Post by: UplandJoe on October 20, 2015, 06:54:10 PM
I have been hunting some of the release sites in Western Washington and on two occasions I have dropped a bird in relatively thick cover, with a reasonable sight on where it dropped only to completely lose it. My dogs (2) are more or less untrained... but do have noses and we just can't find the bird. (I have been training my lab/pointer with a dead bird and she usually finds it)
This morning I dropped a rooster as it was flying directly out and away from me and it dropped hard but I cased a 40 yard area with no luck
My thinking it my shot size (7) with my 20 gauge is too light and when they hit the ground they start running. Am I far off base with this line of thinking? am I just blind? are my dogs that terrible?
Thanks in advance!
Post by: JODakota on October 20, 2015, 07:13:03 PM
Post by: bobcat on October 20, 2015, 07:16:38 PM
Post by: Bullkllr on October 20, 2015, 07:23:46 PM
I would feel somewhat under-gunned with a 20 gauge with #7 shot for general pheasant conditions. Pheasants (even pen-raised) are big birds and can take a hit. That combo would work in close-up easy rise situations, but they ain't all like that.
I'm guessing they are running as soon as they hit the ground and disappearing, making it tough for any dog to find them depending on the cover. I lost one this year that fell in the most godawful blackberry patch across the river. It was my second shot and probably an iffy one, but I took it. My dog did not see the fall (heavy brush) and we searched all through there and never turned it up. That was with #2 steel out of a 12 gauge.
Post by: Bill W on October 20, 2015, 07:45:59 PM
If you don't have confidence in your 7's, go to 6's. I assume you are shooting reloads right now.
Post by: Quackwhacker on October 20, 2015, 08:35:50 PM
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Post by: UplandJoe on October 20, 2015, 08:50:12 PM
Any quail hunters looking for some non-toxic? real cheap! pm me 20 gauge 2 3/4
Post by: WSU on October 20, 2015, 08:56:47 PM
Post by: wildweeds on October 20, 2015, 08:58:10 PM
Post by: Old Dog on October 20, 2015, 10:04:12 PM
Post by: CP on October 21, 2015, 04:53:49 AM
Way too light of a load for steel.
:yeah:
Use #2s - There is no advantage to using smaller shot
Post by: Blackjaw on October 21, 2015, 06:38:24 AM
Post by: T-Bone on October 21, 2015, 06:42:39 AM
If you have fixed FULL choked gun, get some Rio Bismuth or Kent Tungten Matrix. Both bismuth and tungsten matrix approximate lead density; so now the #6 or #5 shot sizes should be O.K. for pen raised birds.
Hope these suggests help.
Tom
Post by: RadSav on October 21, 2015, 07:01:33 AM
I ended up ordering some Kent Ultimate Pheasant from Brownell's, because I couldn't find anything locally.
If I recall the Ultimate Upland stuff is FastLead. Pheasant release sites require non-toxic shot. So be careful with that...they will write tickets!
When we work the pheasant sites I always spend the money on good loads. That used to mean Remington HD but those are no longer available. Man was that stuff fantastic!!! Now we have to settle for Hevi-Shot. Not at all as good as the HD stuff, but far and away better than steel. We run 7.5 in the good stuff. But occasionally we have a hard time finding it. When that happens we switch to Kent Fast Steel in #5. Doesn't reach out and whack 'em like the Hevi, but it does the trick. #4 steel from just about anyone works ok too, just tears up meat when you shouldn't need to.
You may want to change your focus of attention when shooting pheasant also. Most guys concentrate on the center of the bird. If you are getting a high number of cripples try concentrating on the base of the neck or even a little further out. Might put the dense center of the pattern further forward on the birds. If you still are having issues you might be shooting a little low also. In that case imagine a golf ball hovering over the bird between the wings and the head. I have a Beretta that likes it when I do that. I'll likely have the barrel bent one of these days, but for now that works well.
Post by: AspenBud on October 21, 2015, 07:33:36 AM
You can get away with #7 and for ruffed grouse and quail. With pheasant it will most likely wound them. Your birds probably put their track shoes on and ran after they hit the ground. Not unusual at all with them and they can be fast.
