Post by: singleshot12 on March 16, 2014, 11:56:26 AM
I wonder if that has ever been considered by dfw and or the pro-wolf(predator) people? Just trying to make sense of the madness and think positive about this whole predator take over the world philosophy we are surrounded by :rolleyes: :dunno:
Post by: Bean Counter on March 16, 2014, 12:07:20 PM
Post by: Bob33 on March 16, 2014, 12:13:07 PM
Which would you rather see survive?
Post by: singleshot12 on March 16, 2014, 12:14:44 PM
I'm thinking that a solo cougar could take a solo wolf. Last I remember they were finding a lot more cougar meat in wolf poo than vice versa. Makes me think that a pack of wolves has no qualms hunting a lone lion.
Post by: singleshot12 on March 16, 2014, 12:15:55 PM
A cougar can eat two deer a week. A wolf eats 20 deer per year.
Which would you rather see survive?
One wolf eats 20 deer a week? or one pack?
Would rather see both on the endangered species list :chuckle:
Post by: buckfvr on March 16, 2014, 12:16:37 PM
Regardless of who kills how many a year or week.....they all need more agressive management. :twocents:
Post by: wolfbait on March 16, 2014, 12:17:02 PM
As we have seen in the past two wolves can take down just about anything except a grizzly bear. Unless it is in the winter, where wolves have been known to get groggy bears out of their dens, and play with them until they are walking around in their own guts.
Post by: wolfbait on March 16, 2014, 12:19:31 PM
A cougar can eat two deer a week. A wolf eats 20 deer per year.
Which would you rather see survive?
How big are the deer you are referring to Bob33? The reason I ask is it has been well documented that one wolf will kill 22 to 28 elk per year, that does not include surplus killings.
Post by: Bob33 on March 16, 2014, 12:21:11 PM
An average wolf is estimated to eat 20 deer per year, plus or minus.A cougar can eat two deer a week. A wolf eats 20 deer per year.
Which would you rather see survive?
One wolf eats 20 deer a week? or one pack?
Would rather see both on the endangered species list :chuckle:
Post by: wolfbait on March 16, 2014, 12:23:19 PM
Post by: snowpack on March 16, 2014, 12:29:16 PM
Post by: buckfvr on March 16, 2014, 12:30:53 PM
Cougars are different then wolves, in the fact they will bury their kills and eat on them later, wolves eat their fill and go kill again. Past studies reported that one cougar will kill fifty deer per year.
Provided the weather is right, and yotes and bears dont take over the kill.....at certain times of the year, cats kill fresh each time they feed. ( you already know that ), just throwing it out there for those who arent in proximity to any significant numbers of predators.
Post by: buckfvr on March 16, 2014, 12:32:40 PM
Yellowstone wolves ate around 26 elk per year per wolf.
WHere wolves are concerned, eating and killing are two subjects..................
Post by: singleshot12 on March 16, 2014, 12:43:36 PM
All I know is my cat will play with and kill birds and rodents on a full belly so would think cougars would be the same :chuckle:
Post by: singleshot12 on March 16, 2014, 12:47:22 PM
An average wolf is estimated to eat 20 deer per year, plus or minus.A cougar can eat two deer a week. A wolf eats 20 deer per year.
Which would you rather see survive?
One wolf eats 20 deer a week? or one pack?
Would rather see both on the endangered species list :chuckle:
Ok gotcha! I mis read your post. 20 deer a year per wolf makes more sense
Post by: cougarbart on March 16, 2014, 12:50:31 PM
Post by: Bob33 on March 16, 2014, 12:55:43 PM
problem is deer are not a species of choice for wolves! thats like saying cougars eat 20 turkeys a year, turkeys are not choice species for cougars!They are for more hunters than any other specie.
Post by: singleshot12 on March 16, 2014, 01:07:00 PM
problem is deer are not a species of choice for wolves! thats like saying cougars eat 20 turkeys a year, turkeys are not choice species for cougars!They are for more hunters than any other specie.
