Hunting Washington Forum

Other Hunting => Bird Dogs => Topic started by: addicted2hunting on August 12, 2015, 05:25:24 PM

Title: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 12, 2015, 05:25:24 PM: That last thread got carried away so I thought I would open a more constructive one so it has its own thread. I am wanting to learn and also curious of others methods and ways of taking a dog start to finish on getting a dog steady to wing, shot and fall. or for the guys that prefer wing and shot... either way a dog being steady till released. I know there are many ways from soft for the softer dogs to hard for harder dogs. I personally haven't had a soft dog yet so I am curious as to how the other common ways people get it done? I know the popular ways like Higgins, and hickox. I am gonna be wanting to polish my dog off on the pigeons of course until hunting season when I am out on wild birds to polish and apply it to wild birds... friendly chat folks, educational not hostile...

thanks guys...
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: JBar on August 12, 2015, 06:03:23 PM: Tag.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: wildweeds on August 12, 2015, 08:23:13 PM: In the other thread you were quizzing as to why throw a dead bird when walking back to the dog,that's not anything new by any stretch,if you don't have a copy of the book written by Elhew pointer founder and legend Bob Wehle it's explained in that book to great detail.The dog stands steady because due to repetition you have walked back to him and rewarded him with a birdhead to eat for standing still they learn to expect the drill of bird goes up,and bird goes down and then I GET ONE HAND DELIVERED! The bird ALWAYS goes up and it ALWAYS comes down,when being shown in a trial the birds fly off and the dog stands there just mesmerized by the flight of the bird just knowing it will come down,that's when the handler has him by the collar to move him off to the next cast off point .Dogs have an attention span of about 20 minutes,it's best to get the dog to do what you want in that time frame and quit on a positive note,a dog learns bad habits with the NSTRA training method of 5 birds in a bucket and 2 hours to train,they learn to rip or scoop birds 1-4 and then buck up and tow the line on bird #5.I've been there and done it so I speak from personal experiance.I myself don't have the time to properly devote to the full breaking process so what I do is get them birdy/pointing/handling and killing over them steady to wing on wild birds and VERY limited preserve bird shooting.I give them 1 chance at preserve birds, knock it/scoop it they get the rope and back to the truck and another victim comes out for a try.I did break a dog a few years ago and it was fairly easy as the specimen liked to point,but it was alot of time.I just pay the piper and have it done,once retired I'll do it myself.If you get a dog that always points low and unstylish there are pigeon tricks that will turn them into shiny diamonds,I know them,I've seen them and know what they can do,they will make a dog stand tall on it's tip toes and have excitement off the charts,it's an element of surprise.I've also got alot of bird planting tricks that do wonders for students with happy feet who do not stop on a dime.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 12, 2015, 09:12:03 PM: I'm listening... I'll get that elhew book... It makes sense. I'd like those pigeon tricks you speak of because once the dogs get used to the pigeons they know it's fake and they are much more sloppy. Not that pigeons matter but it adds a new element to the training as it gets easy for the dogs to be broke when they know it's fake. If I get a chukar in front of him he performs completely different. Heaven only knows what I'll have to do once he gets on wild birds... Appreciate the feedback
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: Shannon on August 12, 2015, 09:12:21 PM: I like to throw the bird after the shot and go get it myself and toss it at there feet for the reward. Or I'll shoot the bird and go get it myself. I'll let them retrieve one out of ten all the way to keep them interested. This helps them not to expect the retrieve every time and want to break.
I'd also like to say that even though NAVHDA doesn't judge style it still is important to a lot of its members. I know it is to me. The versatile breeds aren't as stylish as the average setter or pointer but they still get my blood pumping when they slam into a rigid point. I'll post a picture when I get to my other computer of some versatiles that I think have some style. Mine of course. :)
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: Shannon on August 12, 2015, 09:19:56 PM: I like to have multiple birds at every set up to have the dog anticipate there are more birds around. Keeps them steadier and really comes in handy on birds that have delayed flushes like sharp tails. I'll have live pigeons in a bird bag and throw pigeons over there heads while they are on point trying to get them to break so I can correct them. It's fun stuff if you take it slow enough and slowly add the building blocks in order not to take away there style and confidence.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: AspenBud on August 12, 2015, 11:17:38 PM: I can not and will not take credit for it, but I saw this posted a while back on another forum, a well known Cover Dog trainer/handler/breeder in the Midwest wrote it. For some reason these thoughts of his tumble in my head when I work with my new pup these days, even if I'm not following it to the letter.

"Start with runs in the fields and woods. Give good contacts with good flying pen raised birds as grouse contacts may be hard to come by this time of year. You don't need a lot of contacts just enough to fire up the pups instincts.

