Hunting Washington Forum
Big Game Hunting => Out Of State Hunting => Topic started by: idahohuntr on June 29, 2014, 12:07:31 PM
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http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/viewNewsRelease.cfm?newsID=7197 (http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/viewNewsRelease.cfm?newsID=7197)
I wonder what they are thinking of doing?? If you drew a good tag I would buy it now...make it harder for them to take your tag away :chuckle: :chuckle:
Seriously though, the only thing I can think is they would disqualify tags from any 10/11 year old that drew (or their group) and re-issue those tags randomly to the remaining, eligible applicants in the pool.
I can see the conundrum, but I don't think they should have allowed the ineligible applicants to remain in the first place...rules are rules and it is very unfair to all of the 10/11 year olds whose parents played by the rules and did not include them in the draw.
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Thanks for this news.
Although I am affected by this (whatever IDFG does, it can't get any worse for me ;)), I really respect their proactive stance on this. I have always felt that F&G in Idaho is very responsive to the hunting and fishing community.
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should do something..what is this showing to sportsman if they let it be? its okay to skirt the law in ID. Its wrong and it shouldnt of happened and it should be rectified
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11 year olds prior to july 1st were eligible under the old rules IF they would be twelve by the hunt dates of the controlled hunt. I put my son 11 in for a late moose hunt where he was eligible because he would be twelve by the nov hunt date. Anyways, I agree need to do something for the ones that were not eligible it was pretty obviouse in the regs that the 9-10 year olds couldnt apply. They had it in there pretty plain that they were not eligible. Simple solution would be pull the tags from who was not eligible but drew and re-draw those tags with the remaining applicants , maybe then I might actually draw something! No way should they let em have the tags it was plainly stated in the regs.
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http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/viewNewsRelease.cfm?newsID=7197 (http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/viewNewsRelease.cfm?newsID=7197)
ID is going to post on there website today what they are going to do about this.
I was told that there is a group of people that have contacted ID about a class action lawsuit if they allow the original draw results to be final.
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http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/viewNewsRelease.cfm?newsID=7197 (http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/viewNewsRelease.cfm?newsID=7197)
ID is going to post on there website today what they are going to do about this.
I was told that there is a group of people that have contacted ID about a class action lawsuit if they allow the original draw results to be final.
I suspect legal counsel had advised them this would not hold up under challenge. You can't just choose to ignore state law because it would be inconvenient and upset folks.
Have you heard any rumblings about what the proposed solution might entail?
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I have not heard what the solution will be. But I was told that the group that is considering the lawsuit wants all ineligible applications to be withdrawn and for a new draw to take place.
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It doesn't look like ID will be posting today what they plan to do. The news release link has no new information about this.
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http://www.kmvt.com/news/local/Hunters-Protesting-Fish-And-Game-Decision-265286261.html (http://www.kmvt.com/news/local/Hunters-Protesting-Fish-And-Game-Decision-265286261.html)
http://m.idahostatejournal.com/members/outcry-causes-fish-and-game-to-rethink-letting-children-younger/article_6a230c8c-ff6d-11e3-a342-001a4bcf887a.html?mode=jqm (http://m.idahostatejournal.com/members/outcry-causes-fish-and-game-to-rethink-letting-children-younger/article_6a230c8c-ff6d-11e3-a342-001a4bcf887a.html?mode=jqm)
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I have not heard what the solution will be. But I was told that the group that is considering the lawsuit wants all ineligible applications to be withdrawn and for a new draw to take place.
A complete re-draw...i.e., rescinding tags from all applicants...or just re-drawing the tags from ineligible winners?
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Complete redraw is how I understood it. IDFG will have an announcement tomorrow it sounds like.
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This must be why I haven't gotten my money back. Well, round two here we come. Hope for better odds...
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Complete redraw is how I understood it. IDFG will have an announcement tomorrow it sounds like.
Wow...that is what I am starting to hear from others as well...the contention is the the draw is invalid and an entirely new one is required. This will really irk the guys who drew tough tags that don't get them in the new draw!!! Didn't Washington have to do this several years ago?
