Hunting Washington Forum
Big Game Hunting => Deer Hunting => Topic started by: Dman on September 05, 2007, 09:43:24 AM
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I asked the question of WDFW about the decline in recent years of the Skoomumchuck unit blacktail. Not good news! No cause has yet been identified for the decline, but this year is expected to be the same as last as far as harvest. I'm wondering if many of the deer used to range down into the Weyerhaeuser land's sold in the Yelm and Mineral areas totaling several thousand acres for new housing. If that's the case, we'll never see the 'glory days' again.
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Maybe hair loss has had an affect?
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I think poaching is more of an issue around mineral lots of hard up folks in that neck of the woods :dunno:
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Hair slip has not been significantly noticed, according to the bio. I think poaching can be an issue outside of Vail proper, but within the mainlines I think it's minimal to nil. My gut tells me it's both habitat loss and overharvest just prior to the habitat loss, as well as 3 dry summers in a row.
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I agree with the habitat loss and over harvest. The logging, though still ongoing, is less than what it used to be and the cuts are growing into stands of timber therefore less feed. Building is a huge issue in this area as well.
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Are we talking population decline or harvest decline?
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This is my theory on the last couple dry summers I hunted the Skook (excluding this summer). Doe's that are fawning in late spring have lower fawn survival rates when water is scarce and it forces them and their offspring to travel greater distances through coyote country in search of water.
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Are we talking population decline or harvest decline?
Both since 2004.
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I agree with the summer theory. As far as the habitat I don't see much of a change in the harvest of the Vail Tree Farm. The mixed age of the timber seems to me to be fairly consistant. Yes there are years that have a higher harvest then others, but it looks fairly even. I think with a 2 point restriction (spikes can be taken by youth or antlerless permit) the Skook could be a premier blacktail unit.
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A two point rule would be great for the Skook, I don't shoot spike's anyways. If the trend continues another year or so, it may very well happen.
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Here's an article from last season.
http://www.theolympian.com/103/story/47042.html
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I would alos be in favor of at least a 2-point min restriction on that unit. I used to live (when I lived with my parents) about 10 minutes from the valley, and about 15 minutes from the E-130 gate. The amount of deer being seen has been declining for a number of years. I wish Weyerhauser would burn their clearcuts up there instead of leaving them dead with no food in them.
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2 point restriction would be the way to go,don't know if it will ever happen though. My property borders Vail, opening morning the headlights come over in a solid stream. what are they shootin'? Spikes. Let the geezers and youth kill spikes, everyone else forked horn or better.
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Some timber company's use herbicides that kill allot of foliage that the deer depend on for food.A 2-point min restriction would definitely be worth a try tho.
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I saw a study on the use of herbicides done by DNR/ WDFW. Hancock came out as the worst, which I already knew from hiking the Snoqualmie, they definitely are using too heavy a mix from what I've seen with my own eyes (and smelled!). I've not noticed herbicede's at all in Vail, I think that they are so aggressive about planting/ burning the fresh cuts, that weeds don't really take hold as much. I know from being a WSDA licensed herbicides consultant for nearly ten years that many of the regulations have been relaxed too much in recent years. You don't want to know what is being sprayed around these days!!
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I'd be all for the 2 point min. also. I wish they would do that in most of the blacktail range. How about 3 point min?
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I didn't mention it cause I figured I would have got thrown under the bus. Anymore I don't shoot anything but 3 or 4 points, spikes and forks for geezers and youths, I'd go for that.
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I'm the same way, I wont shoot a blackie unless it is 3pt or better. I would also like to see the point restrictions raised to 2 or 3 pt in certain units. Coming from someone who lives at the foot of Vail, I think a lot of the problem in the Shookumchuck is due to overharvest of immature bucks & does and the exploding number of predators. I shoot anywhere from 20-40 coyotes a year in the Skook and am not even making a dent in the population. I have seen fawn mortality rates rise dramatically over the past few years. I have one of my pastures planted in several types of clover for the deer to munch on and we are only seeing 3-5 fawns a season instead of the 8-10 that we use to. Also, check out the pics, and talk to Chauncey (Buzz) at the Vail check station and see how many 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old bucks and does are coming through and the condition that they are in. It makes me sick to see what so called "hunters" are doing to these critters. We saw one spike (less than 1 1/2" tall) that was shot 7 times with a .7mm mag, mostly in the ass and guts. >:( There was about 10 lbs of meat left on the poor little guy. I have said for years to the guys at the the check atation that they need to put a 3 pt+ restriction on Vail, eliminate doe permits and make it a limited access draw area . It has great potential to be a trophy machine again if just managed right.