Once pup is running well and hunts while on the ground start yard work. Teach a good recall and gun conditioning. Then start the whoa breaking process all the while keeping the dog in good spirits. Not a trick of the trade but I like to use release traps.

Once a pup starts showing good signs of pointing and standing birds start your bird work. I like to start by putting quail in a foot release trap and put a pigeon in a auto release trap further up wind. Bring pup into the quail scent. If the pup rushes the quail I launch the pigeon. The pup sees the pigeon take flight which it pushed me to launch. Let the pup chase to the end of the check cord then stop it. Get your hands on him and pick him up and put back into the quail scent. Whoa the pup and make it stand. (Some may not be ready for this stage if the foundation training wasn't done well enough). If not ready just keep yard working until ready. I like to have the pups at least whoaing on the run in workouts about 10 yards in front of me before starting this exercise.

I'll stand the pup back into the quail scent, whoa it and start a very short flushing attempt. I'll then pull a quail out of my game bag that has the flight feathers pulled off of one wing. Toss the bird in a direction that the pup will not come into contact with the bird in the foot release trap. Pup will chase. Shoot a blank pistol and let the pup get the bird. Make some fuss over the pup for doing it right. Doing this will teach the pup if it rushes in the bird flies away and standing puts a bird in its mouth.

Once you have gotten the pup to the point of standing birds in a controlled situation you are ready to put the pup into a more advanced set up.

You are teaching and giving the pup the tools needed to be a good bird dog. Take what you have shown your pup to the woods.

Once pup learns the command whoa I like to reenforce with the e collar around the flank. It then replaces the check cord while in the woods. If dog bumps a grouse I let pup chase about 10 to 15 yards and stop it with e collar around the flank followed by the whoa command. Set the dog back a few yards whoa it in place and give pup a verbal tone letting it know this behavior displeases you. Walk in front and flush, go back to pup and praise for standing and the move on to next grouse and repeat over and over and over....

A lot of people think that you can't teach a good grouse dog on planted quail because of the bad behavior that might come from it. A good set up will yield good results and bad set up will yield bad results.