This must be why I haven't gotten my money back. Well, round two here we come. Hope for better odds...
There are no refunds in the Deer/Elk/Antelope draws...only the OIL species tag refunds. Your application fee and hunting lic. are non-refundable and you don't have to buy a tag to put in for D/E/A in Idaho.
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Washington never really did a "redraw" because they never officially posted results.
So this situation in Idaho is much different than anything we've ever experienced.
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Tag
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I cant see how they could possibly retract tags that we have already purchased for those of us that were drawn !!!!!
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I cant see how they could possibly retract tags that we have already purchased for those of us that were drawn !!!!!
Sounds like that is what is going to happen because the draw should have never happened and will be considered invalid. Not trying to be a jerk it's just what I have been told.
I feel for you. I know if I would have drawn and then told I can't have the tag or I have to return it because of a technical error I would not be happy.
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I don't see a redraw. It opens the door for so many more variables to come into play. I could see them retracting the ineligible apps and making any tags drawn available in the second draw, but a complete redraw this far beyond the actual drawing date would be unlikely.
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Good luck getting the tag back from my Dad :bdid:
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I don't see a redraw. It opens the door for so many more variables to come into play. I could see them retracting the ineligible apps and making any tags drawn available in the second draw, but a complete redraw this far beyond the actual drawing date would be unlikely.
I would agree with that train of thought. However, I think you along with a couple others would have different responses if you didn't draw. :chuckle: Anyhow, going to be very interesting come tomorrow........
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Wow either way it sounds like there's gonna be a decent sized group mad at idaho for this. That would suck if it's redraw for the lucky tagholders! I wouldn't mind another chance but I don't think they will completely redraw.
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From what I have heard today. I will be very surprised if there is not a redraw. The lawsuit that is being present to ID is that the draw should have never taken place because of ineligible applications thus making the entire draw results invalid.
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I don't see a redraw. It opens the door for so many more variables to come into play. I could see them retracting the ineligible apps and making any tags drawn available in the second draw, but a complete redraw this far beyond the actual drawing date would be unlikely.
I would agree with that train of thought. However, I think you along with a couple others would have different responses if you didn't draw. :chuckle: Anyhow, going to be very interesting come tomorrow........
I wouldn't mind a redraw, give me a chance to double up deer and elk tags. Gotta catch up after having to take last year off. Ha ha ha
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:chuckle: Might as well sink the dagger, eih? :chuckle:
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I cant see how they could possibly retract tags that we have already purchased for those of us that were drawn !!!!!
Sounds like that is what is going to happen because the draw should have never happened and will be considered invalid. Not trying to be a jerk it's just what I have been told.
I feel for you. I know if I would have drawn and then told I can't have the tag or I have to return it because of a technical error I would not be happy.
:yeah:
Exactly...any hunt where even a single ineligible applicant was arbitrarily included could be deemed as having invalid results...even if no 10 year olds were drawn...requiring a re-draw of those specific hunts...given there were ~3500 ineligible applicants I would guess a good chunk of all the deer and elk hunts, especially the popular/high demand ones could be affected. :dunno:
As far as rescinding tags...a letter would be sent to all tag holders who do not re-draw and your tag would no longer be valid...refund or exchange for a general tag would be your options I suspect. That is the least of IDFG's problems at this point. I did not draw anything and I agree that if they invalidate the results and take tags away from people who drew that would suck...and is very unfair to folks that were eligible and drew. But as we all now when we are talking legal action and lawsuits...fair and legal are 2 very, very different things.
If I was a holding a really good tag I would be on pins and needles right now...but I've already accepted my loss and planned accordingly so a re-draw would just muck up all of my planning were I to draw something with whatever they end up doing :yike:
No matter what, IDFG is going to have a whole bunch of po'd people...so I presume their decision will be based entirely on what is legally defensible. And it sounds like Bigshooter has some good info...if I remember correctly you were the one who mentioned draw results being a little delayed because of this 9/10 yo stuff before the initial results were even posted?
