Hunting Washington Forum
Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: Bru14 on January 05, 2009, 07:16:35 PM
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Anyone see a silver jeep middle to late 90's model... parked eastbound on hwy 12 sunday morning at about 715-730...... came around the corner and what looked like to be a Indian with a rifle shooting up hill oak creek side about a mile before you hit trout lodge.... I came back from skiing and there were 2 blood piles on the side of the road... such crap that they can just hunt wherever the f*ck and not get in trouble, I would have stopped had there not been a couple cars on my ass.... didnt have service to call it in.....
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I think that is land that is ceded to them in the treaty, so they can hunt there. Atleast I'm pretty sure. All of the Yakima Co. feeding stations are within their ceded land as well, but they have an agreement with the WDFW that they will not hunt there. My understanding anyways.
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always a bad deal when ethnicity dictates bag limits and season length.
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Some of my friends saw that too >:( >:( >:(. They said a guy shot an elk and two kids were trying to pull it through the snow back to the rig!!! >:( >:( >:(. Pisses me off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They can't shoot them in the feed pit from dec. 15 to march 15. I think.
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I get pretty heated when talking about natives and hunting/fishing laws, but I'll keep it together here. Just thought I'd throw a couple quick thoughts in. First of all,to me, it feels like we all are treated like second class citizens to them. Why do they get privilages we don't? And second, they always seem to be breaking hunting and fishing laws. Shouldn't this make our treaties void? It's all a load of crap if you ask me.
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Subject gets me heated. #1. Elk was not in the area when their treaty was signed. #2 Why not hunt them with Bows and Arrows like it was when treaty was signed? #3 Why are they not on horses with their lap skirts like it was when treaty was signed? #4. Fishing the Columbia River why are they not dip netting the salmon when their treaty was sign? If they claim it is in their treaty to hunt and fish then they should be doing the way they did it when treaty was signed. >:(
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A friend of mine has seen that same silver jeep the past couple of years up there. He saw them shoot a HUGE buck up on the lookout road last year. >:( I was sitting on my break at work one day(Fredmeyer) and I saw a pickup pull up right in front of the store. They had 3 big bucks and a NICE big bull piled in the back. Almost made me sick to my stomach. The more I thought of it the madder I got. That image is burned into my mind. I have to stop now before I get to worked up again.
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I'm not a native, but... i don't know. This is such a touchy issue. I just have a hard time bashing them is all. While it kinda sucks that natives can hunt with way more liberal "seasons" while we have rules that most of us abide by to keep our game herds managed as well as possible, it is their "right" (though I HATE using that word). All that land was ceded to the Yakama tribe as traditional hunting and fishing grounds, allowing them to hunt and fish in places off of the reservation. So it really doesn't matter where the treaty was signed, if it is in their ceded land, they can go for it. 700xcr, I know I'm opening up a can of worms, but its called innovation. We no longer hunt with traditional bows or traditional muzzleloaders or off of horses like we did back in the day. Why can't the natives change with the times as well? And they can't dipnet anymore, we put dams in. That covered the falls and ruined the single greatest salmon fishery in the world. And if we all hunted like natives do, in five years or less WA would be a barren land. Nobody wants that. :twocents:
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THis is always a heated subject and it really isn't a racial issue its mostly about a few bad eggs taking advantage of an unfair situation that somehow can't be resolved by the powers in charge. Fishhunt you are right we also have changed our weapons with modern innovation but with that has come the hunting seasons that we abide by to protect the game from being overhunted by our modern weapons and that is where the natives are taking advantage of modern innovation and their treaty "rights". I don't expect them to ride off the res on their horses and hunt with a spear just like I don't want to hop on my horse and take my old muzzleloader but lets play by the same rules and regs if we are going to hunt with modern weapons. There are bad eggs in all groups no doubt but poachers can be dealt with when caught by the game dept and natives seem to be untouchable and that is very frustrating to most all of us. nwhunter
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Had a couple of :twocents: laying around so I thought I'd throw them in here.
Couple of things as I see it. I think one of the things that really gets me burning on this issue is that in America we are all suppose to be equal. Yet it is very obvious that there is nothing equal in this equation.
Secondly, in the larger picture, a few tribal harvests is not much of a drop in the bucket. BUT, when it's a few guys killing for themselves and every family member they can claim, all at the same time, (read 10 deer in the back of a pick-up) it just becomes UGLY.
Someday they will screw up and do something so totally offensive in the publics eye that so much pressure comes to bear on them that they will find the guts to actual
clamp down on the ones doing this..............either that or all hunting will be banned because of it .