Which comes to mind that man is the top predator thus making it natural to eliminate competition. But also makes you wonder maybe it's the human race that's out of control and needs to be managed...lol
Post by: wolfbait on March 16, 2014, 02:05:14 PM
So wolves are pack animals and cougars usually solo. Wolves kill and keep killing after their fill. Cougars kill once bury and come back till they finish it? And in one on one combat the cougar usually wins correct?
All I know is my cat will play with and kill birds and rodents on a full belly so would think cougars would be the same :chuckle:
As Buckfvr stated cougars will kill everyday, I have ridden through cougar "ambush" sites and found deer laying all over half eaten, they mostly just ate into liver etc.. In 2008 we fed over a hundred head of deer with our horses and mules, one night a cougar came through and killed 7 first year fawns, never ate a bit just killed them to kill. This year we had six deer.
A few days ago a friend of mine found where a wolf had run a coyote into a woven wire fence, killed it and then ate it. This was within a mile of Twisp.
Post by: wolfbait on March 16, 2014, 02:39:37 PM
A cougar can eat two deer a week. A wolf eats 20 deer per year.
Which would you rather see survive?
The USFWS illegally introduced wolves, and as many have seen it tip the balance of management in a very negative way. In some states predators such as cougars and bears are managed. WDFW have their own state endangered listing for wolves, and they continue to protect predators, and refuse to acknowledge the impact on the game herds. My guess with WDFW BS'ing the brain-washed things are not likely to change.
Post by: luvtohnt on March 16, 2014, 03:11:23 PM
A few days ago a friend of mine found where a wolf had run a coyote into a woven wire fence, killed it and then ate it. This was within a mile of Twisp.
Did he watch this happen? If not how does he know the wolf killed the coyote?
problem is deer are not a species of choice for wolves! thats like saying cougars eat 20 turkeys a year, turkeys are not choice species for cougars!
If deer are not a preffered prey species what does the lookout pack eat? (and dont say domestic stock)
Brandon
Post by: wolfbait on March 16, 2014, 05:57:33 PM
A few days ago a friend of mine found where a wolf had run a coyote into a woven wire fence, killed it and then ate it. This was within a mile of Twisp.
Did he watch this happen? If not how does he know the wolf killed the coyote?problem is deer are not a species of choice for wolves! thats like saying cougars eat 20 turkeys a year, turkeys are not choice species for cougars!
If deer are not a preffered prey species what does the lookout pack eat? (and dont say domestic stock)
Brandon
Are your the same luvtohnt that sided with jackelope and wacoyote back in 2009 and 10? The settle down and wait for delisting crew?
Can you read sign? I'm sure you don't have much trouble with stop signs, but have you ever been able to tell what killed what by the tracks on the ground, or haven't they taught you that yet in college?
Wolf tracks and other sign prove the wolf killed and ate the coyote, I might even be able to show you some pictures, but first I need permission. I will see if I can post them.
As far as wolves and their prey, wolves will kill anything and everything to survive, but you already know that. Are you working for WDFW as a biologist yet?
Post by: Humptulips on March 16, 2014, 06:27:30 PM
Cougars are different then wolves, in the fact they will bury their kills and eat on them later, wolves eat their fill and go kill again. Past studies reported that one cougar will kill fifty deer per year.
I don't believe this is true as a rule. I've seen quite a few cougar kills and my Dad was a long time houndman so chased a number. Here's what I think happens or at least what I've observed. A cougar or family of cougar makes a kill they will fill up and then go lay up somewhere to digest. When they get up they go hunting. If they make another kill they don't go back to the first. So I think in a area with plentiful game often you will find cougar kills that have been eaten on once or twice and a lot left. If the game is scarce they will keep going back until it is cleaned up or near cleaned up.
I really don't think it matters a lot. They are both unmanaged predator populations in this state and their effect is additive.
Post by: cougarbart on March 16, 2014, 06:33:27 PM
Post by: luvtohnt on March 16, 2014, 06:44:08 PM
Yes, I can read sign as well as anyone. But I dont jump to conclusions, and assume that just because there are tracks whatever made those tracks is the culprit. Maybe the coyote was running from dogs or another rancher when he got tangled in the wire. Wolves as well as coyotes are very scent oriented, so the smell of a dead coyote could attract a hungry wolf. I would love to see pictures, maybe I could learn something
FYI, no I am not a WDFW biologist (yet)
Brandon
Post by: luvtohnt on March 16, 2014, 06:53:43 PM
brandon! i would be willing to bet elk, and moose are the preferred species! mostly because these two species are known to stop and fight wolves! im not saying deer aren't on their diet but i know the strawberry pack really preferred moose when they moved into that area! i have also noticed in idaho where we hunt the wolves really go after the moose and elk!