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From what I have heard today. I will be very surprised if there is not a redraw. The lawsuit that is being present to ID is that the draw should have never taken place because of ineligible applications thus making the entire draw results invalid.
Everybody has to have a dream. Ha ha.
Unfortunately, even a redraw does not fix the issue. This is why it will not happen. It's a lose-lose anyway you slice it.
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From what I have heard today. I will be very surprised if there is not a redraw. The lawsuit that is being present to ID is that the draw should have never taken place because of ineligible applications thus making the entire draw results invalid.
Everybody has to have a dream. Ha ha.
Unfortunately, even a redraw does not fix the issue. This is why it will not happen. It's a lose-lose anyway you slice it.
It does not fix the issue but it will keep ID out out of court if there is a redraw. Laws were broken and there is a group of people willing to sue because the laws were not followed. That is why I think there will be a redraw at this point. I do agree that it is a lose-lose.
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hey bigshooter, would this apply to the oils? I sure hope not.
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2014 winners - start calling Idaho F&G voicing your concerns about a redraw. I'll get the lawyer lined up. Start up counseling, have your doctor prescribe anti-anxiety meds, lets get ready to roll. Ha ha ha
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Does not include the OIL draw.
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hey bigshooter, would this apply to the oils? I sure hope not.
No. But I wonder why this didn't happen in the OIL draw? Or if it did and nothing was said.
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I cant see how they could possibly retract tags that we have already purchased for those of us that were drawn !!!!!
Sounds like that is what is going to happen because the draw should have never happened and will be considered invalid. Not trying to be a jerk it's just what I have been told.
I feel for you. I know if I would have drawn and then told I can't have the tag or I have to return it because of a technical error I would not be happy.
:yeah:
Exactly...any hunt where even a single ineligible applicant was arbitrarily included could be deemed as having invalid results...even if no 10 year olds were drawn...requiring a re-draw of those specific hunts...given there were ~3500 ineligible applicants I would guess a good chunk of all the deer and elk hunts, especially the popular/high demand ones could be affected. :dunno:
As far as rescinding tags...a letter would be sent to all tag holders who do not re-draw and your tag would no longer be valid...refund or exchange for a general tag would be your options I suspect. That is the least of IDFG's problems at this point. I did not draw anything and I agree that if they invalidate the results and take tags away from people who drew that would suck...and is very unfair to folks that were eligible and drew. But as we all now when we are talking legal action and lawsuits...fair and legal are 2 very, very different things.
If I was a holding a really good tag I would be on pins and needles right now...but I've already accepted my loss and planned accordingly so a re-draw would just muck up all of my planning were I to draw something with whatever they end up doing :yike:
No matter what, IDFG is going to have a whole bunch of po'd people...so I presume their decision will be based entirely on what is legally defensible. And it sounds like Bigshooter has some good info...if I remember correctly you were the one who mentioned draw results being a little delayed because of this 9/10 yo stuff before the initial results were even posted?
I may have posted it but I think someone posted it before I did. And what I was told then is that they were removing all of the ineligible applications. So I don't know what happened and why they went ahead and included them in the draw.
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Somebody has to feel like an Ass for making such a big stink about this. I mean its about a deadline of a couple weeks and taking tags away from kids. Sure wish I had a tag but would rather see a kid shoot a buck/bull in the end. I understand a rule is a rule but come on this really seems pretty ridiculous!
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Somebody has to feel like an Ass for making such a big stink about this. I mean its about a deadline of a couple weeks and taking tags away from kids. Sure wish I had a tag but would rather see a kid shoot a buck/bull in the end. I understand a rule is a rule but come on this really seems pretty ridiculous!
1,000 kids didn't follow the rules and may have drawn a tag. 4,000 kids did follow the rules and none of them drew a tag.
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Its much more than the kids...its the point and that a govt agency thinks its okay to let things slide that they set in place...So is it now okay for me to start hunting a day early cause its so close to opening day? or I was close to the unit boundary.