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I agree, I've harvested one nice 3x4 in Vail and passed on a 4" spike. I saw just last season a guy shoot at a spike nine times with a rest!?!
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The problem with not harvesting 2 points is there are alot of mature 2 points that will always be 2 points.If most of the 3's and 4's are taken guess which ones are left to do the breeding.That's how certain areas end up only producing mature 2 points.I think after a few decades this happens.
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Right on Polarbear, I live on the south side of Vail on the North Fork. I make it a point to bait coyotes everey year, smoke 15-20 a year as well. I took a guy from work bowhunting in there the first Sunday of archery, 45 deer, only one buck, a spike. There were also VERY few fawns. Of course the longtails don't help either, the nieghber had 2 sitting in the edge of his yard last year, killed one. When I logged in Vail about 12 years ago it always amazed me how many spikes got smoked on the opener. Vail does have great potential to be a trophy area, sad to say we will never see it though. With the cost of feul,tags,etc, its a pretty lame excuse for these older hunters to kill spikes for the meat. Just my 2 cents
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Anyone know what the harvest statistics where last season for the
Shookumchuck, as well as other areas. How many spikes, 2pt, 3pt etc.? I only see the total harvest on the wdfw site.
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They generally don't show the age class, though if you sift through articles of the "Olympian" online, you may find a Vail article on what was checked in at the check station last year. I hunted it and I did see a nice 4pt. shot on the hill next to me, but other than that all spikes and two points.
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Lot's of doe tag's and lot's of cougar. i use to call alot around the dam. lot's of cougar 's there. Rick
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bearmanric you are right about the cougar's, I saw four there today. Yes FOUR!!! It looked like a female with three grown kittens. They were almost as big as her.
What is everyones experience with the season and deer population this year? I have seen some nice bucks posted on this site, congrats to you.
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I was also up near the dam and found a big kitty had ran everything out of there.
Need to harvest the doe numbers a little and raise the pt minimum. I think that would help. But with all the predators it would probably be a crapshoot to the does.
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I called in 2 different 2x2 bucks this morning in the fog. One looked like he would easily go over 200 pounds. They came in mad and lonely! So, there are at least 2 2x2 bucks in skookumchuck!
Not what I was looking for but neat to have them sneak in bristled up and looking for a fight!!
had some cows mewing and one bugle too!
so, the skook is still worth hunting to me! ;)
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Not what I was looking for but neat to have them sneak in bristled up and looking for a fight!!
What were ya looking for?
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had some cows mewing and one bugle too!
A cow bugled? jk :chuckle:
I got my 2-point up at vail this year. Saw some spikes that barely made the legal requirements to be a buck cruising around in the back of trucks. Saw one spike on top of a Yukon at 9am and they were still driving aorund with it on top at 7pm. That was the day it was 65-70*. Why don't some people care for their game?
I would love to see it go to 2-point minimum, and wouldn't be heartbroken if they upped it to 3-point min.
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Saw one spike on top of a Yukon at 9am and they were still driving aorund with it on top at 7pm. That was the day it was 65-70*. Why don't some people care for their game?
Some people don't get it.
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I went up there this morning didn't see to many (6) but I did see a MONSTER at a jack fir edge. It was 598 according to the rangefinder, tried to move in for a shot and never saw him again.
Typical day, everyone sits on a cut until about 8:30 then its a road hunting circle track :bash:
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I would love to see it go to 2-point minimum, and wouldn't be heartbroken if they upped it to 3-point min.
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The state has discussed this with Weyerhauser and thats as far as it will go. Weyerhauser would be happy if there wasn't a single wild animal left on their property. They want as many deer out of there as possible.
The thing with Vail is a lot of those spikes aren't going to get much more than what they are, they have so many deer in there that breeding age spikes are contributing to the gene pool. They age the spikes and they aren't yearlings in most cases. They would do better to have a year of spike only do away with the "any" deer tag and call them antlerless tags.
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spikes breed in all areas. one buck, dominant or not, breeds with 10-12 does max. Spikes sneak in there and take what they can get and usuallly it turns out to be quite a lot. This happens all the time in whitetail country. Bring the doe numbers down and build a healthier buck to doe ratio and you will have bigger bucks. They will become dominant and gigundous with the right conservation.
