Hunting Washington Forum

Equipment & Gear => Guns and Ammo => Topic started by: johns8168 on January 04, 2015, 12:47:21 PM

Title: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: johns8168 on January 04, 2015, 12:47:21 PM: Hey guys, about 6 months ago I took a plunge into the AR game, traded one of my old hunting rifles away. Now what I can say is that they are a blast to shoot, I didn't really know what I was looking to do with it but after some time with it I would like to make it a varmint/accurate plinking gun. With this said I need to get the accuracy where it belongs, looking for consistent sub MOA. Where I am now I have tried many types of ammo (both cheap and match, of all weight and types). Seems the best I can get from it is 1.5-2" MOA. I have many hunting rifles all of which I am well below 1 MOA with load development so it seems ( and defineately correct me if I am wrong) some modifications are needed. Here is what I have:

-Adams lower
-SAA upper
-DPMS lightweight moly coated barrel
-magpul stock
-CMMG trigger (this must go!)

I know none of these are particularly great components but it allowed me to get started and see if I like the AR platform, as I do, time to put some money into it.

I am looking at replacing the barrel and go with a new trigger but unsure of which barrel, twist, and finish (if any) makes the most sense...

Of course money is of a concern but I don't mind spending what I need to to meet my needs, again not looking for .25" MOA like some others do but do need to get sub MOA ( just the standard I set for all my rifles).

Any advice would be appreciated as I am new and if anyone has any barrels or triggers laying around that fit my needs, shoot me a PM.

Thanks guys
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: jay.sharkbait on January 04, 2015, 01:19:43 PM: Do you have a Free float HG now?

I would ditch the trigger group for a Rock river 2 stage or ACT single stage.

Use a Free float HG

And if that doesn't get you there, switch the barrel for something a litter better.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: johns8168 on January 04, 2015, 02:08:44 PM: Thanks shark bait, I do have a free float hand guard on it, thanks for the advice on the trigger, it's defineately on the chopping block, thinking of sticking with the single stage trigger.. It's more familiar to me coming from the hunting rifle world.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 04, 2015, 02:22:04 PM: Well it sounds as if your confident with pulling the trigger and your other rifles are sub MOA. You said you have shot allot of different types of ammo and bullet weights. I would ditch the light weight barrel for a standard contour or heavier in a 8 twist for across the board factory ammo shooting and handloading.

Blackhole Weaponry, White Oak Armarment are two barrels that come to mind that are well known for their accuracy..
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: kisfish on January 04, 2015, 02:51:43 PM: tag
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: NW-GSP on January 04, 2015, 03:21:27 PM: Switch to a 6.8spc. I'm getting half inch groups at 100 yards.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: coop2424 on January 04, 2015, 03:30:42 PM: Quote from: NW-GSP on January 04, 2015, 03:21:27 PM
Switch to a 6.8spc. I'm getting half inch groups at 100 yards.

I am getting the same with my 6.8spc.. I was pleasantly surprised with the groups I am getting when I really did not expect it.. I did have a bull barrel 223 that was very accurate also but I would say upgrade your trigger and see what you get.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: mountainman on January 04, 2015, 03:35:45 PM: Few would dis agree, next to a quality barrel, a quality trigger swap can make all the difference!
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: johns8168 on January 04, 2015, 05:16:32 PM: Great info, thanks, had not considered the 6.8, May be something to think about, sounds like a nice round.

It sounds like I am best served by going with the trigger replacement gets me before proceeding with the barrel.

When considering a replacement barrel anyone have any thoughts on coated vs stainless, have read that the stainless have better accuracy vs coated, not sure I am good enough shot to ever tell a difference but thought I would throw it out there to see if there was any thoughts.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: johns8168 on January 04, 2015, 05:19:21 PM: Great info, thanks, had not considered the 6.8, May be something to think about, sounds like a nice round.

It sounds like I am best served by going with the trigger replacement gets me before proceeding with the barrel.

