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Title: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: bearpaw on May 04, 2014, 03:31:05 PM
In Idaho there is no garbage (appliances, couches, TV's) dumped in the mountains. The reason for no garbage is that the landfill and garbage pickup is part of everyone's property taxes. In addition to garbage pickup I am allowed to take a couple tons of garbage to the county landfill each year at no extra charge. Because garbage is prepaid with property taxes there is no reason for people to dump in the mountains and the result is a much cleaner environment.

I'm thinking this would be a better approach in Washington. Maybe people would quit dumping junk and garbage in the mountains if they could simply take it to the landfill. Maybe this would prevent further loss of recreational access to private and public lands.

Any thoughts!

There have been additional ideas posted. Remember, funding is always an issue, most ideas will need a funding source to be implemented. I added a poll, please vote for any options you like. You can change your vote if desired at any time.

I will add any new ideas that are posted in this topic.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: crschralping on May 04, 2014, 03:35:05 PM
I think bottle and can deposit is a good idea too.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: ICEMAN on May 04, 2014, 03:43:51 PM
I partly feel that a lot of the trash is tossed off cause folks are lazy...they just happen to have a half load of whatever in the truck, and why wait in line at the landfill, just toss if off into a gulley... Some trash piles are also the aftermath of a crime, a convenient way to get rid of evidence of your thefts....toss the junk you don't want. Plus, construction debris. I caught a guy dumping carpet and sent him packing home.

Dale, is construction debris also paid for in Idaho?
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: buckfvr on May 04, 2014, 03:48:52 PM
Could work in the tri county area for sure......might even prompt some of the folks to go to the dump for the first time in their lives..............even the ones who dump on their own land. :dunno:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: bearpaw on May 04, 2014, 03:49:13 PM
I partly feel that a lot of the trash is tossed off cause folks are lazy...they just happen to have a half load of whatever in the truck, and why wait in line at the landfill, just toss if off into a gulley... Some trash piles are also the aftermath of a crime, a convenient way to get rid of evidence of your thefts....toss the junk you don't want. Plus, construction debris. I caught a guy dumping carpet and sent him packing home.

Dale, is construction debris also paid for in Idaho?

I assume it is because I see it at the landfill when I take stuff there. I have taken all kinds of garbage from the place I bought including construction debri, they took it all. The only time I get charged is when I go over my limit for the year, then additional charges do apply.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: snowpack on May 04, 2014, 03:51:20 PM
Part of it is also the proximity to any kind of landfill.  For me it is about 80 miles round trip to the landfill.  The $10 every 6 months isn't bad, but the loading everything up then making the drive (including gas prices) is a pain--but still do it.  I can kind of see why the dumpers might dump--it's the lazy/easy way.  Some places would put a big steel bin in an area every few months to be picked up regularly for large items.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: tbotts on May 04, 2014, 04:46:30 PM
i agree with iceman.  I think people are just lazy to take it to the transfer stations.  It really isnt that expensive to drop your garbage off at a transfer station for proper disposal.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on May 04, 2014, 04:59:46 PM
How does it work for renters, people who don't pay property taxes?
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Mark Brenckle on May 04, 2014, 05:26:04 PM
How does it work for renters, people who don't pay property taxes?
  Property owner is paying the property taxes, so the renter would be allowed their set weight limit based on their address.

   I think this is a good idea - until the filthy politicians get their mits on another source of income, suck it dry and then say they need more $$ 'for the safety of _______" or "for the kids to get _______" or "in order to continue providing ______" - eventually it wouldn't get the funding required and we'd be in the same boat with higher property taxes. 
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Lucky1 on May 04, 2014, 05:35:22 PM
How does it work for renters, people who don't pay property taxes?
  Property owner is paying the property taxes, so the renter would be allowed their set weight limit based on their address.

   I think this is a good idea - until the filthy politicians get their mits on another source of income, suck it dry and then say they need more $$ 'for the safety of _______" or "for the kids to get _______" or "in order to continue providing ______" - eventually it wouldn't get the funding required and we'd be in the same boat with higher property taxes. 
:yeah:
I don't trust our public servants to run a efficient economical system. I really resist the idea that we should put that responsibility in their control. Maybe higher penalties for illegal dumping would work.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: bearpaw on May 04, 2014, 05:37:58 PM
How does it work for renters, people who don't pay property taxes?

They have garbage service like everyone else and can take items to the landfill. I assume that landowners (landlords) pass the cost on in the rent fee just they would pass on any other associated costs of ownership as part of the rental fee.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on May 04, 2014, 05:42:07 PM
How does it work for renters, people who don't pay property taxes?
  Property owner is paying the property taxes, so the renter would be allowed their set weight limit based on their address.

