Post by: hillbilli on February 03, 2014, 09:02:33 PM
Post by: Lucky1 on February 03, 2014, 09:10:45 PM
Post by: lokidog on February 03, 2014, 09:27:48 PM
The reflective tape is a good idea.
Post by: Greg Mullins on February 03, 2014, 09:34:27 PM
Post by: hillbilli on February 04, 2014, 06:21:41 PM
Post by: Smossy on February 04, 2014, 06:28:39 PM
This is a place I go through. http://www.arrowrap.com/solid-reflective.php (http://www.arrowrap.com/solid-reflective.php)
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 04, 2014, 08:34:07 PM
Post by: Smossy on February 04, 2014, 09:18:00 PM
Broadheads that rust... :dunno: I swear by thunder heads, been using them since day one, never had one rust.Good carbon blades will rust, They're great for being sharp and replaceable, but that's about it.
With my Savora's Ill use them for one hunt and then throw the blades away whether I kill something or not. (Unless there's virtually no moisture outside and I'm not walking through wet vegetation/brush AND they're not shot) Then I may hold on to them until the next hunt.
My understanding is the more resilient the blade is to the weather and long term use; the less likely they are to hold an edge and STAY sharp.
Carbon holds the lowest profile sharp edge, But rusts.
Someone correct me If I'm wrong.
Radsav will probably chime in with the technical side and what not eventually. :chuckle:
Post by: RadSav on February 05, 2014, 01:47:21 AM
Broadheads that rust... :dunno: I swear by thunder heads, been using them since day one, never had one rust.
If you've had an actual heat treated razorblade, which Thunderheads are, then you have had rusty blades. They are called stainless, not rustless! Any heat treatable stainless has a reasonable carbon content. If it didn't they would be as soft as .027" thick aluminum foil. In carbon steel blades what you see as rust is an iron oxide film. This "rust" in carbon blades is active thus it creates/breeds even more iron oxide and it eventually penetrate into the metals internal structure causing it to flake. Stainless steel begins to rust as the surface carbon decays, but the active iron oxide is defused by a passive chromium film. This bonds the oxide to the surface and stops the flaking and penetration into the metal's internal structure. You now have a dull blade, but it's not going to get any worse from this point on. Whereas a carbon blade will continue to decay. When you figure the carbon blade started out about 30% sharper than the stainless it's not really that big of an advantage in practical hunting scenarios. Huge benefit is sales and marketing spin though!
Good news is that stainless is a progressing art whereas carbon has pretty much run it's course. We get better and better stainless all the time. Some has begun to exhibit grinding capabilities as close as 80% of what you get in a good quality 1095 Carbon. And the purity in the microscopic fine edge is getting effective enough that degradation of the edge is not at all what it used to be. G5 Stryker, Grim Reaper and Slick Trick are using this new steel right now! I know WASP was discussing it before Maleski passed away, but I'm not sure if they made the change or not.
I've sprayed mine like that in the past as well. I used cooking oil instead of WD40 as I didn't want non-edible oil in my meat.
Instead you get food-grade alcohol, nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide, or propane :tup: :chuckle:
I would stay away from PAM myself if trying to maintain the quality of my blades edges. PAM and other cooking sprays are simply an oil (usually canola) thinned out with water. An emulsifying agent keeps the water and oil suspended so they don't separate. But, you are simply spraying down your blades with water, corn alcohol and veggie oil. Not the most preventative rust solution out there IMO. While WD-40 is not my absolute favorite it does displace water and does not get sticky over time. Aquanet does have water in it but ingredients in the hair spray cause it to evaporate quickly leaving a nonsticky polymer bonded shell. Both are reasonably good choices. However, I prefer Castrol, Remoil or similar gun oils instead. Doesn't take much and smell can be limited.
Or better yet...replace your blades often with nice fresh optimal sharp new ones! They are cheap insurance for that once in a lifetime trophy :tup:
Post by: Tree Killer on February 05, 2014, 06:47:36 AM
Post by: Smossy on February 05, 2014, 06:48:19 AM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 05, 2014, 10:15:00 AM
Post by: RadSav on February 05, 2014, 11:04:00 AM
Is this rust microscopic? I have some old t-heads hanging in the shop, been there for 8+ years, i see no rust ??? :dunno:
Depends on the particular material used what the size of the iron/carbon molecules. The natural passivation bonds it to the surface so you see very little of it unless you view in a microscope. The first time you watch a drop of saline mist hit a stainless blade through a microscope it's rather startling! Reminds me of dropping pennies in acid during high school science class. It doesn't remain active so you don't get the large accumulation of orange/red you do with carbon. But the damage is done.
