Post by: pianoman9701 on April 17, 2014, 11:14:02 AM
I joined the program because I'm passionate about hunting conservation and wanted to put it to work. I've participated in many more than the required hours of conservation activities. I believe that my work in the course awakened in me an activism in conservation and my 2nd Amendment rights that was somewhat dormant before. I learned a lot from taking and completing the course. I've received one damage tag that didn't produce any opportunities - it wasn't important to me that it did. The only tag for which I've applied is the Region 5 because it's a tag that epitomizes the reason for the MH program tags - resolving landowner/wildlife conflict.
But after having attended an Elk Hoof Disease meeting by the DFW and seeing firsthand what appears to be their priority of big timber over wildlife, the incredibly overreaching wolf program, and having read the book Operation Cody by Todd Vandivert, I feel like my association with this department as a Master Hunter is a defacto acceptance of their practices and in fact, is an aid in helping them maintain a false positive public profile. I plan to continue working for wildlife conservation and will continue as a Hunter Ed instructor because I believe in continuing to train and give opportunity to the people it brings to our sport. But, it's time to call it quits as a pawn of Anderson and Pamplin and all of their dysfunction. I respect the views of my fellow HuntWA members very much. So, please let me know what you think and if any of you are interested in hitching your horse to this wagon before I draft off the letters.
Post by: JKEEN33 on April 17, 2014, 11:29:06 AM
Post by: Bob33 on April 17, 2014, 11:30:48 AM
I understand your frustration with WDFW.
I don't believe that continuing to hunt in this state, or participating in programs such as the Master Hunter program necessarily suggest you endorse the department or accept their practices in any way.
Post by: buckfvr on April 17, 2014, 11:34:04 AM
Post by: Badhabit on April 17, 2014, 11:37:12 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 17, 2014, 11:37:49 AM
In my opinion, you are justified in taking any action that is legal, and that you believe is contrary to your beliefes and interests.
I understand your frustration with WDFW.
I don't believe that continuing to hunt in this state, or participating in programs such as the Master Hunter program necessarily suggest you endorse the department or accept their practices in any way.
I appreciate your input, Bob. I'll consider your comments carefully. Thank you.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 17, 2014, 11:45:44 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 17, 2014, 11:48:33 AM
You should retire from the program if you have strong beliefs about the direction they have gone or are going. Besides that will be less competition for my MH permits.
:chuckle: Anything for you, SVH.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on April 17, 2014, 11:49:10 AM
Post by: ELKBURGER on April 17, 2014, 11:58:21 AM
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on April 17, 2014, 11:59:43 AM
Post by: ghosthunter on April 17, 2014, 12:13:42 PM
Yes there are problems, no program is perfect and never will be. As a Master Hunter you have a chance to help change the perception of Master Hunters and hunters in general outside of Hunter Ed.
There is a huge problem with elk in my area. Master Hunters alone cannot solve it. But I was assigned a property in Day Creek before the land owner was ready. I kept in contact with that property owner for months letting him know I was there for him but he was calling the shots. I never hunted for him.
Latter I was assigned a property in Acme with two weeks left in the season. This time I met the farmer and rode around with him he showed me the boundaries , and I asked when he did and did not want me hunting and where I thought the shooting lanes were.
He let me know his neighbors had less than good experience with Master Hunters in the past. I assured him and his farm hands and everyone else I met that they would have no such issues with me.
I did not harvest a elk there. But I think I made a difference as far as the perception of hunters and hunting which is very important to me.
I could not have done that outside of the Master Hunter Program.
Weather anyone agrees or not I think that the certification gives hunters some credibility when they speak about hunting and maybe some folks will listen to your message a little longer. It is a tool , an in road if you will to get a positive message out to the public. Sadly many Master Hunters have squandered the opportunity. I do not intend to be one of those folks.
You should not be either. Change is hard but can be accomplished from the inside with higher success.
I beg you to stay in, not for access, not for kills, not for special privilege , but for that one chance to make a difference in eye of a non- hunter or property owner. There are plenty of folks out there destroying hunting. There are lots of complainers.
There is always some reason to walk away, always some statement to make, always folks who complain but never step up.
Step up , I will stand with you for change from the inside.
