Hunting Washington Forum
Big Game Hunting => Muzzleloader Hunting => Topic started by: Open-sights on May 24, 2015, 05:01:22 PM
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Hi folks. I posted something similar to this on the Elk Forum but I wanted your expert opinions from the muzxleloader section. I have hunted the Merrill ring pshyyt tree farm for many years. As many of you know they only sell 150 permits to the 60,000 acre land. Of those 150 permits three individuals are drawn to take a bull elk. After a long time of trying I have fortunately been drawn to take a bull elk this season. After much debate and thought I have decided to hunt with A muzzle loader during the first week of October.
I am not a complete rookie with Blackpowder and have taken 4 Blacktail deer in my life using a Thompson Center Black Diamond XR 50 caliber. However I sold it many years ago and now I am in the market for a new muzzleloader that is Northwest legal. I used to use the Blackdiamond with a 405 grain powerbelt and 110 g of Pyrodex and it was very accurate offhand up to 100 yards. However cleaning the thing was a real pain in the butt. What do you guys recommend now for a good quality accurate, and reliable muzzle that is easy to clean? Thanks in advance.
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I have taken a few (6 ) with a Traditions Vortek Northwest 50 Cal. Easy to clean. Used Powerbelt Platinum 338 grain and 100 grains FFFg. I also used some old buttered up lead ball ammo in 300 grain that worked ok. The powerbelts flat out dropped the elk like I poleaxed'em. All shots were within 80 yards max.
I also like the way the Vortek has the cap exposed. Like "barely exposed to the elements". Hunted once in a downpour in Forks. At the end of the day the rifle fired like i had just loaded it in a dry cabin.
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bobcat talked me into the CVA Optima 2. I've shot it and really like it. muzzle-loaders.com was great to deal with.
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I got a Optima 2 from www.muzzle-loaders.com last summer. I love it. For all the reasons mentioned above. Are there better muzzleloaders? Probably. But I don't need one.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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So the CVA Optima 2 and the vortek are two viable options. What's the word on the Knight disc extreme muzzies? Anyone care to share their experience?
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Knight makes a fine rifle. But after comparing knights, and others to my cab optimus v2, I didnt see the extra money being worth it. I paid 269 on sale at sportsmans last summer, shooting 250g Hornsby sst's im comfortable to 150 yds offhand, though it was still holding decent groups at 200, the rifle is better then I can shoot. I can tag a 18x18 gong offhand at 300 yds, no chance id do thst with an animal though. This summer im going to through on a 2x7 scope and get a load really dialed in.
Big selling point for me was ease of cleaning, with a tool less removal breach plug.
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Thanks syoungs. What would be your preferred load for a big roosevelt bull?
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I use a CVA Elkhorn. I've been happy with it.
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Id probably up to a 300g sst, over 110g of 3f, and possibly lower my max yardage some, haven't played alot with the bigger bullets yet, the 250's are pretty flat for a front stuffer, hunting the desert/wheat stubble for deer it works great. Honestly the 250s could work for elk to, lots of elk killed with patched round balls, sst's make a bigger hole and carry more energy
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I shoot 300 gr Barnes with 90gr of triple 7 works and shoots great!
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get a knight disc extreme and dont look back. i just got a knight disc extreme a week ago from sportsman warehouse. i will be getting another one. looked at the cva accura v2 nw edition looks like a good gun as well. if i did not own a knight i would buy the accura. there a pretty accurate gun i own a scoped version accura v2. i will get another knight a bighorn i will wait until they go on sale and then pick up a big horn with thumbhole stock.
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I would go knight. I've never shot anything else and have never wanted to. Shoots like a dream, easy to clean, and had the same one for almost 15 years. Highly accurate, highly recommended
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I shot my bull last year with a Knight Bighorn with Williams rear peep. Used a 290 gr Barnes TMZ, 110 gr 777 3F, about a 4" group at 200 yds.
Shot was 68 yards, the copper bullet had AWESOME performance. Don't think I'll ever hunt with a different bullet. I will target shoot with a cheaper bullet though.
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So the CVA Optima 2 and the vortek are two viable options. What's the word on the Knight disc extreme muzzies? Anyone care to share their experience?