When I started bowhunting one of the early successful usages of stainless razorblades was by Kolpin in their Modular broadhead (Not to be mistaken by the garbage imported Kolpin blades after Ron Kolpin sold the company). Opening day of that year I shot a small two point blacktail with my third shot. Clean misses on the first two attempts :bash: One of the missed shots hit a root ball of a fallen fir tree. It penetrated only about 1/3rd the blade length, but I was unable to pull it loose. So I flagged it with tape and figured I would come back later with a puller. I did not make it back until late elk season. When I did finally pull it you would have been lucky to cut yourself on the blades. They were dull as dull could be even though they looked shinny new. There was nothing around to rub against it, no build up of dust or dirt. Just exposure! That was years before I met Duke Savora and when I first learned stainless was not immune to environmental degradation.
Post by: D-Rock425 on February 05, 2014, 11:39:31 AM
Post by: lokidog on February 05, 2014, 11:42:43 AM
I've never owned a broadhead long enough to have it rust. I always seem to get blood on them way before they have time to rust.
:kneel:
:rolleyes: :chuckle:
Post by: RadSav on February 05, 2014, 11:55:25 AM
I've never owned a broadhead long enough to have it rust. I always seem to get blood on them way before they have time to rust.
I thought it was because you lose them shooting at does :chuckle:
Post by: D-Rock425 on February 05, 2014, 12:01:49 PM
Post by: RadSav on February 05, 2014, 12:35:12 PM
I got tree blood on that one. I've never really had a problem with rust and I keep a minimum of 20 broadheads on arrows tuned and ready to shoot.
When we finally find a new facility I need to get you down here. Bring those broadheads and we will run them under the scope. I think you will be surprised! Who knows, maybe we'll get out and shoot some Bear and Bowtech bows too :chuckle:
Hopefully we will find a place soon. We are running out of room and need to start looking at hiring again so Lorraine and I can go play more!
Post by: D-Rock425 on February 05, 2014, 01:31:20 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on February 05, 2014, 01:44:03 PM
All my blades from this year are now practice blades but I thought that a one-and-done approach sounded a little overkill (expensive too)
:dunno:
Post by: RadSav on February 05, 2014, 01:54:52 PM
I don't want to see the rust I may or may not have on my broadheads. If there was rust on them I would just have to buy more and the wife gets unhappy. She thinks the 20 or more I keep on hand is already to many. I really do want to shoots some bears I don't care to shoot those bowtechs.
It sure is nice when you track before you shoot instead of after! Super-Sharp really does make a difference when it comes to that.
I'm a little late in getting my 2014 Bear bows. I just couldn't decide between the single and hybrid cam. That's usually an easy decision for me, but dang if these new Bear single cams aren't good shooters. I expect I will have both before the year is over. Sucks to be a bow addict :)
Don't want to shoot a Bowtech? Must be scared it's going to cost you some big money buying all new CPX bows :chuckle: They sure aren't your dads old Bowtech that's for sure ;) Still not sure about the block limb and carbon riser models yet. Not really my thing regardless of who makes 'em.
One of the requirements for the new place will be room enough for a walk through range. We'll have some fun...even if you bring those Hoyts!
Post by: brushhunter on February 05, 2014, 01:58:22 PM
Post by: RadSav on February 05, 2014, 02:12:36 PM
Does anyone besides Smossy throw away blades after one hunt? I never have thought that the rust on my blades would be enough to damage the sharpness within a 2-3 day period.
All my blades from this year are now practice blades but I thought that a one-and-done approach sounded a little overkill (expensive too)
:dunno:
Depends on where you are hunting. Early on in my Savora days we tested stainless vs carbon on Catalina Island and the YO Ranch in Texas. The cross over point where stainless began performing as well as carbon was much more pronounced on Catalina than it was at the YO. While each day led to longer blood trails with both blade materials the environment of Catalina really accelerated the difference each new day brought to the results.
On Catalina first day results with carbon on goats was recovery average of just over ten yards. On day five the average goat recovery was almost 80 yards. Day four carbon and stainless recoveries were the same.
