Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 01, 2014, 07:27:44 AM
if first tried DRT heads and i was having trouble with the heads in the 3 pack shooting differently that the others, one would dip and dive and tail whip ( no matter what arrow it was on) and the other would shoot fine on the same arrows as the previous head.
then i went and got some Shuttle Ts because it seems a lot of people like them, we i cant get them to shoot straight either. they seem to group better way low and right of the field points but they are flying like crap, tail whipping all over the place?
what am i doing wrong? please help!! im no bow tech..
Post by: dreamunelk on August 01, 2014, 07:32:25 AM
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 01, 2014, 07:41:29 AM
Post by: lamrith on August 01, 2014, 07:53:17 AM
Beyond that you are looking at maybe going in and having you and the bow paper tuned.
Post by: irishevox on August 01, 2014, 07:59:20 AM
First make sure you have the correct spine for your arrows. Then I would take it to a pro shop to make sure everything is in tune. Assuming form is correct something is out of whack.
Agreed. Also i would check the grain. what grain field tips are you using VS the broad head grain. They should be the same
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 01, 2014, 08:05:06 AM
First make sure you have the correct spine for your arrows. Then I would take it to a pro shop to make sure everything is in tune. Assuming form is correct something is out of whack.
Agreed. Also i would check the grain. what grain field tips are you using VS the broad head grain. They should be the same
both 100gr
Post by: sirfunkeybut on August 01, 2014, 08:08:31 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 01, 2014, 08:13:05 AM
Already mentioned/Line up the blades with the veins - #2 reasons for me
Already mentioned/correct spine
Make sure your cams are timed correctly
Other things to check:
Have you changed anything on your bow lately, like the serving, nocks, arrow rest, your release, quiver, etc.?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 01, 2014, 08:37:11 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 01, 2014, 08:40:03 AM
Post by: lamrith on August 01, 2014, 08:52:26 AM
Lining up blades with vanes will have no impqct whatsoever on flight... unless the head just happens to spin true with it lined up. Can you cut the vanes off of a field tip arrow and shoot a group at 15-20 yards with 3 field tips and the field tip with vames cut off? Then post a pic. If the bare shaft groups with fletched arrows you should be good. If not some tuning is needed.
I would not believed the lining up myself if it had not worked for me personally but it did. From 4"@20yards to touching just by lining them up. Maybe it masks an underlying problem, but it can help.
Great info on the bareshaft tuning!
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 01, 2014, 09:04:36 AM
now that i think about it i used to shoot xt hunters 7595 a couple years ago and was told i was under spine. for some reason when i bought these arrows i got the pros and the expeditions backwards.
could this be the issue? i just did some reading just now and there wasnt alot of great things being said about these arrows :dunno:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 01, 2014, 09:10:30 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 01, 2014, 09:19:13 AM
Lining up blades with vanes will have no impqct whatsoever on flight... unless the head just happens to spin true with it lined up. Can you cut the vanes off of a field tip arrow and shoot a group at 15-20 yards with 3 field tips and the field tip with vames cut off? Then post a pic. If the bare shaft groups with fletched arrows you should be good. If not some tuning is needed.
I have absolutely improved grouping on broadheads by aligning the blades with the fletches. :dunno:
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 01, 2014, 09:24:04 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 01, 2014, 09:25:09 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 01, 2014, 09:28:19 AM
there is no reason at all it would affect flight in any way as long as the broadhead spins straight. How would you line up a 2 or 4 blade head?Lining up blades with vanes will have no impqct whatsoever on flight... unless the head just happens to spin true with it lined up. Can you cut the vanes off of a field tip arrow and shoot a group at 15-20 yards with 3 field tips and the field tip with vames cut off? Then post a pic. If the bare shaft groups with fletched arrows you should be good. If not some tuning is needed.
I have absolutely improved grouping on broadheads by aligning the blades with the fletches. :dunno:
Post by: lamrith on August 01, 2014, 09:47:54 AM
3blade bh with 3vane arrow, line them up. It helps do to air currents off the bh in same pattern as the vanes but off plane causing uneven flow over the vanes.there is no reason at all it would affect flight in any way as long as the broadhead spins straight. How would you line up a 2 or 4 blade head?Lining up blades with vanes will have no impqct whatsoever on flight... unless the head just happens to spin true with it lined up. Can you cut the vanes off of a field tip arrow and shoot a group at 15-20 yards with 3 field tips and the field tip with vames cut off? Then post a pic. If the bare shaft groups with fletched arrows you should be good. If not some tuning is needed.