Post by: Bill W on October 21, 2015, 07:47:01 AM
Thanks everyone. I will get some 5 or 6 and report back.. too bad I bought a whole case of 7's! So used to shooting skeet that I figured I would need that many shells.
Any quail hunters looking for some non-toxic? real cheap! pm me 20 gauge 2 3/4
I forgot the release sites require steel. Like everyone else says larger is needed when using steel. For the senior hunt I used Kent Fasteel 5's in the short 20's. All pheasants survived as they were not in the pattern.
Post by: UplandJoe on October 21, 2015, 07:51:45 AM
The Pheasant Release Sites require non-toxic shot; #7 steel is a dove load. Pheasants, even pen raised ones, can die hard. I suggest no less than #4 steel (the ballistic twin to #6 lead) or better yet #3 or #2 steel (#2 steel is the ballistic twin to #4 lead). Use a 3" shell in a gun with either IC or Mod. chokes; never use a FULL choked gun with steel shot due to the possibility of barrel damage.
If you have fixed FULL choked gun, get some Rio Bismuth or Kent Tungten Matrix. Both bismuth and tungsten matrix approximate lead density; so now the #6 or #5 shot sizes should be O.K. for pen raised birds.
Hope these suggests help.
Tom
Thanks for the insight!
I am using an old family Remington 1100 which has a 26" skeet barrel on it. Will I do any damage using a heavier steel shot load?
Post by: T-Bone on October 21, 2015, 08:03:33 AM
The Pheasant Release Sites require non-toxic shot; #7 steel is a dove load. Pheasants, even pen raised ones, can die hard. I suggest no less than #4 steel (the ballistic twin to #6 lead) or better yet #3 or #2 steel (#2 steel is the ballistic twin to #4 lead). Use a 3" shell in a gun with either IC or Mod. chokes; never use a FULL choked gun with steel shot due to the possibility of barrel damage.
If you have fixed FULL choked gun, get some Rio Bismuth or Kent Tungten Matrix. Both bismuth and tungsten matrix approximate lead density; so now the #6 or #5 shot sizes should be O.K. for pen raised birds.
Hope these suggests help.
Tom
Thanks for the insight!
I am using an old family Remington 1100 which has a 26" skeet barrel on it. Will I do any damage using a heavier steel shot load?
Your skeet choke is fine with the #4 - #2 steel. Is your gun chambered for 3" shells? If not, spending the extra $$$ on Hevishot in #5 or #6 does make sense. Hevishot is actually heavier/denser than lead.
Tom
Post by: Old Dog on October 21, 2015, 08:14:41 AM
I ended up ordering some Kent Ultimate Pheasant from Brownell's, because I couldn't find anything locally.
If I recall the Ultimate Upland stuff is FastLead. Pheasant release sites require non-toxic shot. So be careful with that...they will write tickets!
I may have gotten the name wrong, but it's the tungsten polymer shot.
Post by: Ironhead on October 21, 2015, 08:31:51 AM
Post by: AspenBud on October 21, 2015, 09:11:03 AM
Rookie question:
I have been hunting some of the release sites in Western Washington and on two occasions I have dropped a bird in relatively thick cover, with a reasonable sight on where it dropped only to completely lose it. My dogs (2) are more or less untrained... but do have noses and we just can't find the bird. (I have been training my lab/pointer with a dead bird and she usually finds it)
Just an additional thought. Are you training the dog to point or flush birds? Don't take this badly as I only say this to point out a possible problem, if the dog isn't pointing it may not be hunting as much as you think and instead be relying on chance encounters to create a flush. Release site birds can be easy pickings for a lot of dogs since they don't really know how to avoid predators. All dogs are not created equal. :twocents:
(My bet is still on your shot size)
Post by: Labs07 on October 21, 2015, 09:40:46 AM
Post by: UplandJoe on October 21, 2015, 12:12:45 PM
Rookie question:
I have been hunting some of the release sites in Western Washington and on two occasions I have dropped a bird in relatively thick cover, with a reasonable sight on where it dropped only to completely lose it. My dogs (2) are more or less untrained... but do have noses and we just can't find the bird. (I have been training my lab/pointer with a dead bird and she usually finds it)
Just an additional thought. Are you training the dog to point or flush birds? Don't take this badly as I only say this to point out a possible problem, if the dog isn't pointing it may not be hunting as much as you think and instead be relying on chance encounters to create a flush. Release site birds can be easy pickings for a lot of dogs since they don't really know how to avoid predators. All dogs are not created equal. :twocents:
(My bet is still on your shot size)
Oh I am well aware that we are not "hunting" in a traditional sense. My dogs (lab-pointer and GSP) were both adopted from shelters when they were 4 and 3 respectively. While they look like hunting dogs they have not had any formal training.
