Post by: C-Money on March 12, 2014, 09:09:18 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on March 12, 2014, 09:18:13 AM
Post by: bobcat on March 12, 2014, 09:18:29 AM
Of course if you have a westside tag you can try the general season for branch antler bulls as well.
Post by: Woodchuck on March 12, 2014, 09:20:16 AM
Post by: jackelope on March 12, 2014, 09:29:08 AM
:twocents:
Post by: RB on March 12, 2014, 09:30:43 AM
I wouldn't.:yeah: X2
:twocents:
Post by: boneaddict on March 12, 2014, 09:33:34 AM
Post by: kentrek on March 12, 2014, 09:34:36 AM
You could apply for Toutle. It's one of the easiest draws in the state. Not as many elk as there used to be but if you just want to draw a bull permit that would be the one an also try for the Margaret which is in the "bull" category and not "quality" like the Toutle.
Of course if you have a westside tag you can try the general season for branch antler bulls as well.
No offense bobcat but the toutle is a joke, I wouldn't even hunt there if it was a general unit... Margaret would be fine for your reg bull but def dont waste your 12 quality points on the toutle
Post by: Slimdog350 on March 12, 2014, 09:42:38 AM
I agree with kentrek. The toutle is not what it used to be. I've been all over that unit and I've seen the number of quality bulls go way down. I wouldn't spend 12 points on that unit either. Although if you do end up putting in and drawing it I can pm you a few spots to check out. :tup:You could apply for Toutle. It's one of the easiest draws in the state. Not as many elk as there used to be but if you just want to draw a bull permit that would be the one an also try for the Margaret which is in the "bull" category and not "quality" like the Toutle.
Of course if you have a westside tag you can try the general season for branch antler bulls as well.
No offense bobcat but the toutle is a joke, I wouldn't even hunt there if it was a general unit... Margaret would be fine for your reg bull but def dont waste your 12 quality points on the toutle
Post by: bobcat on March 12, 2014, 09:46:42 AM
You could apply for Toutle. It's one of the easiest draws in the state. Not as many elk as there used to be but if you just want to draw a bull permit that would be the one an also try for the Margaret which is in the "bull" category and not "quality" like the Toutle.
Of course if you have a westside tag you can try the general season for branch antler bulls as well.
No offense bobcat but the toutle is a joke, I wouldn't even hunt there if it was a general unit... Margaret would be fine for your reg bull but def dont waste your 12 quality points on the toutle
I don't necessarily disagree with that but he was looking for options. It's at least a way to do a relatively "easy" elk hunt, due to the extensive road system, and have a limited number of hunters in the unit.
If he simply wants to draw a permit, THIS YEAR, that would still be my recommendation. I'll tell you what IS a joke- the general season in the Winston unit. Now that is total chaos and would not be a fun experience for someone not familiar with the unit.
There are some good opportunities for the general season if you have access to horses or are able and willing to hike in 5 or 6 miles.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 12, 2014, 09:52:14 AM
I will not be putting in for toutle again except for possibly the sept rifle tag.
If I am going to burn my quality points I want a big bull now.
Post by: bullcanyon on March 12, 2014, 09:56:58 AM
Post by: kentrek on March 12, 2014, 09:59:58 AM
Not to get off topic but id hate to see him use up a dozen points just to find out what I already know
Just my :twocents:
Post by: bowman31 on March 12, 2014, 10:01:52 AM
Post by: snowpack on March 12, 2014, 10:03:25 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on March 12, 2014, 10:31:12 AM
You should be able to draw any of the Yak tags with that many points or have a dang good shot at it.Which hunts are those?
You should be able to draw bumping, little naches, bethel, and rimrock easily. I would switch to muzzy and hunt the eastside if you are desperate on cashing in :twocents:For rifle hunts in little naches, bethel, rimrock with 12 points you are looking at about 1 in 100 odds. Eastside muzzy is a little better...1 in 50ish.
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,148317.0.html (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,148317.0.html)
The above link may be helpful for figuring out your chances.