I have absolutely improved grouping on broadheads by aligning the blades with the fletches. :dunno:
It is also easy to just give it a try without cutting vanes off possibly good arrows. There are orings available at pro shops just to allow this sort of alignment while still having bh tight so not move.
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 01, 2014, 09:51:38 AM
Also, are all of your broadheads not flying right or just a couple? If the shafts weren't well cut, then a spin test (as mentioned above) will show it.
so far everyone ive tried
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 01, 2014, 09:55:11 AM
3blade bh with 3vane arrow, line them up. It helps do to air currents off the bh in same pattern as the vanes but off plane causing uneven flow over the vanes.there is no reason at all it would affect flight in any way as long as the broadhead spins straight. How would you line up a 2 or 4 blade head?Lining up blades with vanes will have no impqct whatsoever on flight... unless the head just happens to spin true with it lined up. Can you cut the vanes off of a field tip arrow and shoot a group at 15-20 yards with 3 field tips and the field tip with vames cut off? Then post a pic. If the bare shaft groups with fletched arrows you should be good. If not some tuning is needed.
I have absolutely improved grouping on broadheads by aligning the blades with the fletches. :dunno:
It is also easy to just give it a try without cutting vanes off possibly good arrows. There are orings available at pro shops just to allow this sort of alignment while still having bh tight so not move.
i would need to pick some orings up, the shuttle ts and DRTs didnt come with any so when they tighten up they may or may not line up
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 01, 2014, 09:56:10 AM
Post by: Becky on August 01, 2014, 09:57:29 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 01, 2014, 09:57:50 AM
Post by: hntrspud on August 01, 2014, 09:58:07 AM
there is no reason at all it would affect flight in any way as long as the broadhead spins straight. How would you line up a 2 or 4 blade head?Lining up blades with vanes will have no impqct whatsoever on flight... unless the head just happens to spin true with it lined up. Can you cut the vanes off of a field tip arrow and shoot a group at 15-20 yards with 3 field tips and the field tip with vames cut off? Then post a pic. If the bare shaft groups with fletched arrows you should be good. If not some tuning is needed.
I have absolutely improved grouping on broadheads by aligning the blades with the fletches. :dunno:
I can say that the 4 blade slick tricks shoot like field points if you line them up with the string.
Post by: D-Rock425 on August 01, 2014, 10:02:22 AM
*might be stupid question* but exactly how do you align your broadheads up with your fletchings? or are you all saying you had to refletch your arrows to match where your broadheads sat?I assemble my broadheads on inserts then glue the inserts into the arrow. Align the blades and fletchings before the glue is done setting.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 01, 2014, 10:04:04 AM
Post by: lamrith on August 01, 2014, 10:04:16 AM
Bull-I am not scientist, this is what I was told by multiple people and proved out in my personal setup. Don't want to try it, that is your choice, I am just giving the op a simple cheap option to try.
Post by: Becky on August 01, 2014, 10:04:32 AM
Oh interesting.. because I'm looking at mine and none match up with the fletches.. they screw in tight and that's where they sit. I'll have to tell my pro shop *coughSmossycough* to look into that for me ;)*might be stupid question* but exactly how do you align your broadheads up with your fletchings? or are you all saying you had to refletch your arrows to match where your broadheads sat?I assemble my broadheads on inserts then glue the inserts into the arrow. Align the blades and fletchings before the glue is done setting.
Post by: Becky on August 01, 2014, 10:05:38 AM
SMossy no, I used outings from pro shop to get them aligned.
Bull-I am not scientist, this is what I was told by multiple people and proved out in my personal setup. Don't want to try it, that is your choice, I am just giving the op a simple cheap option to try.
You wrote that at the same time I wrote my question :chuckle: I kept trying to post and it gave me the "new reply warning" but I didn't read it until after.
Post by: D-Rock425 on August 01, 2014, 10:07:21 AM
Post by: Becky on August 01, 2014, 10:33:37 AM
It's not as important as people make it sound. If they're not aligned but fly good that's fine.
I never knew there was a problem until I read it on here.. I should read less :dunno: :chuckle:. They fly exactly where I aim them, I just have to work on the aiming part lol.
Post by: Band on August 01, 2014, 10:42:11 AM
I can say with certainty that any straight and true spinning broadhead will fly like a field tip out of a well tuned bow and arrow set up regardless of blade orientation. :chuckle:I have to agree. My guess is that folks who have lined them up and experienced better flight are in the minority. If broadhead/vane orientation worked for some folks, I'm glad it did, but I suspect there is a different underlying issue that was resolved when you did that, but now you're sold on that being the answer.