I have been working with the lab-pointer, Lucy, on retrieving. She is really good at finding dead birds and dummies and will bring them to me.
They both respond well to hand signals and calls or beeps from their collars but they don't really know what they are looking for.
Most of our flushes are accidental. Lucy will hunt a rodent to a squirrel to a tweety bird. Bruno, the GSP has been on point once, on a bronze statue of a chicken
I am using the Release sites as more of a training ground with live birds. Hoping that once Bruno realizes he can't catch the bird He'll give me a point and enough positive reinforcement and experience will get Lucy to find and bring me back a dropped bird that hasn't been frozen.
As for what I can change quickly is the shot size, so I will work on that.
Post by: wonder on October 21, 2015, 12:23:48 PM
Good luck
Post by: AspenBud on October 21, 2015, 01:38:47 PM
Rookie question:
I have been hunting some of the release sites in Western Washington and on two occasions I have dropped a bird in relatively thick cover, with a reasonable sight on where it dropped only to completely lose it. My dogs (2) are more or less untrained... but do have noses and we just can't find the bird. (I have been training my lab/pointer with a dead bird and she usually finds it)
Just an additional thought. Are you training the dog to point or flush birds? Don't take this badly as I only say this to point out a possible problem, if the dog isn't pointing it may not be hunting as much as you think and instead be relying on chance encounters to create a flush. Release site birds can be easy pickings for a lot of dogs since they don't really know how to avoid predators. All dogs are not created equal. :twocents:
(My bet is still on your shot size)
Oh I am well aware that we are not "hunting" in a traditional sense. My dogs (lab-pointer and GSP) were both adopted from shelters when they were 4 and 3 respectively. While they look like hunting dogs they have not had any formal training.
I have been working with the lab-pointer, Lucy, on retrieving. She is really good at finding dead birds and dummies and will bring them to me.
They both respond well to hand signals and calls or beeps from their collars but they don't really know what they are looking for.
Most of our flushes are accidental. Lucy will hunt a rodent to a squirrel to a tweety bird. Bruno, the GSP has been on point once, on a bronze statue of a chicken
I am using the Release sites as more of a training ground with live birds. Hoping that once Bruno realizes he can't catch the bird He'll give me a point and enough positive reinforcement and experience will get Lucy to find and bring me back a dropped bird that hasn't been frozen.
As for what I can change quickly is the shot size, so I will work on that.
If you're not doing it already, try dragging a bird to a location (make sure the dog is out of sight) and then send the dog in for a retrieve. With running birds like pheasant you want a dog to be able to track a little.
Post by: RadSav on October 21, 2015, 02:11:10 PM
I ended up ordering some Kent Ultimate Pheasant from Brownell's, because I couldn't find anything locally.
If I recall the Ultimate Upland stuff is FastLead. Pheasant release sites require non-toxic shot. So be careful with that...they will write tickets!
I may have gotten the name wrong, but it's the tungsten polymer shot.
If it is from Kent I think that is the Tungsten Matrix. I've only shot one box of the stuff, but it worked pretty good! Didn't seem to have the range the Hevi and HD stuff did. But it is suppose to be a great choice for old barreled guns. And is still WAY better than steel IMO.
I know two old guys at the release site that shoot nothing but that stuff in their old double guns. I don't see them losing many birds. They are running extremely good pointers though. So I've never seen them really reach out for anything.
