Post by: idahohuntr on June 29, 2014, 12:07:31 PM
I wonder what they are thinking of doing?? If you drew a good tag I would buy it now...make it harder for them to take your tag away :chuckle: :chuckle:
Seriously though, the only thing I can think is they would disqualify tags from any 10/11 year old that drew (or their group) and re-issue those tags randomly to the remaining, eligible applicants in the pool.
I can see the conundrum, but I don't think they should have allowed the ineligible applicants to remain in the first place...rules are rules and it is very unfair to all of the 10/11 year olds whose parents played by the rules and did not include them in the draw.
Post by: pd on June 29, 2014, 03:32:25 PM
Although I am affected by this (whatever IDFG does, it can't get any worse for me ;)), I really respect their proactive stance on this. I have always felt that F&G in Idaho is very responsive to the hunting and fishing community.
Post by: huntnnw on June 29, 2014, 11:04:19 PM
Post by: idaho guy on June 30, 2014, 12:18:08 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on June 30, 2014, 03:28:41 PM
ID is going to post on there website today what they are going to do about this.
I was told that there is a group of people that have contacted ID about a class action lawsuit if they allow the original draw results to be final.
Post by: idahohuntr on June 30, 2014, 03:57:00 PM
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/viewNewsRelease.cfm?newsID=7197 (http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/media/viewNewsRelease.cfm?newsID=7197)I suspect legal counsel had advised them this would not hold up under challenge. You can't just choose to ignore state law because it would be inconvenient and upset folks.
ID is going to post on there website today what they are going to do about this.
I was told that there is a group of people that have contacted ID about a class action lawsuit if they allow the original draw results to be final.
Have you heard any rumblings about what the proposed solution might entail?
Post by: Bigshooter on June 30, 2014, 04:04:14 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on June 30, 2014, 04:08:14 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on June 30, 2014, 04:14:18 PM
http://m.idahostatejournal.com/members/outcry-causes-fish-and-game-to-rethink-letting-children-younger/article_6a230c8c-ff6d-11e3-a342-001a4bcf887a.html?mode=jqm (http://m.idahostatejournal.com/members/outcry-causes-fish-and-game-to-rethink-letting-children-younger/article_6a230c8c-ff6d-11e3-a342-001a4bcf887a.html?mode=jqm)
Post by: idahohuntr on June 30, 2014, 04:55:58 PM
I have not heard what the solution will be. But I was told that the group that is considering the lawsuit wants all ineligible applications to be withdrawn and for a new draw to take place.A complete re-draw...i.e., rescinding tags from all applicants...or just re-drawing the tags from ineligible winners?
Post by: Bigshooter on June 30, 2014, 05:09:25 PM
Post by: greenhead_killer on June 30, 2014, 05:22:40 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on June 30, 2014, 06:15:59 PM
Complete redraw is how I understood it. IDFG will have an announcement tomorrow it sounds like.Wow...that is what I am starting to hear from others as well...the contention is the the draw is invalid and an entirely new one is required. This will really irk the guys who drew tough tags that don't get them in the new draw!!! Didn't Washington have to do this several years ago?
This must be why I haven't gotten my money back. Well, round two here we come. Hope for better odds...There are no refunds in the Deer/Elk/Antelope draws...only the OIL species tag refunds. Your application fee and hunting lic. are non-refundable and you don't have to buy a tag to put in for D/E/A in Idaho.
Post by: bobcat on June 30, 2014, 06:25:08 PM
So this situation in Idaho is much different than anything we've ever experienced.
Post by: DIYARCHERYJUNKIE on June 30, 2014, 06:44:22 PM
Post by: matt345 on June 30, 2014, 06:46:17 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on June 30, 2014, 07:26:16 PM
I cant see how they could possibly retract tags that we have already purchased for those of us that were drawn !!!!!
Sounds like that is what is going to happen because the draw should have never happened and will be considered invalid. Not trying to be a jerk it's just what I have been told.
I feel for you. I know if I would have drawn and then told I can't have the tag or I have to return it because of a technical error I would not be happy.
Post by: jjhunter on June 30, 2014, 08:00:10 PM
Post by: matt345 on June 30, 2014, 08:05:03 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on June 30, 2014, 08:51:26 PM
I don't see a redraw. It opens the door for so many more variables to come into play. I could see them retracting the ineligible apps and making any tags drawn available in the second draw, but a complete redraw this far beyond the actual drawing date would be unlikely.I would agree with that train of thought. However, I think you along with a couple others would have different responses if you didn't draw. :chuckle: Anyhow, going to be very interesting come tomorrow........