Since the arrow is continuously spinning (brought about by offset/helical vanes) I don't see any way that the vanes are hitting the same air current created by the broadhead blades. It just doesn't make sense to me. If anything, the vanes are creating the spin and the air current and driving the (straight) broadhead blades to fight against that spin and air current.
I'd like to hear what Rad has to say about this issue. Where are ya, Rad? :)
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 01, 2014, 10:57:35 AM
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 01, 2014, 11:18:09 AM
Post by: Becky on August 01, 2014, 11:31:44 AM
You better get those arrows fixed up fast smossy girl! Before they realize that they are not to fly straight without being lined up. Hopefully nobody tells my arrows either. :o
:chuckle: they're flying straight (just went and made sure).. I have the same DRT broadheads the OP posted about annnnnd my first hunt is later today and into this weekend! I need to quit reading all this crap because it's makin me freak out and second guess everything :chuckle: I'll be just fine I'll be just fine I'll be just fine...
can someone come tell my arrows to fly straight? please and thank you.
:archery_smiley: !!
Post by: hntrspud on August 01, 2014, 11:34:32 AM
Post by: lamrith on August 01, 2014, 11:35:38 AM
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 01, 2014, 11:36:05 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 01, 2014, 12:07:36 PM
there is no reason at all it would affect flight in any way as long as the broadhead spins straight. How would you line up a 2 or 4 blade head?Lining up blades with vanes will have no impqct whatsoever on flight... unless the head just happens to spin true with it lined up. Can you cut the vanes off of a field tip arrow and shoot a group at 15-20 yards with 3 field tips and the field tip with vames cut off? Then post a pic. If the bare shaft groups with fletched arrows you should be good. If not some tuning is needed.
I have absolutely improved grouping on broadheads by aligning the blades with the fletches. :dunno:
I'm only telling you that lining them up has improved my groupings in the past. I've only been shooting broadheads for 30 years. I understand that you may have more experience and that it's made no difference for you. That's my experience. When I've used Zwickey Eskimos, I lined up the blade with the nock fletch. I've never used 4-blade broadheads, so I don't know the answer to that one.
Post by: lamrith on August 01, 2014, 12:22:41 PM
Post by: sakoshooter on August 01, 2014, 01:17:08 PM
I can say with certainty that any straight and true spinning broadhead will fly like a field tip out of a well tuned bow and arrow set up regardless of blade orientation. :chuckle:
Simple as that Bullblaster.
Otherwise what do guys do that shoot 2 or 4 blade broadheads? Fletch with 2 or 4 vanes?
I've shot a couple dozen different broadheads out to 50yds in my yard numerous times. They don't line up with anything cuz I just screw them in tight and shoot them. Once the bow is tuned, they will shoot well or the difference will be so small that a slight sight adjustment will take care of it.
That said, broadhead orientation WILL make a difference out of an out of tune bow. IE: Rest too low. FP hits bull. 3 & 4 blade roadhead hits low. 2 blade broadhead hits low when installed horizontally. When 2 blade installed vertically it hits same as FP. Why? Because immediately off the bow the horizontal 2 blade and multi blade heads catch air because of the rest being too low causing the broadhead arrow to plane down slightly before the vanes can counter act and stabilize the flight. Too late. Already a couple inches low.
I've even got a bunch of old, large broadheads from the 60's and 70's up to over 200grs that fly just fine out of my tuned bow. When out of tune, these huge heads fly horribly because they catch a lot more air than today's small heads.
Areodynamically speaking, if the blades actually created that much air disturbance that it effected the air flow to the vanes, the vanes couldn't do their job of steering and stabilizing the arrow.
From the OP's original post, it sounds like you might need to fine tune your rest. See if this link helps you out.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1606741 (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1606741)
Post by: lamrith on August 01, 2014, 01:24:45 PM
Sako, thanks for the response, I appreciate the education and information on the how/why. It explains why both side of this debate think they are right. Hopefully we all learn from it.I can say with certainty that any straight and true spinning broadhead will fly like a field tip out of a well tuned bow and arrow set up regardless of blade orientation. :chuckle:
Simple as that Bullblaster.
Otherwise what do guys do that shoot 2 or 4 blade broadheads? Fletch with 2 or 4 vanes?
I've shot a couple dozen different broadheads out to 50yds in my yard numerous times. They don't line up with anything cuz I just screw them in tight and shoot them. Once the bow is tuned, they will shoot well or the difference will be so small that a slight sight adjustment will take care of it.