Good night, and good luck.... :(
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My problem with the tribes hunting is this. All the treaties state "In common with" for fishing, hunting etc. "in common with" to the dictionary means "the same as" not fifty percent. So why are they hunting and fishing when the non tribes are not? Second all the treaties say the tribes will not conduct business with any other country except the US. Third, all the tribes are supposed to keep alcohol off their rezs. And then there are other terms. So, let see, all the tribes do business with other countries, have or sell booze and most of the other agreed to terms of the treaties are also broken. Why can't someone take this to court and end the treaties? They are null and void. If you have a treaty or contract with the feds and you broke it, you can bet your butt that someone will take you to court. If I had the money I would do it...
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WoW!
actually wow to what you just posted. GOOD thoughts and also to them. Can't they still get nailed from shooting from the road if its off the rez. Also, funny thing about this ceded crap. I don't think elk were native to the yakimas, trying to figure out where they get hunting rights on them :dunno:
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With all the members on this site, there's got to be someone to give " Valid" advise on what can be done to help stop this.
I'd stay to the Members of this site, Reach out, Somebodys got to know some lawyers, Congressmen, etc. who could give some Valid starting points.
Let's not just sit and Bitch, Lets kick some A**!
Anything from following these guy's with a video camera, to signing a Petition, Calling a Congress Person. Someones got to apply the Heat, How many members are on this site? Good starting Point?
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Prohibition only exsists on those reservations that are there own Nations. I believe there are only 7 in this state.
The problem with enforcment is its on a state level. The Natives are on a federal level and will get the option to police there own.
Even when the state threatens or tries to screw them out of what they "have had" as part of there allocation, they threaten with a federal suite. and the state backs down cause that costs big bucks.
Anybody ever hear what happened to the whalers out of season and treaty in NB? Exactly...
I've seen it all on the fishing side, now I get to see it here too. Its flat f'in SUKS!
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It would take a seriously big and rich organization to overthow this treaty in federal court. And you'd never overthrow it anyway. You might get different allocations and whatnot but it wouldent end.
So there ya go. Some huge organization needs to be started and every friggen hunter would need to join as well as pitch in with funds. I dont know how much funds but even CCA cant take on the fishing side and there 8000 members strong at 25 bucks a member. Coarse thats barely enough to talk to a lawyer seriously about that kind of case.
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Why does it have to be fishers or hunters? Why not join together? United we stand etc... The treaty is not just one or the other, it is everything.
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THe whale hunt out of neah bay is the best example of how far the tribes can go and basically get away with, murder , for lack of a better word. Yes they were renegades and what they did supposedly wasn't approved by the tribe but they did it and got a slap on the wrist. The people who love the whales are a big group of enviros and animal rights and they made a big stink about it but then it blew over and you don't even hear about it now. I thought that was the best opportunity for this tribal crap to get some real attention by the media and people who would take a stand but it never happened so I really doubt they will care about deer and elk and fish. We care but I don't theink mainstream America does.nwhunter
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Sounds like we need a lawyer looking to make himself a name and willing to sink his own time and money into it.. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
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Bone, great point. I know some Yakamas, and this info is coming from them...take it for what its worth I guess. But they said they can hunt elk because it doesn't state what species are traditionally hunted and fished, but rather in what areas. That is why they said they can hunt or fish for whatever on ceded land because it is a traditional area, no matter the game. I hope that makes sense. Sticky situation, I know. And a little crap too.
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I guess I best shut my mouth on this one as it gets my blood boiling. It seems that every year they cross what I call the LINE. I am not going to rant about not being fair and krap but that kind of stuff need to end. No one I mean noone should be able to shoot an animal at any or close to any feeding station. I buy my license and apply for years to draw a special permit and the tribals come along and shoots the biggest bull or buck near these feeding stations. Why cant he be required to draw a permit. Hell I wouldn't care if they had their own tribal drawing. You can't tell me that the native americans need to shoot a big buck, bull, etc. because he needs the meat!! Dang I said I wasn't going to rant. Sorry :bash:
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Wasn't the guy was parked up by trout lodge by the sounds of it, farther away from the feeding station than the closed area line that some rifle hunters sit by and wait for elk migrating to oak creek. I don't agree with them shooting antlered animals AT ALL, and think they should be restricted to antlerless animals off of the reservation. :twocents:
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Sorry, I would love to go argue that case but I don't think you are going to change the Boldt decidion... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boldt_Decision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boldt_Decision)
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Sorry, I would love to go argue that case but I don't think you are going to change the Boldt decidion... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boldt_Decision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boldt_Decision)
Like I said it takes and act of congress to change it, it aint going to happen. Sadly its going to come down to one of these natives being shot or beaten to death by some pissed off person after they kill an animal.