I would certainly suggest a Knight over the other mentioned choices... plus you have several options.
For myself I have chosen the Knight Ultra-Lite basically for one reason IT IS LIGHT - 6 lbs light and in northern Idaho the terrain and my age make it the perfect rifle for me.
Not only do I hunt during the ML season here in Idaho but I hunt the regular season with a ML also so the versatility of the Knight makes it very easy for me.
It can be set up as a Western Legal rifle...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FKnight%2520Ultra-Lite%2FUliteView.jpg&hash=a916de41664c4e03bf9a55aa34d03816dba47124) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Knight%20Ultra-Lite/UliteView.jpg.html)
And in a flash be changed over to a Modern inline for regular hunting season
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FKnight%2520Ultra-Lite%2FConvComposite.jpg&hash=31c7c592262d4d1e3e3591046874ecab7bc199ea) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Knight%20Ultra-Lite/ConvComposite.jpg.html)
Of course the Mountaineer and the Knight DISC Extreme have the same versatility options.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FKnight%2520Mountaineer%2520WE%2FShootComposite.jpg&hash=c180ea765e20741dbe2f8846fc1f0d8b47277eb7) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Knight%20Mountaineer%20WE/ShootComposite.jpg.html)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FKnight%2520DISC%2520Ex%252052%2520cal%2F9-23ElkGun.jpg&hash=32d30f2ea3543de8902ae7f14568cf3bd2ca4408) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Knight%20DISC%20Ex%2052%20cal/9-23ElkGun.jpg.html)
Even the Knight Big Horn can be switched back and forth... This is not a Big Horn it is a MK-85 a predecessor to the Big Horn.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FKnight%2520MK-85%2520PG%2FShootBench.jpg&hash=32a24d0cdc981bdabb6bce9c780c8cba542b5d2e) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Knight%20MK-85%20PG/ShootBench.jpg.html)
One of the biggest factors of what to buy may and is often decided by price. Knights generally are more expensive and often that factor can motivate other choices.
If you are only going to use the rifle for a few days each year - then WHY spend the extra dollars. In my case I shoot so much and use the rifles so often I went with I thought would be the best investment for me.
What ever you might choose - I hope you have a s much fun sing and hunting with a ML as I do...
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I'd never buy another Knight period. When I get bored, I sell the rifles off for something different. I have a knight dealer friend and he agreed that they are the worse to sell as they just sit and collect dust. I have a guy on my forum with a like new Mountaineer for $450 shipped, listed on multiple forums and it hasnt even had a bite. A good gun if you keep it for life, but when it come times to sell it, you'll sell a $700 gun for less than what a used CVA goes for in order to unload it.
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You should try and find another encore xr, love mine.
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i have an original knigt DISC before the extreme came out and love it . great gun easy to clean reliable . i shoot knight bloodline 300gr with 110 gr fffg powder and the spike i took last year dropped hard and found bullet fragments in the heart and lungs. bullet preformed awesomely. listen to sabotloader he knows his stuff.
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I like my Knight and T/C Renegade. What are your expectations understanding that might help answer your question.
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Hi folks. I posted something similar to this on the Elk Forum but I wanted your expert opinions from the muzxleloader section. I have hunted the Merrill ring pshyyt tree farm for many years. As many of you know they only sell 150 permits to the 60,000 acre land. Of those 150 permits three individuals are drawn to take a bull elk. After a long time of trying I have fortunately been drawn to take a bull elk this season. After much debate and thought I have decided to hunt with A muzzle loader during the first week of October.
I am not a complete rookie with Blackpowder and have taken 4 Blacktail deer in my life using a Thompson Center Black Diamond XR 50 caliber. However I sold it many years ago and now I am in the market for a new muzzleloader that is Northwest legal. I used to use the Blackdiamond with a 405 grain powerbelt and 110 g of Pyrodex and it was very accurate offhand up to 100 yards. However cleaning the thing was a real pain in the butt. What do you guys recommend now for a good quality accurate, and reliable muzzle that is easy to clean? Thanks in advance.