That said, broadhead orientation WILL make a difference out of an out of tune bow. IE: Rest too low. FP hits bull. 3 & 4 blade roadhead hits low. 2 blade broadhead hits low when installed horizontally. When 2 blade installed vertically it hits same as FP. Why? Because immediately off the bow the horizontal 2 blade and multi blade heads catch air because of the rest being too low causing the broadhead arrow to plane down slightly before the vanes can counter act and stabilize the flight. Too late. Already a couple inches low.
I've even got a bunch of old, large broadheads from the 60's and 70's up to over 200grs that fly just fine out of my tuned bow. When out of tune, these huge heads fly horribly because they catch a lot more air than today's small heads.
Areodynamically speaking, if the blades actually created that much air disturbance that it effected the air flow to the vanes, the vanes couldn't do their job of steering and stabilizing the arrow.
From the OP's original post, it sounds like you might need to fine tune your rest. See if this link helps you out.
http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1606741 (http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1606741)
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 01, 2014, 01:38:31 PM
Post by: snarkybull on August 01, 2014, 02:39:57 PM
It works for me. That's good enough.:yeah:
It helped me a number of years back. Definitely shrunk my groups. Whether it makes a difference on my current setup...I don't care. I am still going to line them up
Post by: RadSav on August 01, 2014, 02:41:58 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on August 01, 2014, 02:44:55 PM
Want to know the secret to broadhead tuning? Here it is...75/15/10Haha! It all makes sense now. :chuckle:
Post by: D-Rock425 on August 01, 2014, 02:48:14 PM
Post by: RadSav on August 01, 2014, 02:51:22 PM
15% of broadhead flight is Fletching (size and rotation)
10% of broadhead flight is FOC (in wind 10% minimum, 12%+ even better)
If rotating your broadheads improves flight...revisit the 75% ;)
If changing broadheads of same weight improves flight...revisit 75% & 15% :o
Broadhead 2 degrees crooked effecting flight...revisit the 75%, 15% & 10% :yike:
So basically, if you are having problems with broadhead tuning look at the bow tuning first second and third before trying to solve a problem by some other means. Almost never has anything to do with the broadhead.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on August 01, 2014, 02:51:38 PM
I don't get itPretty certain none of us get it but I am also certain that we will all get it here very shortly :chuckle:
Post by: RadSav on August 01, 2014, 02:54:59 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on August 01, 2014, 02:55:54 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on August 01, 2014, 02:58:22 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on August 01, 2014, 03:00:33 PM
Post by: lamrith on August 01, 2014, 03:08:10 PM
Rotating broadhead blades with the fletching does nothing more than make sure a poorly tuned bow shoots consistently poor.This and your previous detail... BRAVOOO, BRAAAVVOOOO!
Great info and always teaching, thanks Rad!!
Post by: Karl Blanchard on August 01, 2014, 03:13:23 PM
At least when its archery related :chuckle::chuckle:
Post by: RadSav on August 01, 2014, 03:18:36 PM
:chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on August 01, 2014, 03:24:51 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 01, 2014, 03:35:14 PM
Post by: RadSav on August 01, 2014, 03:44:20 PM
I don't see your caribou :dunno: :chuckle:
Still at Cedar River Taxi. Right now only room enough for the MIL and all my Chips A Ho
Post by: Fullabull on August 01, 2014, 04:16:47 PM
http://www.eastonarchery.com/downloads/tuning-guide (http://www.eastonarchery.com/downloads/tuning-guide)
Post by: sakoshooter on August 01, 2014, 06:00:27 PM
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 01, 2014, 06:12:27 PM
Fullabull, I printed it and will be reading up.
Here is a pic of the stripped arrow test this happened exactly the same 3 times at 20 yds
Post by: RadSav on August 01, 2014, 06:25:59 PM
Trying to get an out of tune bow to shoot broadheads well is about like taking a 6 MOA rifle and trying to get it to shoot like an RBros simply by working up a load. Fact is an RBros rifle is going to shoot nearly everything you put down the tube well. Those 6MOA rifles are often in need of bedding and fine tuning before load development will result in anything at all. That is the nature of a well tuned rifle and that is the nature of a well tuned bow.
As archery hunters we shoot some rather long and heavy bullets. Imagine trying to shoot a long heavy bullet out of a 300 mag with a twist rate of 1 in 20. Regardless of having a high BC and perhaps a boat tail design even your RBros is not going to excel in that regard. Yet so many archery hunters can't figure out why they have inconsistency issues with straight or slight offset vanes when tuning their broadheads. Gyro or centripetal stability from a proper twist rate is the nature of a well tuned rifle and that is the nature of a well tuned arrow.