Post by: autodink13 on June 30, 2014, 09:00:14 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on June 30, 2014, 09:04:48 PM
Post by: jjhunter on June 30, 2014, 09:06:31 PM
I don't see a redraw. It opens the door for so many more variables to come into play. I could see them retracting the ineligible apps and making any tags drawn available in the second draw, but a complete redraw this far beyond the actual drawing date would be unlikely.I would agree with that train of thought. However, I think you along with a couple others would have different responses if you didn't draw. :chuckle: Anyhow, going to be very interesting come tomorrow........
I wouldn't mind a redraw, give me a chance to double up deer and elk tags. Gotta catch up after having to take last year off. Ha ha ha
Post by: MtnMuley on June 30, 2014, 09:11:39 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on June 30, 2014, 09:12:48 PM
:yeah:I cant see how they could possibly retract tags that we have already purchased for those of us that were drawn !!!!!
Sounds like that is what is going to happen because the draw should have never happened and will be considered invalid. Not trying to be a jerk it's just what I have been told.
I feel for you. I know if I would have drawn and then told I can't have the tag or I have to return it because of a technical error I would not be happy.
Exactly...any hunt where even a single ineligible applicant was arbitrarily included could be deemed as having invalid results...even if no 10 year olds were drawn...requiring a re-draw of those specific hunts...given there were ~3500 ineligible applicants I would guess a good chunk of all the deer and elk hunts, especially the popular/high demand ones could be affected. :dunno:
As far as rescinding tags...a letter would be sent to all tag holders who do not re-draw and your tag would no longer be valid...refund or exchange for a general tag would be your options I suspect. That is the least of IDFG's problems at this point. I did not draw anything and I agree that if they invalidate the results and take tags away from people who drew that would suck...and is very unfair to folks that were eligible and drew. But as we all now when we are talking legal action and lawsuits...fair and legal are 2 very, very different things.
If I was a holding a really good tag I would be on pins and needles right now...but I've already accepted my loss and planned accordingly so a re-draw would just muck up all of my planning were I to draw something with whatever they end up doing :yike:
No matter what, IDFG is going to have a whole bunch of po'd people...so I presume their decision will be based entirely on what is legally defensible. And it sounds like Bigshooter has some good info...if I remember correctly you were the one who mentioned draw results being a little delayed because of this 9/10 yo stuff before the initial results were even posted?
Post by: jjhunter on June 30, 2014, 09:16:14 PM
From what I have heard today. I will be very surprised if there is not a redraw. The lawsuit that is being present to ID is that the draw should have never taken place because of ineligible applications thus making the entire draw results invalid.
Everybody has to have a dream. Ha ha.
Unfortunately, even a redraw does not fix the issue. This is why it will not happen. It's a lose-lose anyway you slice it.
Post by: Bigshooter on June 30, 2014, 09:26:29 PM
From what I have heard today. I will be very surprised if there is not a redraw. The lawsuit that is being present to ID is that the draw should have never taken place because of ineligible applications thus making the entire draw results invalid.
Everybody has to have a dream. Ha ha.
Unfortunately, even a redraw does not fix the issue. This is why it will not happen. It's a lose-lose anyway you slice it.
It does not fix the issue but it will keep ID out out of court if there is a redraw. Laws were broken and there is a group of people willing to sue because the laws were not followed. That is why I think there will be a redraw at this point. I do agree that it is a lose-lose.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on June 30, 2014, 09:34:47 PM
Post by: jjhunter on June 30, 2014, 09:37:14 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on June 30, 2014, 09:38:19 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on June 30, 2014, 09:49:13 PM
hey bigshooter, would this apply to the oils? I sure hope not.
No. But I wonder why this didn't happen in the OIL draw? Or if it did and nothing was said.
Post by: Bigshooter on June 30, 2014, 09:57:39 PM
:yeah:I cant see how they could possibly retract tags that we have already purchased for those of us that were drawn !!!!!
Sounds like that is what is going to happen because the draw should have never happened and will be considered invalid. Not trying to be a jerk it's just what I have been told.
I feel for you. I know if I would have drawn and then told I can't have the tag or I have to return it because of a technical error I would not be happy.
