Post by: longrangekiller on October 28, 2014, 12:37:54 PM
Post by: lokidog on October 28, 2014, 12:56:05 PM
I think I remember this thread talking about your topic. Is it possible there was a second buck that looked very similar to the one you hit?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on October 28, 2014, 01:20:55 PM
Post by: Jellymon on October 28, 2014, 01:39:35 PM
Those bergers are known to do a lot of damage and drop animals, I've never heard of a failure. There is video of guys dropping elk at 500yds with them, so I don't think penetration is an issue. If you actually did hit slightly high in the shoulder that's the scapula that will drop a deer nine times out of ten, and if it doesn't it will die quickly. I wasn't there though so just adding :twocents: I do love the accubonds though, very easy to get accurate loads and perform well. While trying bergers they were very finnicky with seating depth in my gun, so I stopped using them.
Post by: Taco280AI on October 28, 2014, 01:43:07 PM
Post by: dye7barrel on October 28, 2014, 01:50:44 PM
A bullet cannot do its job if not properly placed.
Post by: longrangekiller on October 28, 2014, 01:55:08 PM
Post by: huntandjeep on October 28, 2014, 04:21:32 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on October 28, 2014, 04:42:56 PM
Post by: coachcw on October 28, 2014, 05:13:41 PM
Post by: high country on October 28, 2014, 05:17:32 PM
He took another bull with the load and it was drt. These are very frangible bullets and work awesome if you are 100% accurate, but leave very little room for error.
My guess is confidence got in the way of accuracy just enough to let the deer walk.
Post by: wastickslinger on October 28, 2014, 05:27:59 PM
Seems that high speed and close distance equals splatter for any target bullet. I have also seen the same thing on a close coyote with .204 cranking 4400 fps with a 40 Vmax- fur flys and the bullet turn to powder.
Post by: jdb on October 28, 2014, 05:37:41 PM
Post by: 2labs on October 28, 2014, 11:14:41 PM
:tup: good move on the switch back.
Seems that high speed and close distance equals splatter for any target bullet. I have also seen the same thing on a close coyote with .204 cranking 4400 fps with a 40 Vmax- fur flys and the bullet turn to powder.
How do you get 4400fps out of a 40 gr. vmax?
Post by: Taco280AI on October 29, 2014, 12:43:22 AM
...accubonds and ssts are great all around bullets too...
Accubonds and SSTs aren't even remotely close. They both fly through the air, but on impact they are worlds apart.
Post by: kentrek on October 29, 2014, 03:39:34 AM
I had the same bullet performance on a bull this year at 75 yards that I did on a different bull at 475 yards
Last year I took a buck at 30 yards... he was super dead
Only one time did I follow blood with a berger and that trail was 4 foot wide
I would venture to say your bucks dead or you didn't hit it in the lung/heart area, deer don't have doctors to fix them..if ya saw his leg all jacked up then it still would have been jacked up the next time ya saw him
Post by: kodiak 907 on October 29, 2014, 07:17:38 AM
I'll take bullets like Accubonds and TTSXs that are proven to penetrate through thick tissue and bone over target style "hunting" bullets every time.:yeah:
Post by: LEN on October 29, 2014, 09:05:52 AM
LEN
Post by: Crunchy on October 29, 2014, 09:19:11 AM
Post by: coachcw on October 29, 2014, 01:03:24 PM
point is both expand and work well , where tsx at high speeds look the same passing through . I hit a buck at hundred yards with one out of a 30-378 and it looked like a pin hole on both sides...accubonds and ssts are great all around bullets too...
Accubonds and SSTs aren't even remotely close. They both fly through the air, but on impact they are worlds apart.
Post by: b23 on October 29, 2014, 01:43:40 PM
Berger Bullets theory on killing game is they are all about creating significant wound channels to create as maximum blood loss as rapidly as possible. They want their bullet to enter the body cavity and go off like a grenade. Berger theory isn't very concerned about bullet weight retention.
Barnes Bullets theory is more about penetration and retaining bullet weight so their bullet can keep driving forward. I call it the freight train effect. A train plows into something and just it keeps going because it has all that mass behind it.