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Thats what I am afraid of and I am afraid it might be me. After the altercation in the feeding station last year, what 1 against 7 or so, I promise a couple of them were going to die before I did. And you want racist remarks, there were alot flying back and forth that day.
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There is no way to no the numbers but if we could find out... I bet the numbers of trophy animals poached by non indians would dwarf the numbers from tribal hunting.
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Feeding station incident? The one where the tribal members killed the bull at the West Valley Feeding station, or was there another one? Just wondering.
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if the indians were made to hunt cow only or spike only...I bet they would move on somewhere else or not go out at all.
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Years ago when hunting elk in Lick Creek in Eastern Washington. There was an Indian Game Warden called Stiff Arm. They had to transfer him out of the area. Local hunters posted signs on all roads. Save an elk shoot Indian along with other things. The Indain was shooting at herds during calving season and was leaving the one lay that they could not pick up with their fatbed truck. What a waste in my opinion. That why I get heated up on this subject. >:(
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This is my fix for the problem. First everyone agrees that the tribes have a right to hunt and fish in traditional areas, methods etc. Second, they are allowed to hunt "in commom with" us. So I would have the state give each tribal member a hunting and fishing license and tags the same as we get except their's are free. The tribes then would have to hunt and fish 'in common" with us. So they would be in the same areas and times we are. They could hunt each season etc. But there would be no slaughter going on. The tribes would agree to have state and federal wardens arrest tribe members who broke the laws, same a us, "in common with". Lastly, the tribes would be given unrestricted gaming on their rezs with a portion going to the state for gambling and substance abuse programs. Now some numbers to help explain my logic. When you break it down, the tribes number about 2 percent of the population of the state I think. So of the 2% how many hunt or gill net? Not that many but they get to harvest 50% of fish and game. The state would not be losing money really on the licenses because most tribal members who buy them here are not washington tribes. Next with everyone fishing and hunting "in common" we now would have longer seasons for fishing and shellfish. The resources would then be able to be divided among commercial and sportsmen (Course that is another can of worms). Our hunting seasons and game could be better managed too (another worm can). Now the tribes would have unrestricted gaming like Vegas. anyone been to Vegas lately? Most of the casinos have the same machines that they have here. So the tribes would make more money to give to their members, therefore allowing the members the ability to buy more and not need to fish or hunt for survival. They would be "in common with" the rest of us. The tribes would still be able to harvest during legal season, that way they are keeping their traditions alive. Now the state would get more money for gambling and abuse programs. This would allow more money from taxes to go for other things in the state. And now with longer seasons and better game management, more people would hunt and fish. Bringing in more money to the state. It is so simple yet so complex.
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Makes too much sense . They already do whatever the hell they want so why would they want to change . :dunno:
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:yeah: Have to agree with rougheye, they would cry like a cut cat.
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kudos to Big Jim for putting all that thought into it.
I like it....better than just complaining for sure.
You should send the ideas to your State Rep - and ask him/her to pass it on to Mike Armstrong, who is now leading up Indian Affairs.
Have you looked at this topic under the "WDFW Announcements, hunting politics, and Activism"?
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There is an article titled "Tribes Killed the Elk" in the December 2008 issue of The Reel News, written by John Fulwiler. Read it if you can.
Also, if you like - read this letter I have sent to my local area State Politicians, including Rep. Mike Armstrong. If you like it, put your name on it and send it also. Flood them with your discontent, and they will be more inclined to act. Here it is,
Hello XXXXXXX,
The tribal hunting abuses of the Colockum elk herd continue to get worse every year. Recently an article was published by John Fulwiler on “The Reel News”; December 2008 issue. It has been posted on Hunt Washington in a discussion, and many of us in this State are fed up with the abuses and mis-management of the herd, and would like to see changes ASAP.
The WDFW appears to be more concerned with political correctness than with trying to right a wrong. The Yakama Tribe is not working to control hunting abuses on elk in the Colockum. The WDFW Elk Mgt. statement for the Colockum area indicates that the Yakama Tribe is to assist in the management and share harvest data, etc. From what I’ve heard, this is not happening.
Please take the time to read John Fulwiler’s article. It is indicated that close to 50 branched antlered bulls were harvested by the Yakama’s from the Colockum area in 2008. The total number of elk harvested by them must be a substantially greater number.