   I think this is a good idea - until the filthy politicians get their mits on another source of income, suck it dry and then say they need more $$ 'for the safety of _______" or "for the kids to get _______" or "in order to continue providing ______" - eventually it wouldn't get the funding required and we'd be in the same boat with higher property taxes. 
:yeah:
I don't trust our public servants to run a efficient economical system. I really resist the idea that we should put that responsibility in their control. Maybe higher penalties for illegal dumping would work.

 :yeah: property taxes are already high enough, I'm sure if the county got this started I would pay more than my fair share.

Right now I take a load of garbage every 3-4 weeks in a Dakota for $10-11, pretty cheap compared to pick up service. They would probably want to charge an average to the tax payers which would most likely be higher than current garbage bill.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Eli346 on May 04, 2014, 06:06:01 PM
 I'm a property and would gladly pay extra if it meant not seeing so much crap dumped in the woods! As it is now it's disgusting in places. I always end up picking up a trash bag full in a single day when I'm out in the woods. The days I don't are far and few between.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Lucky1 on May 04, 2014, 06:08:45 PM
Maybe we can have prisoners pick up the trash. We are already paying for their incarceration. Free garbage service will not stop idiots from littering. :twocents:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: CAMPMEAT on May 04, 2014, 06:12:27 PM
The company in Republic, that had the contract with the city and county, to pickup it's garbage, had a contract with the city that stated in general terms, The city residents could not take ANY trash/garbage to the dump, or get a $250 ticket. He no longer has the contract with the city of Republic......
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: CAMPMEAT on May 04, 2014, 06:17:00 PM
ALL trailheads should have a locked box for garbage pickup, with payments of $50 per greenie, not hunters, to clean up their hippie granola bar wrappers, t.p., outhouse leftovers, (Sh!t), broken shoelaces etc.

Makes total sense to me........ :tup:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: jackmaster on May 04, 2014, 06:17:39 PM
I love the idea bearpaw, I also think that dumping garbage should be a higher priority with insane fines and loss of vehicle, you make it a crime with severe penalties it would also help, put hidden cameras in popular dumping spots, once people start getting nailed it will cause a serious decline in dumping, people who dump their crap in the hills are serious lowlife scum, I friggin hate those types, about as much as a rapist, or a friggin thief  :tup:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: CAMPMEAT on May 04, 2014, 06:21:51 PM
Dumping will always exist. when an area gets shut down, they will move somewhere else. There isn't a solution. The lazy butts will always exist




Maybe we can have prisoners pick up the trash. We are already paying for their incarceration. Free garbage service will not stop idiots from littering. :twocents:
They already pick up the state highways.


I never see the liberals making one prisoner, pick up litter, to help the lazy DOT workers survive a hard days work.... :tup:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: CAMPMEAT on May 04, 2014, 06:24:34 PM
ALL trailheads should have a locked box for garbage pickup, with payments of $50 per greenie, not hunters, to clean up their hippie granola bar wrappers, t.p., outhouse leftovers, (Sh!t), broken shoelaces etc.

Makes total sense to me........ :tup:

I can go on about this. 25% of the mess in the woods is from hunters. Why cant people pack up there ugly and wood outhouses after hunting season, and carpet, or how about the garbage that they dump back in the trees 30 yards away from camp?  I picked up a camp on Friday and got three bags of garbage and 2 bags of beer and pop cans. I also picked up a few liquor bottles.

Haven't started about the fisherman or the off road guroos yet


I was just given you the business...... :chuckle:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: hughjorgan on May 04, 2014, 06:26:03 PM
Bear paw I like the idea. I believe like Idaho, Montana does the same. I doubt it will solve the problem but could cut down on the amount dumped. I have picked up crap off property at work and that is plenty far from any mountains. Illegal dumping is a problem from the cities to the mountains.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: snowpack on May 04, 2014, 06:29:55 PM
Could maybe have FS/DNR do before/after checks on areas they allow for brush picking.  If the area has more trash than when they started, the permit holder could be required to clean it up.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Hawgdawg on May 04, 2014, 06:32:00 PM
[quote author=Boss .300 winmag link=topic=152609.



Boss, I always
 had sour grapes on that issue to. There taxes are rolled into their rent.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: baldopepper on May 05, 2014, 12:34:26 PM
Amen Dale-it's not just a problem in the Mtns., every vacant lot in King/Pierce counties is full also.  Lazy, I'm sure, is part of it, but cost is a much bigger part on large items. (as an example I took an old mattress to the transfer station and they charged $11.00 extra for it plus another $38.00 for the rest-all in the back of a Ford F-150)  Some states have 2-3 free pickup days per year and I'd think in the long run that would be a good idea. 
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: bigtex on May 05, 2014, 07:22:50 PM
I think bottle and can deposit is a good idea too.
There was a bill introduced this year that would create this type of program, however it was introduced way too late for it to even get passed.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: crschralping on May 05, 2014, 07:40:56 PM
That's too bad... growing up in MI you hardly ever saw a bottle or can laying in the ditch with the 10 cent deposit.