I think they both have their place. North American game animals, I'll choose Berger. But, if I was hunting game with thick heavy hides in Africa, I'm pretty sure Berger bullets wouldn't be on my list of things to take.
Post by: coachcw on October 29, 2014, 03:48:30 PM
Which theory you buy into will most likely determine what type of bullet you choose.:tup:
Berger Bullets theory on killing game is they are all about creating significant wound channels to create as maximum blood loss as rapidly as possible. They want their bullet to enter the body cavity and go off like a grenade. Berger theory isn't very concerned about bullet weight retention.
Barnes Bullets theory is more about penetration and retaining bullet weight so their bullet can keep driving forward. I call it the freight train effect. A train plows into something and just it keeps going because it has all that mass behind it.
I think they both have their place. North American game animals, I'll choose Berger. But, if I was hunting game with thick heavy hides in Africa, I'm pretty sure Berger bullets wouldn't be on my list of things to take.
Post by: jasnt on October 29, 2014, 04:49:49 PM
Post by: high country on October 29, 2014, 06:53:43 PM
point is both expand and work well , where tsx at high speeds look the same passing through . I hit a buck at hundred yards with one out of a 30-378 and it looked like a pin hole on both sides...accubonds and ssts are great all around bullets too...
Accubonds and SSTs aren't even remotely close. They both fly through the air, but on impact they are worlds apart.
A buddy told me that happened to a coworker of his. I'm wondering if Barnes had a bad lot. I killed an elk at 30 yards tops with a 180tsx launched at 3300 and it was pure magic.
My theory is to match the bullet to the speed of the gun. A 270win drives a 130 at 3000 and has since day one .every bullet made in 277 works well at that speed.....now step into big 7's or 30's.....and one needs to engineer his ammo.
Post by: kbrowne14 on November 02, 2014, 11:52:33 AM
I shot a deer this year with a 200 gr. AB at 680 yards, deer fell in place, he was DOA. Great terminal performance as well. Both of said shots on these animals hit and broke shoulders. I just think a bullet like the AB or the like, are a little more forgiving when shot placement or target opportunities are not perfect.
Post by: coachcw on November 05, 2014, 06:32:12 AM
Post by: Heredoggydoggy on November 05, 2014, 10:51:40 PM
Post by: Mxracer532 on November 06, 2014, 12:40:08 PM
Post by: elkspert on November 12, 2014, 01:49:04 PM
Post by: Stein on November 12, 2014, 01:54:05 PM
A friend of mine just returned from Montana. His daughter shot a cow at 300 yards with a 300 weatherby shooting 168 bergers. I guess she hit it in the shoulder and it went down. As they were walking over to it, the elk got back up and started to run off. They ended up getting the elk but said there was no penetration at all. I am kinda thinking it might be the shot placement or the wrong grain bullet for that caliber. With that I have taken 5 bulls and 3 deer with my 7mm Dakota shooting 168 bergers. Ranges have been from 100- 575 yards. All animals fell dead in there tracks.
I put a 168 TSX nearly completely through an elk from a 30-06 not too much closer. Hit plenty of bone, took a right and went through the liver and imbedded against the far hide.
I have nothing against Berger, but I'm the kind of guy to wait for 10,000 animals to be killed and a nearly undisputed reputation to build before I chamber one during a hunt. There are just way to many proven bullets for me to go experimenting when the chips are down.
Post by: idahohuntr on November 12, 2014, 02:27:39 PM
Post by: gotcha on November 13, 2014, 06:38:10 PM
Post by: birddogdad on November 13, 2014, 07:04:05 PM
Post by: Greenhorn on November 13, 2014, 08:59:55 PM
Post by: coachcw on November 15, 2014, 06:25:30 PM
Post by: bobcat on November 15, 2014, 06:33:04 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on November 16, 2014, 05:37:20 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on November 16, 2014, 06:30:14 PM
Post by: actionshooter on November 16, 2014, 06:37:21 PM
sooner or later I guess.
Everything I read is the same, guys love them or hate them.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on November 16, 2014, 06:49:30 PM
I bet that was "Lights out!". :tup::tup: it definitely was. It was actually a follow up. First shot spined him about the diaphram. He was trying to drag away so i hit him again.
