Post by: LDennis24 on December 07, 2015, 12:01:55 PM
Post by: ELKBURGER on December 07, 2015, 12:07:38 PM
Post by: grundy53 on December 07, 2015, 12:07:58 PM
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Post by: bobcat on December 07, 2015, 12:10:30 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 07, 2015, 12:13:45 PM
How do you know who was flying the helicopter? Apparently you're assuming it was the WDFW but I'm wondering why you think that? Can you post some of the pictures?I do wonder if a tail number was recorded and it can be shown who was doing this.
Post by: LDennis24 on December 07, 2015, 12:17:14 PM
Post by: Curly on December 07, 2015, 12:20:42 PM
Post by: lokidog on December 07, 2015, 12:24:48 PM
:bash:
Post by: HUNTaHOLIC5 on December 07, 2015, 12:25:57 PM
There is another thread on here somewhere of the same sort of thing happening. I'll see if I can find the thread.
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,186929.0.html
Post by: Rainier10 on December 07, 2015, 12:39:38 PM
There is another thread on here somewhere of the same sort of thing happening. I'll see if I can find the thread.
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,186929.0.html
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 07, 2015, 12:41:35 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on December 07, 2015, 01:02:54 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on December 07, 2015, 01:14:15 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on December 07, 2015, 01:19:33 PM
Post by: westside bull on December 07, 2015, 01:33:12 PM
Post by: boneaddict on December 07, 2015, 01:35:01 PM
Post by: seth30 on December 07, 2015, 01:39:17 PM
Post by: Mr Mykiss on December 07, 2015, 01:45:01 PM
Pretty much nailed them in that photo. Wow
It would appear that way but I'm afraid it will be a case of... "We were just flying around doing our mule deer surveys and out popped a herd of elk. We were flying lower at that moment because of XYZ. We understand the impression that might have been given to the hunters that took the photo but we assure you that XYZ. Sincerely, ___"
So yeah...a video would be nice but it might just elicit the same explanation.
Post by: LDennis24 on December 07, 2015, 01:51:15 PM
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on December 07, 2015, 01:57:10 PM
Post by: fish_hunter on December 07, 2015, 02:06:01 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on December 07, 2015, 05:24:38 PM
Post by: westside bull on December 07, 2015, 05:57:06 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on December 07, 2015, 06:04:21 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 07, 2015, 06:04:31 PM
Post by: bobcat on December 07, 2015, 06:17:22 PM
Post by: lamrith on December 07, 2015, 06:21:35 PM
One tip, maybe next time instead of pictures, see if you can grab video, it will take away ability to claim just taking pictures when you have video of them following you then you cnage direction and they chase elk you are heading toward...
Sorry your hunt got ruined, it is tough enough finding game half the time let alone having it run off.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on December 07, 2015, 06:31:41 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on December 07, 2015, 06:33:19 PM
Post by: Sumpnneedskillin on December 07, 2015, 07:04:21 PM
Post by: KFhunter on December 07, 2015, 07:31:20 PM
That Robinson belongs to Olympic Helicopters they do sub contract work for Northwest Helicopter. Game counts, relocations, fire work etc.
good info to have
Post by: YJ Guide Service on December 07, 2015, 07:45:33 PM
Post by: Westsideelkchaser on December 07, 2015, 11:23:40 PM
So the helicopter is being paid to count mule deer but instead they're following herds of elk around trying to get photographs? And our hunting license money is paying for this? :bash:
I was waiting for someone to say this haha good to know sportsmans money is spent well!
Post by: cem3434 on December 08, 2015, 12:13:03 AM
Post by: LDennis24 on December 08, 2015, 09:46:35 AM
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on December 08, 2015, 09:50:23 AM
Post by: luvtohnt on December 08, 2015, 10:04:58 AM
Brandon
Post by: Gringo31 on December 08, 2015, 10:19:25 AM
Because of the other things they have pulled, it's assumed this is intentional. I'd be upset as well....
Post by: frazierw on December 08, 2015, 10:31:19 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?
Brandon
pretty sure they just fly around and count the deer they see.
Post by: birddogdad on December 08, 2015, 10:40:51 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?
Brandon
if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..
generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...
Post by: LDennis24 on December 08, 2015, 10:45:17 AM
Post by: cbond3318 on December 08, 2015, 10:56:02 AM
Do I think they were specifically trying to thwart your hunt? not necessarily. do I think they knew you were hunting them, absolutely they just didn't care. I feel for ya, the fact of the matter is they just don't care about us.
Post by: luvtohnt on December 08, 2015, 11:02:10 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?
Brandon
pretty sure they just fly around and count the deer they see.
Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?
Brandon
if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..
generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...
Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.
The bigger issue is the lack of trust we have for the WDFW.
it's assumed this is intentional
I am curious as to what the general lack of trust comes from?
That is a dangerous statement, and assumptions like this are probably what is causing your distrust with the WDFW. I have spent countless hours volunteering with them just so I can learn how things are done within the organization. I just wish I could go on a flight with them!! (this is not directed at you Gringo just a general statement as many seem to assume this is intentional).
Post by: westside bull on December 08, 2015, 11:03:28 AM
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 08, 2015, 11:20:01 AM
1.) It costs thousands an hour to use a helicopter and they are flying when the helicopter is available for usage. Who cares if they were working on the weekend. Many biologists I know work odd schedules to adjust for the surveys they have to do. Sometimes there is a time line they have to follow to get surveys done. They don't care about hunting season. They have a job to do.
2.) They always do surveys this time of year on deer and elk as if they surveyed them in the summer, they wouldn't get a good count of the herds due to loss of animals from hunting.
3.) Sounds like they were counting wildlife which included deer and elk if they saw them. Wouldn't you want them to know how many elk are in the area to better manage for future hunting seasons?
Post by: luvtohnt on December 08, 2015, 11:22:39 AM
I read the article, which was good to see it will get some notice but, I believed it. They took the opportunity to survey ungulates in the area and collect data that was unrelated to their specific survey at the time but gathered data none the less. I think it is a true indication of the WDFW's lack of concern at all for hunters. They knew darn well someone was on those elk and they made the chose to swoop in and collect information on them. I would assume from the fairly steady platform in the Helo and binoculars they could have gotten that info from afar.
Do I think they were specifically trying to thwart your hunt? not necessarily. do I think they knew you were hunting them, absolutely they just didn't care. I feel for ya, the fact of the matter is they just don't care about us.
How is a person in a helicopter supposed to differentiate between an elk hunter or site seeing individual or local farmer (since it happened on private property) when the said person is driving in a truck? It could also be the case that they did not see the individual hunting as they were concentrating on counting the elk and looking for deer.
Brandon
Post by: LDennis24 on December 08, 2015, 11:24:46 AM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 08, 2015, 11:25:43 AM
I understand how the survey's are done and I understand the need to get them done whenever they can find time between weather and schedule conflicts with other season's and other survey's. It's not like you can cover the state in a chopper and get an accurate count of the animal's your surveying in a matter of a few days. However I was given a different explanation of what they were doing that day than Lander's was given and that show's that they are changing their story. Which means they are trying to cover their &%$! They weren't surveying elk, so why even interfere with the elk herd? Why did they tell me they simply photographed them and then went on there way when I saw them stay with the elk for over a mile? Along with other hunter's in the area? I heard that someone even called the sheriff's deparment about it! When I was following the elk no other hunter's were near that I could see and that to me mean's someone else saw them doing the same thing in a different area nearby. I was told they were merely taking photo's and then he started asking me questions related to elk statistic's and if I saw one with a collar. Sounded like they were collecting data on elk too.
Swooping in to photograph them is disturbing wildlife. If a civilian did the same thing, I believe they could be ticketed. Why stress them needlessly?
Post by: steelhead59 on December 08, 2015, 11:52:15 AM
Post by: grundy53 on December 08, 2015, 12:05:28 PM
The things that come up when I read this.It was a deer survey. Not elk.
1.) It costs thousands an hour to use a helicopter and they are flying when the helicopter is available for usage. Who cares if they were working on the weekend. Many biologists I know work odd schedules to adjust for the surveys they have to do. Sometimes there is a time line they have to follow to get surveys done. They don't care about hunting season. They have a job to do.
2.) They always do surveys this time of year on deer and elk as if they surveyed them in the summer, they wouldn't get a good count of the herds due to loss of animals from hunting.
3.) Sounds like they were counting wildlife which included deer and elk if they saw them. Wouldn't you want them to know how many elk are in the area to better manage for future hunting seasons?
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: lokidog on December 08, 2015, 02:40:18 PM
Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.
Quote from: birddogdad on Today at 10:40:51 AM
Quote from: luvtohnt on Today at 10:04:58 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?
Brandon
if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..
generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...
Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.
Your indoctrination to the dark side is complete..... :chuckle: JK, sort of.
Post by: 2labs on December 08, 2015, 02:44:37 PM
Post by: lokidog on December 08, 2015, 02:48:08 PM
Other than the fact that we are not in helicopters buzzing them, IDENTICAL. :rolleyes:
Post by: luvtohnt on December 08, 2015, 02:53:57 PM
Luv2hunt, you seem to be defending WDFW based on your experience in Wildlife Ecology, but then your own words show that WDFW was in the wrong by deviating from their grid pattern to chase these elk.
Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.
Quote from: birddogdad on Today at 10:40:51 AM
Quote from: luvtohnt on Today at 10:04:58 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?
Brandon
if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..
generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...
Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.
Your indoctrination to the dark side is complete..... :chuckle: JK, sort of.
Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my argument. Of course anything can be misconstrued when taken out of context or in this case explained improperly. :chuckle: A great example of why I should be working on my dissertation proposal instead of playing devil's advocate on here.
Maybe this will sum it up better. They are not able to leave the unit they are surveying as suggested by the OP. If they were to go this route they will have to start over. Small deviations to circle the group, or take photos to verify count are acceptable. Anytime you survey mobile species you have to have a consistent repeatable way to measure.
I have seen this on several occasions, and sometimes it does appear they are chasing as the elk will run in the direction of travel trying to escape the aerial assault.
"It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting."
Other than the fact that we are not in helicopters buzzing them, IDENTICAL. :rolleyes:
Just because Joe Smoe on the internet said so, IT MUST BE TRUE!! I am sure that anything flying lower than 1,000 feet over an elk could be construed as BUZZING, it all relative based on the observer.
Brandon
Post by: grundy53 on December 08, 2015, 02:58:42 PM
Except there are pictures...Luv2hunt, you seem to be defending WDFW based on your experience in Wildlife Ecology, but then your own words show that WDFW was in the wrong by deviating from their grid pattern to chase these elk.
Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.
Quote from: birddogdad on Today at 10:40:51 AM
Quote from: luvtohnt on Today at 10:04:58 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?
Brandon
if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..
generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...
Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.
Your indoctrination to the dark side is complete..... :chuckle: JK, sort of.
Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my argument. Of course anything can be misconstrued when taken out of context or in this case explained improperly. :chuckle: A great example of why I should be working on my dissertation proposal instead of playing devil's advocate on here.
Maybe this will sum it up better. They are not able to leave the unit they are surveying as suggested by the OP. If they were to go this route they will have to start over. Small deviations to circle the group, or take photos to verify count are acceptable. Anytime you survey mobile species you have to have a consistent repeatable way to measure.
I have seen this on several occasions, and sometimes it does appear they are chasing as the elk will run in the direction of travel trying to escape the aerial assault."It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting."
Other than the fact that we are not in helicopters buzzing them, IDENTICAL. :rolleyes:
Just because Joe Smoe on the internet said so, IT MUST BE TRUE!! I am sure that anything flying lower than 1,000 feet over an elk could be construed as BUZZING, it all relative based on the observer.
Brandon
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 08, 2015, 03:00:31 PM
Post by: luvtohnt on December 08, 2015, 03:04:19 PM
Except there are pictures...Luv2hunt, you seem to be defending WDFW based on your experience in Wildlife Ecology, but then your own words show that WDFW was in the wrong by deviating from their grid pattern to chase these elk.
Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.
Quote from: birddogdad on Today at 10:40:51 AM
Quote from: luvtohnt on Today at 10:04:58 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?
Brandon
if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..
generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...
Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.
Your indoctrination to the dark side is complete..... :chuckle: JK, sort of.
Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my argument. Of course anything can be misconstrued when taken out of context or in this case explained improperly. :chuckle: A great example of why I should be working on my dissertation proposal instead of playing devil's advocate on here.
Maybe this will sum it up better. They are not able to leave the unit they are surveying as suggested by the OP. If they were to go this route they will have to start over. Small deviations to circle the group, or take photos to verify count are acceptable. Anytime you survey mobile species you have to have a consistent repeatable way to measure.
I have seen this on several occasions, and sometimes it does appear they are chasing as the elk will run in the direction of travel trying to escape the aerial assault."It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting."
Other than the fact that we are not in helicopters buzzing them, IDENTICAL. :rolleyes:
Just because Joe Smoe on the internet said so, IT MUST BE TRUE!! I am sure that anything flying lower than 1,000 feet over an elk could be construed as BUZZING, it all relative based on the observer.
Brandon
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Yeah, pictures of WDFW surveying from a helicopter that's great, but I don't see evidence they were doing anything other than a prescribed survey.
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on December 08, 2015, 03:07:54 PM
Post by: 2labs on December 08, 2015, 03:09:43 PM
Above the law.
Post by: grundy53 on December 08, 2015, 03:11:53 PM
Except they were doing a deer count. Those don't look like deer to me.Except there are pictures...Luv2hunt, you seem to be defending WDFW based on your experience in Wildlife Ecology, but then your own words show that WDFW was in the wrong by deviating from their grid pattern to chase these elk.
Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.
Quote from: birddogdad on Today at 10:40:51 AM
Quote from: luvtohnt on Today at 10:04:58 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?
Brandon
if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..
generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...
Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.
Your indoctrination to the dark side is complete..... :chuckle: JK, sort of.
Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my argument. Of course anything can be misconstrued when taken out of context or in this case explained improperly. :chuckle: A great example of why I should be working on my dissertation proposal instead of playing devil's advocate on here.
Maybe this will sum it up better. They are not able to leave the unit they are surveying as suggested by the OP. If they were to go this route they will have to start over. Small deviations to circle the group, or take photos to verify count are acceptable. Anytime you survey mobile species you have to have a consistent repeatable way to measure.
I have seen this on several occasions, and sometimes it does appear they are chasing as the elk will run in the direction of travel trying to escape the aerial assault."It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting."
Other than the fact that we are not in helicopters buzzing them, IDENTICAL. :rolleyes:
Just because Joe Smoe on the internet said so, IT MUST BE TRUE!! I am sure that anything flying lower than 1,000 feet over an elk could be construed as BUZZING, it all relative based on the observer.
Brandon
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Yeah, pictures of WDFW surveying from a helicopter that's great, but I don't see evidence they were doing anything other than a prescribed survey.
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: luvtohnt on December 08, 2015, 03:14:37 PM
It appears they ran them a ways from the initial contact. How long does it take to get a picture and count 10 elk? Running them miles, across roads, in and out of different fields seems a little unnecessary unless the surveyor needed to change the batteries in his calculator or needed to sharpen his pencil.
... spotted them again on another ridge about 3/4 of a mile away.
In the original post he said 3/4 of a mile. That is a distance an elk can cover in just a few short minutes. Again elk will run in the direction of the flight path in an attempt to escape. It could also be that the chopper has to turn and head in the direction of the elk to continue it's proposed flight path, that part we may never know.
Brandon
Post by: luvtohnt on December 08, 2015, 03:16:48 PM
Except they were doing a deer count. Those don't look like deer to me.Except there are pictures...Luv2hunt, you seem to be defending WDFW based on your experience in Wildlife Ecology, but then your own words show that WDFW was in the wrong by deviating from their grid pattern to chase these elk.
Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.
Quote from: birddogdad on Today at 10:40:51 AM
Quote from: luvtohnt on Today at 10:04:58 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?
Brandon
if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..
generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...
Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.
Your indoctrination to the dark side is complete..... :chuckle: JK, sort of.
Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my argument. Of course anything can be misconstrued when taken out of context or in this case explained improperly. :chuckle: A great example of why I should be working on my dissertation proposal instead of playing devil's advocate on here.
Maybe this will sum it up better. They are not able to leave the unit they are surveying as suggested by the OP. If they were to go this route they will have to start over. Small deviations to circle the group, or take photos to verify count are acceptable. Anytime you survey mobile species you have to have a consistent repeatable way to measure.
I have seen this on several occasions, and sometimes it does appear they are chasing as the elk will run in the direction of travel trying to escape the aerial assault."It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting."
Other than the fact that we are not in helicopters buzzing them, IDENTICAL. :rolleyes:
Just because Joe Smoe on the internet said so, IT MUST BE TRUE!! I am sure that anything flying lower than 1,000 feet over an elk could be construed as BUZZING, it all relative based on the observer.
Brandon
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Yeah, pictures of WDFW surveying from a helicopter that's great, but I don't see evidence they were doing anything other than a prescribed survey.
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Did you read the article? They will survey any ungulates seen on the flight path. If you are not seeing deer then why not gather info on elk. Would you rather they fly the same transects TWICE? That would be a waste of money!!
Brandon
Post by: westside bull on December 08, 2015, 03:23:26 PM
Post by: Humptulips on December 08, 2015, 03:33:49 PM
Post by: luvtohnt on December 08, 2015, 03:34:26 PM
There's a hunting season going on for elk leave them alone when people are hunting them are u the Bio or what?
No I am not the biologist. Once again if you read the article you will see there is good justification for survey's during this time of year. You have to perform the survey's in order to assess the population and make decisions about harvest goals. This is all part of proper management, and the WDFW will never win. Damed if you do and damed if you don't!!
Brandon
Post by: luvtohnt on December 08, 2015, 03:35:35 PM
Brandon
Post by: LDennis24 on December 08, 2015, 03:37:44 PM
Your trying to sound like you know what your talking about but all I'm hearing is BLAH BLAH BLAH...Except they were doing a deer count. Those don't look like deer to me.Except there are pictures...Luv2hunt, you seem to be defending WDFW based on your experience in Wildlife Ecology, but then your own words show that WDFW was in the wrong by deviating from their grid pattern to chase these elk.
Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.
Quote from: birddogdad on Today at 10:40:51 AM
Quote from: luvtohnt on Today at 10:04:58 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?
Brandon
if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..
generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...
Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.
Your indoctrination to the dark side is complete..... :chuckle: JK, sort of.
Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my argument. Of course anything can be misconstrued when taken out of context or in this case explained improperly. :chuckle: A great example of why I should be working on my dissertation proposal instead of playing devil's advocate on here.
Maybe this will sum it up better. They are not able to leave the unit they are surveying as suggested by the OP. If they were to go this route they will have to start over. Small deviations to circle the group, or take photos to verify count are acceptable. Anytime you survey mobile species you have to have a consistent repeatable way to measure.
I have seen this on several occasions, and sometimes it does appear they are chasing as the elk will run in the direction of travel trying to escape the aerial assault."It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting."
Other than the fact that we are not in helicopters buzzing them, IDENTICAL. :rolleyes:
Just because Joe Smoe on the internet said so, IT MUST BE TRUE!! I am sure that anything flying lower than 1,000 feet over an elk could be construed as BUZZING, it all relative based on the observer.
Brandon
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Yeah, pictures of WDFW surveying from a helicopter that's great, but I don't see evidence they were doing anything other than a prescribed survey.
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Did you read the article? They will survey any ungulates seen on the flight path. If you are not seeing deer then why not gather info on elk. Would you rather they fly the same transects TWICE? That would be a waste of money!!
Brandon
Post by: Jonathan_S on December 08, 2015, 03:46:28 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on December 08, 2015, 03:58:35 PM
Post by: 2labs on December 08, 2015, 04:07:01 PM
If your native you just get a ticket for damaging the "Fauna" take two what the heck :dunno:
Post by: luvtohnt on December 08, 2015, 04:48:03 PM
First of all I never said they left the unit they were surveying. Second of all when I talked to the bio on the phone he said they "were not" counting elk and that all they did was take a quick picture and continued on their survey. That is not what he told Lander's, if you read the article, and not what I saw. I was there, you were not. Third, they doubled back and circled us then they circled the elk and followed them in a North to South direction. Not East to West which is how they were doing the survey. You must be friends with him or something.Your trying to sound like you know what your talking about but all I'm hearing is BLAH BLAH BLAH...Except they were doing a deer count. Those don't look like deer to me.Except there are pictures...Luv2hunt, you seem to be defending WDFW based on your experience in Wildlife Ecology, but then your own words show that WDFW was in the wrong by deviating from their grid pattern to chase these elk.
Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.
Quote from: birddogdad on Today at 10:40:51 AM
Quote from: luvtohnt on Today at 10:04:58 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?
Brandon
if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..
generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...
Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.
Your indoctrination to the dark side is complete..... :chuckle: JK, sort of.
Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my argument. Of course anything can be misconstrued when taken out of context or in this case explained improperly. :chuckle: A great example of why I should be working on my dissertation proposal instead of playing devil's advocate on here.
Maybe this will sum it up better. They are not able to leave the unit they are surveying as suggested by the OP. If they were to go this route they will have to start over. Small deviations to circle the group, or take photos to verify count are acceptable. Anytime you survey mobile species you have to have a consistent repeatable way to measure.
I have seen this on several occasions, and sometimes it does appear they are chasing as the elk will run in the direction of travel trying to escape the aerial assault."It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting."
Other than the fact that we are not in helicopters buzzing them, IDENTICAL. :rolleyes:
Just because Joe Smoe on the internet said so, IT MUST BE TRUE!! I am sure that anything flying lower than 1,000 feet over an elk could be construed as BUZZING, it all relative based on the observer.
Brandon
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Yeah, pictures of WDFW surveying from a helicopter that's great, but I don't see evidence they were doing anything other than a prescribed survey.
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Did you read the article? They will survey any ungulates seen on the flight path. If you are not seeing deer then why not gather info on elk. Would you rather they fly the same transects TWICE? That would be a waste of money!!
Brandon
I am well aware you never said that elkinrutdrivemenuts assumed someone went many miles. I was correcting his statement.
Occasionally it would be nice to see people showing respect for someone trying to do the job they are being paid to do. I am truly sorry that your hunt was interrupted, and you may not be able to harvest an elk. I hope your season next year is not interrupted and you are able to harvest an elk. :tup:
As I stated earlier I am simply here to play devil's advocate as I have no vested interest in this.
Brandon
Post by: bigtex on December 08, 2015, 04:55:37 PM
I actually made a call 2 yrs ago when I witnessed some guys shoot an elk on private ground and knew the landowner didnt allow hunting and the LEO arrived in camo and an unmarked vehicle and drove by the crime as they were loading the elk and pretended to be a curious hunter. They told him they just shot it on the private ground and not wanting to blow his cover he sent another warden to the hunter's home to wait for him and write him a violation. They fined him for tresspassing for something around $120. That's ridiculous! That's cheaper than driving to the blue's for an elk! No punishment there...Trespass isn't a ticket with a fine on it. If your charged with trespass you must be arraigned in court before a judge.
Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on December 08, 2015, 05:05:46 PM
Ok fine,they pushed them through across a road and through a few different pieces of land. Who knows how far those elk actually ran. Chasing the animals is not in their best interest or good management.First of all I never said they left the unit they were surveying. Second of all when I talked to the bio on the phone he said they "were not" counting elk and that all they did was take a quick picture and continued on their survey. That is not what he told Lander's, if you read the article, and not what I saw. I was there, you were not. Third, they doubled back and circled us then they circled the elk and followed them in a North to South direction. Not East to West which is how they were doing the survey. You must be friends with him or something.Your trying to sound like you know what your talking about but all I'm hearing is BLAH BLAH BLAH...Except they were doing a deer count. Those don't look like deer to me.Except there are pictures...Luv2hunt, you seem to be defending WDFW based on your experience in Wildlife Ecology, but then your own words show that WDFW was in the wrong by deviating from their grid pattern to chase these elk.
Generally a grid pattern is required to get an accurate count. It is not just flying around at their discretion.
Quote from: birddogdad on Today at 10:40:51 AM
Quote from: luvtohnt on Today at 10:04:58 AM
Is anyone in this thread aware of how a helicopter survey fro deer is done?
Brandon
if they are surveying DEER, why were they counting and documenting the ELK?? sounds a bit off.. also I don't buy the "cant do it out of hunting season" angle of the response..
generally, the reply demonstrates a lack of care for interaction with hunters based on some needed data collection.. lots of area in the grid and could have returned to this spot later once identified hunters there... survey during a season and direct impact of anyone on the ground is just bad form...
Once you start if you break the pattern you will have to re-survey the entire area over. As a participant in the funding of WDFW I would much rather they disrupt a few hunters then re-spend thousands of dollars to re-survey an area! Not to mention they take aerial photos of species they are not surveying quite often. It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting.
Your indoctrination to the dark side is complete..... :chuckle: JK, sort of.
Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my argument. Of course anything can be misconstrued when taken out of context or in this case explained improperly. :chuckle: A great example of why I should be working on my dissertation proposal instead of playing devil's advocate on here.
Maybe this will sum it up better. They are not able to leave the unit they are surveying as suggested by the OP. If they were to go this route they will have to start over. Small deviations to circle the group, or take photos to verify count are acceptable. Anytime you survey mobile species you have to have a consistent repeatable way to measure.
I have seen this on several occasions, and sometimes it does appear they are chasing as the elk will run in the direction of travel trying to escape the aerial assault."It is no different than you or I taking a picture of an elk while deer hunting."
Other than the fact that we are not in helicopters buzzing them, IDENTICAL. :rolleyes:
Just because Joe Smoe on the internet said so, IT MUST BE TRUE!! I am sure that anything flying lower than 1,000 feet over an elk could be construed as BUZZING, it all relative based on the observer.
Brandon
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Yeah, pictures of WDFW surveying from a helicopter that's great, but I don't see evidence they were doing anything other than a prescribed survey.
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Did you read the article? They will survey any ungulates seen on the flight path. If you are not seeing deer then why not gather info on elk. Would you rather they fly the same transects TWICE? That would be a waste of money!!
Brandon
I am well aware you never said that elkinrutdrivemenuts assumed someone went many miles. I was correcting his statement.
Occasionally it would be nice to see people showing respect for someone trying to do the job they are being paid to do. I am truly sorry that your hunt was interrupted, and you may not be able to harvest an elk. I hope your season next year is not interrupted and you are able to harvest an elk. :tup:
As I stated earlier I am simply here to play devil's advocate as I have no vested interest in this.
Brandon
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Post by: elkinrutdrivemenuts on December 08, 2015, 05:07:27 PM
I think after all this I'm just gonna go to Ellensburg with a box of apples and try my hand at one of those field elk that will walk right into my horse trailer! :chuckle: To me this was about them saying one thing and doing another and not getting straight answer's. It shouldn't be that I have to make a big stink to get an explaination for why it happened this way and then find out they told someone else a different story...Come to Idaho, no helicopters here and you can actually shoot a branch antlered bull elk with a rifle! It's weird at first,but you get used to it, I have!
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Post by: idahohuntr on December 08, 2015, 05:38:20 PM
I think after all this I'm just gonna go to Ellensburg with a box of apples and try my hand at one of those field elk that will walk right into my horse trailer! :chuckle: To me this was about them saying one thing and doing another and not getting straight answer's. It shouldn't be that I have to make a big stink to get an explaination for why it happened this way and then find out they told someone else a different story...I'm sure they used the money from that auction tag to pay for the extra helicopter time to fly around and take photos of elk. :chuckle: :sry:
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Post by: lokidog on December 08, 2015, 05:52:58 PM
I think after all this I'm just gonna go to Ellensburg with a box of apples and try my hand at one of those field elk that will walk right into my horse trailer! :chuckle: To me this was about them saying one thing and doing another and not getting straight answer's. It shouldn't be that I have to make a big stink to get an explaination for why it happened this way and then find out they told someone else a different story...Come to Idaho, no helicopters here and you can actually shoot a branch antlered bull elk with a rifle! It's weird at first,but you get used to it, I have!
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When do we leave? :chuckle:
And, Ha ha idahohuntr....
Post by: LDennis24 on December 08, 2015, 06:43:00 PM
I understand that,Tex. What I meant was, that was the ridiculous explanation I was given.I actually made a call 2 yrs ago when I witnessed some guys shoot an elk on private ground and knew the landowner didnt allow hunting and the LEO arrived in camo and an unmarked vehicle and drove by the crime as they were loading the elk and pretended to be a curious hunter. They told him they just shot it on the private ground and not wanting to blow his cover he sent another warden to the hunter's home to wait for him and write him a violation. They fined him for tresspassing for something around $120. That's ridiculous! That's cheaper than driving to the blue's for an elk! No punishment there...Trespass isn't a ticket with a fine on it. If your charged with trespass you must be arraigned in court before a judge.
The game warden who hunt's at my brother's house saw the article and he said he doesn't blame me for being pissed off. My dad got several reports from people who said they saw 2, yes 2, helicopter's running the large herd of elk that was in the area a week earlier, back to Turnbull. One group of guys saw them doing it about 8 miles south of the lake and the others saw it happening North of the lake. I have lived around Cheney most of my life and have heard over and over again that if too many elk leave the refuge they will push them back to Turnbull. Well guess what, Lander's also wrote a piece recently about elk numbers being down on Turnbull. Coincidence? :dunno:
Post by: SeatoSummit88 on December 09, 2015, 08:20:07 AM
I am no expert when it comes to WDFW surveys and data reports, but when I was studying Fish and Wildlife Management in College at Montana State, our surveys on elk, moose and bear populations were conducted outside of hunting seasons (that is if the area was hunting permitted). A lot of studies are done in protected federal lands and units that are closed. However herd/group/individual counts are ever-so important in order to increase success rates of future offspring and overall balance of that region.
It would seem as though counting wildlife should be done well before hunters begin to encroach on the targeted species. It takes only a couple of people to disrupt normal patterned behavior. Collecting data and researching is not something that should be done when hunters are already pushing game. I would believe a strong count could be taken a couple of weeks before the first season begins, then intermittently between seasons, and again after all seasons have been closed. It is too bad you were unexpectedly surrounded by a helicopter during your hunt. I have been out when tree surveyors were doing tests and surveys on foot, and that itself irritated me, because I was the said hunter! good luck to you
Post by: LDennis24 on December 09, 2015, 06:08:19 PM
Post by: lokidog on December 09, 2015, 06:20:59 PM
The problem I could see with drones is that they are somewhat limited in their range from the operator, so in a roadless area, they might not be able to cover it completely.
Post by: Ridgeratt on December 09, 2015, 07:24:40 PM
Post by: VarmintVentilator on December 10, 2015, 01:39:06 PM
Post by: grade-creek-rd on December 11, 2015, 12:02:01 PM
The government pays for stuff all the time, like tow bills when the tow was not legal to do...this Bio was not supposed to fly over the elk and in doing so took away your opportunity...this might be one way to get an internal memo inside the WDFW about policies...I know where I work that if I go outside policy I get into trouble...
Oh, and of course, everyone has learned now to use the video feature on our phones instead of just taking a photo...could you image if you posted a video on facebook showing the helicoptor and how low it was and chasing/harrasing the elk...heck, I bet PETA would have even got involved if the elk looked tired!
Winter stress on wildlife...not a good idea!
Grade
Post by: buglebrush on December 14, 2015, 09:00:48 AM