Putting a good foundation on a pup is the best trick of the trade. No short cuts."
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 06:54:17 AM: Quote from: Shannon on August 12, 2015, 09:12:21 PM
I like to throw the bird after the shot and go get it myself and toss it at there feet for the reward. Or I'll shoot the bird and go get it myself. I'll let them retrieve one out of ten all the way to keep them interested. This helps them not to expect the retrieve every time and want to break.
I'd also like to say that even though NAVHDA doesn't judge style it still is important to a lot of its members. I know it is to me. The versatile breeds aren't as stylish as the average setter or pointer but they still get my blood pumping when they slam into a rigid point. I'll post a picture when I get to my other computer of some versatiles that I think have some style. Mine of course. :)
Absolutely! I love a stylish dog also. Just not the high tail style. My fave is the intense stretched out neck lower then the shoulders and butt up and tail locked straight out... Especially when they have that slight muscle twitch as they are so intense... That's enough to make my heart stop... Hard to get that on pigeons though. Planted chukar my dog does it.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 07:06:05 AM: A lot of good stuff right there. Another thing not to forget is the importance of the steps to break a dog. You don't break a dog before they are ready. You start with letting them be a dog by hunting and busting birds. Then you introduce the yard work (heel and whoa). Then you can put them on an elevated barrel to get them comfortable standing, and start throwing birds all around them.. Then you bring it all together on the ground. This is why whoa training is so important... One nice thing about training with bobwhite quail is that you can establish "wild" coveys with a call box, some quail, and some feed. That way you don't need all the gadgets and you can kill the birds since they are released birds. You hold them in one area with feed and the bird in the call box. As you kill birds from the covey, you just add birds. Plus you can move the call box around to move your covey around as well. It's not a completely controlled situation, but it mini is hunting for the dog and allows the trainer to keep a tight grip on the training. You can also break a dog on wild birds, but you have to really know what your doing.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 07:16:21 AM: here is cedar pointing a chukar at the end of a tracking session.(reason for the checkcord). I like his style on chukar but pigeons not so much. wildbirds should be way different.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 07:26:15 AM: Quote from: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 07:06:05 AM
A lot of good stuff right there. Another thing not to forget is the importance of the steps to break a dog. You don't break a dog before they are ready. You start with letting them be a dog by hunting and busting birds. Then you introduce the yard work (heel and whoa). Then you can put them on an elevated barrel to get them comfortable standing, and start throwing birds all around them.. Then you bring it all together on the ground. This is why whoa training is so important... One nice thing about training with bobwhite quail is that you can establish "wild" coveys with a call box, some quail, and some feed. That way you don't need all the gadgets and you can kill the birds since they are released birds. You hold them in one area with feed and the bird in the call box. As you kill birds from the covey, you just add birds. Plus you can move the call box around to move your covey around as well. It's not a completely controlled situation, but it mini is hunting for the dog and allows the trainer to keep a tight grip on the training. You can also break a dog on wild birds, but you have to really know what your doing.
oh absolutely! you shouldn't even start until you can stop the dog at 50 yards in its tracks with whoa. I did forget to mention my dog was able to do that before I started. so yes there was a lot of ground work laid before actually starting it on birds. like making him whoa in the yard while you play with birds and stuff or when he is a puppy whoa everytime before food and he eats only when he is commanded. to this day my dog gets either put in sit about 20 feet away in the other room when I feed him or on whoa. with that ground work I can now put him at sit in the field and walk away with him 100yds away around some bushes and load the truck and ALWAYS come back and release him with a tap on the head.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 07:29:30 AM: Quote from: Shannon on August 12, 2015, 09:19:56 PM
I like to have multiple birds at every set up to have the dog anticipate there are more birds around. Keeps them steadier and really comes in handy on birds that have delayed flushes like sharp tails. I'll have live pigeons in a bird bag and throw pigeons over there heads while they are on point trying to get them to break so I can correct them. It's fun stuff if you take it slow enough and slowly add the building blocks in order not to take away there style and confidence.
Yeah I have heard that, it also helps throwing multiple birds for the homers too cause they can flock fly back to the loft and they are safer and don't get lost as easy.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: Bwana Bob on August 13, 2015, 07:50:04 AM: Some interesting methods here on breaking to wind and shot. What do you think about the methods used in the perfect start / perfect finish DVD? I've been using this dvd and so far with good results but my dog is not that far along to break her to wing and shot. I haver her half way broke to the gun, but 3 week in AK for work has set me back a bit. Been training by myself so I let her chase the bird after I release it, but only if she has a solid point on it, then when she's about 100yd away I fire in the air. Will shorten the distance that I shoot over time. will this method set me back to breaking her to wing?
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 07:50:33 AM: I can't stop my dog in her tracks at 50 yards without an ecollar or birds present. Its not gonna happen! And she's an FC, 1 point away from her AFC, and 1 point away from her GFC (I thought she had that but the trial secretary didn't register the trial she would have finished in as a Grand trial, so due to a paper work glitch, I'm still waiting on that one). Sometimes you can get too hung up on obedience and yard work.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 08:03:15 AM: Quote from: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 07:50:33 AM
I can't stop my dog in her tracks at 50 yards without an ecollar or birds present. Its not gonna happen! And she's an FC, 1 point away from her AFC, and 1 point away from her GFC (I thought she had that but the trial secretary didn't register the trial she would have finished in as a Grand trial, so due to a paper work glitch, I'm still waiting on that one). Sometimes you can get too hung up on obedience and yard work.
Ya I spent the time with whoa for safety reasons. But that's just me. As long as the dog knows whoa before real bird work is key though. I usually just incorporate obedience and yard work into everyday life as im actually training for the bigger stuff on actual training sessions. Just like before work do some walking whoa around the house as I'm getting ready. Give him a treat make it fun. Heel is the tough one though if you have a fireball of a dog. I know a guy who can stop his dog on whoa with a whistle at 100 yds easy. But that's his preference. I don't think you can get too hung up on obedience, it just depends at what level of control you prefer. I do t use whistles and stuff but I want my dog to stop reliably atleast 50 yds. If you can't stop your dog with a voice command at 50 yds than your yard work isn't complete in my opinion. But to each there own. Doesn't mean you can't still do good in trials and hunting.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 08:09:49 AM: Quote from: Bwana Bob on August 13, 2015, 07:50:04 AM
Some interesting methods here on breaking to wind and shot. What do you think about the methods used in the perfect start / perfect finish DVD? I've been using this dvd and so far with good results but my dog is not that far along to break her to wing and shot. I haver her half way broke to the gun, but 3 week in AK for work has set me back a bit. Been training by myself so I let her chase the bird after I release it, but only if she has a solid point on it, then when she's about 100yd away I fire in the air. Will shorten the distance that I shoot over time. will this method set me back to breaking her to wing?
Yeah I love perfection kennels methods... I found it hard though with a dog with insane prey drive. I used there way of whoa training though. I think with a softer dog there ways are perfect.
With the shooting im not sure on that. One of these guys would be better at answering that. I think imo that once the dog has shown to have plenty of prey drive on birds it's time to stop the chase all together. I start it with stop to flush training. Letting the dog continue to chase only prolongs the steadiness training.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 08:18:30 AM: I don't agree that a "fireball" dog makes whoa training difficult. A "high strung" dog is what makes whoa training difficult. That's why guys breed for dogs that are bidable. High strung dogs are much more difficult to "reign in" making the breaking process more difficult.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 08:25:31 AM: Quote from: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 08:18:30 AM
I don't agree that a "fireball" dog makes whoa training difficult. A "high strung" dog is what makes whoa training difficult. That's why guys breed for dogs that are bidable. High strung dogs are much more difficult to "reign in" making the breaking process more difficult.
Not whoa training, heel training. Cause the dog always wants to forge ahead.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 08:30:22 AM: IMO it's the same.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 08:31:05 AM: Quote from: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 08:25:31 AM
Quote from: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 08:18:30 AM
I don't agree that a "fireball" dog makes whoa training difficult. A "high strung" dog is what makes whoa training difficult. That's why guys breed for dogs that are bidable. High strung dogs are much more difficult to "reign in" making the breaking process more difficult.
Not whoa training, heel training. Cause the dog always wants to forge ahead.
But I don't know what you have to do with trials in form of heel or what you prefer with heel in hunting. In navhda we have a heel course we have to go through and in hrc it needs good heeling also so I am pretty picky on heeling.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 08:32:03 AM: Quote from: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 08:30:22 AM
IMO it's the same.
How is heel and whoa the same?
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 08:38:50 AM: Whoa I found really simple and easy for me but the heel is where I struggled cause he wanted to hunt soo bad. But yeah cedar is on the further side of biddable... He is incredibly intelligent but he is always pushing the limits of what he can get away with. I personally like that in a dog.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: RC3 on August 13, 2015, 10:11:16 AM: Quote from: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 07:50:33 AM
I can't stop my dog in her tracks at 50 yards without an ecollar or birds present. Its not gonna happen! And she's an FC, 1 point away from her AFC, and 1 point away from her GFC (I thought she had that but the trial secretary didn't register the trial she would have finished in as a Grand trial, so due to a paper work glitch, I'm still waiting on that one). Sometimes you can get too hung up on obedience and yard work.