If they are present it would depend on density. Usually (from my extensive reading) the ungulate species with the highest density becomes the preffered food source.There is a very, very limited supply of moose and elk in the Methow valley, but the Lookout pack seems to flourish. There was even a pack in Yellowstone that preffered bison even though elk were plentiful. Just my :twocents:
Post by: cougarbart on March 16, 2014, 07:05:38 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on March 16, 2014, 07:33:31 PM
My opinion is wolves in most area's are the top predator, a lion can take on two wolves but any more and wolves have the upper hand
Post by: bearpaw on March 16, 2014, 07:40:44 PM
From what I've seen you are both correct, depends on the cougar, some bury, some don't. The majority of kills I find are mostly eaten if the cat has been left undisturbed, I'm often amazed at how little is left. I've also seen cats come back a week or two later (during winter) to dig up and chew on bones from an earlier kill. Sometimes they do leave uneaten portions, but often I think that might have been caused by human, dog, or other disturbance. Wolves will also steal their kills, although I haven't personally seen that yet, I know guys who have seen it a lot in areas with more wolves.Cougars are different then wolves, in the fact they will bury their kills and eat on them later, wolves eat their fill and go kill again. Past studies reported that one cougar will kill fifty deer per year.
I don't believe this is true as a rule. I've seen quite a few cougar kills and my Dad was a long time houndman so chased a number. Here's what I think happens or at least what I've observed. A cougar or family of cougar makes a kill they will fill up and then go lay up somewhere to digest. When they get up they go hunting. If they make another kill they don't go back to the first. So I think in a area with plentiful game often you will find cougar kills that have been eaten on once or twice and a lot left. If the game is scarce they will keep going back until it is cleaned up or near cleaned up.
I really don't think it matters a lot. They are both unmanaged predator populations in this state and their effect is additive.
oh they will adapt to whatever food source they need to survive! I know the cct tribe has been doing research on the couple of packs on their rez and moose have been the preferred choice in the early stages of residency! They say mule deer is preferred prey of a cougar, doesn't mean whitetail and turkeys don't hit the menu! They adapt to whatever prey is abundant! My guess is the lookout pack will move south to the bigger elk herds before to long!:yeah: I think they target the abundant specie in their area, but a guy I know on one study told me they found evidence of every type of animal in wolf poo. Even cougar and grizzly! Cougars will do the same, whatever gets in the way is on the menu, and occasionally that is wolf or even hound. It's all a matter of survival, people have even eat other people at times to survive.
Post by: boneaddict on March 17, 2014, 07:40:59 AM
Do they and do they eat them? anyone know? Since we can't really manage them ourselves properly, sure would be nice if cougars did fill their gut with K-9 meat rather than deer and elk.
I wonder if that has ever been considered by dfw and or the pro-wolf(predator) people? Just trying to make sense of the madness and think positive about this whole predator take over the world philosophy we are surrounded by :rolleyes: :dunno:
Most of the time wolves run the cats off their kills. We watched it for a couple winters. Idabooner had the best entertainment this state could afford.
A cat could kill a wolf and probably wouldn't hesitate to do so one on one.
Currently there are plenty of both around. Within the last 48 hours I have been within 50 feet of a wolf(Ellensburg) and my Step mother saw a cougar in the outskirts of Winthrop. The odds of that shouldn't be that good.