If you are going to use the BP rifle for just this hunt then purchase a used one that you deem to be in good working order. If you are wanting to rekindle an old love affair with the modern twist then look to the Knight line as stated by Sabotloader. The versatility is years ahead of others both in the way you can interchange breech plugs, sights and stocks and barrels. The firing mechanism is straight forward and fully adjustable for trigger pull release weight. Cleaning, breakdown, and assembly is easy. Parts are readily available and the Green Mountain barrel accuracy goes way back as an industry standard copied by many yet rarely duplicated. It will be a rifle you can use for many years and pass down to younger generations if you choose to do so.
Good luck in your choice of a quality BP muzzleloader and good luck with your hunt of a nice bull this season!
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Thanks to all that replied! Your guidance is appreciated.
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My favorite is White Rifles.
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+1 for the white with 465gr lead
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i have an original knigt DISC before the extreme came out and love it . great gun easy to clean reliable . i shoot knight bloodline 300gr with 110 gr fffg powder and the spike i took last year dropped hard and found bullet fragments in the heart and lungs. bullet preformed awesomely. listen to sabotloader he knows his stuff.
with all due respect if your bullet fragmented i'd hardly say it performed flawlessly. I understand it dropped which is what we always want but I never want a bullet to fragment
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i have an original knigt DISC before the extreme came out and love it . great gun easy to clean reliable . i shoot knight bloodline 300gr with 110 gr fffg powder and the spike i took last year dropped hard and found bullet fragments in the heart and lungs. bullet preformed awesomely. listen to sabotloader he knows his stuff.
with all due respect if your bullet fragmented i'd hardly say it performed flawlessly. I understand it dropped which is what we always want but I never want a bullet to fragment
jdb, the bullet did 'fragment' but it is really called 'controlled fracture'. The theory of operation actually comes from Germany where they might be ahead of a little bit in the use of less powerful rifle to harvest their animals. They are able to do this by using a different performing bullet.
In theory the Bloodline is seven bullets in one... the six petals in the nose and the main body of the bullet. The way the bullet is designed it enters the animal through and or bone and essentially does not expand or deform it keeps its shape and continues to penetrate UNTIL - it contacts a liquid atmosphere - upon contact with the liquid the nose of the bullet splits and expands. When the 6 gr. petals open to 40* they fracture away from the main bullet they then travel outward puncturing internal organ tissue rupturing any nearby organs. Since they only weigh 6 grs. they can travel very far nor can they travel very far when they contact muscle tissue.
At the point of fracture you really have to forces working on the organs in the body. 1. the rupturing and tearing of internal organs like the heart and lungs and 2. the velocity of the bullet body, weighing 264 grs., will also cause 'hydrostatic shock' in the chest cavity. The body of the bullet with its sharp edges and blunt nose now acts pretty much as the old lead Keith Nose conicals. But, because of it retained velocity and no real drag, the bullet continues to penetrate and most often exits.
I hope this explains it somewhat. The Bloodline is an awesome bullet for harvesting animals even though some would call it fragmenting.
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That makes perfect sense. I was envisioning a bullet that fragmented like a varmint bullet. Thanks for the clarification!
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That makes perfect sense. I was envisioning a bullet that fragmented like a varmint bullet. Thanks for the clarification!
Well when you see the word 'fragmentation' that is exactly the image that comes to mind... It took me a long time to move myself from the conventional mushrooming theory to the 'controlled fracture' thought.
I used a Nosler Partiton for what seems like centuries because the of the controlled expansion that it offered. I hated a bullet that pancaked, reducing velocity and penetration - just the opposite of what I was looking for.
This picture shows somewhat how the bullet works... with the in and out hole - what it doesn't show is the damage to the internals it caused. but if you look on the ground you can see a long tubular clot of blood laying in the snow. When I opened the chest cavity there was a whole lot of these tubes of blood nad very little of the organs left.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FHunting%2520Pics%2FDamage.jpg&hash=74f98c5ae6b6b1596f7ee4b39bd2cf106d1723c8) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/Hunting%20Pics/Damage.jpg.html)
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I've been watching this thread closely since I'm also looking for my first Muzzle loader for elk hunting. As of right now I'd say my three likely choices are Knight Bighorn, Knight Disc extreme or CVA optima. I'd say my front runner is the Knight Bighorn, the price seems decent for what seems to be a good quality gun. Anyone have any thoughts on the thumb hole stocks?