You find yourself on the rifle range with a 5 mph crosswind. You've got 15" square of steel hanging at 800 yards and you need to chose a round for the task. Your RBros Long Range Hunter in 300RUM is the perfect gun for the task and is tuned perfect with both your pet loads. One of these loads is a 150 grain Nosler Partition with a .387 BC and the other is a 210 grain Accubond LR with a BC of .730. Muzzle velocity be damned just about any sane person is going to choose the high .730 BC bullet. Yet so many of these same folks will sacrifice FOC for a few fps in arrow speed. And then wonder why their broadheads don't group at 80 yards. High BC is the nature of a well tuned long range bullet as FOC is the nature of a well tuned long range arrow.
Neither speed nor barrel twist nor high BC bullets are going to make a difference if we don't first tune the platform that shoots them. And while we do not need an RBros rifle to shoot at the ranges we are archery hunting we still need to have our weapon tuned precisely if we expect any level of consistency with a broadhead tipped arrow. That perfectly tuned bow and properly matched arrow absolutely must come first. Otherwise we are simply trying to work up a pet load for a 6 MOA rifle.
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 01, 2014, 07:13:15 PM
I think there are times when guys understand gun analogies better to help explain archery related issues. This might be one of those times.
Trying to get an out of tune bow to shoot broadheads well is about like taking a 6 MOA rifle and trying to get it to shoot like an RBros simply by working up a load. Fact is an RBros rifle is going to shoot nearly everything you put down the tube well. Those 6MOA rifles are often in need of bedding and fine tuning before load development will result in anything at all. That is the nature of a well tuned rifle and that is the nature of a well tuned bow.
As archery hunters we shoot some rather long and heavy bullets. Imagine trying to shoot a long heavy bullet out of a 300 mag with a twist rate of 1 in 20. Regardless of having a high BC and perhaps a boat tail design even your RBros is not going to excel in that regard. Yet so many archery hunters can't figure out why they have inconsistency issues with straight or slight offset vanes when tuning their broadheads. Gyro or centripetal stability from a proper twist rate is the nature of a well tuned rifle and that is the nature of a well tuned arrow.
You find yourself on the rifle range with a 5 mph crosswind. You've got 15" square of steel hanging at 800 yards and you need to chose a round for the task. Your RBros Long Range Hunter in 300RUM is the perfect gun for the task and is tuned perfect with both your pet loads. One of these loads is a 150 grain Nosler Partition with a .387 BC and the other is a 210 grain Accubond LR with a BC of .730. Muzzle velocity be damned just about any sane person is going to choose the high .730 BC bullet. Yet so many of these same folks will sacrifice FOC for a few fps in arrow speed. And then wonder why their broadheads don't group at 80 yards. High BC is the nature of a well tuned long range bullet as FOC is the nature of a well tuned long range arrow.
Neither speed nor barrel twist nor high BC bullets are going to make a difference if we don't first tune the platform that shoots them. And while we do not need an RBros rifle to shoot at the ranges we are archery hunting we still need to have our weapon tuned precisely if we expect any level of consistency with a broadhead tipped arrow. That perfectly tuned bow and properly matched arrow absolutely must come first. Otherwise we are simply trying to work up a pet load for a 6 MOA rifle.
Ok gotchya so what do I do to get it tuned to a well oiled machine? Take it to a bow shop?
Post by: lamrith on August 01, 2014, 07:14:05 PM
So based on the pictures Rad would you saw that he needs more bow tuning given that the unflectched arrow is so sideways? One would want even the unfletched arrow to be hitting straight into the block I would think?
No offense intended Highcountry, trying to learn myself here...
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 01, 2014, 07:22:14 PM
Post by: Johnb317 on August 01, 2014, 07:43:38 PM
I'd take it back there. Mistakes happen, your d-loop could have slipped, or the new strings could have stretched.
I need to make or buy a broadhead target soon, hopefully not in the same boat.
Good luck
Post by: dreamunelk on August 01, 2014, 07:50:24 PM
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 01, 2014, 08:00:28 PM
Post by: RadSav on August 01, 2014, 08:41:48 PM
So based on the pictures Rad would you saw that he needs more bow tuning given that the unflectched arrow is so sideways? One would want even the unfletched arrow to be hitting straight into the block I would think?