The Yakama’s website in regard to hunting this area indicates that they are to hunt for sustenance and ceremonial purposes only.
As taken direct from their website (http://www.ynwildlife.org/pdf/yakamahuntingrights.pdf)
“Members of the Yakama Nation, and other tribes, hunt throughout their
ancestral lands in Washington State for the purpose of gathering meat for sustenance and ceremonial purposes. It is not the custom of tribal people to hunt or gather food for sport or leisure, but is instead a traditional and cultural activity that is needed to provide food for funerals, memorials, name givings, food feasts, and family dinners. On the reservation and ceded areas, these laws and rights override the jurisdiction of the Washington State Department of Fish & Wildlife.”
We all know that they are more often hunting for trophy elk and very often, selling the antlers for substantial profit. There are rumors of many of them driving closed roads, hunting on the Game Reserve, and hunting at night. These activities are clearly; legally, ethically, and morally wrong.
I know that if someone were to document this abuse of treaty rights with video, and slip it to the mass media, there would be huge public outcry. What also needs to be done, because it sounds to me like the Yakama’s treaty rights in regard to hunting the area will not likely go away; is that WDFW and the Yakama’s need to be forced to sit and come up with a workable, enforceable management plan for that area which will stop the blatant tribal hunting abuses. Currently, they are threatening this resource for everyone – it is a sickening thought.
Something needs to be done before the herd is completely decimated, and/or someone takes matters into their own hands against these tribal hunters. We as taxpayers are paying to have that area’s game managed, and currently, the Yakama Tribal hunters are undermining all efforts in a very significant way. What are your suggestions for solving this problem? What would you suggest to best draw attention to this issue?
Sincerely,
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I do like Big Jims thinking on this. One issue seems to be that rarely do the Native Americans seem to do what I would consider hunting. Meaning they drive around and if it can't be shot from the road then they don't make the effort. Prime example was where they drove on the logging roads around Wauconda and shot nothing but bucks. One of the farmers there saw them driving around and when they didn't make a quick kill on a buck and it died in his field they left it. Not thats just not right. Wheres the guilt, sportmanship, and so called traditional hunting ways in that?
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Well thought out Big Jim
Can't recall the post but the short of it I was at the feeding station early one morning and a van full of tribal members pulled up and were going to shoot that big bull thats on here. They tried pulling out their .270 and I said oh no you are not and they said it was their right and essentially I said over my dead body. I can't even remember if there were 5 of them or 7. I was good to go. Finally a woman showed up with her kid and they lost interest in scalping this white man. What really pisses me off is I know they had to have been watching out of their warm office but did nothing. I could have let them shoot I guess and then took a bunch of pics, but that elk wasn;t going to die by their hands that day.
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Big Jim, excellent.
Bone, way to stand up.
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A few people thought I was nuts and that I was going to get myself killed, but you know at the time the thought never crossed my mind.
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We've nearly done the same in confronting guys on quads where they weren't supposed to be. There may have been chasing with sticks involved, threatening them to get of the damn things. Crazy what passion and adreneline will do.
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Thats especailly true if you have spent the last three hours hiking there
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I think we should all send out a copy of NCWCrackers letter, via e-mail, won't cost us anything but a few minutes!
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A big part of the problem is the propaganda that "Whitey" brings upon himself. In our public schools they teach that "The White Man" owes his very existence to the Tribes during the early years of America. I should read some of the bull that these poor brainwashed kids regurgitate. I have to give major points to one of my son's teachers two years ago. She let me give a presentation to her homeroom when they were studying the animals of North America. (3rd grade) One of the kids talked about how "White men" killed all of the Buffalo, Elk, Deer, every animal, and that is why there are so many endangered animals now. I got to give the side of conservation and hunting to the class. I got to tell them it was the "White Man" who introduced through relocation the elk, and turkey, and that deer and many other animals are at historic high numbers because of hunting. It is hunting, firearms, bullets and arrows that allow this through special taxes. I was shocked that I got to do it, even hunting pictures were allowed. The kids were so excited. Nobody was horrified.