Post by: boneaddict on March 12, 2014, 10:37:22 AM
Post by: bobcat on March 12, 2014, 10:41:43 AM
Post by: boneaddict on March 12, 2014, 10:49:35 AM
Wondering, is the math per tag, and if there are 20 tags its ___________odds, or is the 1 in 100 the end game with number of tags considered.
also curious if this takes in 4 different or is it 2 now, units to choose from?
Post by: jackelope on March 12, 2014, 10:50:12 AM
Boneaddict, you talking archery permits, or rifle? Even if those were archery permits, your luck is well above average if you draw every four years.
I assume he's talking archery permits. Average points to draw Rimrock or Bethel for the sake of conversation was 5 in 2012. We'll know what the 2013 averages are when the reg's come out.
Post by: jackelope on March 12, 2014, 10:50:53 AM
Boneaddict, you talking archery permits, or rifle? Even if those were archery permits, your luck is well above average if you draw every four years.
I assume he's talking archery permits. Average points to draw Rimrock or Bethel for the sake of conversation was 5 in 2012. We'll know what the 2013 averages are when the reg's come out.
Rifle permits average for the same permits was 11.
Post by: bobcat on March 12, 2014, 11:01:06 AM
Just as an example, look at the Peaches Ridge early rifle permit. There was one permit and in 2012, 1102 people applied.
It shows average points is 4. So does that mean a person will draw that permit every four years?
Post by: Harbor_hunter on March 12, 2014, 11:03:44 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on March 12, 2014, 11:27:14 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on March 12, 2014, 11:37:06 AM
I mix them up so hard to say on that. I was thinking rifle in my mind as I was also considering what my dad drew and what my wife has drawn.(average 3 points)Yes, math is your odds of drawing 1 of those 20 (or whatever) tags...your odds are a little higher when you factor in your multiple choices which are not reflected in the odds I calculate. But yes, if you are drawing rifle little naches/bethel/rimrock tags every 4 years or so...you are a) astronomically lucky or b) mailing an extra couple of $100 bills to the guy who runs the draw :chuckle: :chuckle:
Wondering, is the math per tag, and if there are 20 tags its ___________odds, or is the 1 in 100 the end game with number of tags considered.
also curious if this takes in 4 different or is it 2 now, units to choose from?
Post by: jackelope on March 12, 2014, 11:51:07 AM
Average points of the people who drew permits means nothing. Idahohunter has calculated all the odds. That's what you need to look at.
Just as an example, look at the Peaches Ridge early rifle permit. There was one permit and in 2012, 1102 people applied.
It shows average points is 4. So does that mean a person will draw that permit every four years?
No, it doesn't. But does anything show exactly when you'll draw?
It's a good guideline maybe. Not when there's only 1 permit I guess.
Post by: Curly on March 12, 2014, 11:56:05 AM
Post by: jackelope on March 12, 2014, 12:04:43 PM
Has anyone mentioned multi-season permit yet? That seems like the way to go. Get drawn for the multi season permit, then you can apply for eastside draws while having a westside tag. Then if you don't draw an eastside permit, just hunt for branch bulls during general season on the westside.
The only problem with that is that it's getting to be as hard to draw a MS elk permit as it is drawing a big bull permit.
:dunno:
Post by: Bob33 on March 12, 2014, 12:15:17 PM
They serve one, and only one purpose: giving applicants who do not understand how the draw works an unrealistic hope of drawing when they are close to having "average points."
Post by: Woodchuck on March 12, 2014, 12:20:38 PM
Post by: jackelope on March 12, 2014, 12:22:58 PM
Post by: Bob33 on March 12, 2014, 12:40:34 PM
An application with 11 points had a 2.1% chance of drawing.
Post by: idahohuntr on March 12, 2014, 01:29:00 PM
I know where I want to hunt and that's where I apply for.Hard to go wrong with this logic.
Post by: C-Money on March 12, 2014, 02:05:58 PM
Post by: Bob33 on March 12, 2014, 02:10:19 PM
I suspect hunters will begin to start looking harder at the second tier permits. "I'm getting too old to wait much longer on drawing a Blues/Colockum/etc. bull permit; what can I draw with 10 to 15 points?"
