Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Deer Hunting => Topic started by: B.G.hunter on May 13, 2014, 02:05:52 PM

Title: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: B.G.hunter on May 13, 2014, 02:05:52 PM: This was interesting read in the May/June 2014 issue of MDF magazine.
http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/pdf/mdwg/mdwg-6_point_restrictions.pdf (http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/pdf/mdwg/mdwg-6_point_restrictions.pdf)
Washington :bash:
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: vandeman17 on May 13, 2014, 02:24:36 PM: Pretty spot on to me. I know that most of the restrictions they implemented here were supposed to be for certain time periods and then back to normal be we all know the chances of that... :DOH:
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: baldopepper on May 13, 2014, 02:36:32 PM: Good article-hunted in Utah when they tried the APR and it was a disaster. I've been against it here for the reasons outlined in the article, but Washington either wants to learn the hard way or just doesn't care. I firmly believe that if you want to bring a herd back you just have to quit hunting them for a few years and hope for a couple of good winters. Watched them try APR to bring back several herds in Utah to no avail, when they finally restricted hunting low and behold the herds recovered. Painful to see your hunting area closed for a few years, but pays off in the long run. Just my :twocents: based on over 50 years of deer hunting and observing.
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: tonymiller7 on May 13, 2014, 02:54:38 PM: I know where I hunt the 3 point or better rule has done an awesome job of creating GIANT 2-Point mulies. :bash:
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: DoubleJ on May 13, 2014, 03:09:00 PM: Quote from: tonymiller7 on May 13, 2014, 02:54:38 PM
I know where I hunt the 3 point or better rule has done an awesome job of creating GIANT 2-Point mulies. :bash:

x2 :yeah:
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: Maverick on May 13, 2014, 05:06:52 PM: I'm a firm believer in aprs. Where we hunt it has done a great job in producing monster bucks. I know of a place that could do with out it due to big 2 points but where I hunt that isn't an issue. Why would anyone want to shoot a spike or little 2 point Muley? The 3 point and better bucks are out there! Most people are just too lazy to go hike for them. My dad has been very successful with harvesting 150 class plus Muleys since the apr was set in place. I'll be very disappointed if the apr is removed where I hunt. Anyone that wants to shoot a dink should go on the west side and hunt blacktail.
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: BiggLuke on May 13, 2014, 07:11:05 PM: Quote from: tonymiller7 on May 13, 2014, 02:54:38 PM
I know where I hunt the 3 point or better rule has done an awesome job of creating GIANT 2-Point mulies. :bash:

:yeah:
Exactly.....
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: coachcw on May 13, 2014, 07:59:52 PM: they could limit tribal harvest by going draw only ! there is no 50% in an open unit.
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: Elliott on May 14, 2014, 05:50:32 AM: I wouldnt mind getting a monster 2 point! Need to get those genes out of the pool!
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: Fl0und3rz on May 14, 2014, 05:56:10 AM: I don't know how anyone can believe in this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection)

and not come to understand that the selective pressure on over-APR bucks will result in an overabundance of sub-APR bucks.
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: boneaddict on May 14, 2014, 05:59:31 AM: I fully support APRs. THey have worked miracles in the units I grew up in. One of the best moves the WDFW has ever done.
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: Ridgerunner on May 14, 2014, 06:04:07 AM: Apr isn't why we've seen the better bucks, it's called nine day seasons when most bucks are still tough to get to. I don't see how Apr works when you are harvesting your breeding bucks before they breed.
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: Ridgerunner on May 14, 2014, 06:05:44 AM: Before the big winter kill and Apr the general deer season went through November 10 in Chelan county. It's no wonder the bucks were hammered.
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: huntnnw on May 14, 2014, 06:17:14 AM: as for whitetails and aprs they work! its astounding the difference in units that have no aprs versus aprs
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: grundy53 on May 14, 2014, 06:23:26 AM: Quote from: boneaddict on May 14, 2014, 05:59:31 AM
I fully support APRs. THey have worked miracles in the units I grew up in. One of the best moves the WDFW has ever done.
I support them too. I LOVE what they have done for the elk where I hunt on the Westside.