Is it fair to say that while some of what the Tribes want is fair; Some of their hunting rights are fair? Sure. However, the big gripe that we have with our people and our government is that when we break the law, if we were to step outside of the legal taking of game even by accident, we stand to loose our trucks, our guns, everything. Plus thousands of dollars in fines and legal fees plus loss of hunting rights in many States. (Even over stupid trout.) But, if they get caught outright intentionally poaching they might get a talking to, or at worst hunting rights suspended for one year. I think the place to work from is to try to hold the Tribes to a higher standard. If they will not, then what needs to be stated is that they do not hold game in the same regard as we do, publicly. Tim Eyman was just another blowhard until he started publicly exposing tax and government waste. He changed a lot for better or worse. That is my bitch, it is the apathy to take any real action against even those that they call a poacher. That might be a place to start. When one of theirs is caught we should try to show up at their "tribal trial." I'd imagine we would be tossed out, but it would be interesting. If anyone gets word of one, post it.
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NCWCracker good work on your letter!
We need to video the Treaty Abuse when we see it. Deliver the video to all the news stations. Better yet get some Yakima newspaper guy who is looking for a story...........
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Is it fair to say that while some of what the Tribes want is fair; Some of their hunting rights are fair?
That is funny because in the treaty they signed it says that hunting is a privilege not a right. They have a right to fish but not hunt. The courts screwed this sh*t up because they ruled that when it came to the treaty that privilege meant the same as right when you were reading it. That is total BS if you ask me. The indians in our region survived off of fishing not hunting. I am sure that is why they didn't write in the treaty they had a right to hunt because fishing made up most of their diet NOT venison. They especially have no right to hunt elk that were brought in by sportsman and thrived because of conservation and game management.
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The chances of change are poor at best. In 1995 I was a wildlife biology student at WSU and came home on the weekends and volunteered to feed elk at Oak Creek with John McGowan. One weekend I'm home feeding elk up the Nile feed station and actually saw two Yakamas loading up two very nice 6pt bulls that they had killed right on the feed station on the old hay from the day before. When I pulled up in the WDFW truck, the first thing out of thier mouths was "I'm indian, here is my tribal card." then they asked me to help them load the animals in their truck. I nearly reached out the window and strangled the guy with my bare hands. Long story short, me and the county prosocutor tried to prosocute for close to 4 years, until it was finally thrown out of court. So even if you catch them breaking the law, and follow the proper route to justice, they are basically untouchable except, by long range lead! I would never do it, but I know some very pissed off rednecks, that if they were caught in the right mood, you'd find a truck with 3 dead indians in it!
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Norsepeak, why was it thrown out ?
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Don't remember exactly, but it came down to the ceded treaty rights, blah, blah, blah, and then there was some type of deal made with the tribe for discipline of the two natives involved. Basically they got a slap on the wrist and a small fine ($100 ea. I think). After the 4 years of fighting it I was really burned out on the whole deal and lost interest.
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This whole thing is so confusing.
I have a couple questions....ok I actually have a lot more than that but will stick to few...
1. Is it legal or illegal to have a loaded weapon in your vehicle?
2. Aren't there laws regarding shooting across, and within certain distances of roads?
3. Are enforcement officers of any sort even allowed to give tribal members tickets?
Take the hunting out of the equation and what I want to know is are tribal members allowed to break laws because they do not apply? Can they drive drunk without fear of a ticket? Or run red lights? Or park where ever they wish?
I guess I just don't see how they can violate regular laws that even non hunters must follow related to firearms and shooting :dunno: :dunno:
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This whole thing is so confusing.
I have a couple questions....ok I actually have a lot more than that but will stick to few...
1. Is it legal or illegal to have a loaded weapon in your vehicle?
2. Aren't there laws regarding shooting across, and within certain distances of roads?
3. Are enforcement officers of any sort even allowed to give tribal members tickets?
Take the hunting out of the equation and what I want to know is are tribal members allowed to break laws because they do not apply? Can they drive drunk without fear of a ticket? Or run red lights? Or park where ever they wish?
I guess I just don't see how they can violate regular laws that even non hunters must follow related to firearms and shooting :dunno: :dunno:
1. Depends. Wa. you need a CWP. No long guns can be loaded....except LEO's and the sorts.
2. Yeap
3. State Routes and Interstate highways that go through the reservation are paid by us (WSDOT.) Tribal members are exempt from infractions by troopers and deputies (speeding, seatbelt, no insurance, littering, open container, and most all of the rules of the road.), but they are not exempt from citations (DUI, reckless driving, Neg. 2nd., DWLS/R, etc.) and felony's.
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if they are actual sovern nations as they claim, why cant we put a fence along there borders like mexico?this might cause them to negotiate some with us on there tribal "rights" bs.
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if they are actual sovern nations as they claim, why cant we put a fence along there borders like mexico?this might cause them to negotiate some with us on there tribal "rights" bs.