It's always a bummer finding trash, I think the ID garbage deal is a great idea.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on May 05, 2014, 08:55:27 PM
 Yes  over here they have overcharged at the drop boxes and transfer stations for many many  years.......... about the same time junk started being dumped in the woods. Hell we've had junk dumped on our private road
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Halo on May 05, 2014, 09:02:51 PM
I've always thought garbage costs should be covered by sales tax, if you are buying stuff you are making trash.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: buckfvr on May 05, 2014, 09:03:06 PM
One of my pet peeves............
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: fireweed on May 06, 2014, 01:13:52 PM
I like this idea but it will do absolutely nothing to open up the private timberland again.  But it could remove on of the "excuses" for closing.

Bearpaw, think about this: every forestland parcel pays $17 or so for forest fire fighting.  Most of that money is then refunded if you have lots of parcels.  I also think there is a huge firefighting fund out there somewhere.  Why couldn't the law be changed to allow use of that money to clean up timberland?
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: floatinghat on May 07, 2014, 03:24:53 PM
FW, can you expand on the $17 / parcel.  When you say most is refunded to who and when?
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: buglebrush on May 07, 2014, 04:07:52 PM
In Idaho there is no garbage (appliances, couches, TV's) dumped in the mountains. The reason for no garbage is that the landfill and garbage pickup is part of everyone's property taxes. In addition to garbage pickup I am allowed to take a couple tons of garbage to the county landfill each year at no extra charge. Because garbage is prepaid with property taxes there is no reason for people to dump in the mountains and the result is a much cleaner environment.

I'm thinking this would be a better approach in Washington. Maybe people would quit dumping junk and garbage in the mountains if they could simply take it to the landfill. Maybe this would prevent further loss of recreational access to private and public lands.

Any thoughts!

Having lived in both states I can tell you this makes an enormous difference!  Also, in Washington you can't burn plywood, dimensional lumber, etc...  :bash:   I have little piles of scrap sitting behind my shop that would've gone to the landfill months ago when I lived in Idaho.  Also, for those of you worrying about property tax increases my property tax rates were much lower in Idaho even with free landfill use.  I did construction, and we hauled everything to the landfill ( except what we burned)  Never paid a dime either :)
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on May 07, 2014, 06:56:31 PM
In Idaho there is no garbage (appliances, couches, TV's) dumped in the mountains. The reason for no garbage is that the landfill and garbage pickup is part of everyone's property taxes. In addition to garbage pickup I am allowed to take a couple tons of garbage to the county landfill each year at no extra charge. Because garbage is prepaid with property taxes there is no reason for people to dump in the mountains and the result is a much cleaner environment.

I'm thinking this would be a better approach in Washington. Maybe people would quit dumping junk and garbage in the mountains if they could simply take it to the landfill. Maybe this would prevent further loss of recreational access to private and public lands.

Any thoughts!

Having lived in both states I can tell you this makes an enormous difference!  Also, in Washington you can't burn plywood, dimensional lumber, etc...  :bash:   I have little piles of scrap sitting behind my shop that would've gone to the landfill months ago when I lived in Idaho.  Also, for those of you worrying about property tax increases my property tax rates were much lower in Idaho even with free landfill use.  I did construction, and we hauled everything to the landfill ( except what we burned)  Never paid a dime either :)

Yep I can see WA lower our taxes and then giving us dumping privileges .  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: bearpaw on May 08, 2014, 07:31:04 AM
At first I was not happy about garbage being added to my property taxes in Idaho, but after seeing how convenient it is to get rid of garbage and yard debri and how much Idaho has benefitted verses Washington's significant garbage problem, I am now a big proponent of the idea.

Perhaps legislators could write a bill including can/bottle deposits and adding garbage to property taxes?

I would really like to hear additional comments?
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: TheHunt on May 08, 2014, 07:39:26 AM
I think Washington needs to put our prison folks to work.

Even in the landfill they should dump the garbage and have the prisoners sort the stuff that individuals did not recycle. 

They would get nothing for it but good conduct points.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: bearpaw on May 08, 2014, 07:41:21 AM
I think Washington needs to put our prison folks to work.

Even in the landfill they should dump the garbage and have the prisoners sort the stuff that individuals did not recycle. 

They would get nothing for it but good conduct points.

I like this idea too!  :tup:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: jackmaster on May 08, 2014, 07:45:44 AM
I think Washington needs to put our prison folks to work.

Even in the landfill they should dump the garbage and have the prisoners sort the stuff that individuals did not recycle. 

They would get nothing for it but good conduct points.