Well it is so hard to tell with bare shaft testing at 20 yards and outdoors. Too many variables to be sure of anything. As a general rule if that arrow was shot at 10 to 15 feet I would either assume the arrow rest is too far right or the spine was too weak.
Bare shaft testing at distances beyond 10 yards is very difficult to read and a safety hazard. I once decided to bare shaft test in a huge sand pit. Figured I was safe as could be. All was great at 10 yards! Then I got some fool idea to bare shaft test a broadhead at 30 yards. A slight wind caught the broadhead and lifted it up the sand bank until it hit more wind at the top lip of the embankment. The arrow then made a complete U-turn and ended up landing behind me :yike: I've never shot a broadhead tipped arrow without fletching since.
Bare shaft testing/tuning can be useful, but best done inside and with field points. Bare shaft testing is most useful when the bow is already tuned well. It is then used as a means to verify proper dynamic spine deflection. As such it is most useful for traditional bows.
Post by: dreamunelk on August 01, 2014, 08:48:30 PM
Is it a new bow? It could be the shop forgot to tell you to shoot it awhile and then bring it back for some more tuning. For me it took a couple of trips when the bow was new. Things need to settle in. Sometimes a bow needs a few trips to get dialed in.
Also note that if you make any adjustments to poundage, check the tune.
I don't know if form would cause some of your problems but, you may want to check that also.
Post by: RadSav on August 01, 2014, 09:06:12 PM
You mentioned it had been professionally tuned.
I'd take it back there. Mistakes happen, your d-loop could have slipped, or the new strings could have stretched.
Is it a new bow? It could be the shop forgot to tell you to shoot it awhile and then bring it back for some more tuning. For me it took a couple of trips when the bow was new. Things need to settle in. Sometimes a bow needs a few trips to get dialed in.
:tup: Professionally tuning a brand new bow is almost a fools gamble. Best to wait until at least 100 arrows are shot and all the creep and molded stresses have been relieved. Then by all means if you know a great bow tech have them do 'er up! However, even then most shops can only tune the bow about 85-90% on a 20 yard indoor range. Usually need to further fine tune at distance.
Most of my bows are broadhead tuned by chasing field points with broadheads. Starting at 5 yards and working back to 50 yards. Making notes with every incremental step in the process. If you never can get them to meet I then know I need to bare shaft test for dynamic spine (or as another option drop or increase poundage until they meet). But, to do that I need to go back to the place where they were the closest...that is where the notes come into play.
Myself I prefer to shoot a particular arrow spine and brand no matter what bow I am shooting. So I may have a single cam Bear bow that shoots a 340 spine properly at 72# and a Bowtech that shoots that same arrow properly at 62#. Once you find the sweet spot of that arrow try to make record of arrow speed. If you get a new bow or have major work done to your current bow you can always go back to that arrow speed and know you are in the neighborhood for proper spine. And then fine tune again from that starting point.
I currently have five different bows that I enjoy shooting with the same exact arrow. Draw weights very from 64# to 72# and all have a true arrow speed within 5 fps of each other. That is the energy level where that arrow performs it's best and proves flawless broadhead flight regardless of blade configuration or relevance of blade location to the fletching.
Post by: sakoshooter on August 01, 2014, 09:21:32 PM
FP's are very for giving even with a bad flinch or a terribly tuned bow. Broadheads will exagerate every lil thing that is wrong.
You obviously have a tuning problem but trying a stiffer spine shaft or cranking your bow down a little might be worth a try also. At 29" and 67#?, you're pushing the spine of those GT7595's. They're a 340 spine.
Post by: sakoshooter on August 01, 2014, 09:26:39 PM
Anyhow, spine can be an issue and you're close to the top of your limit on with your set up. Especially when it's waaaaaaaaaay out of tune.
Post by: Fullabull on August 01, 2014, 09:29:32 PM
Post by: snarkybull on August 01, 2014, 10:06:34 PM
but dayum, speaking as a mortal dude and a weekend shooter (when I have the time) I am totally ok with a slightly out of tune bow, as long as the broadhead tipped arrow hits where I want it to hit. so if i have to adjust my sight an inch high and 2 to the right at 50 yards when i put broadheads on? yeah, my bow is not tuned perfectly. but i'll kill that mofo.
Post by: RadSav on August 01, 2014, 11:15:06 PM
but dayum, speaking as a mortal dude and a weekend shooter (when I have the time) I am totally ok with a slightly out of tune bow, as long as the broadhead tipped arrow hits where I want it to hit. so if i have to adjust my sight an inch high and 2 to the right at 50 yards when i put broadheads on? yeah, my bow is not tuned perfectly.