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on March 12, 2014, 02:42:39 PM
Post by: jstone on March 12, 2014, 02:58:01 PM
Post by: Tbar on March 12, 2014, 03:00:07 PM
As an example, hunt 2006 (Dayton Quality Elk) in 2013 offered 12 permits. There were 1311 applications. The "average points" of all applications was 7.2. The "average points" for successful applicants was 11.That's depressing.
An application with 11 points had a 2.1% chance of drawing.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on March 12, 2014, 04:43:59 PM
Save your points, no elk on the west side, otherwise they would all be in the back of trucks at McDonalds, :chuckle:I know where I want to hunt and that's where I apply for.Hard to go wrong with this logic.
Really, almost every unit has possibilities, learn a unit well while you build points and you stand a better chance when drawn than hunting a unit you know nothing about.
Post by: baker5150 on March 13, 2014, 07:47:26 AM
I got a guest room for ya, and it'll only cost you 1 steak and 6 beers.
Post by: ELKBURGER on March 13, 2014, 09:37:28 AM
NooksackPer night!
I got a guest room for ya, and it'll only cost you 1 steak and 6 beers.
Post by: Skillet on March 13, 2014, 10:01:50 AM
It is unsustainable unless they call it what it is - you have a very slim chance - even with top points - to draw a popular tag in any given year. The WDFW had effectively turned it from a "wait your turn" thing into a lottery with odds that in 10 years or so will approximate a Powerball drawing...
The expansion of the drawing categories you can apply for in a single year single instantly put most people in bad shape in terms of drawing a tag. A 15 elk point guy waiting to draw his Colockum bull tag instantly had 15 points in every elk category. That right there created the same number of additional names in the cow tag hat as 225 brand new hunters applying for the cow tag for the first time.
I am really surprised anybody still plays this game in Washington with the odds being what they are. :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on March 13, 2014, 10:08:47 AM
Quote
I am really surprised anybody still plays this game in Washington with the odds being what they are.
Some of us can't afford to hunt out of state every year, especially with $4/gallon gas.
If gas prices and non resident tag prices were cut in half, I would give up on this state, for both deer and elk.
But for now I'm stuck here, and I'm not the type to quit hunting and take up fishing instead.
Post by: Skillet on March 13, 2014, 10:32:50 AM
If I really wanted to have a shot at a big bull on a classic western elk hunt before I got too dang old to do it, I'd be stuffing every spare dollar I could in the piggy bank and would do a "trip of a lifetime" drop camp hunt with guaranteed tags somewhere. My knees are only going to hold up to that type of hunt for so long, and it isn't long enough to risk not doing the hunt ever in my lifetime by depending on Washington's draw system to work for me.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on March 13, 2014, 11:42:34 AM
IMO a quality elk hunt, means ( not in order ). 1) Great season timing and/or more time to hunt. 2) I will be into ELK with minimal scouting. 3) The opportunity for an above to well above average bull exist and will be based primarily on my scouting effort and hunt time frame.
It is my belief that very few tags exist in W.Washington that meet all of the criteria. Some of the rifle rut tags excluded, even if you pull a "quality" tag you will still need to either scout significantly to locate elk. Or you will readily locate elk, but the bulls will not be above average and hunt timing not great. Enter bulk of St. Helens quality tags here.
I would not burn 12 points on any tag that didn't offer the possibility of rut timing, or an extended season. If it were me and I was dead set on hunting over here, I would be looking at Goat Rocks, Lewis river, Adams. Etc.... Its closer to you than alot of the other units and is a 2 week hunt in what is generally considered prime rut timing. One option might be to apply for one of these and if unsuccesful hunt the general season westside. It would be an opportunity to become familiar with the terrain, and area and possibly get into a branched bull on a OTC tag. :twocents:
Post by: jackelope on March 13, 2014, 11:43:33 AM
QuoteI am really surprised anybody still plays this game in Washington with the odds being what they are.
Some of us can't afford to hunt out of state every year, especially with $4/gallon gas.
If gas prices and non resident tag prices were cut in half, I would give up on this state, for both deer and elk.
But for now I'm stuck here, and I'm not the type to quit hunting and take up fishing instead.
I'd rather take the chance at drawing a tag over the price to hunt out of state. With non-res permit prices, it puts me out of the game at this point. If I don't draw elk, I usually won't hunt elk. Usually someone in my circle of friends has drawn a permit.
