Post by: Band on August 21, 2014, 01:51:07 PM
Please don't turn this into a thread about .22 being insufficient for self defense. I think most of us can agree on that. :)
Post by: WoodlandShooter on August 21, 2014, 02:04:48 PM
(unloaded of course)
Post by: CP on August 21, 2014, 02:07:43 PM
But on the ammo question here’s the opinion of one expert:
Choose any Federal, Remington, Winchester or CCI copper-plated 37 grain (or lighter) high velocity hollowpoint round. I recommend CCI "Stinger" 32 grain or Remington "Yellow Jacket" 33 grain hollowpoints, as they have been very reliable in my Beretta 21A and Walther TPH pistols and have the highest stopping power ratings.
Ref - http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm)
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on August 21, 2014, 02:48:02 PM
Post by: Bofire on August 21, 2014, 03:32:51 PM
I killed deer, a lot of cows and steers,pigs, sheep, etc. and the solids work better. I actually had a hollow point not penetrate a pig skull at all.
I think even if I had "stingers" I would still lean to the soild, you are already WAY underpowered, go with penetration.
Carl
Post by: hrd2fnd on August 21, 2014, 03:48:17 PM
Post by: jay.sharkbait on August 21, 2014, 03:51:08 PM
Post by: hrd2fnd on August 21, 2014, 04:29:05 PM
Post by: h2ofowlr on August 21, 2014, 04:37:24 PM
Post by: Band on August 21, 2014, 07:40:10 PM
Post by: h2ofowlr on August 21, 2014, 09:20:46 PM
I see those CCI Stingers do have impressive muzzle velocity. Sound like a good round for the scenario I put out there. So now we just need to argue whether hollow points are better than "solids". Let the debate on that point continue. :)
With as soft as .22 lead is in most cases and given size, I haven't seen a lot of difference between the two. I think with the velocity of the stinger and hollow point, it mushrooms them really good and you get great penetration with them. We used to go south of Bigs Junction, Bend area and SE Oregon and burn barrels out killing critters. I been down to Texas and seen what they can do on wild pigs as well. If the first shot doesn't kill the pig, the quick follow up of shots does wonders to them.
As a self defense round, it's all about shot placement with a .22. It will definitely get the job done. I did bump it up and went with a S&W .22 mag as a personal carry for weight. I have a Keltec PMR 30 on order as my next gun. 30 rounds of .22 mag make for a mean personal carry.
Post by: b23 on August 21, 2014, 11:43:35 PM
And you'll be amazed at not only how accurate they are but how fast you can do a 30rnd mag dump with a PMR30. I'm not sure my PMR30 would be my first choice for personal protection but I could think of a lost worse things to grab.
To the OP, assuming the 36gr. HP are quite a bit faster than the 40 grainers, I think I'd have to reach for the 36 hp's first.
Post by: Killmore on August 22, 2014, 08:33:26 AM
Post by: magnanimous_j on August 22, 2014, 08:39:18 AM
I have shot many a Holstein cows with a 22 between the eyes and I can tell you that the stingers or hollow points do not penetrate like a solid.
That’s what I was going to say.
I think farmers use 22lr to slaughter animals all the time. I’d find out what they use and get that.
Post by: huntingfool7 on August 22, 2014, 08:55:22 AM
I’d grab the closest one or both if they were within reach.:yeah:
But on the ammo question here’s the opinion of one expert:
Choose any Federal, Remington, Winchester or CCI copper-plated 37 grain (or lighter) high velocity hollowpoint round. I recommend CCI "Stinger" 32 grain or Remington "Yellow Jacket" 33 grain hollowpoints, as they have been very reliable in my Beretta 21A and Walther TPH pistols and have the highest stopping power ratings.
Ref - http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm (http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm)
CCI Stingers #1 Remington Yellow Jackets a close #2. Lead round noses do very little damage. Shooting soft tissue is not remotely the same as cracking pig/cow skulls.
Post by: WoodlandShooter on August 22, 2014, 09:24:42 AM
I have shot many a Holstein cows with a 22 between the eyes and I can tell you that the stingers or hollow points do not penetrate like a solid.
