Post by: trophyhunt on May 11, 2014, 08:22:43 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on May 11, 2014, 08:44:34 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on May 11, 2014, 11:07:09 AM
What if your name and random numbers are last to be picked and all the low random numbers are already taken!? What order do the names get picked? Random too? ya right..if your picked last, you get what ever number is left. Could be the number 1 or could be 5,456? It's all random I hope, he also said if we have ideas to let them know. If we came up with a better way to draw and if it was supported by the majority on this site, it might be worth letting them know. But keep in mind it has to not take away income they are already receiving.
Post by: lamrith on May 11, 2014, 12:47:58 PM
People save up points for hopes of a better chance at getting chosen, some may wait many many years to build up points for that hunt of a lifetime. While in theory they still have a better chance, it is pretty diluted by then being given another random number thrown in. They throw in all their points and get chosen early, only to then get a mid/high number and be SOL anyway? I just don't see the point to that second randomization. In your example if there was only one permit given per year, you go from a 36in9000 chance to a 36 in 81,000,000 chance of getting that permit. statistically that is higher odds than someone with no points, but 1:81,000,000 vs 36in 81,000,000
Is there a reason they do not do a pure 1st draw, why so complicated? You got 36 names in for 6 points, your name gets drawn 1st, you get permit and rest of your names get pulled out of the hat, next person is drawn... probably save wdfw a ton of time and admin $ as well that they could spend on other things?
Post by: lamrith on May 11, 2014, 12:50:28 PM
Previous comment aside, thanks for filling us in on how it works currently, that is always good information to know and would explain why some people put points in and never see it pay off.What if your name and random numbers are last to be picked and all the low random numbers are already taken!? What order do the names get picked? Random too? ya right..if your picked last, you get what ever number is left. Could be the number 1 or could be 5,456? It's all random I hope, he also said if we have ideas to let them know. If we came up with a better way to draw and if it was supported by the majority on this site, it might be worth letting them know. But keep in mind it has to not take away income they are already receiving.
Post by: trophyhunt on May 11, 2014, 12:52:32 PM
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Post by: Bob33 on May 11, 2014, 12:57:34 PM
Post by: bobcat on May 11, 2014, 01:35:16 PM
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Post by: trophyhunt on May 11, 2014, 01:56:51 PM
There's nothing wrong with the way the draw is done. It's very simple. The more points you have, the more random numbers you are assigned, and that increases your chance of getting a low number.and that really is the bottom line, it's not perfect but I'm not sure how it could be? Unless I drew every year!!! :chuckle: :tung:
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Post by: chukar58 on May 11, 2014, 02:01:07 PM
Post by: dye7barrel on May 11, 2014, 02:17:00 PM
If you have 6 points, you have 36 names
What is the relation between number of points and number of names in the hat?
Also, thank you for sharing, good info.
Post by: bobcat on May 11, 2014, 02:39:46 PM
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Post by: elkh8me on May 11, 2014, 07:12:32 PM
Post by: spikehunter on May 11, 2014, 07:50:50 PM
Post by: muleyslayer on May 11, 2014, 08:32:21 PM
Kinda sounds like some people have an "in" :bash: :bash: :bash: Me I have the unluckiest # :yike: :yike: :yike: 16 points and still trying :tup:in what category do you have 16 points?
Post by: huntnphool on May 11, 2014, 08:54:00 PM
The person with 1 point has a chance of being drawn; the person with 19 points has a far greater chance. I have no problem with that.+1
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on May 11, 2014, 09:11:37 PM
hahahaha :DOH: Of course we do not want to throw away their income :chuckle:What if your name and random numbers are last to be picked and all the low random numbers are already taken!? What order do the names get picked? Random too? ya right..if your picked last, you get what ever number is left. Could be the number 1 or could be 5,456? It's all random I hope, he also said if we have ideas to let them know. If we came up with a better way to draw and if it was supported by the majority on this site, it might be worth letting them know. But keep in mind it has to not take away income they are already receiving.
Post by: GoBeavs85 on May 11, 2014, 10:46:26 PM
It has its challenges and Oregon is Far from perfect but I'm just not seeing the angle on why the WA system is better. Doesn't really seem to generate more revenue but maybe I'm just missing the economics.
I'm not bashing. I really want to understand.