Exactly...any hunt where even a single ineligible applicant was arbitrarily included could be deemed as having invalid results...even if no 10 year olds were drawn...requiring a re-draw of those specific hunts...given there were ~3500 ineligible applicants I would guess a good chunk of all the deer and elk hunts, especially the popular/high demand ones could be affected. :dunno:
As far as rescinding tags...a letter would be sent to all tag holders who do not re-draw and your tag would no longer be valid...refund or exchange for a general tag would be your options I suspect. That is the least of IDFG's problems at this point. I did not draw anything and I agree that if they invalidate the results and take tags away from people who drew that would suck...and is very unfair to folks that were eligible and drew. But as we all now when we are talking legal action and lawsuits...fair and legal are 2 very, very different things.
If I was a holding a really good tag I would be on pins and needles right now...but I've already accepted my loss and planned accordingly so a re-draw would just muck up all of my planning were I to draw something with whatever they end up doing :yike:
No matter what, IDFG is going to have a whole bunch of po'd people...so I presume their decision will be based entirely on what is legally defensible. And it sounds like Bigshooter has some good info...if I remember correctly you were the one who mentioned draw results being a little delayed because of this 9/10 yo stuff before the initial results were even posted?
I may have posted it but I think someone posted it before I did. And what I was told then is that they were removing all of the ineligible applications. So I don't know what happened and why they went ahead and included them in the draw.
Post by: hogsniper on June 30, 2014, 09:58:54 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on June 30, 2014, 10:01:11 PM
Somebody has to feel like an Ass for making such a big stink about this. I mean its about a deadline of a couple weeks and taking tags away from kids. Sure wish I had a tag but would rather see a kid shoot a buck/bull in the end. I understand a rule is a rule but come on this really seems pretty ridiculous!
1,000 kids didn't follow the rules and may have drawn a tag. 4,000 kids did follow the rules and none of them drew a tag.
Post by: huntnnw on June 30, 2014, 10:07:37 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on June 30, 2014, 10:19:49 PM
Effective July 1, 2014 – the minimum age to hunt big game
was lowered from 12 to 10. A 9-year old may buy a license to
apply for a controlled hunt tag, but he or she must be 10 years
old at the time of the hunt.
Since this law does not take effect until July 1, 2014, hunters
who are 10 cannot apply for big game controlled hunts in the
first controlled hunt application periods (April-June), but a
9-year old who will turn 10 during the season can apply in the
second application period in August.
I'm becoming more convinced we are going to have a re-draw :bash: Voluntary or court-ordered I am uncertain...IDFG's lawyers are huddled with their PR folks right now I imagine. :chuckle:
Post by: huntnnw on June 30, 2014, 10:38:36 PM
Post by: time2hunt on July 01, 2014, 10:25:45 AM
Post by: pd on July 01, 2014, 10:56:18 AM
Post by: pd on July 01, 2014, 10:58:00 AM
Post by: jjhunter on July 01, 2014, 11:00:06 AM
Probably the best that they could do given the circumstances.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 01, 2014, 11:36:46 AM
No redraw. Kids get to keep their tags, 363 drawn tags added back to the pool for 12 y/o and above.so they're giving out extra tags?
Probably the best that they could do given the circumstances.
Post by: jjhunter on July 01, 2014, 11:48:26 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on July 01, 2014, 11:50:38 AM
That is the way that I read it?Where did you read this?
Post by: jjhunter on July 01, 2014, 12:00:51 PM
Post by: HUNT on July 01, 2014, 12:17:49 PM
Post by: jjhunter on July 01, 2014, 12:29:25 PM
Wonder if non residents will get a chance at any of the 363 tags that are added back??? Wonder how many of the original 363 tags were given to nonresident 9-11 year olds.
Probably depends on whether or not the non-resident quota was met on the initial drawing?
Post by: HUNT on July 01, 2014, 12:39:26 PM
Post by: jjhunter on July 01, 2014, 12:56:25 PM
Post by: pd on July 01, 2014, 12:56:52 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on July 01, 2014, 02:16:24 PM
Post by: Mr Mykiss on July 02, 2014, 08:42:22 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 02, 2014, 10:37:51 AM
I guess we can all pick a law in idaho to ignore now... there own department set a precedent of breaking them...
I guess the free entry into the second draw for the kids who followed the rules is a small step in the right direction...
Post by: jjhunter on July 02, 2014, 11:22:13 AM
I truly believe that the F&G were operating under the best of intentions from a customer service perspective. Unfortunately, in an attempt to appease all parties, the commissioner placed most of the burden on the herds with issuing extra tags.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on July 02, 2014, 11:25:58 AM
Post by: HUNT on July 02, 2014, 11:39:04 AM
My 19 year old drew a deer tag. But also is in for elk and antelope tags.