Best idea I've heard yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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3. State Routes and Interstate highways that go through the reservation are paid by us (WSDOT.) Tribal members are exempt from infractions by troopers and deputies (speeding, seatbelt, no insurance, littering, open container, and most all of the rules of the road.), but they are not exempt from citations (DUI, reckless driving, Neg. 2nd., DWLS/R, etc.) and felony's.
Does this apply off the rez? I knew that on rez things are handled by tribal police but what about off the rez?
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Off the Rez they get and have to pay speeding tickets just like you and I. Wow things being equal what a concept.
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do we have to pay if we get tickets on the rez?
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do we have to pay if we get tickets on the rez?
I believe so........but most tribal cops I have ran into dont give a rats ass about giving you a ticket!! but there are a few that doo!!.....from what ive heard......but I have never had a run in with those ones! :IBCOOL:
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No we have to pay infractions, citations, anything just like everyone else. Trust me I had 6 speeding tickets in 1 year. Yes I carry full coverage and yes you have to pay tickets on the rez but I dont believe they go on your record for members or non-members.
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OK so following this line of thought, if they are violating the law off the rez while taking game why can't they be cited? So you can't cite them for the killing but what about a loaded firearm in a vehicle? or shooting from too close to a road?
It doesn't make sense that just because they can hunt means they can also violate other laws in the process :dunno: :dunno:
I've also heard that illegals poaching can't be cited etc, so have all the enforcement officers just accepted the "Our hands are tied" line of thinking? I mean I realize it may be hard to make progress but doing nothing at all does just that nothing :dunno:
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A poacher on our reservation that got caught a year ago got his hunting rights taken away for 5 years and his gun taken away. Another poacher was caught this year that shot a bull moose and the same if not worse is going to happen to him. Both were tribal members
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colvilletacoma, why is it that many jurisdictions chose not to fingerprint tribal members for arrest, rather to turn members over to the tribe for prosecution?
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Good question, I dont know never heard of it happening. The only way that would happen is if they were on tribal lands but they were a sheriff of the county then its tribal jurisdiction. My buddy got a DUI when he was off the reservation, had to go to court just like everyone else, got punishment just like everyone else, had a breathalizer in his car for a year just like everyone else, had his liscense suspended for a year just like everyone else. I have friends that get in trouble off the reservation and have to go through everything just like any other person would have to....Have to ask a tribal cop I suppose, sorry I couldnt answer your question
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A poacher on our reservation that got caught a year ago got his hunting rights taken away for 5 years and his gun taken away. Another poacher was caught this year that shot a bull moose and the same if not worse is going to happen to him. Both were tribal members
This is good to hear. Makes me think it is only some tribes not stepping up :dunno:
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Never heard of it?
I have heard of it, I know it occurs. Many, many tribal members are adjudicated at tribal courts. No record of tribal proceedings is ever forwarded to have any of this information added to their criminal record. For many tribal members, no criminal record even exists. This is not the norm for non-members.
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Where do you get your information from?
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Let's just say I work in a related field.
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colvilletacoma said;
"No we have to pay infractions, citations, anything just like everyone else. Trust me I had 6 speeding tickets in 1 year. Yes I carry full coverage and yes you have to pay tickets on the rez but I dont believe they go on your record for members or non-members."
The infractions you are issued by tribal police on the reservation must be responded to by all. Non-tribal LEO can not issue infractions to members on the reservation. Non-tribal LEO's can issue infraction on SR's and Istate's in the reservation to non-tribal members (most all of us). Like mentioned above, off the reservation. we're all equal (with exception to hunting and fishing obviously.)
Welcome colvilletacoma.
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Whats your related field? Why is it that tribal game wardens are letting a non-member that shot a porcupine our our reservation off with a $5,000 fine and he is still complaining about it. They could of bumped it up to a federal offense which I believe is $25,000 and up to 5 years in prison. Seems like both sides get let off easy, doesnt it?
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Also all my tickets were off reservation. In spokane county and lincoln county to be exact. I have never got a ticket on the reservation as I am sure many of you havent. Most tribal cops wont issue tickets that often. And yes as stated above non-tribal police, cops, whatever can issue tickets on highways, interstates, etc. to non-members but if a tribal member gets pulled over by a non-tribal cop he can ask to have a tribal cop come and it will then be handed over to the tribal cop
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The chances of change are poor at best. In 1995 I was a wildlife biology student at WSU and came home on the weekends and volunteered to feed elk at Oak Creek with John McGowan. One weekend I'm home feeding elk up the Nile feed station and actually saw two Yakamas loading up two very nice 6pt bulls that they had killed right on the feed station on the old hay from the day before. When I pulled up in the WDFW truck, the first thing out of thier mouths was "I'm indian, here is my tribal card." then they asked me to help them load the animals in their truck. I nearly reached out the window and strangled the guy with my bare hands. Long story short, me and the county prosocutor tried to prosocute for close to 4 years, until it was finally thrown out of court. So even if you catch them breaking the law, and follow the proper route to justice, they are basically untouchable except, by long range lead! I would never do it, but I know some very pissed off rednecks, that if they were caught in the right mood, you'd find a truck with 3 dead indians in it]
Do you remember exactly where that was at? Up behind the woodshed restaurant?
