Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: Hot Lunch on January 01, 2016, 03:56:08 PM

Title: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: Hot Lunch on January 01, 2016, 03:56:08 PM: I spent a couple days afield this year in Wa for elk and some friends gave me a heads up about knowing the difference between a true spike and spike depending on what unit I was hunting.

I under the law, but have no idea what the purpose is? Anyone know why WA has true spike regulations in some units?
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on January 01, 2016, 04:47:30 PM: Because its a screwed up state political wise.....
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: coachcw on January 01, 2016, 04:56:27 PM: In a nutshell 70 % of spies are true spikes. That would eliminate 30 % from harvest exception from data is about 50 % of them will get shot any way so in the long run it saves about ten elk from being shot if you look at a unit like 38 where 15 to 20 true spikes a year are harvested . Pretty much complete crap . Limiting the number of branched bull permits is the single best way to grow big bulls .
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: nwwanderer on January 01, 2016, 04:57:16 PM: To increase the number of branch antlered bulls, someone told them that would be a good idea. Generally I agree. Not that simple though. Long before the spike only rules it was possible to see more than a hundred calves with a hundred cows, twinning was pretty common. Not that those numbers are normal, I have only seen it a couple of times in more than 40 years watching, none in the last 15 or 20 years. Cats were hound hunted, bears were taken in higher numbers and wolves were rare at best. This last weekend I watched at least eight branch antlered bulls and saw a total of five antlerless, three cows and two calves. One of the local elk watchers claimed 40 or 50 branch antlered bulls are wintering close by. I would not be surprised. His total cow count was about 20. The branch antler kill is by draw or big money only. Cow permits still exist by draw in this area.
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on January 01, 2016, 04:59:06 PM: To drive spike hunters crazy seeing all those big Bulls while chasing spikes around the hills. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: hughjorgan on January 01, 2016, 05:20:51 PM: The yakamas complained about not having enough branch antler Bulls to shoot and show off at the local sports men's shows...

:stirthepot:
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: PlateauNDN on January 02, 2016, 01:00:50 PM: :yeah: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on January 02, 2016, 02:24:44 PM: In theory, to increase yearling bull escapement and increase numbers of branched antler bulls while maintaining OTC license sales.
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: cooltimber on January 02, 2016, 03:31:59 PM: doublelung
Ive thought that for yr's.Thats why i don't hunt in those areas.escapement is paramount.They need more breeding bulls.
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2016, 03:58:14 PM: It would be lovely to see the harvest statistics from the Yakamas. Oh ya, there aren't any. So you either have to have big money, aka.... gov tag money, be really really lucky, or be enrolled. I think thats 1/8 now, or is it 1/16? In other words, it's what doublelung said, but really just turned the area into a tribal bonanza. Lol
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: Hot Lunch on January 02, 2016, 04:01:03 PM: Excellent point Bone and thanks for shedding some light on this for me DOUBLELUNG. During the big game meetings does this issue ever get brought up that we are essentially creating extra opportunities for our co-managers??
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: HUNTaHOLIC5 on January 02, 2016, 04:07:23 PM: I thinks it's 1/4 bone.
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: PlateauNDN on January 02, 2016, 04:11:46 PM: It is a good point and a valid one. Honestly, why not make it 3 pt minimum or eliminate the true spike. I hike to where I want bulls so I'm good. Also, blood quantum is still 1/4 for us Yakama though I imagine it's reducing for some of the Westside tribes, such as the Mucks and Puyallups. :chuckle:

Or how about less roads? Eliminate the spur roads/side roads and keep the main roads for more escapement?
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2016, 04:18:11 PM: I heard two were shot on the highway outside of Naches this morning, so not sure the elimination of roads is the answer, though it does slow it down some this time of year. Right now its wanton slaughter on the winter range. Not impressed. At least the colvilles and the mucks know enough to pull the plug on Dec 31st.