Post by: Hornseeker on March 17, 2014, 08:00:24 AM
http://www.montanaoutdoor.com/2014/03/national-geographic-wild-goes-to-montanas-bitterroot-mountains/ (http://www.montanaoutdoor.com/2014/03/national-geographic-wild-goes-to-montanas-bitterroot-mountains/)
Post by: Humptulips on March 17, 2014, 10:02:10 AM
From what I've seen you are both correct, depends on the cougar, some bury, some don't. The majority of kills I find are mostly eaten if the cat has been left undisturbed, I'm often amazed at how little is left. I've also seen cats come back a week or two later (during winter) to dig up and chew on bones from an earlier kill. Sometimes they do leave uneaten portions, but often I think that might have been caused by human, dog, or other disturbance. Wolves will also steal their kills, although I haven't personally seen that yet, I know guys who have seen it a lot in areas with more wolves.Cougars are different then wolves, in the fact they will bury their kills and eat on them later, wolves eat their fill and go kill again. Past studies reported that one cougar will kill fifty deer per year.
I don't believe this is true as a rule. I've seen quite a few cougar kills and my Dad was a long time houndman so chased a number. Here's what I think happens or at least what I've observed. A cougar or family of cougar makes a kill they will fill up and then go lay up somewhere to digest. When they get up they go hunting. If they make another kill they don't go back to the first. So I think in a area with plentiful game often you will find cougar kills that have been eaten on once or twice and a lot left. If the game is scarce they will keep going back until it is cleaned up or near cleaned up.
I really don't think it matters a lot. They are both unmanaged predator populations in this state and their effect is additive.oh they will adapt to whatever food source they need to survive! I know the cct tribe has been doing research on the couple of packs on their rez and moose have been the preferred choice in the early stages of residency! They say mule deer is preferred prey of a cougar, doesn't mean whitetail and turkeys don't hit the menu! They adapt to whatever prey is abundant! My guess is the lookout pack will move south to the bigger elk herds before to long!:yeah: I think they target the abundant specie in their area, but a guy I know on one study told me they found evidence of every type of animal in wolf poo. Even cougar and grizzly! Cougars will do the same, whatever gets in the way is on the menu, and occasionally that is wolf or even hound. It's all a matter of survival, people have even eat other people at times to survive.
I will tell you this they have just about wiped out the beaver population on the Penninsula. I was talking to a bioligist and the Makahs are doing a study on cougar. He said the preliminary results showed that certain cougars keyed on one species of prey.
If you think about it that makes good sense. An individual gets good at catching something they are going to keep hunting what they are comfortable with so a particular cougar is looking for beaver it is likely to eat mostly beaver. Same with another that learns deer hunting or elk hunting. Not saying they aren't going to go after targets of oppurtunity though.
Post by: KFhunter on March 17, 2014, 10:38:33 AM
I just watched a documentary about this, surprised it has not been brought up, about this exact topic. It was in the bitter root range, was very interesting. The guy was trying to find out more about wolf and lion interactions. What he found was that in areas where wolves don't group up, lions are the top predator. They will kill wolves, but in areas that wolves group up in numbers they were the top predator such as yellow stone park. Was a good watch, think it was called cougars vs wolves.
My opinion is wolves in most area's are the top predator, a lion can take on two wolves but any more and wolves have the upper hand
No one mentioned the landscape factor, open scrub and rocky areas vs timber
lot's of brush and rocks with no trees to go up the cats would be in trouble with a good group of wolves, but add a bunch of trees they'll just shoot up one of them.
imagine the fight it'd be if the wolves got a big nasty tom on the ground with no trees around :o
Post by: wolfbait on March 17, 2014, 07:31:35 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on March 17, 2014, 07:59:23 PM
I just watched a documentary about this, surprised it has not been brought up, about this exact topic. It was in the bitter root range, was very interesting. The guy was trying to find out more about wolf and lion interactions. What he found was that in areas where wolves don't group up, lions are the top predator. They will kill wolves, but in areas that wolves group up in numbers they were the top predator such as yellow stone park. Was a good watch, think it was called cougars vs wolves.