At the YO first day goat results were the same as Catalina. But day five results were still only 45 yards with carbon. And in that five day test at the YO stainless never did catch up to the average recovery distances of carbon.
I expect if we had been closer to Houston the Catalina and Texas results would have been much closer due to similar humidity and salinity.
Post by: Smossy on February 05, 2014, 02:41:48 PM
Post by: demontang on February 05, 2014, 06:38:46 PM
Post by: RadSav on February 05, 2014, 06:49:23 PM
Grades of stainless can vary the edge quality and how much the elements effect it. Im suprised that the broad head world hasnt looked toward some of the new steels like sv40. Its superior to a lot of stainless used now and is way more uniform in the why its made. Theres lots of factors in blade materials and different cost too but in steels you will see a difference in the higher end of steel typs.
The way it grinds and heat treats has a lot to do with stainless for razorblades. And then of course it has to be available in precision strip. AEB-L is the premium material for sport razors at this time. Quality of Slick Trick blades improved dramatically when they switched. I'm really surprised more companies have not gotten on the band wagon. Although they would have to care what end product they produce. And unfortunately many don't >:( Then there are those who don't know there is a difference.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 05, 2014, 07:38:27 PM
I got tree blood on that one. I've never really had a problem with rust and I keep a minimum of 20 broadheads on arrows tuned and ready to shoot.
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Post by: demontang on February 05, 2014, 08:26:13 PM
Post by: RadSav on February 05, 2014, 09:22:20 PM
I guess you are more limited to grinder options for thin blade material as well. I know the way ive made knives it can make a huge difference in blade edge with the type of grinder and grit options there are for them. Id think if the consumer showed interest and could understand the drive behind truly sharp blades it would be different.
Yeah, as stainless has become more and more popular it's harder and harder to find the grinding heads that produced those legendary blade edges Savora produced in the past. We were successful at grinding AEB-L with them, but it took some serious engineering and proprietary grooving of the wheels. I guess that has proved too difficult for most and we can no longer get those grinding heads. We have tried desperately to get the manufacturer to make a special run for us. No matter how much money we throw at the project we keep getting denied. It really is a shame.
Hopefully as we start to see more and more stainless with grinding properties closer to that of 1095 and similar high carbon spring they will begin to reconsider. I have a guy we employ to keep constant pressure on the manufacturer to bring it back or make a special run. But, outside of Gillette no one seems to really give a darn about such micronic differences anymore. Ultimate quality is becoming replaced by ease of use, convenience and profit margins. I believe you are right that if the consumer showed interest and could understand the drive behind truly sharp blades it would be different. Unfortunately when so many end consumers don't seem to care one way or the other it supports this new frame of mind. There are a few of us left out there who will continue to fight for the best. Whether we succeed is yet to be determined.
Post by: demontang on February 05, 2014, 09:33:25 PM
Post by: lokidog on February 06, 2014, 08:57:48 AM
What about using something like RustGuard if a person wasn't worried about a few chemicals?
Post by: Jonathan_S on February 06, 2014, 10:20:18 AM
After 3 day elk hunt this year, i set mym bow back up on the wall. About 3 or 4 days later i went to go to the range and i literally had light orange colored rust all over my blades. :dunno: guess itd just me.
After a wet hunt, I just stuck the business end of my quiver in front of the truck floor heater. When I've got them in storage, I have a satchet of rice in the tupperware with the broadheads to keep moisture from dwelling on the steel.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 06, 2014, 12:03:21 PM
Does anyone besides Smossy throw away blades after one hunt? I never have thought that the rust on my blades would be enough to damage the sharpness within a 2-3 day period.
All my blades from this year are now practice blades but I thought that a one-and-done approach sounded a little overkill (expensive too)
:dunno:
Depends on where you are hunting. Early on in my Savora days we tested stainless vs carbon on Catalina Island and the YO Ranch in Texas. The cross over point where stainless began performing as well as carbon was much more pronounced on Catalina than it was at the YO. While each day led to longer blood trails with both blade materials the environment of Catalina really accelerated the difference each new day brought to the results.
On Catalina first day results with carbon on goats was recovery average of just over ten yards. On day five the average goat recovery was almost 80 yards. Day four carbon and stainless recoveries were the same.