Post by: idahohuntr on May 11, 2014, 10:52:06 PM
I recently moved from Oregon and have had a hard time understanding this. Why is this system better than Oregon? In Oregon if you have the most points for a certain hunt you are guaranteed the tag, not just given more names in the hat. With relative accuracy guys are able to calculate how many points each hunt takes to Draw. It's far easier to plan when you will actually draw. Helps with planning vacation, projects, and other family commitments. Points are extremely valuable so at the very least you always put in for a point saver(meaning revenue to the state). Still 25% of the draw is random to give that lotto feel to the have nots of the point world.I wouldn't say any state is particularly better or worse...just different in how they allocate tags. But I am of the opinion that Idaho has the very best point system in the world.
It has its challenges and Oregon is Far from perfect but I'm just not seeing the angle on why the WA system is better. Doesn't really seem to generate more revenue but maybe I'm just missing the economics.
I'm not bashing. I really want to understand.
Post by: Bigshooter on May 11, 2014, 11:02:45 PM
I recently moved from Oregon and have had a hard time understanding this. Why is this system better than Oregon? In Oregon if you have the most points for a certain hunt you are guaranteed the tag, not just given more names in the hat. With relative accuracy guys are able to calculate how many points each hunt takes to Draw. It's far easier to plan when you will actually draw. Helps with planning vacation, projects, and other family commitments. Points are extremely valuable so at the very least you always put in for a point saver(meaning revenue to the state). Still 25% of the draw is random to give that lotto feel to the have nots of the point world.I wouldn't say any state is particularly better or worse...just different in how they allocate tags. But I am of the opinion that Idaho has the very best point system in the world.
It has its challenges and Oregon is Far from perfect but I'm just not seeing the angle on why the WA system is better. Doesn't really seem to generate more revenue but maybe I'm just missing the economics.
I'm not bashing. I really want to understand.
You mean draw system.
Post by: idahohuntr on May 11, 2014, 11:45:24 PM
Nope...I meant they have the best point system. :chuckle:I recently moved from Oregon and have had a hard time understanding this. Why is this system better than Oregon? In Oregon if you have the most points for a certain hunt you are guaranteed the tag, not just given more names in the hat. With relative accuracy guys are able to calculate how many points each hunt takes to Draw. It's far easier to plan when you will actually draw. Helps with planning vacation, projects, and other family commitments. Points are extremely valuable so at the very least you always put in for a point saver(meaning revenue to the state). Still 25% of the draw is random to give that lotto feel to the have nots of the point world.I wouldn't say any state is particularly better or worse...just different in how they allocate tags. But I am of the opinion that Idaho has the very best point system in the world.
It has its challenges and Oregon is Far from perfect but I'm just not seeing the angle on why the WA system is better. Doesn't really seem to generate more revenue but maybe I'm just missing the economics.
I'm not bashing. I really want to understand.
You mean draw system.
Post by: grundy53 on May 12, 2014, 04:55:12 AM
I agree.Nope...I meant they have the best point system. :chuckle:I recently moved from Oregon and have had a hard time understanding this. Why is this system better than Oregon? In Oregon if you have the most points for a certain hunt you are guaranteed the tag, not just given more names in the hat. With relative accuracy guys are able to calculate how many points each hunt takes to Draw. It's far easier to plan when you will actually draw. Helps with planning vacation, projects, and other family commitments. Points are extremely valuable so at the very least you always put in for a point saver(meaning revenue to the state). Still 25% of the draw is random to give that lotto feel to the have nots of the point world.I wouldn't say any state is particularly better or worse...just different in how they allocate tags. But I am of the opinion that Idaho has the very best point system in the world.
It has its challenges and Oregon is Far from perfect but I'm just not seeing the angle on why the WA system is better. Doesn't really seem to generate more revenue but maybe I'm just missing the economics.
I'm not bashing. I really want to understand.
You mean draw system.
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Post by: lamrith on May 12, 2014, 06:15:33 AM
I recently moved from Oregon and have had a hard time understanding this. Why is this system better than Oregon? In Oregon if you have the most points for a certain hunt you are guaranteed the tag, not just given more names in the hat. With relative accuracy guys are able to calculate how many points each hunt takes to Draw. It's far easier to plan when you will actually draw. Helps with planning vacation, projects, and other family commitments. Points are extremely valuable so at the very least you always put in for a point saver(meaning revenue to the state). Still 25% of the draw is random to give that lotto feel to the have nots of the point world.That is what I was trying to get across with my comments. People need to plan well in advance for some of these hunts, as they may be once in a lifetime. Why does WA go with this complex double random routine? Sure you get points squared, but still a second randomization, why? It should be enough that you get drawn #1, #2, etc.
It has its challenges and Oregon is Far from perfect but I'm just not seeing the angle on why the WA system is better. Doesn't really seem to generate more revenue but maybe I'm just missing the economics.