Post by: WSU on October 21, 2015, 02:17:14 PM
Post by: RadSav on October 21, 2015, 02:31:13 PM
Post by: CP on October 21, 2015, 02:40:24 PM
Post by: Bullkllr on October 21, 2015, 04:11:39 PM
Post by: T-Bone on October 22, 2015, 07:29:55 AM
http://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/rio-bismuth-20-gauge-shotshells?repChildCatid=929932
Tom
Post by: doubletall on October 22, 2015, 09:52:26 AM
Where do you find it? I ended up ordering some Kent Ultimate Pheasant from Brownell's, because I couldn't find anything locally.
They usually have the Classic Doubles Hevi Shot at Sportco; it's pretty spendy, like 3-4 bucks a round.
Post by: Bill W on October 22, 2015, 01:32:11 PM
I wish I could say it works for me but my issue is getting the little birdie to position itself in the pattern. I didn't practice at all this year.
Post by: dustysags on October 22, 2015, 01:35:01 PM
Post by: bobcat on October 22, 2015, 01:46:17 PM
Post by: CP on October 22, 2015, 02:00:50 PM
Post by: RadSav on October 22, 2015, 02:21:05 PM
With a 20 gauge I'd use something other than steel shot. The alternatives do cost a little more, but how many shells do you really go through on a pheasant hunt anyway?
I would order two cases each year from Sportsman's Guide. Wife and I hit the release site four days a week. Usually last us the entire season. When you actually kill/find the birds you shoot ammo lasts a long time. Release birds are slow, easy to hit and all you get are two birds a day. That doesn't eat up much ammo. 20 gauge Rocks!
Post by: D-Rock425 on October 22, 2015, 02:28:08 PM
The obvious solution is a 12 gauge. ;)he meant 10 gauge
Post by: ctwiggs1 on October 22, 2015, 02:50:23 PM
With a 20 gauge I'd use something other than steel shot. The alternatives do cost a little more, but how many shells do you really go through on a pheasant hunt anyway?
I would order two cases each year from Sportsman's Guide. Wife and I hit the release site four days a week. Usually last us the entire season. When you actually kill/find the birds you shoot ammo lasts a long time. Release birds are slow, easy to hit and all you get are two birds a day. That doesn't eat up much ammo. 20 gauge Rocks!
:yeah: I switched to old nastalgia, my first shotgun that was gifted to me from my dad when I was 10. 20 gauge single shot break action shotgun! Love carrying that little lightweight beauty around the fields. Hasn't held me back at all!
Post by: Goldeneye on October 22, 2015, 03:08:43 PM
The obvious solution is a 12 gauge. ;)he meant 10 gauge
Something like this?
Post by: RadSav on October 22, 2015, 03:11:07 PM
Post by: westsidehntr on October 22, 2015, 03:12:53 PM
Post by: Bill W on October 22, 2015, 04:29:49 PM
Post by: RadSav on October 22, 2015, 04:45:12 PM
Post by: JODakota on October 22, 2015, 06:06:40 PM
With a 20 gauge I'd use something other than steel shot. The alternatives do cost a little more, but how many shells do you really go through on a pheasant hunt anyway?
That depends on what other species of birds are around... :chuckle:
Post by: TVHunts on October 23, 2015, 07:46:07 PM
Post by: scottr on October 27, 2015, 09:18:07 PM
Thanks everyone. I will get some 5 or 6 and report back.. too bad I bought a whole case of 7's! So used to shooting skeet that I figured I would need that many shells.
Any quail hunters looking for some non-toxic? real cheap! pm me 20 gauge 2 3/4
I'm interested. Where are you located?
Post by: UplandJoe on November 09, 2015, 08:29:55 PM
It is impossible to find 20 gauge steel 2 3/4 shot below 7 in the puget sound region...While I wait for Cabelas to deliver the hevimetal I ordered, I went out to a release site with my before mentioned dove shot.
Bruno, my GSP, is improving immensely: He is starting to understand why we are out in the field and what we are after, getting birdy and methodical. He goes on point(!) Lucy, my GSP/lab running amok accidentally(?) flushes the bird. I knocked it down and both dogs are on it, still no retrieval but on it nonetheless.
At this point, with my weak shot I am used to ringing the birds neck. I put it in my game pocket in my vest and walk to meet a friend. after we meet up I keep thinking I am hearing a soft cluck. pay no attention..