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Verbatim from pg 108 of the 2014 IDFG regs:
Effective July 1, 2014 – the minimum age to hunt big game
was lowered from 12 to 10. A 9-year old may buy a license to
apply for a controlled hunt tag, but he or she must be 10 years
old at the time of the hunt.
Since this law does not take effect until July 1, 2014, hunters
who are 10 cannot apply for big game controlled hunts in the
first controlled hunt application periods (April-June), but a
9-year old who will turn 10 during the season can apply in the
second application period in August.
I'm becoming more convinced we are going to have a re-draw :bash: Voluntary or court-ordered I am uncertain...IDFG's lawyers are huddled with their PR folks right now I imagine. :chuckle:
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plain as day and the parents that applied the kids should be sent a citation
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Any word on what's happening today? I know a couple guy with unit 11 tags that are nervous
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FUBAR.
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Like I said earlier, I rather like IDFG. But this is a total mess.
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No redraw. Kids get to keep their tags, 363 drawn tags added back to the pool for 12 y/o and above.
Probably the best that they could do given the circumstances.
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No redraw. Kids get to keep their tags, 363 drawn tags added back to the pool for 12 y/o and above.
Probably the best that they could do given the circumstances.
so they're giving out extra tags?
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That is the way that I read it?
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That is the way that I read it?
Where did you read this?
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Posted on MM.
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Wonder if non residents will get a chance at any of the 363 tags that are added back??? Wonder how many of the original 363 tags were given to nonresident 9-11 year olds.
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Wonder if non residents will get a chance at any of the 363 tags that are added back??? Wonder how many of the original 363 tags were given to nonresident 9-11 year olds.
Probably depends on whether or not the non-resident quota was met on the initial drawing?
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Hopefully they won't count any of the 363 9-11 year old tags towards the nonresident quota. Even if they were awarded to nonresident kids.
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I would expect all of the same rules to apply (i.e. NR entitled to (up to) 10% of the tags).
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JJ, do you have a link for the decision?
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It's posted on IDFG website now.
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This is gonna get interesting. Kind of like a second second draw...
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What about all the kids that didnt apply because it was illegal according to fish and game? >:( I would be pissed if I held a kid out only to find d out that other kids who broke the rules got tags... then to just add tags to hunts? :bash:
I guess we can all pick a law in idaho to ignore now... there own department set a precedent of breaking them...
I guess the free entry into the second draw for the kids who followed the rules is a small step in the right direction...
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No law was broken - a policy, but not a law.
I truly believe that the F&G were operating under the best of intentions from a customer service perspective. Unfortunately, in an attempt to appease all parties, the commissioner placed most of the burden on the herds with issuing extra tags.
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I'm anxious to see the list of tags to be re-drawn...
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I have 2 kids in for youth deer tags, elk and antelope tags.
My 19 year old drew a deer tag. But also is in for elk and antelope tags.
So I'm curious how they will handle the resident/nonresident issue in the re-draw. And I wonder if 9-11 year old non-residents drew the nonresident quota for their hunts???
Be interesting to see how forthcoming they are with information and how it affects everyone know that everyone's situation is a bit different.
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I would be surprised if very many 9-11 yo non-residents were drawn in the first place. :dunno: They will hold the NR quota as up to 10% (i think...obviously they just make stuff up as they go along :chuckle: ). It will all depend on what hunts are going to be re-drawn...given that ~30% of the 9/10 y.o. applicants drew, I'm guessing the bulk of the redrawn hunts are going to be fairly high odds doe/cow tags. I doubt there will be very many (if any) 11,44,45,40, etc. deer/elk/antelope tags to redraw...but who knows.
I do believe there should be some firings/resignations over this cluster. The allocation of scarce public resources should not be predicated on haphazard and arbitrary decision making. This casts doubt on the legitimacy of future draws, makes the agency look really stupid, and unnecessarily angers large numbers of sportsmen.
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No law was broken - a policy, but not a law.