Post by: longwalker on November 16, 2014, 06:59:51 PM
I'll take bullets like Accubonds and TTSXs that are proven to penetrate through thick tissue and bone over target style "hunting" bullets every time.
I've shot all these including what I shoot now, Berger hunter classics out of my 300win. I'll never shoot Barnes again but I did always have good luck with accubonds. This year I've killed two deer with the Bergers. One at a little under 100 yards and one yesterday at 435 both absolutely pancaked in there tracks. I won't be going back, those Bergers are a hammer
Post by: coachcw on November 17, 2014, 08:13:05 AM
Post by: Taco280AI on November 20, 2014, 10:50:54 AM
What happens with those Bergers when they hit heavy bone and tissue on an elk? A neck shot on a deer, big deal. Bad angle, through the shoulder on an elk, at high velocity? Is it going to penetrate? Is it going to hold together?
Post by: Taco280AI on December 15, 2014, 06:49:15 AM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv134%2FKman338%2F20121223_123915_zpse955d0ce.jpg&hash=50081e9b84e60b93c916f99d79c8f8f5b3b88257)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv134%2FKman338%2F20121223_124034_zps0b424d2d.jpg&hash=ff1748303ffb6a7728956ca6ff8e3bb5ef6f8d3a)
Full link to test
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7219652/1 (http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7219652/1)
Post by: birddogdad on December 15, 2014, 07:07:31 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 15, 2014, 07:16:51 AM
I shot a bull elk a few years ago at 70-80 yards with 210 bergers and hit it low by the heart/brisket. It was lightd out amd when i walked up to it i could see the heart amd lungs through a fist sized hole in the brisket.
Post by: b23 on December 15, 2014, 07:45:24 AM
If you want a more conventional mushrooming type bullet that retains a lot of its original weight, obviously, Bergers aren't for you but I'm always surprised when people scream Berger bullet failure because they only found pieces of the bullet in the animal they just shot dead. Does it make them any more dead if you dig the bullet out and it has that perfect mushroom look to it? I mean, dead is dead, isn't it??
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 15, 2014, 09:00:49 AM
Berger applies a different thought process than does most of those other bullet companies. Berger is all about creating the biggest wound channel they can so the animal bleeds out as fast as possible. They care very little about weight retention. Bergers hunting bullets actually use a slightly thinner jacket than does their target bullets because they want maximum expansion.:yeah:
If you want a more conventional mushrooming type bullet that retains a lot of its original weight, obviously, Bergers aren't for you but I'm always surprised when people scream Berger bullet failure because they only found pieces of the bullet in the animal they just shot dead. Does it make them any more dead if you dig the bullet out and it has that perfect mushroom look to it? I mean, dead is dead, isn't it??
Post by: Taco280AI on December 15, 2014, 09:41:26 AM
And it's fine if you want a bullet to spray the organs inside an animal, the only problem is when it hits heavy bone and tissue and doesn't fully penetrate into the chest cavity because it came apart too soon. If all you do are perfect broadside lung shots no big deal, but a lot of the time it doesn't happen that way.
Just wonder how many elk have been hit with Bergers and other target style bullets and never recovered when a better hunting bullet would have put them down. At least the 208 Amax retained 38.5% and the new BT did even better. They fly through the air well too.
Post by: MooseZ25 on December 15, 2014, 09:55:03 AM
Post by: b23 on December 15, 2014, 10:06:36 AM
Berger hunting VLD.
And it's fine if you want a bullet to spray the organs inside an animal, the only problem is when it hits heavy bone and tissue and doesn't fully penetrate into the chest cavity because it came apart too soon. If all you do are perfect broadside lung shots no big deal, but a lot of the time it doesn't happen that way.
Just wonder how many elk have been hit with Bergers and other target style bullets and never recovered when a better hunting bullet would have put them down. At least the 208 Amax retained 38.5% and the new BT did even better. They fly through the air well too.
I understand what you're saying and even though I don't completely agree, I certainly don't completely disagree with you either.