10 minutes later while working a line of corn the little *censored* jumps out of my vest and takes off running! (luckily my friend is on the other side of the corn and can't see this)
I almost think about shooting it again but can't bring myself to shooting a bird on the ground. After a good chase I catch up with it. make it real dead this time and thats the end of that.
Shot comes tomorrow..
Post by: bracer40 on November 10, 2015, 07:59:40 AM
So a fun little anecdote while we wait:That's funny!
It is impossible to find 20 gauge steel 2 3/4 shot below 7 in the puget sound region...While I wait for Cabelas to deliver the hevimetal I ordered, I went out to a release site with my before mentioned dove shot.
Bruno, my GSP, is improving immensely: He is starting to understand why we are out in the field and what we are after, getting birdy and methodical. He goes on point(!) Lucy, my GSP/lab running amok accidentally(?) flushes the bird. I knocked it down and both dogs are on it, still no retrieval but on it nonetheless.
At this point, with my weak shot I am used to ringing the birds neck. I put it in my game pocket in my vest and walk to meet a friend. after we meet up I keep thinking I am hearing a soft cluck. pay no attention..
10 minutes later while working a line of corn the little *censored* jumps out of my vest and takes off running! (luckily my friend is on the other side of the corn and can't see this)
I almost think about shooting it again but can't bring myself to shooting a bird on the ground. After a good chase I catch up with it. make it real dead this time and thats the end of that.
Shot comes tomorrow..
Post by: ctwiggs1 on November 10, 2015, 08:03:08 AM
So a fun little anecdote while we wait:That's funny!
It is impossible to find 20 gauge steel 2 3/4 shot below 7 in the puget sound region...While I wait for Cabelas to deliver the hevimetal I ordered, I went out to a release site with my before mentioned dove shot.
Bruno, my GSP, is improving immensely: He is starting to understand why we are out in the field and what we are after, getting birdy and methodical. He goes on point(!) Lucy, my GSP/lab running amok accidentally(?) flushes the bird. I knocked it down and both dogs are on it, still no retrieval but on it nonetheless.
At this point, with my weak shot I am used to ringing the birds neck. I put it in my game pocket in my vest and walk to meet a friend. after we meet up I keep thinking I am hearing a soft cluck. pay no attention..
10 minutes later while working a line of corn the little *censored* jumps out of my vest and takes off running! (luckily my friend is on the other side of the corn and can't see this)
I almost think about shooting it again but can't bring myself to shooting a bird on the ground. After a good chase I catch up with it. make it real dead this time and thats the end of that.
Shot comes tomorrow..
Just glad to hear my Britt aint the only bird dog that doesn't retrieve!
Post by: bracer40 on November 10, 2015, 08:08:15 AM
That doesn't have to be a permanent conditition. My first Brit was a natural retriever. My 2nd wanted nothing to do with it. Then we trained him to retrieve. Way more fun to hunt over now.So a fun little anecdote while we wait:That's funny!
It is impossible to find 20 gauge steel 2 3/4 shot below 7 in the puget sound region...While I wait for Cabelas to deliver the hevimetal I ordered, I went out to a release site with my before mentioned dove shot.
Bruno, my GSP, is improving immensely: He is starting to understand why we are out in the field and what we are after, getting birdy and methodical. He goes on point(!) Lucy, my GSP/lab running amok accidentally(?) flushes the bird. I knocked it down and both dogs are on it, still no retrieval but on it nonetheless.
At this point, with my weak shot I am used to ringing the birds neck. I put it in my game pocket in my vest and walk to meet a friend. after we meet up I keep thinking I am hearing a soft cluck. pay no attention..
10 minutes later while working a line of corn the little *censored* jumps out of my vest and takes off running! (luckily my friend is on the other side of the corn and can't see this)
I almost think about shooting it again but can't bring myself to shooting a bird on the ground. After a good chase I catch up with it. make it real dead this time and thats the end of that.
Shot comes tomorrow..
Just glad to hear my Britt aint the only bird dog that doesn't retrieve!
Post by: ctwiggs1 on November 10, 2015, 08:20:16 AM
Post by: bracer40 on November 10, 2015, 08:26:58 AM