If that is all you are off at 50 yards I would consider your bow dang near tuned! That could be nothing more than a slight spine issue and have nothing at all to do with your bow.
I believe the OP was talking about "getting pretty spastic flight" and the "tail whipping" quite a bit. I think that is quite a bit different than 1" high and 2" right at 50 yards. Most of the guys I've hunted with in the past wouldn't even notice if their broadheads shot that much off at 50 yards. Heck, I've had years when I wouldn't have noticed either :chuckle:
As Larry Potterfield would say, "That looks pretty good!" ;)
Post by: RG on August 02, 2014, 07:39:33 AM
Post by: 4fletch on August 02, 2014, 11:41:21 AM
Post by: snarkybull on August 02, 2014, 12:36:09 PM
I believe the OP was talking about...
The thread got hijacked!?!? wow :chuckle:
The vanes in those pics look straight. not even offset. have we covered this point yet before the hijacking of the hijacked thread?
Post by: RadSav on August 02, 2014, 01:44:20 PM
Fletching was covered indirectly, but you make a good point! IMO there is not nearly enough attention given to offset and helical in most broadhead flight threads. Especially when dealing with longer range broadhead flight as was first mentioned by the OP. A good helical or heavy offset can reduce the effect a slight weakness of spine can have on flight. It also helps a great deal if FOC is in a marginal zone. And in true long range shooting it reduces the instability during energy transition at the apex of the parabolic curve.
I understand the need for straight or only slight offset on mass produced, machine fletched arrows. But I am always shocked when pro-shops fletch in a similar manner. Pro-shop or custom fletched arrows should be a noticeable step above machine fletched arrows IMO. That's why a customer pays the additional money for those arrows. Sure a guy can choose his colors, but it takes no more effort to fletch a better arrow than it does to fletch a minimal offset arrow once you are in a manual mode of operation. I personally only own one single straight clamp. And that clamp is used for cleaning Flex-Fletch vanes. I've never fletched a single arrow with it!
Post by: snarkybull on August 02, 2014, 03:06:22 PM
and then we'll talk tuning til your head explodes :chuckle:
Post by: RadSav on August 02, 2014, 04:05:55 PM
Curiosity was killing this cat! So I had to download the picture into my CAD program. Looks like there is a 1.5 degree offset :chuckle:
Post by: snarkybull on August 02, 2014, 04:27:40 PM
It was really hard to have certainty from those pics, but I still could have waited for the OP to chime in.
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 02, 2014, 05:17:42 PM
Post by: Johnb317 on August 02, 2014, 05:57:42 PM
Post by: snarkybull on August 02, 2014, 10:22:44 PM
So, moving forward, I would personally advise one of these http://www.eders.com/product.php?productid=166871&gclid=CKyAuKeo9r8CFQGMaQodbLUAiw (http://www.eders.com/product.php?productid=166871&gclid=CKyAuKeo9r8CFQGMaQodbLUAiw) along with some of these http://www.eders.com/products/1-nap-quik-spin-st-vanes-bone-collector-vanes-combo-pack.html (http://www.eders.com/products/1-nap-quik-spin-st-vanes-bone-collector-vanes-combo-pack.html) and something along these lines http://www.eders.com/products/aaecavalier-fastset-gel-nock-and-vane-adhesive.html (http://www.eders.com/products/aaecavalier-fastset-gel-nock-and-vane-adhesive.html)
you will save money in the long run by buying bare shafts and by not paying somebody to fletch your arrows for you. And the 6 degrees of helical will make your broadhead tipped arrows spin faster and therefore be more accurate with better grouping, especially noticeable at longer distances.
Post by: lamrith on August 03, 2014, 07:16:27 AM
you will save money in the long run by buying bare shafts and by not paying somebody to fletch your arrows for you. And the 6 degrees of helical will make your broadhead tipped arrows spin faster and therefore be more accurate with better grouping, especially noticeable at longer distances.6deg? Do you mean 3deg? The EZ fletch I have not heard of offering a 6, only the normal and the RH 3deg helical. Depending on his rest type I have heard it is not recommended to go past 3* if using a WB rest.
THANKS SAID, GET AN EZ FLETCH, they are super easy to use. I went with blazer vanes. Lots of places have them, but I found ebay was the most economical. lower price AND free shipping, only on their ebay stuff though, direct website has shipping...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/131226454252?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&var=430484856892&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/131226454252?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&var=430484856892&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)
Post by: Come Get Some on August 03, 2014, 09:46:36 PM
Try walk back tuning. I just set up a carbon element for my son. 29" 72#, 371 acc w/ 100 Gr shuttle T
5 arrows and I was in the dot at 60 with broadheads. It is fool proof. Forget the paper. It is only a starting point.