Shows me how tough it is to train for those titles.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: Shannon on August 13, 2015, 10:23:44 AM: Here is a pic of what I consider "stylish" versatile dogs. Can't get that tail any higher though:)
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: AspenBud on August 13, 2015, 10:33:14 AM: Quote from: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 08:38:50 AM
Whoa I found really simple and easy for me but the heel is where I struggled cause he wanted to hunt soo bad. But yeah cedar is on the further side of biddable... He is incredibly intelligent but he is always pushing the limits of what he can get away with. I personally like that in a dog.

I've effectively given up on heel. Mostly because every single Pointer I've owned wanted to more or less pull like a draft horse, some worse than others, and no amount of coercion was/is going to change that.

I like whoa simply because it's handy to use like "hup" is with a spaniel or lab. It's worthless when a dog is on point however, especially at range, in my opinion. It's great for stopping a dog in its tracks before running into a road or to just get to it and leash it up.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 11:39:22 AM: Quote from: RC3 on August 13, 2015, 10:11:16 AM
Quote from: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 07:50:33 AM
I can't stop my dog in her tracks at 50 yards without an ecollar or birds present. Its not gonna happen! And she's an FC, 1 point away from her AFC, and 1 point away from her GFC (I thought she had that but the trial secretary didn't register the trial she would have finished in as a Grand trial, so due to a paper work glitch, I'm still waiting on that one). Sometimes you can get too hung up on obedience and yard work.

Shows me how tough it is to train for those titles.

Yes and no. There's a happy balance between tightening the screws too tight and making a robot, and doing enough that the dog responds, but still has the confidence, style, and drive to win trials. My dog might not whoa at 50+ yards, but she won't blow a back or keep going on a stop to flush. Her bird work is very very good.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 11:46:15 AM: Quote from: Shannon on August 13, 2015, 10:23:44 AM
Here is a pic of what I consider "stylish" versatile dogs. Can't get that tail any higher though:)

I do like that pic!:). I like the flat look myself yard stick on the back flat.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 11:55:22 AM: This is one of cedarwoods dogs and this is my favorite stance for style...
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 12:00:23 PM: Quote from: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 11:39:22 AM
Quote from: RC3 on August 13, 2015, 10:11:16 AM
Quote from: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 07:50:33 AM
I can't stop my dog in her tracks at 50 yards without an ecollar or birds present. Its not gonna happen! And she's an FC, 1 point away from her AFC, and 1 point away from her GFC (I thought she had that but the trial secretary didn't register the trial she would have finished in as a Grand trial, so due to a paper work glitch, I'm still waiting on that one). Sometimes you can get too hung up on obedience and yard work.