:dunno:
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 13, 2014, 11:46:29 AM
"Average points" are utterly worthless in computing draw odds.
They serve one, and only one purpose: giving applicants who do not understand how the draw works an unrealistic hope of drawing when they are close to having "average points."
:yeah:
I think people have an unrealistic expectation of drawing with any amount of points. The chances of drawing with 25 points, in many instances, are still abysmally low.
Post by: Skillet on March 13, 2014, 12:54:01 PM
QuoteI am really surprised anybody still plays this game in Washington with the odds being what they are.
Some of us can't afford to hunt out of state every year, especially with $4/gallon gas.
If gas prices and non resident tag prices were cut in half, I would give up on this state, for both deer and elk.
But for now I'm stuck here, and I'm not the type to quit hunting and take up fishing instead.
I'd rather take the chance at drawing a tag over the price to hunt out of state. With non-res permit prices, it puts me out of the game at this point. If I don't draw elk, I usually won't hunt elk. Usually someone in my circle of friends has drawn a permit.
:dunno:
I hear what you guys are saying, but it seems to me there is still a general idea of "I have x number of points, so I should draw this year". This was probably true 10 years ago, but big point numbers means less and less as the years go by - especially the year that the WDFW re-rigged the applications for "more opportunity". I think it is pretty sad, because I know of a guy here that has max points and would likely end up on the cover of Eastman's if he could draw a tag. He's as hard working and deserving a guy as I know of, and knowing his odds are going down every year is just a bummer.
I think guys just need to get their minds around the idea it is just becoming more of a moon-shot lottery with every passing year.
Post by: idahohuntr on March 13, 2014, 03:14:36 PM
Points are obviously becoming worth less and less...I think something needs to be done about draw odds. I know a lot of people would hate it but I think the best solution is to limit choices...do like Idaho...you get 1 elk and 1 deer OR any One choice for moose, sheep, goat. This at least makes the more marginal and antlerless tags substantially easier to draw. Tough tags will still be tough to get but your points will be worth more.
Post by: deltaops on March 13, 2014, 03:43:52 PM
I was thinking about putting in for the multi season deer, decided not to do it. I will buy my regular tag and pretty much stick to that. If I could give you points, I would take your money instead. :chuckle:
Or if anyone wants you can donate money to me and who ever donates more money will get a chance to have deer meat after next season. My hunts are not guaranteed. :yike:
Post by: bobcat on March 13, 2014, 03:48:56 PM
Points are obviously becoming worth less and less...I think something needs to be done about draw odds. I know a lot of people would hate it but I think the best solution is to limit choices...do like Idaho...you get 1 elk and 1 deer OR any One choice for moose, sheep, goat. This at least makes the more marginal and antlerless tags substantially easier to draw. Tough tags will still be tough to get but your points will be worth more.
Limit us to only one species and my odds of drawing deer or elk goes to zero. I would be putting in for moose. So, I prefer it the way it is.
Post by: MtnMuley on March 13, 2014, 03:50:04 PM
:yeah:
Points are obviously becoming worth less and less...I think something needs to be done about draw odds. I know a lot of people would hate it but I think the best solution is to limit choices...do like Idaho...you get 1 elk and 1 deer OR any One choice for moose, sheep, goat. This at least makes the more marginal and antlerless tags substantially easier to draw. Tough tags will still be tough to get but your points will be worth more.
I would agree and support that solution too, however, it will never happen here due to the lack of revenue it would cause. If you're not familiar with Washington, we are a 100% revenue over game management state.
Post by: vandeman17 on March 13, 2014, 04:07:00 PM
Non resident tags are spendy but worth it. I save up for them each year and also save my vacation time each year. It is pretty much part of my yearly budget so I cut other spending. I also work with a buddy each summer after work hydroseeding and that brings me in about $1500 per summer as well as giving me a good workout. That pretty much pays for my out of state trip each year.