I truly believe that the F&G were operating under the best of intentions from a customer service perspective. Unfortunately, in an attempt to appease all parties, the commissioner placed most of the burden on the herds with issuing extra tags.
your correct... the whole thing is a grease fire. According to the game laws pamphlet the apps should have been disallowed. I would be very upset if I had a child who I didn't enter into the draw because of the book... come to find out they could have been entered. I also agree that the wildlife and management of wildlife should take the brunt of someone's screw up.
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I truly believe that the F&G were operating under the best of intentions from a customer service perspective.
I don't. It is a huge disservice to the hundreds of thousands of sportsmen who play by the rules. This was a political move where the director thought the backlash from keeping the rules in place would cause too much negative press. Despite strong opposition from his staff he chose this path. He should be fired...and I'm sure the Commissioners will discuss this next week. He seriously damaged the agencies reputation and credibility. I can't imagine any sportsmen are happy with how any of this was handled.
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http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/appDecision2014.pdf (http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/appDecision2014.pdf)
I don't know if I can agree with the "tar & feather" brigade. I am not carrying water for the Director, but I believe his explanation and apology to be satisfactory. He admits that his staff and he--personally--made some mistakes, and he takes responsibility for these errors. What else could you ask him to do?
If everybody fell on a sword every time there was a mistake, we would live in a very lonely world.
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It's unfortunate the way it all happened, and I don't agree with the final solution, but they definitely were put in a tough spot. No matter what they did, it would have been wrong. I bet nothing like this will happen again, at least not anytime soon.
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They just posted available tags
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No law was broken - a policy, but not a law.
I truly believe that the F&G were operating under the best of intentions from a customer service perspective. Unfortunately, in an attempt to appease all parties, the commissioner placed most of the burden on the herds with issuing extra tags.
+1, the only ones suffering this brain fart are the herds.
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When you look at the tags available in each unit there will be little or no impact to the herds. The biggest hit is unit 45 doe tag and they are issuing 24 permits.
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anyone see when the second drawing will be? i did not see it on their sight.
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the entire draw system in ID is a sham!! its fraudulent..super high numbers of their own employees drawing coveted tags..non residents magically hitting their 10% quota every year with very few apps by non residents in some units
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the entire draw system in ID is a sham!! its fraudulent..super high numbers of their own employees drawing coveted tags..non residents magically hitting their 10% quota every year with very few apps by non residents in some units
it is intriguing how more times than not the 10% nr limit is met... I wont complain tho... :chuckle:
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the entire draw system in ID is a sham!! its fraudulent..super high numbers of their own employees drawing coveted tags..non residents magically hitting their 10% quota every year with very few apps by non residents in some units
Two weeks ago I would have disagreed sharply with you...today...not so much. I am usually a big supporter of IDFG and their decisions...they screwed this one up so bad that even the folks who normally trust them have lost faith. It really does make me wonder what other shady things they have allowed! This is why they need to fire Virgil and maybe a couple of his deputies...a small step towards restoring faith in that agency.
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This will be my first year hunting Idaho...I'm excited about the overall quality of the deer I'll be hunting OTC and they gave me a bonus elk tag as well. I find it tough to complain at this point :chuckle:
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I need some info on unit 45...my 10 year old nephew drew it so don't be holding out!
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I need some info on unit 45...my 10 year old nephew drew it so don't be holding out!
Wow, rifle?
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Treble's are buried....
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Anyone know if they did the re draw
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here is an example a draw unit... 60 tags available 700 apps 670-680 apps are resident and poof the 20 or so non residents draw their 10% every year!!! :rolleyes: those odds of pulling those tags is insane year after year
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here is an example a draw unit... 60 tags available 700 apps 670-680 apps are resident and poof the 20 or so non residents draw their 10% every year!!! :rolleyes: those odds of pulling those tags is insane year after year
I think jj has drawn something like 6 years in a row now. :o
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Ok then. JJ drew the deer tag that I put in for but I didn't draw it and I'm a NR, what gives?
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Idaho re-draw results are now posted.