Use the tool you took the time to get. Use it to the advantage of hunting in this state, use it to make a difference one more time with one more property owner. :twocents:
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 17, 2014, 12:15:40 PM
Post by: jackmaster on April 17, 2014, 12:20:56 PM
:tup: The message you are sending will be loud and clear to those with an open mind. I hope you get some company...........this is the kind of stuff they need to hear.:yeah: :yeah: i know it would be impossible and i sure wish it wouldnt, i would love to see all outdoorsman, hunters and fisherman ban together and boycott a year of huntn and fishn, you all can say what you want but something like that would speak volumes and it would go nationwide.... good luck PMAN :tup:
Post by: grundy53 on April 17, 2014, 12:44:30 PM
I think you know my thoughts on the program. I applaud the volunteer work you did but I'm not a fan of the MH program.
:yeah:
sent from my typewriter
Post by: huntingfool7 on April 17, 2014, 01:01:08 PM
I'm sure your letter will be well thought out and well written.
Post by: REHJWA on April 17, 2014, 01:20:23 PM
I have misgivings about anyone "falling on a sword". :dunno:
I believe your letters have a greater impacted because you are a MH...not because you resign as a MH. :twocents:
I don't see how being apart of the MH program endorses everything the WDFW does. :dunno:
You are standing up for what you believe by writing the letters. :tup:
All that being said, if you believe you are being used for political reasons then by all means resign.
Best wishes.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 17, 2014, 01:48:20 PM
I am not a MH.
I have misgivings about anyone "falling on a sword". :dunno:
I believe your letters have a greater impacted because you are a MH...not because you resign as a MH. :twocents:
I don't see how being apart of the MH program endorses everything the WDFW does. :dunno:
You are standing up for what you believe by writing the letters. :tup:
All that being said, if you believe you are being used for political reasons then by all means resign.
Best wishes.
Interesting points. Thank you.
Post by: Special T on April 17, 2014, 03:04:11 PM
I am not a MH.
I have misgivings about anyone "falling on a sword". :dunno:
I believe your letters have a greater impacted because you are a MH...not because you resign as a MH. :twocents:
I don't see how being apart of the MH program endorses everything the WDFW does. :dunno:
You are standing up for what you believe by writing the letters. :tup:
All that being said, if you believe you are being used for political reasons then by all means resign.
Best wishes.
:yeah: This carries a lot of weight with me. I looked into it as a harvest opportunity and decided i would do some thing else, like spend time at My Archery club and help the sport in that way...
By quitting you get 1 shot to send a message, and make a stand. By staying you get to hound them to do the right thing from the inside...
IMO We make things happen because we are persistent, Always pushing, selling, explaining. Just because you have talked to your blue in the face repeating the same points 100's of times does NOT mean the next person has ANY idea what your talking about, and couldn't use some eye opening education...
Some times you don't have to quit and give them the bird, some times you just have to step back, catch your breath and re asses the situation. Being "Known", knowing the players, and the terms and verbage is a lot of dealing with Gov agencies. Perhaps being a MH isn't in the cards any longer, OR perhaps your focus needs to change on WHAT you are doing within the program.
I must say I WE have had the conversation on HW before how WE wish there were more hunters and anglers representing us from the inside.(since there seems to be so many predator lovers and ecofreaks in the department)
Perhaps senior MH need to organise a round table of just senior MH to address the WDFW with some of its stupidity from an organized factual position... Viewing it from both sides of the coin, Hunters and agency.. :twocents:
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 17, 2014, 03:09:24 PM
Post by: ELKBURGER on April 17, 2014, 03:48:29 PM
You guys make interesting points about working on it from the inside. Thanks.There are some good points for sure. I guess a guy could make a statement as an active member of the MH program. It sounds like you're in good company with Ghosthunter. I bet you 2 could work together to make the program what it was intended to be, and more.
Post by: leed on April 17, 2014, 04:13:51 PM
Post by: Bullkllr on April 17, 2014, 06:01:30 PM
2. I don't see an indictment of the MH program here.
3. A one-person protest will likely be quickly written off as "one disgruntled nay-sayer", no matter how heart-felt or well planned it is. It won't garner a second thought.
4. The only thing that seems to get the WDFW's attention are numbers; as in a group of some kind has to be represented to get any attention toward a policy change.
