:36:11 AM
Post by: Special T on February 19, 2014, 09:53:30 AM
I saw this video a couple of days ago and felt the need to share this. I DO NOT use a dredge but have taken a pan and small sluce out a couple of times. I hope people like Jingle save this for next year when we have ot fight these idiots again.
Post by: bearpaw on February 19, 2014, 10:09:44 AM
In BC they use riverbeds as ROADS during large portions of the year!
BC also heavily pollutes the Columbia River so much that there is a health/pollution warning for fish on the upper part of Lake Roosevelt :twocents:
That is primarily due to Cominco Corp (mining and fertilizer) in Trail, BC which puts tons of contaminants in the river just north of the border. Also some Canadian cities have overflow sewage problems at times and it all flows down stream. As stated by others, it's not the recreational prospector with his kids and dog causing the problem. :twocents:
Post by: blackdog on February 19, 2014, 10:48:36 AM
Post by: KFhunter on February 19, 2014, 10:54:53 AM
In BC they use riverbeds as ROADS during large portions of the year!
BC also heavily pollutes the Columbia River so much that there is a health/pollution warning for fish on the upper part of Lake Roosevelt :twocents:
That is primarily due to Cominco Corp (mining and fertilizer) in Trail, BC which puts tons of contaminants in the river just north of the border. Also some Canadian cities have overflow sewage problems at times and it all flows down stream. As stated by others, it's not the recreational prospector with his kids and dog causing the problem. :twocents:
no kidding! add the pulp mill to that list too, and add the lumber mill still floating logs in the river.
try fishing in the spring on the upper Columbia and the pulp floating down (looks like wet toilet paper) is so thick it'll gum up your hooks/line and sinker weights on each cast.
It's so thick it's almost impossible to fish, gets on your line and creates so much drag on the line it goes down stream not that any fish would bite your bait anyways it's so loaded with white gunk.
Can't imagine what 24/7 exposure to that crap does to the fish gill plates. I bet their constantly trying to keep them clean :dunno:
Post by: bonaro on February 23, 2014, 11:46:20 AM
I Have been gold mining for over 30 years and have dredged from Wyoming to Cali to Alaska and all points in between. I have seen the march of the liberal environmentalist zealot and it is very sad and impressive to witness what they can accomplish.
This all began in California which is by no coincidence the most liberal state in the west. The environmentalists partnered with the tribes and began putting emotional and political pressure on the state in the name of fish protection. Public opinion swayed in their favor because they efficiently played the plight of the tribes along with guilt over not saving the planet... This was supported by a blizzard of supporting documents from scientific report factories. Any pro-mining report that was presented was loudly shouted down and discredited. Dredging was completely shut down in the state that was founded by mining and remains so today.
They took this victory and playbook to Idaho and Oregon and now dredging is severely curtailed in those areas as well. It is now beginning in Washington and if you take a look at the names involved you will see it is being pushed by the same people. They have gained allies in the fishermen by convincing them the dredgers kill fish. They have gained allies in the rafters by saying dredges present hazards to them. They have yet to figure our a way to hook the hunters but they are working on it.
After the win in Cali they took the flawed science and called it peer reviewed and settled fact. Things like the sediment from a dredge is harmful but the hundreds of miles of raging chocolate milk which is most rivers during runoff, is good. Ideas like dredging contaminates the stream with mercury that is already in the stream...such things don't any sense to someone who considers them without a emotional sway. This is because they are manufactured to instill an emotional response and simply untrue. I can address these or other issues in far greater detail if anyone is interested.
I belong to the Resources Coalition which is a non-profit that fights to preserve the right to use our land...public land...for all user groups
http://resourcescoalition.org/ (http://resourcescoalition.org/) If every one of you do not belong to this or some similar org, you are risking the loss of our public land. It will be taken away one small bite at a time until all we can do is hike through it and take pictures. If you think this only a problem for the miners that is also a mistake, the other user groups are next.
I am a gold miner, hunter, fisherman and pretty much love anything in the outdoors. I also run a Gold Prospecting Outfitter business, like a hunting or fishing guide for gold miners. I provide a lot of instruction on proper and legal mining methods and everything I do is with the protection of the environment in mind. I love the outdoors, why would I want to harm it? There is no reason why dredging cannot co-exist with all the other user groups.
Post by: bearpaw on February 23, 2014, 12:07:35 PM
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups and quit losing opportunity.
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on February 23, 2014, 12:22:52 PM
:yeah: I have been saying the same thing to sportsmen for years.
Americans are systematically advocating, legislating, and voting away each others rights. Support all user groups and quit losing opportunity.
Read that CAREFULLY fellow hunters!!! :yeah: :yeah: Some do need to wake up!
Post by: bonaro on February 23, 2014, 03:56:10 PM
I dredge all summer then hunt and fish like a madman in the fall and winter. I dont steelhead so now is quiet for me but wihtout public land I would have no recreational pastime. Things like the Discover pass are just little bites out of our heritage
Post by: blackdog on February 23, 2014, 08:59:07 PM
Post by: snowpack on February 23, 2014, 09:09:59 PM
Post by: bonaro on February 23, 2014, 10:11:01 PM
The Chair of the committee has asked the bill sponsor to spend a day with the mineral prospectors and come back next year. I don't think he likes the proposed legislation. :chuckle:
That is fascinating and very welcome news. I agree that Rep Gael Tarleton, the author of this bill, could benefit from some hands on experience because she does not seem to have a clue about what we do. However, considering she is a very dedicated liberal, any demonstration would likely be observed with a deep bias.
I am a licensed Gold Mining Outfitter and I take people out for guided gold mining adventures. I will waive my fee and offer to take Rep Tarleton and a few of her aides (and her husband who is a steelheader and hates miners) out for a day of dredging. She can even keep the gold she finds...and I guarantee she will have a good time and maybe she will develope a new pastime.
Post by: bonaro on February 24, 2014, 09:07:54 PM
The Chair of the committee has asked the bill sponsor to spend a day with the mineral prospectors and come back next year. I don't think he likes the proposed legislation. :chuckle:
Blackdog, can you give me a link back that this info?