I like this idea too!  :tup:
hell yeah, thats a great idea, my bet though all the friggin bleeding hearts would say its demeaning and embarrassing, but its ok for them to steal and rape and murder and what not..... actually here by my work, des moines uses prisoners to weed whack and other stuff, the inmates look forward to the work detail, i guess i would to if i was locked the hell up everyday.... i agree 100% though, we should use them its free labor and they can use it to payback their free room and board :tup:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Jingles on May 08, 2014, 08:05:07 AM
I can understand why there is a lot of stuff dumped beside the roads and not taken to the transfer station at least here locally with a  minimum fee of 13.50 who in this economically challenged time is going to pay 13.50 to get rid of 1 or 2  garbage bags of stuff when they can just throw it out the trunk on their way from the campsite.
I think a couple of the ideas expressed here make perfect sense.
 Put small dumpsters at the trail heads. So what if they are used by non hikers it is keeping the trash out of the woods
Reduce the fees at the transfer stations to say 1.00 per bag or 5.00 per pickup load
Also the idea of deposits on all beverage bottles and cans is an excellent idea worked in Michigan where folks actually made extra spending money picking up those thrown beside the road and if memory serves me right the first couple of years in MI they paid the refund on all bottles and cans regardless of whether they were marked return for deposit or not just to get them picked up.
I would also like to add that it isn't just beside the roads and at trail heads where they trash is being dumped Numerous times I have packed out bags of crap collected well into the wilderness and along the trails or from where a deer hunting camp was located and the hunters attempted to hide the stuff away from camp.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Knocker of rocks on May 08, 2014, 08:07:17 AM
I think Washington needs to put our prison folks to work.

Even in the landfill they should dump the garbage and have the prisoners sort the stuff that individuals did not recycle. 

They would get nothing for it but good conduct points.

I like this idea too!  :tup:
hell yeah, thats a great idea, my bet though all the friggin bleeding hearts would say its demeaning and embarrassing, but its ok for them to steal and rape and murder and what not..... actually here by my work, des moines uses prisoners to weed whack and other stuff, the inmates look forward to the work detail, i guess i would to if i was locked the hell up everyday.... i agree 100% though, we should use them its free labor and they can use it to payback their free room and board :tup:

I commonly see corrections inmates cleaning up 522.  So I guess I don't see why your little diatribe about the "bleeding hearts" has a place in this discussion, except as a vehicle for you to show off that chip on your shoulder
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: CAMPMEAT on May 08, 2014, 01:13:58 PM
My wife even brings home her used toilet paper home to burn...........now that's dedication......seriously, she does. Kinda creeps me out since she forgets it and it's in my truck for a month........... :'(
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on May 09, 2014, 07:47:28 AM
I think Washington needs to put our prison folks to work.

Even in the landfill they should dump the garbage and have the prisoners sort the stuff that individuals did not recycle. 

They would get nothing for it but good conduct points.


I like this idea too!  :tup:
hell yeah, thats a great idea, my bet though all the friggin bleeding hearts would say its demeaning and embarrassing, but its ok for them to steal and rape and murder and what not..... actually here by my work, des moines uses prisoners to weed whack and other stuff, the inmates look forward to the work detail, i guess i would to if i was locked the hell up everyday.... i agree 100% though, we should use them its free labor and they can use it to payback their free room and board :tup:

I commonly see corrections inmates cleaning up 522.  So I guess I don't see why your little diatribe about the "bleeding hearts" has a place in this discussion, except as a vehicle for you to show off that chip on your shoulder

 Those are county corrections inmates. State would take an act of god . But they do have fire fighting groups out of Monroe. Seen 'em at work in our back yard in 2004
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: bearpaw on May 09, 2014, 07:52:17 AM
There have been additional ideas posted. THANKS

Remember, funding is always an issue, most ideas will need a funding source to be implemented. I added a poll, please vote for any options you like. You can change your vote if desired at any time.

I will add any new ideas that are posted in this topic.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: bigtex on May 09, 2014, 08:03:39 AM
Regarding the penalty selection, realistically the penalties already have the potential to be stiff.

There are only two "ticketable" litter offenses which don't require a visit before a judge:

1- Littering less than or equal to one cubic foot is currently a Class 3 civil infraction with a fine/ticket of $103. This year the legislature reclassified the offense as a Class 2 infraction and it will take effect next month and the fine will be increased to a little over $250.

2- Discarding "potentially dangerous litter" is a Class 1 civil infraction with a legislatively adopted fine of $1,025. Potentially dangerous litter" means litter that is likely to injure a person or cause damage to a vehicle or other property. "Potentially dangerous litter" means:(a) Cigarettes, cigars, or other tobacco products that are capable of starting a fire; (b) Glass; (c) A container or other product made predominantly or entirely of glass; (d) A hypodermic needle or other medical instrument designed to cut or pierce; (e) Raw human waste, including soiled baby diapers, regardless of whether or not the waste is in a container of any sort; and (f) Nails or tacks.