My opinion is wolves in most area's are the top predator, a lion can take on two wolves but any more and wolves have the upper hand
I just watched that today. I found it by mistake flipping through channels. Natgeo (?) also stated that a cougar killed a bull elk and a lone wolf came by, sniffed the elk and pretty much left the area. Natgeo also stated that the cougar fed off of the elk for 2 months. That sounds kind of funny to me. :dunno:
Post by: singleshot12 on March 18, 2014, 07:19:59 AM
Post by: bearpaw on March 18, 2014, 07:52:39 AM
From what I've seen you are both correct, depends on the cougar, some bury, some don't. The majority of kills I find are mostly eaten if the cat has been left undisturbed, I'm often amazed at how little is left. I've also seen cats come back a week or two later (during winter) to dig up and chew on bones from an earlier kill. Sometimes they do leave uneaten portions, but often I think that might have been caused by human, dog, or other disturbance. Wolves will also steal their kills, although I haven't personally seen that yet, I know guys who have seen it a lot in areas with more wolves.Cougars are different then wolves, in the fact they will bury their kills and eat on them later, wolves eat their fill and go kill again. Past studies reported that one cougar will kill fifty deer per year.
I don't believe this is true as a rule. I've seen quite a few cougar kills and my Dad was a long time houndman so chased a number. Here's what I think happens or at least what I've observed. A cougar or family of cougar makes a kill they will fill up and then go lay up somewhere to digest. When they get up they go hunting. If they make another kill they don't go back to the first. So I think in a area with plentiful game often you will find cougar kills that have been eaten on once or twice and a lot left. If the game is scarce they will keep going back until it is cleaned up or near cleaned up.
I really don't think it matters a lot. They are both unmanaged predator populations in this state and their effect is additive.oh they will adapt to whatever food source they need to survive! I know the cct tribe has been doing research on the couple of packs on their rez and moose have been the preferred choice in the early stages of residency! They say mule deer is preferred prey of a cougar, doesn't mean whitetail and turkeys don't hit the menu! They adapt to whatever prey is abundant! My guess is the lookout pack will move south to the bigger elk herds before to long!:yeah: I think they target the abundant specie in their area, but a guy I know on one study told me they found evidence of every type of animal in wolf poo. Even cougar and grizzly! Cougars will do the same, whatever gets in the way is on the menu, and occasionally that is wolf or even hound. It's all a matter of survival, people have even eat other people at times to survive.
I will tell you this they have just about wiped out the beaver population on the Penninsula. I was talking to a bioligist and the Makahs are doing a study on cougar. He said the preliminary results showed that certain cougars keyed on one species of prey.
If you think about it that makes good sense. An individual gets good at catching something they are going to keep hunting what they are comfortable with so a particular cougar is looking for beaver it is likely to eat mostly beaver. Same with another that learns deer hunting or elk hunting. Not saying they aren't going to go after targets of oppurtunity though.
:yeah: Especially young cats that are not good at catching larger prey, we find beaver kills fairly often, this winter we found beaver killed by a young female cougar, beaver dams always seem to be a good place to find various predators.
Cougar, wolves, coyotes, and even bear and other predators, they are all trying to eat and stay alive what ever works best for them and whatever gets in the way that they can catch might be a meal.
Post by: Greg Mullins on April 28, 2014, 09:52:43 PM
Post by: singleshot12 on April 29, 2014, 11:54:25 AM
Post by: jackmaster on April 29, 2014, 12:00:53 PM
A cougar can eat two deer a week. A wolf eats 20 deer per year.wolves eat more than 20 a year not to mention elk, yeah cougar eat probably more deer than they do elk, i have found alot of cougar kills, bear also love to eat deer fawns and elk calves, the GREAT BIG PROBLEM HERE is WDFW has taken away every effective method in controling bear and cougar, and with wolves in the mix the only losers are the elk and deer, moose and the few woodland carribou :bash:
Which would you rather see survive?