Shows me how tough it is to train for those titles.

Yes and no. There's a happy balance between tightening the screws too tight and making a robot, and doing enough that the dog responds, but still has the confidence, style, and drive to win trials. My dog might not whoa at 50+ yards, but she won't blow a back or keep going on a stop to flush. Her bird work is very very good.
Very good that the bird work is tight. But if done correctly you can have a dog that reliably stops on whoa without touching any of its style or making it a robot. That's why you don't train whoa in a bird field....it's yard work. Dogs learn by association. If you do pressure in the bird field it will learn to associate that pressure with the field. Same concept with pressure when the bird is on the ground. You will get a dog who flags or blinks birds.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: ribka on August 14, 2015, 11:19:31 AM: (https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi862.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab186%2Fribka123%2Fimage_zpslvi5umap.jpg&hash=6591361dc76c05017d3b042f46c66db988a5c9ef) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/ribka123/media/image_zpslvi5umap.jpg.html)

taking my ugly dog ( griff) for a walk on property last night. She found a covey of about 15 huns. She held point well. She is 9 months old and am working with pigeons. Considering taking her to RJ for a month before season. She has great prey drive. She does not look as pretty as a pointer, setter , brit or gsp but think she will do ok this year

A lot of good advice on here from the experienced guys and appreciate you guys taking the time to share your advice:tup:
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: jetjockey on August 14, 2015, 12:42:17 PM: Quote from: addicted2hunting on August 13, 2015, 12:00:23 PM
Quote from: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 11:39:22 AM
Quote from: RC3 on August 13, 2015, 10:11:16 AM
Quote from: jetjockey on August 13, 2015, 07:50:33 AM
I can't stop my dog in her tracks at 50 yards without an ecollar or birds present. Its not gonna happen! And she's an FC, 1 point away from her AFC, and 1 point away from her GFC (I thought she had that but the trial secretary didn't register the trial she would have finished in as a Grand trial, so due to a paper work glitch, I'm still waiting on that one). Sometimes you can get too hung up on obedience and yard work.

Shows me how tough it is to train for those titles.

Yes and no. There's a happy balance between tightening the screws too tight and making a robot, and doing enough that the dog responds, but still has the confidence, style, and drive to win trials. My dog might not whoa at 50+ yards, but she won't blow a back or keep going on a stop to flush. Her bird work is very very good.
Very good that the bird work is tight. But if done correctly you can have a dog that reliably stops on whoa without touching any of its style or making it a robot. That's why you don't train whoa in a bird field....it's yard work. Dogs learn by association. If you do pressure in the bird field it will learn to associate that pressure with the field. Same concept with pressure when the bird is on the ground. You will get a dog who flags or blinks birds.

The comment was "stopping in their tracks", not reliably stopping. Those are two different things. You train in the yard, and in the field. There is no problem using "whoa" in the field or around birds. "Whoa" has nothing to do with birds, and if trained properly, the dog knows that.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 14, 2015, 05:21:47 PM: Oh for sure you train in the field but the initial start should be yard work. Then move it to the field and on birds. Physics does not allow a dog at a run to immediately stop what I meant is just stopping. Sorry for the in its tracks exaggeration. Yes you should be able to say whoa in the field at a reasonable distance and the dog stops. And yes my comment stands if you mess too much with a dog in the scent cone or on point you run the risk of flagging and blinking. Once the bird gets up that's a different story. I have ran into trainers that say both so everyone has their way of doing things and getting to the same end goal. I prefer the least amount of pressure to get the job done, some dogs just take more pressure. Timing is also very critical in dog training.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 14, 2015, 05:27:03 PM: Quote from: ribka on August 14, 2015, 11:19:31 AM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi862.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab186%2Fribka123%2Fimage_zpslvi5umap.jpg&hash=6591361dc76c05017d3b042f46c66db988a5c9ef) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/ribka123/media/image_zpslvi5umap.jpg.html)

taking my ugly dog ( griff) for a walk on property last night. She found a covey of about 15 huns. She held point well. She is 9 months old and am working with pigeons. Considering taking her to RJ for a month before season. She has great prey drive. She does not look as pretty as a pointer, setter , brit or gsp but think she will do ok this year