When considering a replacement barrel anyone have any thoughts on coated vs stainless, have read that the stainless have better accuracy vs coated, not sure I am good enough shot to ever tell a difference but thought I would throw it out there to see if there was any thoughts.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: NW-GSP on January 04, 2015, 05:30:57 PM: If your going to spend the money for a new trigger and barrel you might want to just build a new ar.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: jay.sharkbait on January 04, 2015, 05:49:52 PM: Quote from: NW-GSP on January 04, 2015, 05:30:57 PM
If your going to spend the money for a new trigger and barrel you might want to just build a new ar.

Why, when you can switch a barrel out in a few minutes and a trigger assy in about the same?
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 04, 2015, 06:14:20 PM: The other option is to build other uppers and just swap them out. It's all about as easy as it gets. Triggers and barrels can be changed in no time.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: thinkingman on January 04, 2015, 10:47:34 PM: You didn't say what Magpul stock you have but if it's collapsible, you would do much better with a standard A2 stock.
Eye position and cheek weld have a lot to do with accuracy.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: Longshot_34 on January 04, 2015, 11:35:09 PM: Imo, you won't ever get the accuracy out of a lightweight barrel that you're looking for. I'd recommend the DPMS mk12 18" mid length barrel. Good luck.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: johns8168 on January 05, 2015, 08:22:34 AM: Great advice thanks everyone - I have the collapsible magpul stock, that may be the last piece to the accuracy puzzle after barrel and trigger or should it be higher up my list. The MK12 barrel looks like a good option, pretty much the direction I was looking to go and the price is certainly very nice, of course they are on backorder at Brownell's and Midway at the moment.

Quick question on the barrel change, looks like I will need to get a new rifle length gas tube (currently have a carbine on the rifle), barrel wrench and vise block...anything else i am missing. Never done an AR barrel change, looks pretty easy though. One more question, for target/varmint hunting any thoughts on muzzle break vs flash hider...dont really see a need for either but if i go with the MK12 barrel I will have threads on the muzzle to do something with.

Thanks
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: thinkingman on January 05, 2015, 08:40:18 AM: No need for muzzle brake or flash hider.
If anything, the extra blast will make it more difficult to shoot accurately.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: NW-GSP on January 05, 2015, 09:06:37 AM: Get a target crown on the barrel.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 05, 2015, 10:19:55 AM: Amazing! I have AR's with collapsible stocks and muzzle devices that will outshoot most clowns driving a bolt rifle.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: elkaholic123 on January 05, 2015, 10:50:48 AM: Buy one of these :chuckle:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=461157269 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=461157269)
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: Craig on January 05, 2015, 10:54:35 AM: good Trigger, Try a .223 Wylde barrel. and a little heavier bullet. mine loves 69 grain bullets.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: dog on January 05, 2015, 11:50:13 AM: I just put a Timney 3 pound trigger in my R15 and it has made a difference.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: luvmystang67 on January 05, 2015, 12:05:55 PM: I'm not an AR expert by any means, but I find it very hard to believe that with a free float barrel and the right size bullet you cant get 1"-1.5" out of almost any AR. If you already have the free float (make sure its actually free float and not just a look alike) play around with different weight bullets and find the one that matches your barrel, use good quality ammo. It matters a TON. :twocents:
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: NW-GSP on January 05, 2015, 12:12:02 PM: How did you break the barrel in, or did you just shoot it
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 05, 2015, 12:23:10 PM: Barrel break in isnt a science, it's a Persenal preferance. Some barrel makers swear by it and others say "Just shoot it".

I can't even count the barrels I have broke in meticulously. Then others I have just shot and they shoot.

This is a five shot group from a AR barrel from BlackHole chambered in .264 LBC. I installed the barrel on my AR and did nothing to it. Didn't even waste the time to remove the burr on the inside of the barrel from the gas port being drilled.

Fired 9 rounds to adjust the gas block and get on paper. Gave it a thorough cleaning and fired a five shot group at 130 yards. Rounds 10-14 on a new barrel and it has shot even tighter groups since.