How can you best do that?
Post by: danderson on April 17, 2014, 09:11:09 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 18, 2014, 07:26:51 AM
You guys make interesting points about working on it from the inside. Thanks.There are some good points for sure. I guess a guy could make a statement as an active member of the MH program. It sounds like you're in good company with Ghosthunter. I bet you 2 could work together to make the program what it was intended to be, and more.
IMHO, the MH program itself is a fine program and I think that for the most part, the people who are in it are there for the right reasons - there are always exceptions. That program is not the problem. It's the fact that MHs are a tool of the administration with whom I so strongly take exception. I guess I have to decide which is the best way to affect change and redress the grievances that so many of us have about the management of the DFW and the Watchable Wildlife Commission.
Post by: Rider on April 18, 2014, 07:59:54 AM
It is because of a master hunter I met this year that I am learning even more than what my Dad taught me.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 18, 2014, 08:29:45 AM
Before you resign consider teaching someone else to be a master hunter including your ethics.
It is because of a master hunter I met this year that I am learning even more than what my Dad taught me.
That's important to me. I do mentor a young neighborhood boy in archery and we talk about ethics all the time. Good comment.
Post by: arrowflinger on April 18, 2014, 09:23:51 AM
Wolves are here to stay even if we all quit hunting!! But I would love to read your letters and maybe even help pass them along.
Post by: wence5 on April 18, 2014, 12:18:14 PM
I looked real hard at the MH program when it first came out. I decided there were better places and better ways to volunteer my time. In my opinion, the Master Hunter program was a good idea with admirable goals. It's shortcomings are primarily due to bureaucratic execution.
I'm sure your letter will be well thought out and well written.
I, like you, looked at the program a few years ago and came to the same conclusion. For that reason I never perused finishing the MH program.
Post by: fair-chase on April 18, 2014, 12:28:42 PM
Post by: Bob33 on April 18, 2014, 12:48:25 PM
The good for me is this:
- I've met some of my best hunting partners through the program.
- I've met and made friends with multiple private landowners, and have far more hunting opportunity today than I did ten years ago.
- I've become far more conscious of the importance of legal and ethical hunting.
- I've been exposed to many volunteer activities than I would have otherwise. For example, I became a volunteer Hunter Education instructor because of some contacts I made in the program.
- I've been afforded hunting opportunities that I otherwise would not have.
Is is worth it? That's up to each individual to decide. For me, the good has definitely outweighed the bad.
Post by: washelkhunter on April 18, 2014, 12:56:47 PM
Is there a way that you can contact all of the enrolled members of the MH program? If so, getting a letter of grievance signed by a significant number of the enrolled members would have much more of an impact than you going at it alone.:yeah:
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 18, 2014, 01:23:03 PM
Is there a way that you can contact all of the enrolled members of the MH program? If so, getting a letter of grievance signed by a significant number of the enrolled members would have much more of an impact than you going at it alone.
Interesting idea. It would be ironic if the DFW supplied me with such a list. :chuckle:
Post by: Bullkllr on April 18, 2014, 03:21:00 PM
Is there a way that you can contact all of the enrolled members of the MH program? If so, getting a letter of grievance signed by a significant number of the enrolled members would have much more of an impact than you going at it alone.
Interesting idea. It would be ironic if the DFW supplied me with such a list. :chuckle:
I went through the first year the program was offered. "Way back then" they actually gave out contact info for all the AHE program members. Mik Mikitik was in charge. Not sure if this is the case any longer.
Post by: Bob33 on April 18, 2014, 03:36:14 PM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/masterhunter/advisory_groups.html (http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/masterhunter/advisory_groups.html)
Post by: Rainier10 on April 18, 2014, 06:19:59 PM
Good luck and I support whatever you decide.
Post by: billythekidrock on April 18, 2014, 06:21:55 PM
Is there a way that you can contact all of the enrolled members of the MH program? If so, getting a letter of grievance signed by a significant number of the enrolled members would have much more of an impact than you going at it alone.
Interesting idea. It would be ironic if the DFW supplied me with such a list. :chuckle:
I went through the first year the program was offered. "Way back then" they actually gave out contact info for all the AHE program members. Mik Mikitik was in charge. Not sure if this is the case any longer.