Now littering outside of those two circumstances require a mandatory court date.

It is a misdemeanor for a person to litter in an amount greater than one cubic foot but less than one cubic yard. The person shall also pay a litter cleanup restitution payment equal to twice the actual cost of cleanup, or fifty dollars per cubic foot of litter, whichever is greater. The court shall distribute one-half of the restitution payment to the landowner and one-half of the restitution payment to the law enforcement agency investigating the incident. The court may, in addition to or in lieu of part or all of the cleanup restitution payment, order the person to pick up and remove litter from the property, with prior permission of the legal owner or, in the case of public property, of the agency managing the property. The court may suspend or modify the litter cleanup restitution payment for a first-time offender under this section, if the person cleans up and properly disposes of the litter.

It is a gross misdemeanor for a person to litter in an amount of one cubic yard or more. The person shall also pay a litter cleanup restitution payment equal to twice the actual cost of cleanup, or one hundred dollars per cubic foot of litter, whichever is greater. The court shall distribute one-half of the restitution payment to the landowner and one-half of the restitution payment to the law enforcement agency investigating the incident. The court may, in addition to or in lieu of part or all of the cleanup restitution payment, order the person to pick up and remove litter from the property, with prior permission of the legal owner or, in the case of public property, of the agency managing the property. The court may suspend or modify the litter cleanup restitution payment for a first-time offender under this section, if the person cleans up and properly disposes of the litter.

Again, this is another one for me where a mandatory minimum penalty needs to come into play. For the misdemeanor offense you can be fined for criminal penalties $0-1,000 and 90 days in jail plus the cleanup costs. The gross misdemeanor criminal penalties are $0-5,000 and 364 days in jail plus the cleanup costs.

Just in my experience, the criminal fines are suspended (be a good boy for a month/year) and the cleanup restitution are suspended as well.

Like I said, the potential is there already, it's just up to the judge/prosecutor to actually use their heads...
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Knocker of rocks on May 09, 2014, 08:06:57 AM

 Those are county corrections inmates. State would take an act of god .

Sorry, but no.

WDOC

Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: Tbar on May 09, 2014, 08:20:34 AM
I don't like it but both public and private land owners are backed into a corner by illegal dumping.  They are more or less forced to gate their land (I think this could have been another option as it is the most popular one employed in WW).
 I would like to see a volunteer (cleanup) x number of hours in exchange for access to gated land.  If I had a parcel of any size I think I would be forced to gate it. I do like the idea of using prison workers also.  :twocents:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: Southpole on May 09, 2014, 08:20:59 AM
How does it work for renters, people who don't pay property taxes?
  Property owner is paying the property taxes, so the renter would be allowed their set weight limit based on their address.

   I think this is a good idea - until the filthy politicians get their mits on another source of income, suck it dry and then say they need more $$ 'for the safety of _______" or "for the kids to get _______" or "in order to continue providing ______" - eventually it wouldn't get the funding required and we'd be in the same boat with higher property taxes. 
I don't think Washington St. is responsible enough to handle extra tax monies and allocate it to garbage management for the whole state. They can't manage the basics as it is. I agree with Mark_436, they'll some how screw it up and use the tax dollars else where.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: Knocker of rocks on May 09, 2014, 08:32:19 AM
Could maybe have FS/DNR do before/after checks on areas they allow for brush picking.  If the area has more trash than when they started, the permit holder could be required to clean it up.

Slippery slope
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: bigtex on May 09, 2014, 08:38:11 AM
Could maybe have FS/DNR do before/after checks on areas they allow for brush picking.  If the area has more trash than when they started, the permit holder could be required to clean it up.
Slippery slope
:yeah:
Sounds nice but it really isn't feasible. It would be like saying a WDFW Officer finds a poached deer then pulls over the guy that passed him on the road. He was the last one in the area so he must've poached the deer. Also need to realize that there are a ton of brush picking areas open in this state, it's not like Christmas tree cutting where it's typically limited to zones.

Also need to realize there are only 12 DNR Officers for the entire state which cover multiple counties. On the USFS side the average is less than 1 LEO per USFS District in WA. Simply isn't feasible.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: bigtex on May 09, 2014, 08:41:44 AM
"Offer free cleanup to large landowners who keep properties open to public access"

And who would pay for this service???