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Whats your related field? Why is it that tribal game wardens are letting a non-member that shot a porcupine our our reservation off with a $5,000 fine and he is still complaining about it. They could of bumped it up to a federal offense which I believe is $25,000 and up to 5 years in prison. Seems like both sides get let off easy, doesnt it?
That's getting "let off easy?" :o A 5 THOUSAND dollar fine for a porcupine, not even a protected species? Did I read that right? Wow I sure wish the indian "poachers" were taken as seriously as a porcupine poacher on tribal lands!
Geez, I think I would be complaining too if I was a guy that got a $5000 fine for shooting a porcupine!
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The porcupine is a federally protected species, meaning if he shot it off the reservation he could of served jail time and up to a $25,000 fine I believe
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The facts are this.
Non members face federal charges for poaching on rez.
Tribal members face nothing for breaking game laws off reservation.
Lets not try to make things sound as all things are even. They are not.
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That may be but the guy was let off just as easy and a tribal member would of been. Correct? If he was off the reservation and was caught by a game warden he would of been in deep *censored*.
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Whats your related field? Why is it that tribal game wardens are letting a non-member that shot a porcupine our our reservation off with a $5,000 fine and he is still complaining about it. They could of bumped it up to a federal offense which I believe is $25,000 and up to 5 years in prison. Seems like both sides get let off easy, doesnt it?
Hey forgot to say :hello: welcome to the site.
My interest isn't just who gets what privileges its why the heck are laws not being upheld. A poacher is a poacher and all should be treated the same, american, tribal, illegal, etc.... A law breaker is a law breaker so again the same for all. I hate to see new laws being drafted because existing ones aren't being enforced, so do we need to pressure enforcement? I think so, and actually if some tribes are cracking down on this poor behavior they also can put pressure on the tribes that are be lax......those tribes make all tribes look bad....
I get real tired of the "our hands are tied" so some legislator or special interest group decides to fix the problem with more bunk laws that only punish those who are law abiding.
The way I see it if you know someone is poaching there is a good chance they aren't following other rules so nail them on those, make their life difficult, they may not get the book thrown at them but if they keep getting busted either it may get noticed or they might give up due to it no longer being easy.
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That may be but the guy was let off just as easy and a tribal member would of been. Correct? If he was off the reservation and was caught by a game warden he would of been in deep *censored*.
No he would not have been "in deep *censored*" because porcupines are not a protected species, not on a state level, and not on a federal level. I've shot several of them.
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Exactly runamuk, if someone is breaking the law its wrong and it should be enforced. Im not saying that Native Americans off the reservation shouldnt be punished the same as any poacher because they should. The law is the law. Im just trying to get both sides of it out on the table, seems to be one sided. Maybe the Yakimas need to crack down harder on their members but im not a yakima. Everyone has the right to be mad. I dont like to see poaching off or on the reservation.
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As a non-tribal, what would happen to me if I took my 50cal and killed and wasted a whale off the coast? What if I endangered the lives of countless nearby fishermen?
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I think I am related to two of the indians some of you are taking about, not sure if I should have broughtit up or not.
My uncle has put me on elk several time up by browns place behind the woodshed, during my season and with my tag of course. Yhe day before I watched 2 guys screw up two seperate shots at 20 yrds. Pissed the land owner off, an arrowed elk went up the hill (bad shot) so he pulled the 7mm and layed acrossed his hood and dropped it, made the kid retrieve his cow and tag it. Told himit was his own damn fault for being a crappy shot. Archery take on an elk with 1/2 a head. :dunno:
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Probably not ... :chuckle:
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As for endangering nearby fisherman I dont know. As for killing a whale, they have the right to do so and have been doing it for generations. They are allowed to kill one whale a year I believe
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colvilletacoma, I am not sure that we will ever see eye to eye on these issues. Just the way it is going to be I guess. Atleast we kept things civil. Good night, gotta get to work in the morning so I can pay my taxes.