At the YO first day goat results were the same as Catalina. But day five results were still only 45 yards with carbon. And in that five day test at the YO stainless never did catch up to the average recovery distances of carbon.
I expect if we had been closer to Houston the Catalina and Texas results would have been much closer due to similar humidity and salinity.
Rad, First off I do not doubt your knowledge at all, But am wondering about using recovery distances as a reasoning for broadhead steel degradation from rust. Blade sharpness, along with shot placement, animal size and health, terrain, etc., all have effects on recovery distance.(maybe I'm not understanding your testing :dunno:)
Not to downplay the importance of sharp blades, but for the average bowhunter this seems to be a trivial issue with microscopic rusting on blades.
Personally, I have never treated my broadheads with any type of rust preventive, nor have I ever seen any type of rust on my Thunderheads,(lots of blood on em though)
I just buy broadheads and proceed to shoot them thru animals(30 some deer, 12 elk, 3 bears) and have never had a problem with the broadhead being un-effective.
Here is a T-head from a deflected shot in 1994'ish, This is why I am a Thunderhead guy.
Post by: RadSav on February 06, 2014, 02:35:53 PM
Rad, thanks for posting your Catalina/Texas results. That is quite interesting. It might help explain why I didn't seem to get a good blood trail when double lunging, and loosing, a cow elk on Long Island after a week and a half hunt, which I'm sure included splashing salt water on my bow/arrows. :(
What about using something like RustGuard if a person wasn't worried about a few chemicals?
My experience with rust guard was that is became sticky in my quiver. When I pulled an arrow I would get bits and pieces of the quiver foam stuck to the blades. Nothing worse than having an animal standing there watching you try and get foam off your blades before you can shoot :chuckle: It's good stuff for protection though. I treat all our molds with the stuff after each use. About eight years on the same molds and most look almost new today.
Post by: MLBowhunting on February 06, 2014, 02:49:19 PM
Post by: RadSav on February 06, 2014, 04:39:39 PM
Rad, First off I do not doubt your knowledge at all, But am wondering about using recovery distances as a reasoning for broadhead steel degradation from rust. Blade sharpness, along with shot placement, animal size and health, terrain, etc., all have effects on recovery distance.(maybe I'm not understanding your testing :dunno:)
Not to downplay the importance of sharp blades, but for the average bowhunter this seems to be a trivial issue with microscopic rusting on blades.
Personally, I have never treated my broadheads with any type of rust preventive, nor have I ever seen any type of rust on my Thunderheads,(lots of blood on em though)
I just buy broadheads and proceed to shoot them thru animals(30 some deer, 12 elk, 3 bears) and have never had a problem with the broadhead being un-effective.
One of the many reasons for testing on goats is they are nearly all the same size. So that puts a pretty solid base line for comparison. Savora always followed the test parameters they used in Africa in the Chapinda Pools testing. X amount of animals this day shot in this part of the anatomy. X amount of animal shot the next day in the same area. Shots and data separated by shot location within the vitals.
Say you have six goats killed day one with liver shots. The average distance traveled is X yards. Next day same number of animals taken with similar shots and the average distance traveled is XX yards. Next day XXX yards....and so on. How can the progressively longer distances animals travel be effected by anything more than blade sharpness when all the other variables remain the same? Same little island, same sized goats, same time of year, same equipment. Only difference being is each days test broadheads were assembled and set out exposed to the environment during the course of the testing period. Same thing can also be asked as to why in the first few days carbon steel always averaged fewer recovery yards than stainless.
That microscopic edge difference was enough that after the C.Pools testing the Rhodesian government was going to reinstate legal bowhunting as long as stainless blades were not used. It took some doing for Savora to convince them that while not as effective stainless was still exceeding the criteria. It was the overall variance between the two when placed on paper that made it difficult for the government to agree.
You are right that the average bowhunter is probably going to find it trivial. Most bowhunters don't really care. In fact the vast majority of bowhunters take up the sport because they get to shoot does and cows (not that there is anything wrong with that). But that shouldn't have any baring on us who try to educate. And it definitely should not effect a manufacturer from trying to produce the very best if at the same time the product can still create sales and pay the bills.