A lot of good advice on here from the experienced guys and appreciate you guys taking the time to share your advice:tup:
Yeah 9 months is a good time to start... I'm sure she has had a ton of time to have fun and chase and be exposed to many things by now.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: jetjockey on August 14, 2015, 05:38:23 PM: The initial start should be bird exposure with no pressure. Let them run, find birds, chase, and have a great time. Then introduce the gun. You can tell when it's time to start reigning them in and moves to the yard work. By then they should be bird crazy and had birds killed over them already. I hunted my Brit last fall with no yard work whatsoever. She got to run, chase, and gained a ton of confidence after having birds killed over her. When she gained too much confidence it was time to put her on the barrel and introduce the yard work. But even then, it was with almost no pressure. She's just over 12 months old now and has been on wild birds for the last month. She's now collar conditioned, heel and whoa broke (mostly) and still loves to point and chase birds. But she hasn't been broke yet because she's still young. I don't think it's too far off though. If she's not broke by the end of summer camp, I might do it this fall. It will all depend on her.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 14, 2015, 05:57:48 PM: Quote from: jetjockey on August 14, 2015, 05:38:23 PM
The initial start should be bird exposure with no pressure. Let them run, find birds, chase, and have a great time. Then introduce the gun. You can tell when it's time to start reigning them in and moves to the yard work. By then they should be bird crazy and had birds killed over them already. I hunted my Brit last fall with no yard work whatsoever. She got to run, chase, and gained a ton of confidence after having birds killed over her. When she gained too much confidence it was time to put her on the barrel and introduce the yard work. But even then, it was with almost no pressure. She's just over 12 months old now and has been on wild birds for the last month. She's now collar conditioned, heel and whoa broke (mostly) and still loves to point and chase birds. But she hasn't been broke yet because she's still young. I don't think it's too far off though. If she's not broke by the end of summer camp, I might do it this fall. It will all depend on her.
yeah exactly how it went with my boy, I think as a pup I only made him whoa right before eating. Other than that he didn't have a single command except the typical no and stuff like most pets have. but yeah it was all freedom for him to chase birds and exposure to gun and such. I let him chase for too long most the trainers said. He would chase into the next county. his NA test he took off after a chukar and was across the field leaped a barb wire fence and ran through the tracking field... it was funny. he would mow down a sticker bush patch to get at just a pigeon... I thought it was fun till a pro said its time to break him. I did hunt over him last year mostly ducks though. he got to chase quail and some pheasant in E. wa. but he was only 5 months.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: ribka on August 15, 2015, 07:54:30 AM: I think in the past I started my dogs too early with the more serious training. Wanted to give this dog more time to develop prey drive chase, smell and gain confidence. She has been exposed to a lot of quail, grouse, huns plus the pigeons. She is learning how the wind blows scent around and is learning to locate and stay in scent cone. I think she needs a little more confidence. She gets basic obedience of stay, whoa, come heal etc. She does well on leash in country and in city with a lot of distractions. She comes really well if distracted on an e collar with a beep, fairly well without the collar. She has been well socialized with other dogs cats, horses. SHot over etc.

So think it is time to get her on a barrel and start next phase of training

thanks again everyone for input. Wealth of knowledge on here.

Quote from: addicted2hunting on August 14, 2015, 05:27:03 PM
Quote from: ribka on August 14, 2015, 11:19:31 AM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi862.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab186%2Fribka123%2Fimage_zpslvi5umap.jpg&hash=6591361dc76c05017d3b042f46c66db988a5c9ef) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/ribka123/media/image_zpslvi5umap.jpg.html)

taking my ugly dog ( griff) for a walk on property last night. She found a covey of about 15 huns. She held point well. She is 9 months old and am working with pigeons. Considering taking her to RJ for a month before season. She has great prey drive. She does not look as pretty as a pointer, setter , brit or gsp but think she will do ok this year