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Haha wow really? I have to get to work tomorrow to pay my taxes as well. Also thank you for keeping things civil. Im sure we will never see eye to eye but at least there isnt racism going on or things getting out of hand. I appreciate it.
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As for endangering nearby fisherman I dont know. As for killing a whale, they have the right to do so and have been doing it for generations. They are allowed to kill one whale a year I believe
Yes BUT they went out against the tribes orders without the proper authorization... so they poached. If they would have waited it would have been done legally.
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Then that would be wrong. I agree that it would be poaching if they didnt wait for the proper autority.
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Well im off to bed, got work. I Just wanted to post on 2 sides of the story on here and I appreciate everyone for being respectful. I will be deleting my account. Thanks again and good luck hunting to everyone. Hope everyone finds some big sheds this spring!
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Keep the account. Its nice to have both sides...gives a new perspective, breaks up the monotony. This issue is always one sided it seems.
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Well im off to bed, got work. I Just wanted to post on 2 sides of the story on here and I appreciate everyone for being respectful. I will be deleting my account. Thanks again and good luck hunting to everyone. Hope everyone finds some big sheds this spring!
Colvilletacoma, I hope you keep your account, two sides of the story is always a benifit to read! Tribal hunters/fishers do get a bad rap, but some of them do deserve it! I know not all do, but as a non tribal fisher, I have been "caught" or "Netted" and that put me in danger. Best of luck!
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colvilletacoma stay on we all need to hear both sides and you have insight to things on the rez we would never hear about. It;s a discussion and we need to hear the other side. welcome
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It's like watching the news on tv, we hate to hear some things, but couldn't stand not being able to hear it. Stick around conversation doesn't exist without the difference of opinion. You can't stop breating just because somebody farts :rolleyes:
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If you think being a tribal member is bad on this site Colville...try admitting you voted for Obama... :o
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Now you've gone too far :chuckle:
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As for the only whale the Makah actually harvested, it ended up in the land fill because no one would eat it After their celebration feast. They even butchered it up into smaller pieces so it would "disappear" quicker. Bears and coyotes were happy for awhile though.
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I think we should all send out a copy of NCWCrackers letter, via e-mail, won't cost us anything but a few minutes!
I sent mine to the these email addresses at the fish and wildlife.
turcomt@dfw.wa.gov - public affairs office
director@dfw.wa.gov - director's office
I also sent one to state senator Ken Jacobsen. He is the chairman of the Natural Resources, Ocean and Recreation committee. You can email him on this link. http://apps.leg.wa.gov/memberemail/MailForm.aspx?Chamber=S&District=46
I am not sure if it will do anything but what are we really out if we try? It took me about 10 minutes.
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man , i am glad to hear another side to the story.although whale hunting with a 50 cal is a bit much.
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Haha wow really? I have to get to work tomorrow to pay my taxes as well. Also thank you for keeping things civil. Im sure we will never see eye to eye but at least there isnt racism going on or things getting out of hand. I appreciate it.
Colvilletacoma, if you come back and read this, I wanted to address the racism concern.
I honestly dont think you will see folks expressing racist comments here. My gripe is exactly over the unfair treatment that all sorts of groups experience today. All I want it fairness. Plain and simple.
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My problem with the tribes hunting is this. All the treaties state "In common with" for fishing, hunting etc. "in common with" to the dictionary means "the same as" not fifty percent. So why are they hunting and fishing when the non tribes are not? Second all the treaties say the tribes will not conduct business with any other country except the US. Third, all the tribes are supposed to keep alcohol off their rezs. And then there are other terms. So, let see, all the tribes do business with other countries, have or sell booze and most of the other agreed to terms of the treaties are also broken. Why can't someone take this to court and end the treaties? They are null and void. If you have a treaty or contract with the feds and you broke it, you can bet your butt that someone will take you to court. If I had the money I would do it...
I am not Indian, but have you ever looked at bottom of treaty documents, yes I agree those words you mentioned are written there.
The men who signed their names are obviously are well educated, the Indians only left their mark, meaning they can't read or write. Common sense tells you if you can write you are most like to read as well. Here is a theory for you and which I think took place back then.
The Indians were promised their hunting rights, but when those words were placed on paper it does not say that. They were lied to in order to obtain the land in a peaceful manner.
Don't hate or bash the Indians, it is the federal government that gave them that right, So your fight must be at the federal level of government and good luck with that.
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the indians were not promised hunting rights.they were given hunting "privilege"s. there is a difference.