After I won the Super-2 award back in the 80's the owner of the company approached me and said, "34 animals, three Pope & Young animals and the biggest bull elk in the competition! You must really like this broadhead?" My future with the company came to an abrupt halt when I responded, "No, not really. I had to blood trail every single one of these animals. Every single one! The first elk I shot four times, the second elk I shot four times, the Big elk I shot a second time the following day. While I successfully harvested every single animal I shot this year none of the kills were overly efficient. We've got some work to do if I am going to continue shooting and promoting this product." Guess he figured the product was good enough and my attitude was not. Maybe, just maybe, that's why I'm still in the industry and he is not :dunno: :chuckle:
Because of the stainless structure of the Thunderhead and other well constructed stainless broadheads once that initial loss in sharpness has been done the damage progresses very slow. Especially if kept in a good environment outside of the quiver foam. But, the most effective results you are ever going to experience with any blade will be in the first few days they are out of the package. If not replacing the blades some sort of treatment is better than none. It won't return them to new, but when trying to maintain the highest efficiency for the longest period of time it's good insurance. Not sure PAM is my first choice due to the amount of water in it, but I do like to see guys at least trying to keep their broadheads as sharp as possible.
Post by: TONTO on February 06, 2014, 05:38:41 PM
Anyhow as far as putting something on them how about Bore Butter? Protects a muzzle loader from rust, it's food grade, and got a nice minty smell the deer may even like :dunno:
Post by: RadSav on February 06, 2014, 06:11:54 PM
Anyhow as far as putting something on them how about Bore Butter? Protects a muzzle loader from rust, it's food grade, and got a nice minty smell the deer may even like :dunno:
Hmmm. I've never even thought about that! Might be time to break out the scope and do some more lab testing. Seriously got my interest with that one :tup:
Post by: snarkybull on February 06, 2014, 06:31:14 PM
One of the many reasons for testing on goats is they are nearly all the same size. So that puts a pretty solid base line for comparison. Savora always followed the test parameters they used in Africa in the Chapinda Pools testing. X amount of animals this day shot in this part of the anatomy. X amount of animal shot the next day in the same area. Shots and data separated by shot location within the vitals.
Say you have six goats killed day one with liver shots. The average distance traveled is X yards. Next day same number of animals taken with similar shots and the average distance traveled is XX yards. Next day XXX yards....and so on. How can the progressively longer distances animals travel be effected by anything more than blade sharpness when all the other variables remain the same? Same little island, same sized goats, same time of year, same equipment. Only difference being is each days test broadheads were assembled and set out exposed to the environment during the course of the testing period. Same thing can also be asked as to why in the first few days carbon steel always averaged fewer recovery yards than stainless.
nice. i like the basic design of your study. i will caution you, however, not to get married to conclusions so early. there are always many factors that could influence the results without proper repetitions (preferably with different animals of differing size). for instance, were the animals selected in a truly random manner? or did size/behavior/findability/patterns play a factor? how was the weather? any little changes can alter animal behavior. and of course the biggest variable of all is usually human. bias can creep into even the most guarded places.
again, nicely done and a solid hypothesis :) i just feel nitpicky today :chuckle:
Post by: RadSav on February 06, 2014, 07:38:26 PM
When one test in Africa, two tests on Catalina and one test in Texas all produce equivalent results I think we can start looking past slight variables and accept results as reasonable foundation if validity. These tests were conducted over many years and with the assistance of the government of Rhodesia when in Africa before the province name change. So I'm not sure where we might have married to conclusions too early. :dunno:
Then you factor in multiple printed studies in regards to metallurgical testing and medical/clinical testing and you can begin to narrow the focuses even further. The science of coagulation and effects upon the formation of blood platelets and the body's reaction to trapped white blood cells and the introduction of oxygen and other related triggers has been well documented in the medical field over the course of many decades. You combine that with the expansive reports of metallurgical compositions and the way each material reacts to different environmental contaminants one can be comfortable in finding base lines for what should be expected in field studies. Then when those field studies do reflect what the hypothesis of the sciences tells you is expected you can find reasonable certainty in your results.
As with all scientific studies the rule is, Only when we know all of the questions can we come up with some of the answers. By keeping an open mind and utilizing questions and answers from multiple levels of the related sciences testing can be relied upon with a degree of certainty. But a test group must always be aware that for results to have a chance of reflecting a reasonable amount of reality ALL answers and results must be accepted. Not just those that support the conjecture and supposition of the human disposition that created it.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on February 06, 2014, 08:01:16 PM
Post by: MLBowhunting on February 06, 2014, 08:07:57 PM