Make sure you hit very close to where you aim at 20 yds. Shoot an arrow at a blank bale, WALK BACK to 30 yds, shoot at the first arrow with your 20 yd pin. Since you walked back 10 more yds Your arrow should drop lower than the first shot. If you feel you made a good shot and the arrow shot slightly left move your rest slightly to the right and visa versa for a right impact. I do mean SLIGHTLY move the rest. a 64th of an inch will make a difference. Given that your rest is not set knock high or low. I usually set the rests on all of our bows a skightly knock high. maybe a 1/16" of bubble high. Do all of this with field points. Then progress to broad heads. We all shoot shuttle T broadheads. I screw them on, Do not match the vanes and blades. (4 Fletch For me) shoot them . They all fly well.
Post by: huntnnw on August 03, 2014, 10:10:53 PM
Lining up blades with vanes will have no impqct whatsoever on flight... unless the head just happens to spin true with it lined up. Can you cut the vanes off of a field tip arrow and shoot a group at 15-20 yards with 3 field tips and the field tip with vames cut off? Then post a pic. If the bare shaft groups with fletched arrows you should be good. If not some tuning is needed.
:yeah:
Post by: RadSav on August 03, 2014, 10:11:33 PM
If the arrow spine is correct, you definately have a tuning issue. Simple to fix.
Try walk back tuning. I just set up a carbon element for my son. 29" 72#, 371 acc w/ 100 Gr shuttle T
5 arrows and I was in the dot at 60 with broadheads. It is fool proof. Forget the paper. It is only a starting point.
Make sure you hit very close to where you aim at 20 yds. Shoot an arrow at a blank bale, WALK BACK to 30 yds, shoot at the first arrow with your 20 yd pin. Since you walked back 10 more yds Your arrow should drop lower than the first shot. If you feel you made a good shot and the arrow shot slightly left move your rest slightly to the right and visa versa for a right impact. I do mean SLIGHTLY move the rest. a 64th of an inch will make a difference. Given that your rest is not set knock high or low. I usually set the rests on all of our bows a skightly knock high. maybe a 1/16" of bubble high. Do all of this with field points. Then progress to broad heads. We all shoot shuttle T broadheads. I screw them on, Do not match the vanes and blades. (4 Fletch For me) shoot them . They all fly well.
Good post :tup:
Not sure why walk back tuning doesn't get more attention. It really is easy and near flawless if your bubble is correct! Every time I've thought I found a flaw with it I go back and check all axis adjustments on the sight and find I made the mistake and not the walk back tuning method. I need to start giving it more emphasis in the future. Really glad you chimed in with that one CGS!
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 04, 2014, 03:06:29 PM
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 07, 2014, 07:08:42 AM
Post by: dreamunelk on August 07, 2014, 07:23:24 AM
Stressful having bow issues this close to hunting season.
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on August 07, 2014, 08:42:37 AM
Post by: lamrith on August 07, 2014, 08:47:26 AM
well Cory got me all fixed up! wasn't under spined or anything like that, i believe it was nock point and rest adjustment. although he works so fast they're may have been some other issue i was unaware of. but ya shoots like a dream now im very glad that XXX is within a reasonable drive from me as they always friendly and do great work!I had same issue and Jaris@ sportsmans warehouse got it fixed in minutes then had me take a shot thru paper and was shooting laser straight.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 07, 2014, 10:12:04 AM
Post by: RadSav on August 07, 2014, 01:50:52 PM
Post by: xXx Archery on August 07, 2014, 10:33:05 PM
Post by: Come Get Some on August 08, 2014, 07:03:04 PM
Jim
Post by: xXx Archery on August 10, 2014, 02:11:30 PM
Corey, You have to be able to shoot as good as the bow can shoot or you are wasting your time :chuckle:
Jim
Thanks Jim...lol
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 14, 2014, 06:12:48 AM
Post by: RadSav on August 14, 2014, 10:32:11 PM
So, I took off all of my broadheads and put them on different shafts where the blades and fletches didn't line up. I spin tested them and then shot them. The accuracy is fine. So Rad, you've saved me an extra step for the future. I appreciate your knowledge. How about some knowledge on the location of some prime elk meat on the hoof now?????
Just meat or does it have to have horns too :chuckle:
Post by: pianoman9701 on August 15, 2014, 05:19:35 AM