Your point has merit BUT I think the exact same point could be made with regard to the many different chamberings. I wonder how many elk have been hit with smaller chamberings and never recovered, when a bigger more powerful round would have put them down.
Post by: kentrek on December 15, 2014, 10:21:43 AM
I wonder how many elk have been hit with smaller chamberings and never recovered, when a bigger more powerful round would have put them down.
I wonder how many elk have been hit with big chamberings and never recovered that a smaller more accurate chambering would have produced better results
Post by: MooseZ25 on December 15, 2014, 10:25:56 AM
I wonder how many elk have been hit with smaller chamberings and never recovered, when a bigger more powerful round would have put them down.
I wonder how many elk have been hit with big chamberings and never recovered that a smaller more accurate chambering would have produced better results
Does the caliber have any effect on the accuracy? Big BOOM or small BOOM? Is that the question?
Post by: kentrek on December 15, 2014, 10:30:27 AM
I wonder how many elk have been hit with smaller chamberings and never recovered, when a bigger more powerful round would have put them down.
I wonder how many elk have been hit with big chamberings and never recovered that a smaller more accurate chambering would have produced better results
Does the caliber have any effect on the accuracy? Big BOOM or small BOOM? Is that the question?
I was referring to the shooter being accurate with a large magnum
Most cartridges are pretty dang accurate by themselves
Post by: MooseZ25 on December 15, 2014, 10:35:15 AM
I wonder how many elk have been hit with smaller chamberings and never recovered, when a bigger more powerful round would have put them down.
I wonder how many elk have been hit with big chamberings and never recovered that a smaller more accurate chambering would have produced better results
Does the caliber have any effect on the accuracy? Big BOOM or small BOOM? Is that the question?
I was referring to the shooter being accurate with a large magnum
Most cartridges are pretty dang accurate by themselves
I totally agree with what you are saying. Most of the time the bullet, caliber or rifle has nothing to do with lost game. :tup:
Post by: kentrek on December 15, 2014, 10:38:32 AM
I wonder how many elk have been hit with smaller chamberings and never recovered, when a bigger more powerful round would have put them down.
I wonder how many elk have been hit with big chamberings and never recovered that a smaller more accurate chambering would have produced better results
Does the caliber have any effect on the accuracy? Big BOOM or small BOOM? Is that the question?
I was referring to the shooter being accurate with a large magnum
Most cartridges are pretty dang accurate by themselves
I totally agree with what you are saying. Most of the time the bullet, caliber or rifle has nothing to do with lost game. :tup:
Exactly :tup:
Post by: b23 on December 15, 2014, 11:38:14 AM
I totally agree with what you are saying. Most of the time the bullet, caliber or rifle has nothing to do with lost game. :tup:
I 100% agree. I'm of the belief a well placed shot, trumps, bullet and cartridge nearly every time. A bad shot is a bad shot, no matter what it was shot from.
Post by: str8meat on December 15, 2014, 01:59:38 PM
Post by: zike on December 15, 2014, 03:23:44 PM
I totally agree with what you are saying. Most of the time the bullet, caliber or rifle has nothing to do with lost game. :tup:
[/quote]
I disagree I lost an elk from a bullet that failed to penatrate. I think it hit the leg at the shoulder, it knocked him down and off he went. Down to the bottom of a 2000ft canyon and up the other side. He was still alive and limping 3 days later. I now shoot 250gr GS, I shot thru a 2" heavy wall steel tubing out of my 340 Weatherby. I don't think any bone will stop it.
Post by: bobcat on December 15, 2014, 09:22:34 PM
Post by: coachcw on December 16, 2014, 09:01:53 AM
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on December 18, 2014, 09:17:09 AM
Post by: Stein on December 26, 2014, 03:00:53 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 26, 2014, 04:00:08 PM
I disagree I lost an elk from a bullet that failed to penatrate. I think it hit the leg at the shoulder, it knocked him down and off he went.And you're sure it's the bullet's fault? :dunno:
Post by: Eli346 on December 26, 2014, 05:06:44 PM
Post by: VarmintVentilator on December 26, 2014, 09:29:25 PM
Post by: splitshot on December 30, 2014, 11:39:18 AM