Post by: idahohuntr on March 13, 2014, 04:20:42 PM
Yep, that is what the sacrifice would have to be...like I said, I know a lot of people would hate it...I doubt you could get more than 20 or 30% support for any change to an existing point system in any state...EVER :chuckle:Points are obviously becoming worth less and less...I think something needs to be done about draw odds. I know a lot of people would hate it but I think the best solution is to limit choices...do like Idaho...you get 1 elk and 1 deer OR any One choice for moose, sheep, goat. This at least makes the more marginal and antlerless tags substantially easier to draw. Tough tags will still be tough to get but your points will be worth more.
Limit us to only one species and my odds of drawing deer or elk goes to zero. I would be putting in for moose. So, I prefer it the way it is.
I would agree and support that solution too, however, it will never happen here due to the lack of revenue it would cause. If you're not familiar with Washington, we are a 100% revenue over game management state.:chuckle: I've discussed this with WDFW leaders before and I think you could implement this limited choice and maintain revenues a couple of ways: increase application fees and/or allow point purchases for the species you don't apply for (e.g., if you put in for moose they could still allow you to buy points for deer and elk).
Post by: rtspring on March 13, 2014, 04:34:11 PM
The general rifle any bull is past the rut, much harder to hunt unless you know the area.
You draw the tag, and I can find you a bull.. Drawing is the hardest part.. The muzzy hunt is incredibly fun.
Rtspring
Post by: vandeman17 on March 13, 2014, 04:37:14 PM
Post by: mtman on March 13, 2014, 08:42:57 PM
Post by: Bullkllr on March 13, 2014, 08:49:39 PM
don't more people do it the other way around? I mean hunt west cause it's closer to home, rack up points cause there's limited hunts to put in for, then go east when they feel like they have points to have a shot at a Yak or Blues tag? Seems like I've heard of some doing that.
Post by: jackelope on March 13, 2014, 09:40:47 PM
I think I would go along with that route if I was still allowed to buy ghost points in the other categories. I would have to crunch the numbers but I think that the elite tags like colockum bull and such would still be tough to draw but the middle tiers would be easier. It would give a guy the choice to either go for the home run or put in for a mid level bull and hopefully draw a tag a little more often. Heck I don't know. I have given up on WA and once I use my 10 deer points I am done with the points game here. :IBCOOL:
Why are you not allowed to buy points??
Post by: bobcat on March 13, 2014, 10:33:42 PM
I think I would go along with that route if I was still allowed to buy ghost points in the other categories. I would have to crunch the numbers but I think that the elite tags like colockum bull and such would still be tough to draw but the middle tiers would be easier. It would give a guy the choice to either go for the home run or put in for a mid level bull and hopefully draw a tag a little more often. Heck I don't know. I have given up on WA and once I use my 10 deer points I am done with the points game here. :IBCOOL:
Why are you not allowed to buy points??
He was responding to the idea of restricting people to applying for only one specie each year. His suggestion was to allow people to buy points in all the other categories, even though they could not apply for an actual hunt in those categories.
Post by: ELKBURGER on March 14, 2014, 08:18:54 AM
This may have been mentioned:That is my thought. As a westsider, I have been buying ghost points for quality and hunting local. I hope to apply for multi season, then if not selected buy eastside tag and start applying for a quality hunt. Odds suck for sure no matter what you do.
don't more people do it the other way around? I mean hunt west cause it's closer to home, rack up points cause there's limited hunts to put in for, then go east when they feel like they have points to have a shot at a Yak or Blues tag? Seems like I've heard of some doing that.
Post by: C-Money on March 14, 2014, 08:57:29 AM
Post by: Ccortez on March 14, 2014, 09:09:48 AM
Thanks to everyone who sent a PM or replied here. Lots of great advise. I really like the black powder idea, but that is usually the same weekend as Oregon Mod deer opener.
I would take up RT's offer and do the muzzle loader hunt for peaches. He would get you on a nice bull for sure
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on March 14, 2014, 09:29:30 AM
This may have been mentioned:That was my plan, but after spending 5 years hunting west-side, it would take a lot of points for me to even consider going back to EA, unless drawn for Multi at the same time.
don't more people do it the other way around? I mean hunt west cause it's closer to home, rack up points cause there's limited hunts to put in for, then go east when they feel like they have points to have a shot at a Yak or Blues tag? Seems like I've heard of some doing that.