Post by: bearpaw on April 29, 2014, 12:19:41 PM
HOW MUCH DO WOLVES EAT
During a study in Yellowstone Park, 24 wolves were observed for 1 month in 1997 and 57 wolves were observed for 1 month in 1998. A total of 81 wolves were observed for a one month period and 114 kills were observed. This included 106 elk, 6 moose, 1 mule deer, and 1 bison. The average kill rate was 1.4 elk per wolf per month. That study indicates that 1 wolf will eat 17 elk per year. It would require 44 deer to equal the same body mass as 17 elk. So at that rate, 100 wolves will eat about 1700 elk or 4400 deer per year, but 500 wolves will eat about 8,500 elk or 22,000 deer per year...(USGS Study) http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/severity/results.htm#table1 (http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/severity/results.htm#table1)
HOW MUCH DO COUGARS EAT
•A large male cougar living in the Cascade Mountains kills a deer or elk every 9 to 12 days, eating up to 20 pounds at a time and burying the rest for later. http://wdfw.wa.gov/living/cougars.html (http://wdfw.wa.gov/living/cougars.html)
(That is 30 to 40 deer per year, I would suggest that small cougars may eat fewer deer but a female with kittens likely kills more)
Post by: bearpaw on April 29, 2014, 12:24:48 PM
Post by: boneaddict on April 29, 2014, 12:38:15 PM
Post by: bearpaw on April 29, 2014, 05:31:34 PM
and then there are the ones on a killing spree. The second wolf encounter I had was with one that had killed a minimum of 50 deer in less than about 3 days and was in the midst of killing one when I rudely interrupted. It was unreal. I think it was fun for him. I know there is documented evidence of cats also doing this. I have seen it a couple times, but not nearly as prolific or devastating. One of the great cat killers of all time has a good story of him trailing one down in the scabrock country, Arizona or Utah. All other anecdotal evidence I have seen, I would say cats clean up their kills a lot more efficiently than wolves, clear down to eating the marrow out of the bones.
Agreed, the cats often eat nearly everything, all that may be left is part of the skull, jaw, a few pieces of the spine, forelegs, hooves, and hair. From what I have seen in my many years of cat hunting I don't think sport killing is as prevalent with cougar.
Post by: jackmaster on April 30, 2014, 06:36:07 AM
i agree but cougars are oppurtunists, i once found 3 fresh cougar kills ina 100yrd stretch, wolves are the same way though, i have also found that a big cat if given the oppurtunity will bury their catch until it get alittle funky, i have heard that wolves like their meat a little more on the fresher side, the sad thing is any way you slice it are game animals pay the ultimate price and it pisses me off to no end that WDFW, the department that is put in charge to protect are game are falling down on the job, sure we need predators, but they need to be kept in check at a better rate than what is being done, there are a couple places that i use to hunt that are almost non existant of deer anymore do to the exploding cat population, its sad to see, when the wolves make a show on this side its gonna be real bad, though i doubt the wolves could do any real damage to the blacktail but the elk and farm animals sure the heck wont have a chance :twocents:and then there are the ones on a killing spree. The second wolf encounter I had was with one that had killed a minimum of 50 deer in less than about 3 days and was in the midst of killing one when I rudely interrupted. It was unreal. I think it was fun for him. I know there is documented evidence of cats also doing this. I have seen it a couple times, but not nearly as prolific or devastating. One of the great cat killers of all time has a good story of him trailing one down in the scabrock country, Arizona or Utah. All other anecdotal evidence I have seen, I would say cats clean up their kills a lot more efficiently than wolves, clear down to eating the marrow out of the bones.
Agreed, the cats often eat nearly everything, all that may be left is part of the skull, jaw, a few pieces of the spine, forelegs, hooves, and hair. From what I have seen in my many years of cat hunting I don't think sport killing is as prevalent with cougar.
Post by: singleshot12 on April 30, 2014, 03:05:24 PM
Cougars are just efficient hunting machines-eat,sleep,hunt.
Post by: jackmaster on May 01, 2014, 06:34:43 AM
I think wolves are more effective killers only because they run in organized packs,kinda like organized crime. They hunt as a group exercising their strategic methods almost as a sport.there is an old thread on here, a guy got frame photos of wolves pushing a cow elk out on to a steep finger ridge, they had her cornered big time, very smart and efficient hunters to say the least
Cougars are just efficient hunting machines-eat,sleep,hunt.
Post by: Idabooner on May 01, 2014, 07:51:23 AM
I think wolves are more effective killers only because they run in organized packs,kinda like organized crime. They hunt as a group exercising their strategic methods almost as a sport.
Cougars are just efficient hunting machines-eat,sleep,hunt.
You hit it. For two winters I watched from one to seven wolves several times just herding, setting up, maneuvering a bunch of deer, then they would move around the hill and work another bunch, just for fun or practice, they were not on the hunt, just having fun.