That’s what I was going to say.
I think farmers use 22lr to slaughter animals all the time. I’d find out what they use and get that.
Most guys that slaughter our critters use a 22 Mag!!
and well, even they will bounce off a cows forehead and hit the barn wall if you are a little off on the shot...
22's require excelent shot placement to be effective....and in a self defence scenario, shot placement is going to be a problem...
Post by: Kittman on August 22, 2014, 09:33:50 AM
http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=2&loadNo=0047 (http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=2&loadNo=0047)
Post by: b23 on August 22, 2014, 09:45:54 AM
Granted, a sage rat is certainly not comparable to human tissue but I am only comparing the damage done with both types of bullet.
A good debate could be had as to which would be more affective with regard to using a 22lr with a 36gr. HP or a 40hr RN and if the possible penetrating ability of the 40 RN would be more affective versus the greater wound channel that a 36 HP could/would potentially create.
I'd bet shot placement, with either of these, would be more of a determining factor than which bullet worked better.
Post by: thinkingman on August 22, 2014, 09:49:12 AM
Available in hp and solid.
I have shot plenty of Stingers and the Aguila has more recoil and sharper report.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 22, 2014, 10:00:34 AM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-QKArZV9ahy8%2FU_DpMcVABUI%2FAAAAAAAAs4E%2F_iyCdJwT5GM%2Fs1600%2F1ninetymilesukw3v1qkssp4o2_r1_500.jpg&hash=1b78f0ed69bba43bf7ef9f8365f90b30fce83d4a)
Re: solids versus HV hollowpoints: If I were to rely on .22 LR as an SD round, I would go with solids. The HV HPs rely on velocity and expansion based on an opening in the front of the cheaply manufactured bullet (low QC). In my mind, I would rather have a bullet that relies on penetrating clothes/flesh than introduce another effectiveness variable into the SD equation and risk a surface wound or failure due to too raid expansion.
Post by: CP on August 22, 2014, 10:10:40 AM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 22, 2014, 10:26:59 AM
Google this:
Quote
Gunshot wounds infographic from Medical College of Wisconsin Department of Surgery and University of Utah Health Sciences Library
So yeah, while obviously a typo, I think they can be forgiven that in light of their obvious interest and dedication regarding documentation/compilation of wound channel information.
Post by: huntingfool7 on August 22, 2014, 11:09:14 AM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 22, 2014, 11:15:02 AM
It looks like either 22 bullet penetrates more than a 38 in that chart.
Penetration is not only about weight and kinetic energy (weight and velocity^2) but about sectional density and bullet construction.
That said, although it attempts to show relative scale of penetration, I am not sure that everything is to scale, although I expect it should be to be of use.
But it also does not list bullet construction details, either.
:dunno:
Post by: huntingfool7 on August 22, 2014, 11:41:49 AM
In particular, a semi auto .22 can be difficult (or impossible depending on the model) to clear a dud round under stress.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 22, 2014, 12:08:44 PM
In any case, my biggest concern with a rimfire for self defense is an increased likelihood for a misfire.
In particular, a semi auto .22 can be difficult (or impossible depending on the model) to clear a dud round under stress.
Excellent point.
Post by: Mike450r on August 22, 2014, 12:32:59 PM
In any case, my biggest concern with a rimfire for self defense is an increased likelihood for a misfire.
In particular, a semi auto .22 can be difficult (or impossible depending on the model) to clear a dud round under stress.
Excellent point.
:yeah: The best counter argument to be made for sure. If something needs killing and all I had was a .22 I have no worries about it being dead when I am done. But those misfires in a self defense situation would by far be my biggest worry now that it has been pointed out.
Post by: Band on August 22, 2014, 02:20:08 PM
Next question. After being on a waiting list for a year i finally got my 2 bricks of standard .22lr ammo. Are you guys hoarding the "hot loads" too or am i going to find them more readily available?
Post by: sticky on August 22, 2014, 02:22:55 PM
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