Remember an old economics teacher that said "there's no such thing as free"..............
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: Bean Counter on May 09, 2014, 08:53:48 AM
If there identified problem areas: how about sting operations? I know they're resource intensive for LE, but it would send a clear message when the fines are laid to them.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: bigtex on May 09, 2014, 08:56:36 AM
If there identified problem areas: how about sting operations? I know they're resource intensive for LE, but it would send a clear message when the fines are laid to them.
It's done. About 4 years ago there was an article in the paper about a DNR "sting" on the Kitsap Peninsula involving 3 DNR LEOs. No cases were made and people complained to DNR about a waste of taxpayer dollars having three LEOs there and no cases being made.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.....
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: jackmaster on May 09, 2014, 09:47:23 AM
If there identified problem areas: how about sting operations? I know they're resource intensive for LE, but it would send a clear message when the fines are laid to them.
It's done. About 4 years ago there was an article in the paper about a DNR "sting" on the Kitsap Peninsula involving 3 DNR LEOs. No cases were made and people complained to DNR about a waste of taxpayer dollars having three LEOs there and no cases being made.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.....
there are alot better ways than to post up 3 leo,s once the word gets out people will go else where, ya got to do a covert mission my son, many a way to skin a cat without the cat knowing he's  been skinned :tup:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: fireweed on May 09, 2014, 12:29:01 PM
At first I was not happy about garbage being added to my property taxes in Idaho, but after seeing how convenient it is to get rid of garbage and yard debri and how much Idaho has benefitted verses Washington's significant garbage problem, I am now a big proponent of the idea.

Perhaps legislators could write a bill including can/bottle deposits and adding garbage to property taxes?

I would really like to hear additional comments?

Around here the tweekers are actually REMOVING garbage from the woods--IF it is metal.  We've got old railroad tracks and they comb those things pulling out rusty buckets, pieces of spike or rail (not to mention fence posts still holding up fences) They work hard!  The bottle bill could get them doing something else useful--scouring for glass and Aluminum. 
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: fireweed on May 09, 2014, 12:33:09 PM
FW, can you expand on the $17 / parcel.  When you say most is refunded to who and when?

I haven't really researched it but each forestland parcel I pay has a separate Firefighting fee, and if you have a bunch of small parcels instead of one big one you can apply for a partial refund--the kicker is you have to apply.  If you forget, they keep extra money (so you can bet there is some extra somewhere). Sort of like the $5 opt-out for Parks, only you have to pay, then apply for a refund.  DNR would know more.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: bearpaw on May 09, 2014, 01:21:04 PM
"Offer free cleanup to large landowners who keep properties open to public access"

And who would pay for this service???

Remember an old economics teacher that said "there's no such thing as free"..............

Precisely why I offered funding choices in the poll! If you have additional funding options I will gladly add them to the poll.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: bearpaw on May 09, 2014, 01:24:04 PM
FW, can you expand on the $17 / parcel.  When you say most is refunded to who and when?

I haven't really researched it but each forestland parcel I pay has a separate Firefighting fee, and if you have a bunch of small parcels instead of one big one you can apply for a partial refund--the kicker is you have to apply.  If you forget, they keep extra money (so you can bet there is some extra somewhere). Sort of like the $5 opt-out for Parks, only you have to pay, then apply for a refund.  DNR would know more.

I could add this to the poll, can you verify there are in fact fire funds somewhere?
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: arees on May 09, 2014, 01:49:06 PM
I like this idea but it will do absolutely nothing to open up the private timberland again.  But it could remove on of the "excuses" for closing.

Bearpaw, think about this: every forestland parcel pays $17 or so for forest fire fighting.  Most of that money is then refunded if you have lots of parcels.  I also think there is a huge firefighting fund out there somewhere.  Why couldn't the law be changed to allow use of that money to clean up timberland?

FW, can you expand on the $17 / parcel.  When you say most is refunded to who and when?

I haven't really researched it but each forestland parcel I pay has a separate Firefighting fee, and if you have a bunch of small parcels instead of one big one you can apply for a partial refund--the kicker is you have to apply.  If you forget, they keep extra money (so you can bet there is some extra somewhere). Sort of like the $5 opt-out for Parks, only you have to pay, then apply for a refund.  DNR would know more.

I could add this to the poll, can you verify there are in fact fire funds somewhere?
I don't know about this fund, but the proposal sounds like taking money that was raised for one purpose and deciding to spend it on another.  If the state took the Discover Pass funds and decided to spend it on highway maintenance, wouldn't we all be pissed?  How is this different?
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from the mountains
Post by: bigtex on May 09, 2014, 02:29:47 PM
FW, can you expand on the $17 / parcel.  When you say most is refunded to who and when?
I haven't really researched it but each forestland parcel I pay has a separate Firefighting fee, and if you have a bunch of small parcels instead of one big one you can apply for a partial refund--the kicker is you have to apply.  If you forget, they keep extra money (so you can bet there is some extra somewhere). Sort of like the $5 opt-out for Parks, only you have to pay, then apply for a refund.  DNR would know more.
I could add this to the poll, can you verify there are in fact fire funds somewhere?
Here is a quick recap of the law for firefighting.

RCW 76.04.600 states "Every owner of forest land in the state of Washington shall furnish or provide, during the season of the year when there is danger of forest fires, adequate protection against the spread of fire thereon or therefrom which shall meet with the approval of the department." Basically this means you need to have firefighting department or some similar type of protection. Now obviously most people don't have their own fire departments. So...