A lot of good advice on here from the experienced guys and appreciate you guys taking the time to share your advice:tup:
Yeah 9 months is a good time to start... I'm sure she has had a ton of time to have fun and chase and be exposed to many things by now.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: wildweeds on August 15, 2015, 08:40:48 AM: If your considering sending the dog to R.J. for a month before the season starts you'd better get ahold of him pretty quick,he will be leaving for a months worth of sharptail hunting/training about the 29th-30th of august.You'll get a dog back that will see more birds in a month than in about three seasons.Last year the bird numbers were off the charts.As far as I know he always offers up for clients to come and hunt on this trip.I sent two with him a couple years ago and am planning on going over this year.It's a limited entry trip,keeps the dog numbers down as to provide a lot of exposure per student.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: Old Dog on August 15, 2015, 09:27:48 AM: I spoke with RJ just last night, and he will leaving for Montana on the 24th. I'm supposed to pick Jasmine up on the 21st,. but I'm still debating on sending her to MT. I also want to run her for at least her CPR in late Sept., and I wouldn't be able to do that if I send her with RJ. I have a week to make up my mind what is more important. :dunno:
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: wildweeds on August 15, 2015, 12:29:52 PM: Solidifying even further what has been learned and transitioned to wild birds would be more important to me than a single weekend test ran on pen raised ducks.But that's just me,He broke 2 dogs for me 2 years ago and they both went to Montana for the extra month.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: Old Dog on August 15, 2015, 01:14:45 PM: :tup: I'm really leaning that way hard. It would be nice to have the bragging right to a couple of ribbons, but at the end of the day what I really want is a good bird dog. Frankly it's also about finances. I don't know if I can swing another month of training, and still hunt the Dakotas. :bash:
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 15, 2015, 08:14:54 PM: Quote from: wildweeds on August 15, 2015, 12:29:52 PM
Solidifying even further what has been learned and transitioned to wild birds would be more important to me than a single weekend test ran on pen raised ducks.But that's just me,He broke 2 dogs for me 2 years ago and they both went to Montana for the extra month.
I agree, that dog will learn a ton going to Montana hunting wild birds. Just more fun if get to be the one hunting the whole time with her!;) she would get more wild bird contacts in one week in Montana than she would a whole season here in wa.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 16, 2015, 07:56:22 PM: I haven't yet had the chance to video my guy yet but here is constructuers shorthair that wouldn't point birds anymore because he was able to chase birds for a long time. I used a method my breeder taught me and helped me on my dog and we got this shorthair to this point in an afternoon. With pressure only applied at the correct timing and zero words said to the dog in the process, no whoa or anything. Basically just started with stop to flush drills then when he would stop at the flush of a bird we would bring him into the scent cone and flight the bird and if he gave chase just give him just enough ecollar stimm that he stops(not saying a word just stim) then release him and after about 6 birds he would point you could walk up flush the bird and shoot the blank gun and he would stay there till released. Of course it's not fully broke I guess but it's a dang good start. That's where my dog is at and I will take some vids as I start bird work again after 2 months of FF.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 16, 2015, 07:57:22 PM: Sorry the video..
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 16, 2015, 08:10:08 PM: dang thing is upside down. if anyone can fix that'd be awesome.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: JODakota on August 16, 2015, 08:31:41 PM: Quote from: ribka on August 14, 2015, 11:19:31 AM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi862.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab186%2Fribka123%2Fimage_zpslvi5umap.jpg&hash=6591361dc76c05017d3b042f46c66db988a5c9ef) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/ribka123/media/image_zpslvi5umap.jpg.html)

taking my ugly dog ( griff) for a walk on property last night. She found a covey of about 15 huns. She held point well. She is 9 months old and am working with pigeons. Considering taking her to RJ for a month before season. She has great prey drive. She does not look as pretty as a pointer, setter , brit or gsp but think she will do ok this year

A lot of good advice on here from the experienced guys and appreciate you guys taking the time to share your advice:tup:

I personally love ugly dogs!
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: JODakota on August 16, 2015, 08:34:52 PM: Quote from: Old Dog on August 15, 2015, 01:14:45 PM
:tup: I'm really leaning that way hard. It would be nice to have the bragging right to a couple of ribbons, but at the end of the day what I really want is a good bird dog. Frankly it's also about finances. I don't know if I can swing another month of training, and still hunt the Dakotas. :bash:

Send her to Montana. The Dakota's aren't going anywhere.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: wildweeds on August 16, 2015, 08:52:17 PM: Here's a quote from 1954 German shorthair national winner Amatuer handler Thomas Schwertfeger "Those who train with a blank pistol are not training anything" Tommy was one heck of a guy,old and crusty when I met him in 2003.He was nicknamed the "Pigeon Magician" by his peers in the early 60's as he was one of the first to start the training process with pigeons.The man needed nothing but pigeons and a hunk of stiff rope to make a top notch competitor.The funniest thing I saw from Tommy was for him to throw his arms in the air and exclaim"I ain't got enough life left in me to argue with a dumb SOB like you" and walk away from a pro Labrador trainer. Killing is the positive reinforcement that will gain ground by double when it comes to training.His buddy John Capalino subscribed to the same old school training methods and his quote was " It's the same story as it was 400 years ago, the dog will point em or knock em,start killing the pointed birds and the knocking will become non existant". These are words from guys who were training/fiddling with dogs for 30 years before the invention of an Ecollar/release launchers/electronic backing dogs.They developed and learned how to do it the old fashioned way.If I could go back in time and talk to but one professional birddog man from yesteryear it would be Herman F Smith.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 16, 2015, 09:09:23 PM: Ya blank guns have their place... I use my shotgun, cause I haven't bought a blank gun. Old school is fine but with our new gadgets and advancement in dog physiology why not use it to your advantage. Also too I know old school guys who would shoot a dog that didn't make the cut in training. They would beat dog with flushing whips to break dogs and all sorts of stuff that would put you in jail now. Atleast in the German versatile world that is. I know a specific German who was quite known for his harsh training but was also key in making my breed what it is today. Trials and other stuff I'm not sure as I don't know that end of dog stuff. I know working puppies on blank guns are a great way for intro to gun...
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: jetjockey on August 17, 2015, 03:41:33 AM: Addicted. I know a few of those old school guys as well. Most will tell you they would never go back to the old ways of training. I hunt with one on occasion, he was a Pro, and so was his dad. From a young age it was his job to "cull" the drop outs. You don't want to hear the stories because they will make you cringe. He will tell you he's much softer today than he was back the , and believe me, he and t soft now. He will also tell you they shot a lot of birds over dogs in training back then. Unfortunately, those birds were rarely in season when they were killed, but those old timers didn't care. I've been fortunate enough to see a bunch of different Pros work dogs, and some dams good amateurs as well. You can get a LOT of work done with a blank gun. If I had to chose between a Pro who worked almost entirely on killed released birds with very few wild birds thrown in, and a Pro who worked dogs on almost entirely wild birds with a few killed birds thrown in, I know who I'd choose, no questions asked. The key is getting the dog to enjoy the find, and not just the retrieve. Many, if not most AF Pointers and Setters never retrieve a bird, yet they are ridiculously nice bird dogs. How do you think that happens since they may never be allowed to retrieve?
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: addicted2hunting on August 17, 2015, 07:26:55 AM: Quote from: jetjockey on August 17, 2015, 03:41:33 AM
Addicted. I know a few of those old school guys as well. Most will tell you they would never go back to the old ways of training. I hunt with one on occasion, he was a Pro, and so was his dad. From a young age it was his job to "cull" the drop outs. You don't want to hear the stories because they will make you cringe. He will tell you he's much softer today than he was back the , and believe me, he and t soft now. He will also tell you they shot a lot of birds over dogs in training back then. Unfortunately, those birds were rarely in season when they were killed, but those old timers didn't care. I've been fortunate enough to see a bunch of different Pros work dogs, and some dams good amateurs as well. You can get a LOT of work done with a blank gun. If I had to chose between a Pro who worked almost entirely on killed released birds with very few wild birds thrown in, and a Pro who worked dogs on almost entirely wild birds with a few killed birds thrown in, I know who I'd choose, no questions asked. The key is getting the dog to enjoy the find, and not just the retrieve. Many, if not most AF Pointers and Setters never retrieve a bird, yet they are ridiculously nice bird dogs. How do you think that happens since they may never be allowed to retrieve?
Ya for sure. I don't think I could even watch if a guy were to train the way of stories I've heard... I mean being a little rough with a really tough dog is one thing but there is a point where it's just way over board. Ya you can get a lot done with a blank gun for sure but it's inevitable that your gonna have to go to the shotgun. But a blank gun is nice also for legality purposes when guys training in public and city limits and stuff don't wanna get in trouble. Ya I'm sure you've seen a ton of pros as much as you travel. Yeah I agree with the find and retrieve deal. Makes sense. Like I've been taught to not let the dog retrieve any birds and you go out and retrieve the bird. I like the idea of giving a dead one to the dog right after vs going to pick up the one you shot. I'm gonna have to try that out.
Title: Re: Getting a dog Steady to wing, shot and fall what are your methods?
Post by: constructeur on August 19, 2015, 04:22:21 PM: Ha, how's a guy supposed to train for AKC hunt tests if he shouldn't be using a blank gun now :o for the record he's the kind of goin' dude that isn't even bothered by fireworks...It's just nice to train for what he'll be seeing, I don't want to get pinched by little piddly crap, and blank guns are legal in this modern day and age of shooting ordinances....

Here's the bottom line: a couple of amateurs took a fire breathing dragon (damed by a NGSPA national futurity champ) that would wrench your back dragging you around a field in May, to a dog that will handsomely point a few days later. No mean training techniques, just crisp and succinct corrections.

I'm about halfway done force fetching the dog at this time. This season I'll be stoning birds and having him retrieve to hand; no jive, no keep away, no dropping winged birds 10' from me.