(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FFullSizeRender_zps11b04031.jpg&hash=c625705c4a3bd6c1b212754d11b9d2b5a79d02f3) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/landonmoses/media/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender_zps11b04031.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: NW-GSP on January 05, 2015, 12:27:29 PM: Bigger hammer could the barrel having copper buildup cause a accuracy issue?
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: johns8168 on January 05, 2015, 12:37:28 PM: I was not the original owner for the rifle so not sure how (or if) they did break in process, I tried to break it in myself with the process on DPMS website.

5. Do you have a break in process?
We recommend cleaning the bore after every round for the first 25 rounds, and then clean bore after ten rounds for the next 100 rounds. Our rifles require “excessive lubrication” on the bolt carrier assembly for proper functioning during break in.[/b]

I agree I should be 1-1.5 MOA and I am not too far off that, just looking for better, have tried the following

Remington Match 77gr
Hornady Varmint 55gr
Nosler Varmegeddon 55gr
Federal Fusion MSR 55gr
Cheap PMC FMJ 55 gr
Cheap American Eagle FMJ 55gp

The Horndady and Noslers shot the best (still not sub MOA), the Remington Match was about as bad as it gets. The only gr weight I still have to try is a 62gr of some sort, I know the Nosler and Horndady bullets are longer than the rest (except the Rem) so I still have a small amount of hope that a 62gr (depending on bullet shape) may be the answer.

If anyone has had luck with anything different I am all ears.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: NW-GSP on January 05, 2015, 01:24:56 PM: If you did some reloading I bet your groups would tighten up. You can get a single stage press for cheap off of Craigslist.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: jasnt on January 05, 2015, 01:45:07 PM: Quote from: NW-GSP on January 05, 2015, 01:24:56 PM
If you did some reloading I bet your groups would tighten up. You can get a single stage press for cheap off of Craigslist.
+1 reloading opens up a myriad of options.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: johns8168 on January 05, 2015, 02:30:02 PM: I do reload for my hunting rifles, my plan was to find something that shoots relatively well and use that as my baseline to begin reloading, just couldnt find anything that I thought showed much promise, I am thinking that chasing bullets and powder around may not be the way to go until I have a decent barrel on the gun...
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: johns8168 on January 05, 2015, 02:36:28 PM: Feel free to tell me plan is backwards...wouldnt be the first time!
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: jasnt on January 05, 2015, 03:24:32 PM: it could be as simple as a seating depth issue why your current set up is not living up to your expectations. I understand why your trying the factory ammo, but there may be a huge free bore. it may like them faster or slower, I myself couldn't wait. its part of the fun of a new rifle is finding that one load that makes me grin from ear to ear.
I too would recommend a trigger swap. maybe even a crown job on the current barrel, plus may help if your going to sell that barrel to help fund the new.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: Blacklab on January 06, 2015, 07:29:17 AM: for another factory rd try friocchi. (sp) Personally haven't used them. People that I talked to that have really like them moa to sub. Gl
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: grundy53 on January 06, 2015, 08:48:10 AM: Quote from: jasnt on January 05, 2015, 01:45:07 PM
Quote from: NW-GSP on January 05, 2015, 01:24:56 PM
If you did some reloading I bet your groups would tighten up. You can get a single stage press for cheap off of Craigslist.
+1 reloading opens up a myriad of options.
+2
I would bet you could cure your problem up pretty quick with the right load.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: Fl0und3rz on January 06, 2015, 11:23:57 AM: Quote from: johns8168 on January 05, 2015, 02:30:02 PM
I do reload for my hunting rifles, my plan was to find something that shoots relatively well and use that as my baseline to begin reloading, just couldnt find anything that I thought showed much promise, I am thinking that chasing bullets and powder around may not be the way to go until I have a decent barrel on the gun...

Quote from: johns8168 on January 05, 2015, 02:36:28 PM
Feel free to tell me plan is backwards...wouldnt be the first time!

Re:reloading to match/tweak a decent factory load . . . . It's not so much backward as it will depend a lot on luck. Sometimes you can get lucky and find a factory load works great; it's a shot in the dark. Your loads to date have a gaping hole at the 62 to 69 grain range. If you still don't get lucky? I might still try to find a bullet/load combo it liked, or just keep the upper as a plinker and build another upper.