sent from my typewriter
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: B.G.hunter on May 14, 2014, 07:09:17 AM: Quote from: Ridgerunner on May 14, 2014, 06:04:07 AM
Apr isn't why we've seen the better bucks, it's called nine day seasons when most bucks are still tough to get to. I don't see how Apr works when you are harvesting your breeding bucks before they breed.
:yeah:
Totally agree
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: baldopepper on May 14, 2014, 07:42:22 AM: Quote from: B.G.hunter on May 14, 2014, 07:09:17 AM
Quote from: Ridgerunner on May 14, 2014, 06:04:07 AM
Apr isn't why we've seen the better bucks, it's called nine day seasons when most bucks are still tough to get to. I don't see how Apr works when you are harvesting your breeding bucks before they breed.
:yeah:
Totally agree
I also agree-we are definitely seeing more deer in Unit 121 since the APR went into effect, but it has a lot to do with the fact that they did away with the antlerless permits they had been allocating (it was either 1,000 or 2,000) in the years before they went to the APR and we've had great winter conditions the last 2 years. As the study shows, consistently areas that have relied on the APR to improve the herds have failed in the long run.
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: golfguy0912 on May 14, 2014, 11:58:29 AM: while I do agree with some points in that article, I fully support APR's. If these monster two points are really that big of an issue, and more areas with two point only special permits as they have done in some areas. In the areas that I hunt I don't believe we have a healthy enough local population of mule deer to support going back to any buck without causing significant damage to the population. It looks like the two options are either shut it down for a few years and "hope" for mild winters, or APR's. I would pick APR's every time.
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: grundy53 on May 14, 2014, 01:28:40 PM: Quote from: golfguy0912 on May 14, 2014, 11:58:29 AM
while I do agree with some points in that article, I fully support APR's. If these monster two points are really that big of an issue, and more areas with two point only special permits as they have done in some areas. In the areas that I hunt I don't believe we have a healthy enough local population of mule deer to support going back to any buck without causing significant damage to the population. It looks like the two options are either shut it down for a few years and "hope" for mild winters, or APR's. I would pick APR's every time.
There is a third option. Go to permit only for mulies.

sent from my typewriter
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: vandeman17 on May 14, 2014, 01:48:18 PM: Keeping a certain group of people out of their wintering range would help too.

I would be ok with going to permit only for certain areas if I could guarantee that it would go back to normal when the herd was back to being prosperous. Considering the likelihood of that, guess I am against permit only. :chuckle:
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: baldopepper on May 14, 2014, 01:49:36 PM: The problem, as the study points out, is there is no option for just an APR. Attempt after attempt has been made and it just doesn't help the herd, and that's the bottom line. Some combination of APR and restricted hunting works, but not as well as just restricted hunting. No one likes that, but if that's what it takes to get a herd back to healthy levels then so be it. The key being a healthy population and shooting off the larger, mature breeding bucks and leaving the breeding to smaller, possibly not as strong or healthy bucks has proven in the long run to be very counter productive. It's not a matter of wanting to shoot spikes or two points-it's just proven science that produces a healthy population that will have it's share of bigger,mature bucks if that's what you want to hunt.
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: grundy53 on May 14, 2014, 01:51:34 PM: Quote from: vandeman17 on May 14, 2014, 01:48:18 PM
Keeping a certain group of people out of their wintering range would help too.