RCW 76.04.610 states "If any owner of forest land within a forest protection zone neglects or fails to provide adequate fire protection as required by RCW 76.04.600, the department (DNR) shall provide such protection and shall annually impose the following assessments on each parcel of such land: (i) A flat fee assessment of seventeen dollars and fifty cents; and (ii) twenty-seven cents on each acre exceeding fifty acres."

Regarding the refund: "(b) Assessors may, at their option, collect the assessment on tax exempt lands. If the assessor elects not to collect the assessment, the department may bill the landowner directly.
(2) An owner who has paid assessments on two or more parcels, each containing fewer than fifty acres and each within the same county, may obtain the following refund:
(a) If all the parcels together contain less than fifty acres, then the refund is equal to the flat fee assessments paid, reduced by the total of (i) seventeen dollars and (ii) the total of the amounts retained by the county from such assessments under subsection (5) of this section.
(b) If all the parcels together contain fifty or more acres, then the refund is equal to the flat fee assessments paid, reduced by the total of (i) seventeen dollars, (ii) twenty-seven cents for each acre exceeding fifty acres, and (iii) the total of the amounts retained by the county from such assessments under subsection (5) of this section.

Applications for refunds shall be submitted to the department on a form prescribed by the department and in the same year in which the assessments were paid. The department may not provide refunds to applicants who do not provide verification that all assessments and property taxes on the property have been paid. Applications may be made by mail.

In addition to the procedures under this subsection, property owners with multiple parcels in a single county who qualify for a refund under this section may apply to the department on an application listing all the parcels owned in order to have the assessment computed on all parcels but billed to a single parcel. Property owners with the following number of parcels may apply to the department in the year indicated:

Year Number of Parcels
2002 10 or more parcels
2003 8 or more parcels
2004 and thereafter 6 or more parcels"
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: fireweed on May 09, 2014, 03:07:58 PM
These are a couple interesting (and similar to garbage clean up?) points about the fire fighting fee:
Affects forest land owners
Could cost landowners money but costs aren't predictable each year
Cost Isn't caused by the forest land owners themselves
Flat fee on parcels (vs. on value or stumpage)
Fund can build up over time (and I've heard it's out there somewhere...)
fund acts sort of like insurance

Something similar for cleanup costs or rolling cleanup into this program could be an option.


Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: bearpaw on May 09, 2014, 03:30:54 PM
I'm looking for ideas and solutions and I'm willing to add any possible solutions to the poll, let me know if this fire fund is real and if you want it added to the poll.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: bigtex on May 09, 2014, 05:24:32 PM
I'm looking for ideas and solutions and I'm willing to add any possible solutions to the poll, let me know if this fire fund is real and if you want it added to the poll.
Good luck trying to take any money away from wildland fire funds. The past couple of years state and federal governments have underfunded fire programs so much they have to dip into other accounts to even fund the fire program because of the amount of fires we're having. If anything I think we'll see the $17 current fee increase if we continue to see bad fire years.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: PLUVIUSWAPITI on May 09, 2014, 07:27:14 PM
I remember when I was young and we would be driving  along I-5 at Fort Lewis and see the prisoner's  that were in the brig   
 picking up the litter on the highway. The guards were always packing a rifle of some kind. Bearpaw I have known about this Idaho tax and I would be willing to pay that yearly tax for free access to the dump.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: Humptulips on May 09, 2014, 10:39:14 PM
It seems to me there are two different subjects being discussed.
Dumping which to me is someone dumping a pick up load or a mattress or something large. They are intentionally loading it and hauling it out to dump.
The other is littering ie; lunch wrappers or what have you out the window.

I just don't see much dumping but what there is could best be stopped by making it easier to get rid of the stuff. As far as I know there is only one place to dump your garbage in GH County. It's about a 90 mile round trip for me to dump. We used to have a local dump back in the good old days bout 3 miles away and there was zero dumping elsewhere. It was free too.

Littering, I'm not sure you can solve it. The guy that throws cans and stuff out his window is too slovenly to change. Would it be more work to take it home, stop at a dumpster along the way or pitch it out the window.

The worst litterers around here are the brush pickers and the timber companies are fine with it.

Someone said the tweakers pick up all the metal and that is so true. You never see an appliance dumped anymore.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on May 10, 2014, 08:21:07 AM
 Dumped Appliances have built many gates throughout the last 40 years. Keep the price of scrap high.....
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: SCRUBS on May 10, 2014, 08:39:39 AM
If there identified problem areas: how about sting operations? I know they're resource intensive for LE, but it would send a clear message when the fines are laid to them.
It's done. About 4 years ago there was an article in the paper about a DNR "sting" on the Kitsap Peninsula involving 3 DNR LEOs. No cases were made and people complained to DNR about a waste of taxpayer dollars having three LEOs there and no cases being made.