I'm not bashing. I really want to understand.
I think a Simple initial Random draw should be more than sufficient, unless they double up because the 1st draw is/can be rigged because it is manual draw?
As much as I would love my 2nd year to get drawn for one of the amazing hunts there are a few reasons I should NOT be.
#1 I am new, my skillset is not going to be equal to one of you that has been hunting since childhood. I may or may not harvest anything (goal here is herd control right?)
#2 Being new buck fever will be strong and I may take a young healthy animal rather than the older less healthy but more wiley animal. Younger will have more breeding life and diversity to long term herd.
#3 Some of you have been hunting for a LONG time, you have devoted your time blood and money to this states hunting and should have some reward for all those years.
Post by: D-Rock425 on May 12, 2014, 06:50:10 AM
Post by: fishngamereaper on May 12, 2014, 07:26:22 AM
Post by: bobcat on May 12, 2014, 08:44:44 AM
The applications are assigned some random numbers. The lowest number is then used to determine the order in which that application comes up. If your number is low enough, when your application is pulled there will still be permits left for one of the hunts you listed on your application, and bingo you just drew a permit. If not, you get to keep your points and hope for better luck next year.
That entire process is the "drawing." It's ONE drawing, not two. It's all computerized, of course. Would you guys rather they do it the old fashioned way and throw all the names in a hat and draw them out one at a time?
Post by: sakoshooter on May 12, 2014, 08:46:35 AM
One reason this system is better for WA(Hunter) is because there's always a chance.
That being said, I'd like to see the drawing run like this: All 1st choice applicants for a given hunt drawn together. If any tags are left, draw the second choice applicants for that hunt and so on.
Every year I hear about people that draw a tag for their 3rd or 4th choice that they really have no intention of using but filled in the blank on the application. Of if they do go, it's only for the weekend or whatever because they don't know the GMU.
Post by: Bob33 on May 12, 2014, 08:48:24 AM
What's this talk of a "double drawing?" ???That's correct. If you have 10 points, you have 100 names in the hat. Only 1 of the 100 has the best chance of being drawn first, so the other 99 are irrelevant and essentially ignored. Our system works as intended.
The applications are assigned some random numbers. The lowest number is then used to determine the order in which that application comes up. If your number is low enough, when your application is pulled there will still be permits left for one of the hunts you listed on your application, and bingo you just drew a permit. If not, you get to keep your points and hope for better luck next year.
That entire process is the "drawing." It's ONE drawing, not two. It's all computerized, of course. Would you guys rather they do it the old fashioned way and throw all the names in a hat and draw them out one at a time?
Post by: CavemantheHunter on May 12, 2014, 09:52:17 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on May 12, 2014, 10:02:35 AM
How does this number system work when you're applying as a group? Is each person in the group assigned different numbers, or is the entire group assigned one set of numbers?I believe only the group leader will be assigned a number.
Post by: trophyhunt on May 12, 2014, 10:11:47 AM
:yeah:How does this number system work when you're applying as a group? Is each person in the group assigned different numbers, or is the entire group assigned one set of numbers?I believe only the group leader will be assigned a number.
Post by: idahohuntr on May 12, 2014, 10:14:53 AM
What's this talk of a "double drawing?" ???:yeah: The draw is RANDOM...seems some folks are confused about what random means?? Can you imagine how long the "are results out yet" thread would be if they did it the "old fashioned way" :chuckle: :chuckle:
The applications are assigned some random numbers. The lowest number is then used to determine the order in which that application comes up. If your number is low enough, when your application is pulled there will still be permits left for one of the hunts you listed on your application, and bingo you just drew a permit. If not, you get to keep your points and hope for better luck next year.
That entire process is the "drawing." It's ONE drawing, not two. It's all computerized, of course. Would you guys rather they do it the old fashioned way and throw all the names in a hat and draw them out one at a time?
Post by: vandeman17 on May 12, 2014, 10:15:36 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on May 12, 2014, 10:17:33 AM
I say they go old school and do something like putting all applicants names on a wall of a monkey's cage based on number of points and then let the monkey throw his poo and whatever it hits will be the chosen names. After all, this whole permit draw game is a complete crap shoot anyway right? :chuckle:i love it! Why didn't I think of that, lol!
Post by: vandeman17 on May 12, 2014, 10:22:04 AM
I say they go old school and do something like putting all applicants names on a wall of a monkey's cage based on number of points and then let the monkey throw his poo and whatever it hits will be the chosen names. After all, this whole permit draw game is a complete crap shoot anyway right? :chuckle:i love it! Why didn't I think of that, lol!
Nice and simple!