I would be ok with going to permit only for certain areas if I could guarantee that it would go back to normal when the herd was back to being prosperous. Considering the likelihood of that, guess I am against permit only. :chuckle:
I agree.

sent from my typewriter
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: B.G.hunter on May 14, 2014, 02:17:27 PM: Quote from: grundy53 on May 14, 2014, 01:28:40 PM
Quote from: golfguy0912 on May 14, 2014, 11:58:29 AM
while I do agree with some points in that article, I fully support APR's. If these monster two points are really that big of an issue, and more areas with two point only special permits as they have done in some areas. In the areas that I hunt I don't believe we have a healthy enough local population of mule deer to support going back to any buck without causing significant damage to the population. It looks like the two options are either shut it down for a few years and "hope" for mild winters, or APR's. I would pick APR's every time.
There is a third option. Go to permit only for mulies.

sent from my typewriter
There may be a fourth option also and micro manage deer by sub species blacktail/whitetail/mule deer having hunter choose the one they are going to pursue. Or do a system similar to Idaho and have a regular tag with shorter seasons or a designated whitetail tag with longer and more favorable season. I see these types as needing a limited entry or some sort of APR still but it may take some pressure off the struggling mule deer herds. As for the giant two points I think we need to have a youth draw tags for two points after the general season maybe during the week of Veterans day so they can get some of there genes thinned out.
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: grundy53 on May 14, 2014, 02:19:37 PM: Quote from: B.G.hunter on May 14, 2014, 02:17:27 PM
Quote from: grundy53 on May 14, 2014, 01:28:40 PM
Quote from: golfguy0912 on May 14, 2014, 11:58:29 AM
while I do agree with some points in that article, I fully support APR's. If these monster two points are really that big of an issue, and more areas with two point only special permits as they have done in some areas. In the areas that I hunt I don't believe we have a healthy enough local population of mule deer to support going back to any buck without causing significant damage to the population. It looks like the two options are either shut it down for a few years and "hope" for mild winters, or APR's. I would pick APR's every time.
There is a third option. Go to permit only for mulies.

sent from my typewriter
There may be a fourth option also and micro manage deer by sub species blacktail/whitetail/mule deer having hunter choose the one they are going to pursue. Or do a system similar to Idaho and have a regular tag with shorter seasons or a designated whitetail tag with longer and more favorable season. I see these types as needing a limited entry or some sort of APR still but it may take some pressure off the struggling mule deer herds. As for the giant two points I think we need to have a youth draw tags for two points after the general season maybe during the week of Veterans day so they can get some of there genes thinned out.
I like your 4th option a lot.

sent from my typewriter
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: baldopepper on May 14, 2014, 02:38:25 PM: I think maybe the best way to look at it is to look at it like cattlemen do. You don't see them selling or slaughtering their big, healthy mature bulls and leaving the breeding randomly up to smaller, unproven bulls. Getting a bigger population is not necessarily an indicator of a healthy herd. You'd like to see a gene pool of stronger, healthy animals that have a better chance of surviving bad winters, predators, or disease. Given a long term shoot off of the bigger mature bucks and eventually you end up with a herd of predominately smaller, weaker animals-that's what's happened in other states that have used the APR for herd management. Not a one or two year development, but down the road a bit and that's what you see. Perhaps the posts of giant two points is an early example of a gene pool that's been limited.
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: Maverick on May 14, 2014, 03:46:26 PM: Change the rule to 3 point or smaller for mule deer and must get drawn for the big Muleys? Like the spike only rule for elk? :dunno:

I honestly hope that never happens!
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: sakoshooter on May 15, 2014, 03:03:19 AM: Quote from: boneaddict on May 14, 2014, 05:59:31 AM
I fully support APRs. THey have worked miracles in the units I grew up in. One of the best moves the WDFW has ever done.

I have to agree with ya Bone. Much more mature bucks around since the 3pt rule was implemented. Just have to hunt a bit harder for them most days.
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: Shane54 on May 16, 2014, 07:50:59 PM: Quote from: tonymiller7 on May 13, 2014, 02:54:38 PM
I know where I hunt the 3 point or better rule has done an awesome job of creating GIANT 2-Point mulies. :bash:
I FEEL YOUR PAIN! :yeah: :bash:
Title: Re: UNDERSTANDING MULE DEER AND ANTLER POINT RESTRICTIONS
Post by: Shane54 on May 16, 2014, 07:55:04 PM: What if mule deer went to 2pt min :dunno: :twocents: