Losing birds

[Bill W]

Thanks everyone. I will get some 5 or 6 and report back.. too bad I bought a whole case of 7's! So used to shooting skeet that I figured I would need that many shells.

Any quail hunters looking for some non-toxic? real cheap! pm me  20 gauge  2 3/4

I forgot the release sites require steel.   Like everyone else says larger is needed when using steel.  For the senior hunt I used Kent Fasteel 5's in the short 20's.   All pheasants survived as they were not in the pattern.

[UplandJoe]

The Pheasant Release Sites require non-toxic shot; #7 steel is a dove load. Pheasants, even pen raised ones, can die hard. I suggest no less than #4 steel (the ballistic twin to #6 lead) or better yet #3 or #2 steel (#2 steel is the ballistic twin to #4 lead). Use a 3" shell in a gun with either IC or Mod. chokes; never use a FULL choked gun with steel shot due to the possibility of barrel damage.

If you have fixed FULL choked gun, get some Rio Bismuth or Kent Tungten Matrix. Both bismuth and tungsten matrix approximate lead density; so now the #6 or #5 shot sizes should be O.K. for pen raised birds.

Hope these suggests help.

Tom

Thanks for the insight!

I am using an old family Remington 1100 which has a 26" skeet barrel on it. Will I do any damage using a heavier steel shot load?

[T-Bone]

The Pheasant Release Sites require non-toxic shot; #7 steel is a dove load. Pheasants, even pen raised ones, can die hard. I suggest no less than #4 steel (the ballistic twin to #6 lead) or better yet #3 or #2 steel (#2 steel is the ballistic twin to #4 lead). Use a 3" shell in a gun with either IC or Mod. chokes; never use a FULL choked gun with steel shot due to the possibility of barrel damage.

If you have fixed FULL choked gun, get some Rio Bismuth or Kent Tungten Matrix. Both bismuth and tungsten matrix approximate lead density; so now the #6 or #5 shot sizes should be O.K. for pen raised birds.

Hope these suggests help.

Tom

Thanks for the insight!

I am using an old family Remington 1100 which has a 26" skeet barrel on it. Will I do any damage using a heavier steel shot load?

Your skeet choke is fine with the #4 - #2 steel. Is your gun chambered for 3" shells? If not, spending the extra $$$ on Hevishot in #5 or #6 does make sense. Hevishot is actually heavier/denser than lead.

Tom

[Old Dog]

I ended up ordering some Kent Ultimate Pheasant from Brownell's, because I couldn't find anything locally.

If I recall the Ultimate Upland stuff is FastLead.  Pheasant release sites require non-toxic shot.  So be careful with that...they will write tickets!

I may have gotten the name wrong, but it's the tungsten polymer shot.

[Ironhead]

Remington express extra long range 1300 fps, lead shot . 7.5 for chukar and quail 5's for pheasant. Best factory ammo I have used for upland.

[AspenBud]

Rookie question:
I have been hunting some of the release sites in Western Washington and on two occasions I have dropped a bird in relatively thick cover, with a reasonable sight on where it dropped only to completely lose it. My dogs (2) are more or less untrained... but do have noses and we just can't find the bird. (I have been training my lab/pointer with a dead bird and she usually finds it)

Just an additional thought. Are you training the dog to point or flush birds? Don't take this badly as I only say this to point out a possible problem, if the dog isn't pointing it may not be hunting as much as you think and instead be relying on chance encounters to create a flush. Release site birds can be easy pickings for a lot of dogs since they don't really know how to avoid predators. All dogs are not created equal.   

(My bet is still on your shot size)

[Labs07]

I would think that the birds may be running after shot.  You might think about doing some training with your dog on hand signals and whistle commands so you can direct your dog to where you believe the bird to be.  This helped my dog a ton.  Also could be that the dog is losing interest after the bird is down and maybe all it may takes is working the dog back through the area the bird went down in a few times.  I believe that when a bird is dead it just kind of drops out of the sky and so there is just the sent cone around the bird with nothing to track so the dog dang near needs to be right on top of it before he smells it.  Just my two cents.

[UplandJoe]

Rookie question:
I have been hunting some of the release sites in Western Washington and on two occasions I have dropped a bird in relatively thick cover, with a reasonable sight on where it dropped only to completely lose it. My dogs (2) are more or less untrained... but do have noses and we just can't find the bird. (I have been training my lab/pointer with a dead bird and she usually finds it)

Just an additional thought. Are you training the dog to point or flush birds? Don't take this badly as I only say this to point out a possible problem, if the dog isn't pointing it may not be hunting as much as you think and instead be relying on chance encounters to create a flush. Release site birds can be easy pickings for a lot of dogs since they don't really know how to avoid predators. All dogs are not created equal.   

(My bet is still on your shot size)

Oh I am well aware that we are not "hunting" in a traditional sense. My dogs (lab-pointer and GSP) were both adopted from shelters when they were 4 and 3 respectively. While they look like hunting dogs they have not had any formal training.

I have been working with the lab-pointer, Lucy, on retrieving. She is really good at finding dead birds and dummies and will bring them to me.
They both respond well to hand signals and calls or beeps from their collars but they don't really know what they are looking for.

Most of our flushes are accidental. Lucy will hunt a rodent to a squirrel to a tweety bird. Bruno, the GSP has been on point once, on a bronze statue of a chicken

I am using the Release sites as more of a training ground with live birds.  Hoping that once Bruno realizes he can't catch the bird He'll give me a point and enough positive reinforcement and experience will get Lucy to find and bring me back a dropped bird that hasn't been frozen.

As for what I can change quickly is the shot size, so I will work on that.

[wonder]

A lot of good info here.  My experience is that Steel just doesn't knock em down like lead.  If you were using lighter loads it's also true that you can't always bring those big bombers down unless you get a head shot or one in the engine room with a lighter load.  I would say #4 or #5 in Steel and outside of the drop sites #4 or #6's in lead and then you can reach out to those birds that may get up wild.

Good luck

[AspenBud]

Rookie question:
I have been hunting some of the release sites in Western Washington and on two occasions I have dropped a bird in relatively thick cover, with a reasonable sight on where it dropped only to completely lose it. My dogs (2) are more or less untrained... but do have noses and we just can't find the bird. (I have been training my lab/pointer with a dead bird and she usually finds it)

Just an additional thought. Are you training the dog to point or flush birds? Don't take this badly as I only say this to point out a possible problem, if the dog isn't pointing it may not be hunting as much as you think and instead be relying on chance encounters to create a flush. Release site birds can be easy pickings for a lot of dogs since they don't really know how to avoid predators. All dogs are not created equal.   

(My bet is still on your shot size)

Oh I am well aware that we are not "hunting" in a traditional sense. My dogs (lab-pointer and GSP) were both adopted from shelters when they were 4 and 3 respectively. While they look like hunting dogs they have not had any formal training.

I have been working with the lab-pointer, Lucy, on retrieving. She is really good at finding dead birds and dummies and will bring them to me.
They both respond well to hand signals and calls or beeps from their collars but they don't really know what they are looking for.

Most of our flushes are accidental. Lucy will hunt a rodent to a squirrel to a tweety bird. Bruno, the GSP has been on point once, on a bronze statue of a chicken

I am using the Release sites as more of a training ground with live birds.  Hoping that once Bruno realizes he can't catch the bird He'll give me a point and enough positive reinforcement and experience will get Lucy to find and bring me back a dropped bird that hasn't been frozen.

As for what I can change quickly is the shot size, so I will work on that.

If you're not doing it already, try dragging a bird to a location (make sure the dog is out of sight) and then send the dog in for a retrieve. With running birds like pheasant you want a dog to be able to track a little.

[RadSav]

I ended up ordering some Kent Ultimate Pheasant from Brownell's, because I couldn't find anything locally.

If I recall the Ultimate Upland stuff is FastLead.  Pheasant release sites require non-toxic shot.  So be careful with that...they will write tickets!

I may have gotten the name wrong, but it's the tungsten polymer shot.

If it is from Kent I think that is the Tungsten Matrix.  I've only shot one box of the stuff, but it worked pretty good!  Didn't seem to have the range the Hevi and HD stuff did.  But it is suppose to be a great choice for old barreled guns.  And is still WAY better than steel IMO.

I know two old guys at the release site that shoot nothing but that stuff in their old double guns.  I don't see them losing many birds.  They are running extremely good pointers though.  So I've never seen them really reach out for anything. 

[WSU]

They really aren't that hard to kill.  Any decent load of steel 2s through 4s will do fine IMO.  I can't see spending a bunch of money (unless your gun requires it) when steel works great.

[RadSav]

I really hate steel with a passion.  But one thing I have to admit...If your dogs are having a hard time picking up cripples steel isn't a bad thing to switch to until they catch on.  Nothing in my experience makes a bird bleed more than steel.  That could potentially help your dogs as much as putting the Hevi smack down.

[CP]

If you want them to bleed get some Blackcloud; it rips big gashes in them and leaves a bloody ragged corpse.

[Bullkllr]

Kent Fasteel #3s have been my go to pheasant load for a while. Reasonable price, do the job.