Versus getting another barrel first? It sounds like it will fit your planned usage better anyway. So you might save some money on potentially fruitless factory load-searching on the lightweight barrel.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: usmc74 on January 06, 2015, 11:35:44 AM: First off, do you know what the twist rate is of the barrel on there now? Heavy bullets like faster twist.

I shoot AR competition (high power) and have shot all 10's at 600 yard with iron sites (not as often as I like, but it has happened).

My 2 uppers are a RRA NM upper, 8 twist, and a custom built with a Kreiger 7.7 twist barrel.

these are both heavy barrel, 20", freefloat A2 handguards (competition must look like an issued AR)
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 06, 2015, 11:44:53 AM: The Krieger 7.7's are sweet and carry a huge reputation for accuracy.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: 300rum on January 06, 2015, 01:46:56 PM: Personally, I would start a new build or go buy a completely new rifle from one of the better builders.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: Kittman on January 06, 2015, 02:12:35 PM: I would change to a different barrel. It is easy, just find a good store/website that sells quality medium weight barrels, then find the ones that are "currently out of stock" and focus on them. They are probably out of stock for a good reason. How about your scope? Not sure if you had one or not on your rifle.
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: johns8168 on January 06, 2015, 07:09:19 PM: Lots of good advice, I am leaning hard on replacing the barrel, hopefully I am not giving up on the lightweight barrel too quick without diving into reloading for it.

Based on what I am hearing I should look for maybe a 1:8 twist, heavy barrel, target crown and perhaps in 223 wylde...

I found a Wilson arms that fits the bill for an awfully low price of $160... Anyone know of them, is it too cheap to be a good shooter?
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: Blacklab on January 08, 2015, 06:47:11 AM: Lilja 318 223 wylde is my build. Hope to have done by June. ;)
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: johns8168 on January 18, 2015, 11:43:27 AM: Thought I would pass along an update, ended up buying a new barrel, it's a Wilson arms HBAR 18" in 223 wylde and just got out shooting it yesterday. Everything shot significantly better (thank god!). Looks like the Nosler Varmegeddon shoots the best with 8 shots measuring about 1.25". My next assignment is to get a new trigger and now that I know it can shoot decently, start reloading.

I have been reloading for a couple years but all for larger bolt guns. Anything that I should be thinking about differently other than crimping (assume I should be doing this in an semi auto?). Really interested to see what powder and seating depth everyone is running and still getting good function. I will probably start with 55gr NBT or 55gr SMK's..

Thanks everyone
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: mountainman on January 19, 2015, 11:09:44 PM: My only ever Wylde barreled gun. Accurate with Vmax's, and has silenced its share of coyote..
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: johns8168 on January 20, 2015, 08:29:55 AM: Thanks Mountainman, what gr Vmax are you running..?
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: pianoman9701 on January 20, 2015, 08:33:59 AM: Quote from: johns8168 on January 18, 2015, 11:43:27 AM
Thought I would pass along an update, ended up buying a new barrel, it's a Wilson arms HBAR 18" in 223 wylde and just got out shooting it yesterday. Everything shot significantly better (thank god!). Looks like the Nosler Varmegeddon shoots the best with 8 shots measuring about 1.25". My next assignment is to get a new trigger and now that I know it can shoot decently, start reloading.

I have been reloading for a couple years but all for larger bolt guns. Anything that I should be thinking about differently other than crimping (assume I should be doing this in an semi auto?). Really interested to see what powder and seating depth everyone is running and still getting good function. I will probably start with 55gr NBT or 55gr SMK's..

Thanks everyone

:tup:
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: mountainman on January 20, 2015, 09:48:03 AM: Quote from: johns8168 on January 20, 2015, 08:29:55 AM
Thanks Mountainman, what gr Vmax are you running..?
55
Title: Re: Advice On Making My AR More Accurate
Post by: birddogdad on January 20, 2015, 10:20:12 AM: http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/tacti-cool-ar-15-mods-tips-from-a-master-gunsmith (http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/tacti-cool-ar-15-mods-tips-from-a-master-gunsmith)

research what the ARMY shooting team does.. would be hard to not do the same for accuracy.. if you can determine.. mostly barrel change I think....