So I'm curious how they will handle the resident/nonresident issue in the re-draw. And I wonder if 9-11 year old non-residents drew the nonresident quota for their hunts???
Be interesting to see how forthcoming they are with information and how it affects everyone know that everyone's situation is a bit different.
Post by: idahohuntr on July 02, 2014, 11:56:52 AM
I do believe there should be some firings/resignations over this cluster. The allocation of scarce public resources should not be predicated on haphazard and arbitrary decision making. This casts doubt on the legitimacy of future draws, makes the agency look really stupid, and unnecessarily angers large numbers of sportsmen.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 02, 2014, 01:31:42 PM
No law was broken - a policy, but not a law.your correct... the whole thing is a grease fire. According to the game laws pamphlet the apps should have been disallowed. I would be very upset if I had a child who I didn't enter into the draw because of the book... come to find out they could have been entered. I also agree that the wildlife and management of wildlife should take the brunt of someone's screw up.
I truly believe that the F&G were operating under the best of intentions from a customer service perspective. Unfortunately, in an attempt to appease all parties, the commissioner placed most of the burden on the herds with issuing extra tags.
Post by: idahohuntr on July 02, 2014, 01:57:54 PM
I don't. It is a huge disservice to the hundreds of thousands of sportsmen who play by the rules. This was a political move where the director thought the backlash from keeping the rules in place would cause too much negative press. Despite strong opposition from his staff he chose this path. He should be fired...and I'm sure the Commissioners will discuss this next week. He seriously damaged the agencies reputation and credibility. I can't imagine any sportsmen are happy with how any of this was handled.
I truly believe that the F&G were operating under the best of intentions from a customer service perspective.
Post by: pd on July 02, 2014, 02:10:29 PM
I don't know if I can agree with the "tar & feather" brigade. I am not carrying water for the Director, but I believe his explanation and apology to be satisfactory. He admits that his staff and he--personally--made some mistakes, and he takes responsibility for these errors. What else could you ask him to do?
If everybody fell on a sword every time there was a mistake, we would live in a very lonely world.
Post by: bobcat on July 02, 2014, 02:29:54 PM
Post by: time2hunt on July 02, 2014, 04:10:27 PM
Post by: huntnphool on July 02, 2014, 04:12:21 PM
No law was broken - a policy, but not a law.+1, the only ones suffering this brain fart are the herds.
I truly believe that the F&G were operating under the best of intentions from a customer service perspective. Unfortunately, in an attempt to appease all parties, the commissioner placed most of the burden on the herds with issuing extra tags.
Post by: time2hunt on July 02, 2014, 04:31:47 PM
Post by: timberhunter on July 02, 2014, 05:23:29 PM
Post by: huntnnw on July 02, 2014, 10:12:06 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 03, 2014, 08:36:05 AM
the entire draw system in ID is a sham!! its fraudulent..super high numbers of their own employees drawing coveted tags..non residents magically hitting their 10% quota every year with very few apps by non residents in some unitsit is intriguing how more times than not the 10% nr limit is met... I wont complain tho... :chuckle:
Post by: idahohuntr on July 03, 2014, 08:45:05 AM
the entire draw system in ID is a sham!! its fraudulent..super high numbers of their own employees drawing coveted tags..non residents magically hitting their 10% quota every year with very few apps by non residents in some unitsTwo weeks ago I would have disagreed sharply with you...today...not so much. I am usually a big supporter of IDFG and their decisions...they screwed this one up so bad that even the folks who normally trust them have lost faith. It really does make me wonder what other shady things they have allowed! This is why they need to fire Virgil and maybe a couple of his deputies...a small step towards restoring faith in that agency.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on July 03, 2014, 11:06:10 AM
Post by: hogsniper on July 03, 2014, 04:57:21 PM
Post by: huntnphool on July 03, 2014, 05:22:38 PM
I need some info on unit 45...my 10 year old nephew drew it so don't be holding out!Wow, rifle?
Post by: MtnMuley on July 03, 2014, 06:09:26 PM
Post by: time2hunt on July 07, 2014, 08:28:18 AM
Post by: huntnnw on July 07, 2014, 09:54:48 PM
Post by: huntnphool on July 07, 2014, 10:43:57 PM
here is an example a draw unit... 60 tags available 700 apps 670-680 apps are resident and poof the 20 or so non residents draw their 10% every year!!! :rolleyes: those odds of pulling those tags is insane year after year
I think jj has drawn something like 6 years in a row now. :o
Post by: Mr Mykiss on July 08, 2014, 09:02:56 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on July 09, 2014, 04:41:46 PM