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.....

I hear ya, them pesky tax payers wanting something for their money, expecting them to produce something? What do they think it`s the private sector or something :chuckle:

In all seriousness, unless it`s one or two specific sites they are dumping it would be next to impossible to catch them.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on May 10, 2014, 09:24:18 AM
 Technology is here we use it (game cams)  often. cameras at access ....loaded pickup driving in.......empty pickup driving out = what. Cars vans not as easy but WTH, why not?
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: buckfvr on May 10, 2014, 09:29:57 AM
There are far more sophisticated cameras being used.....only draw back is expense,  which means not enough of them in use............ :twocents:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: bearpaw on May 13, 2014, 03:25:05 PM
 :bumpin:  for more comments and votes....  :tup:
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: bearpaw on May 27, 2014, 04:15:00 PM
looking for more votes and comments....
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: mkcj on May 27, 2014, 04:33:56 PM
By advertising that the garbage will be picked up by someone else will only increase the problem! why would someone pay when they know someone else will pick up the mess they leave behind.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: Rainier10 on May 27, 2014, 04:34:15 PM
I voted for five of the top six.  I didn't vote for taxes on property.  The reason I think it works in Idaho to tax the property owners but wouldn't be fair in Washington is I believe there is probably a much higher group of renters in Washington that wouldn't get taxed.  I believe renters may have a higher likelihood of dumping trash, at least they do in my area.  Not to say that homeowners don't dump also.

I would also like to see free pickup of old appliances be offered.  There are tons of guys scrapping metal that if they were on call to pick stuff up would love to turn it into cash.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: logger on May 27, 2014, 04:39:00 PM
This got me to thinking about today's adventure with the forest service, we are starting a new job shortly and the road just became clear of snow, anyway the f.s sent 2 guys up said road to see if we could get up there before we drove hours for no reason[nice of them] it was open and we went up the next day and in one spot the road was covered in plastic bottles for a short ways, f.s. drove right over it twice, one of my crew stopped and threw it in the truck to dispose of in our shop dumpster, I was testing him and he passed!  I kinda like the idaho system I think, problem is some people are just to lazy period to go out of their way to dispose of it correctly even if you picked it up for em.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: bearpaw on May 28, 2014, 08:40:17 AM
By advertising that the garbage will be picked up by someone else will only increase the problem! why would someone pay when they know someone else will pick up the mess they leave behind.

The thought is that people will use the landfill or a dumping station if it doesn't cost them to take their trash there.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: bigtex on May 28, 2014, 08:43:51 AM
I kinda like the idaho system I think, problem is some people are just to lazy period to go out of their way to dispose of it correctly even if you picked it up for em.
:yeah:

Why drive 10 miles to drop it off in a dumpster if you can just dump it on public land in 3 miles?
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: Gringo31 on May 28, 2014, 08:45:29 AM
I am 99% against any new taxes.  This is one where I'd be in favor...

I've too have seen it work in Idaho.


I think people have a bunch of garbage in the back of their truck, realize that it may cost them $200 to dump the load and figure they'll save money by just dumping it in the forest. 
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: bearpaw on May 28, 2014, 08:46:21 AM
I voted for five of the top six.  I didn't vote for taxes on property.  The reason I think it works in Idaho to tax the property owners but wouldn't be fair in Washington is I believe there is probably a much higher group of renters in Washington that wouldn't get taxed.  I believe renters may have a higher likelihood of dumping trash, at least they do in my area.  Not to say that homeowners don't dump also.

I would also like to see free pickup of old appliances be offered.  There are tons of guys scrapping metal that if they were on call to pick stuff up would love to turn it into cash.

Landlords could add the cost of garbage onto the rent fee just as they do other expenses, the result is that the renter is paying for garbage but since there is no cost when they take their garbage to the landfill or dumping station that they will take it to the landfill or dumping station rather than drive to some place to dump it on the ground.

I will add your idea about old appliances to the poll, thanks for commenting.
Title: Re: Eliminating garbage from being dumped (poll added)
Post by: buckfvr on May 28, 2014, 09:13:20 AM
I would support a small property tax assessment  so long as it provided more localized dump stations.  30 miles is too far for many folks who can dump for free in 3 miles, or less.

Even in my Toyota, for me to run to Kettle to dump is 50+ miles round trip, and then add on the 12 to 14 bucks to just get rid of a short bed load of house hold.....usually 6 to 8 contractor bags of garbage.

Many of the folks around here just dump on their own land......disgusting in its own right.

If we are going to pay a tax, it has to be free ( dumping ) and localized, and in no way should this be rolled into a State Income tax......everything we ask for is immediately ran in that direction by Olympia......you'll see........
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