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I absolutely love the thumb hole stock. Super comfortable to shoot. Can be a tad bulkier than other stocks but the reward is worth it.
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I absolutely love the thumb hole stock. Super comfortable to shoot. Can be a tad bulkier than other stocks but the reward is worth it.
:yeah: Get the thumb hole
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I've been watching this thread closely since I'm also looking for my first Muzzle loader for elk hunting. As of right now I'd say my three likely choices are Knight Bighorn, Knight Disc extreme or CVA optima. I'd say my front runner is the Knight Bighorn, the price seems decent for what seems to be a good quality gun. Anyone have any thoughts on the thumb hole stocks?
Awesome! never thought I would like a thumbhole for hunting - they are perfect for range shooting - then I started hunting with one - now I have to many... Lot of good features in a thumbhole.
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I was a little skeptical of the thumbhole for hunting...until the end of my first day hunting with it. I don't see myself going back, especially with the front-heavy Bighorn I hunt with. Love it!
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Sorry maybe my vocabulary was used incorrectly but yes the main body of the bullet passed through and broke an offside rib. The petals did their job and shredded the Lungs and top of heart. Animal was dead before it hit the ground. Quick, humane and no tracking needed. Thanks for the clarification pete.
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My brother drew a muzzy quality deer & I drew a muzzy quality bull permit this year. He is just starting out in the world of muzzleloading so I think we will pick up a couple Knight Bighorns so we can work together to get them ready for our hunts. These are the ones I am going to get:
http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/sportsmans/Knight-Bighorn-.50Cal-Western-Muzzleloader-Camo-Stainless/productDetail/Muzzleloaders/prod999901363162/cat100008
I'd like to set them up w/ a peep for the rear & hood over the ramp. Does anyone have the part numbers I need to order? Is the Williams Peep still the best sight to get or are there some better choices out there now?
If someone has the same rifle, can you tell me what bullet & powder charge works best for you? Thank You in advance.
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Brushbuster
Just got on the computer... we are on our way to Spokane - softball tourney, but when we get back this evening I will pass the information on. I have most of it written down for part numbers and locations. The Williams FP peep is till available and really is a good one. Numrich still has some silver/stainless ones for a great price they are out of the blued sights -
Also if you or brother are vets make sure to let Sportsmans know - you get a discount for being a vet.
later - actually probably Sunday Morning.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FP1010002a.jpg&hash=a8c01d3ac26b53cfa02d856ff4d1213e112df7aa) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/P1010002a.jpg.html)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FWhite%2520Lightening%2FFSHood.jpg&hash=35f41c722790d15a9bbfa0020418dd744a8c8d57) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/White%20Lightening/FSHood.jpg.html)
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Brushbuster
Just got on the computer... we are on our way to Spokane - softball tourney, but when we get back this evening I will pass the information on. I have most of it written down for part numbers and locations. The Williams FP peep is till available and really is a good one. Numrich still has some silver/stainless ones for a great price they are out of the blued sights -
Also if you or brother are vets make sure to let Sportsmans know - you get a discount for being a vet.
later - actually probably Sunday Morning.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FP1010002a.jpg&hash=a8c01d3ac26b53cfa02d856ff4d1213e112df7aa) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/P1010002a.jpg.html)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FWhite%2520Lightening%2FFSHood.jpg&hash=35f41c722790d15a9bbfa0020418dd744a8c8d57) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/sabotloader/media/White%20Lightening/FSHood.jpg.html)
Thank You Sabotloader that is exactly how I want to set up my muzzy. Will I also need to get a new ramp? I remember reading about the Numrich but the blued Williams will work just fine. I prefer the blued sight.
Thanks for mentioning the vet discount. My brother & I are both vets. In fact, starting last year ID started to give a huge discount on nonresident licenses and tags to vets w/ at least 40% disability. What used to cost me about $770 for license, deer & elk tag now only cost $110-$120. (Thank you ID). Already been over doing a little spring bear this year & could send you some pics if interested.
As always thanks for your help & good luck in the ID drawing which may be out as early as next Friday.