They stopped giving out that info years ago.
Post by: KFhunter on April 18, 2014, 06:36:07 PM
Is there a way that you can contact all of the enrolled members of the MH program? If so, getting a letter of grievance signed by a significant number of the enrolled members would have much more of an impact than you going at it alone.
Interesting idea. It would be ironic if the DFW supplied me with such a list. :chuckle:
:yeah:
MH's are all divided right now, what would/could happen if you had a place to go to communicate with other MH's to get things changed?
www.MasterHuntersofWashington.org (http://www.MasterHuntersofWashington.org) 501(c) club?????
the link is empty/broken - that's my point :chuckle:
Post by: ghosthunter on April 18, 2014, 06:51:30 PM
Is there a way that you can contact all of the enrolled members of the MH program? If so, getting a letter of grievance signed by a significant number of the enrolled members would have much more of an impact than you going at it alone.
Interesting idea. It would be ironic if the DFW supplied me with such a list. :chuckle:
I went through the first year the program was offered. "Way back then" they actually gave out contact info for all the AHE program members. Mik Mikitik was in charge. Not sure if this is the case any longer.
They stopped giving out that info years ago.
Mik retired last year.
New guy now.
Post by: Bob33 on April 18, 2014, 07:14:55 PM
I wouldn't.
Post by: REHJWA on April 18, 2014, 08:45:04 PM
Post by: sakoshooter on April 18, 2014, 10:28:04 PM
Post by: Dan-o on April 18, 2014, 11:39:26 PM
I'm just curious. Are you considering giving up hunting in Washington all together or just the MH program?
By my way of thinking, if you're a defacto supporter of the agency for being a MH, you're a defacto supporter if you buy a hunting license. Either way, you're working to their rules.
Not trying to pick a fight. I appreciate your dilemma.
BTW, lots of good responses.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 19, 2014, 06:18:14 AM
I've never been a fan of the MH program.
Yeah, the thread's not about whether you like the MH program. Sako. That's a whole other topic you could start. It's more about is how I'm planning on going about this the best way to do it to get a message across. And, I don't expect my message to come across to the DFW ever. I'm hoping to put pressure on them from above and outside.
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 19, 2014, 06:23:46 AM
Pman,
I'm just curious. Are you considering giving up hunting in Washington all together or just the MH program?
By my way of thinking, if you're a defacto supporter of the agency for being a MH, you're a defacto supporter if you buy a hunting license. Either way, you're working to their rules.
Not trying to pick a fight. I appreciate your dilemma.
BTW, lots of good responses.
I appreciate your point and yes, I give a level of support just by purchasing a license. But, I can't afford to hunt out of state. But I won't hunt without one and I do have to hunt. I'm not sure how many years I have left that I'll be able to get up and down the hills. I think probably not too many.
Post by: billythekidrock on April 19, 2014, 06:43:38 AM
Would you want WDFW giving out the contact information for all hunters to anyone who asked?
I wouldn't.
Nope. And I was not happy to find out that my contact info was sent to other AHE members without my knowledge or consent.
Post by: bearpaw on April 19, 2014, 07:10:18 AM
Post by: t6 on April 19, 2014, 02:42:49 PM
Good luck with YOUR decision. Hopefully someone within the agency is listening before its too late and none of them has a job due to a lack of public support.
T
Post by: templar021 on April 20, 2014, 05:14:14 PM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on April 20, 2014, 05:49:02 PM
I think you know my thoughts on the program. I applaud the volunteer work you did but I'm not a fan of the MH program.
I have never been and, though I feel eminently qualified, I would never have applied. It seems like the program had great potential but due to the game regs, policies, and practices really hobbled the program. It was almost like blackmail, a lot of work for dubious benefit.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on April 20, 2014, 05:55:26 PM
Post by: CP on April 20, 2014, 06:03:28 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on April 30, 2014, 10:32:44 AM
Post by: buckfvr on April 30, 2014, 10:40:48 AM
Post by: elkh8me on May 12, 2014, 06:13:32 AM
Post by: Bob33 on May 12, 2014, 07:02:03 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on May 12, 2014, 07:05:57 AM
Post by: bbarnes on May 12, 2014, 09:39:59 AM