Ya Plat, that Muck I sent you a pic of hunting looked lighter than me. LOL
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: coachcw on January 02, 2016, 04:40:04 PM: Tag system period.if the yaks got one tag that was open year round I'd be OK with it . Take the one you want and be done . No reason a deer and elk per adult wouldn't be enough for a familly. Heck throw a wild horse in too.
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: PlateauNDN on January 02, 2016, 04:44:27 PM: Quote from: coachcw on January 02, 2016, 04:40:04 PM
Tag system period.if the yaks got one tag that was open year round I'd be OK with it . Take the one you want and be done . No reason a deer and elk per adult wouldn't be enough for a familly. Heck throw a wild horse in too.

Blasphemy! My 2 baby girls eat thru an elk themselves. I fight them for seconds. :chuckle: I would honestly support 2 male per species sept 1 thru dec 31. and females no limit same time period. Ceremonial hunts limited to females species.
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: coachcw on January 02, 2016, 04:49:36 PM: Quote from: PlateauNDN on January 02, 2016, 04:44:27 PM
Quote from: coachcw on January 02, 2016, 04:40:04 PM
Tag system period.if the yaks got one tag that was open year round I'd be OK with it . Take the one you want and be done . No reason a deer and elk per adult wouldn't be enough for a familly. Heck throw a wild horse in too.

Blasphemy! My 2 baby girls eat thru an elk themselves. I fight them for seconds. :chuckle: I would honestly support 2 male per species sept 1 thru dec 31. and females no limit same time period. Ceremonial hunts limited to females species.
I bet you would ....... I can't say I'd be any different in giving in on any rights I had ..... the difference is some Indians pull the trigger plat .... gotta be a happy spot between one and twenty seven bulls.
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: PlateauNDN on January 02, 2016, 05:04:05 PM: Quote from: coachcw on January 02, 2016, 04:49:36 PM
Quote from: PlateauNDN on January 02, 2016, 04:44:27 PM
Quote from: coachcw on January 02, 2016, 04:40:04 PM
Tag system period.if the yaks got one tag that was open year round I'd be OK with it . Take the one you want and be done . No reason a deer and elk per adult wouldn't be enough for a familly. Heck throw a wild horse in too.

Blasphemy! My 2 baby girls eat thru an elk themselves. I fight them for seconds. :chuckle: I would honestly support 2 male per species sept 1 thru dec 31. and females no limit same time period. Ceremonial hunts limited to females species.
I bet you would ....... I can't say I'd be any different in giving in on any rights I had ..... the difference is some Indians pull the trigger plat .... gotta be a happy spot between one and twenty seven bulls.

I know Coach, it's not a question of giving up rights but regulating them. My argument to our officials has been that if there's seasons and regulations for salmon and other anadronomous fish the why not big game as well.

There's less big game numbers then fish but yet we allow the unregulated harvesting of them? We regulate moose, big horn sheep and mountain goats but not deer or elk?

Again, I'm not saying give up rights but regulate the harvest numbers to allow sustainability of the herds.

Self-control isn't difficult.
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: danderson on January 02, 2016, 05:20:46 PM: The reason for the true spike rule has been discussed in prior threads, well documented and debated with lots of good points from all sides, not sure if sound game management can influence the bull to cow ratio when out side influences effect there goals, I know for a fact that more deer and elk get killed on the roads between Easton and Ellensburg annually than get harvested legally by hunting, throw in tribal harvest, poaching, miss-identification, depredation from predators, Bigfoot, aliens-its a very complicated issue
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: bobcat on January 02, 2016, 05:30:57 PM: It should be an any bull season with a limit on the number harvested either by limited permits or a quota. But yes, in addition to that there needs to also be a limit to how many the tribal hunters can take.

Plat said a limit of two Bulls would be good, and I'd be fine with that. But I definitely don't agree with no limit on cows.

I couldn't disagree more with the spike only rule. Dumbest thing ever. If it's such a good management strategy then let's go to spike only for mule deer.
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: coachcw on January 02, 2016, 05:35:36 PM: Some times it's too simple to accomplish. As far as I know the Yakima tribe get fifty percent of the harvest in there ceded lands . Now the problem with this is there is no limit on spikes or three point bucks therfore no way of knowing what fifty percent may be. Simple use harvest data to allocate a real number to go by ..... say 200 elk get killed the next season allow 200 triple harvests. Let the Yakima allocate a number of those tags to other tribes in a manner they see fit . Every elk and deer gets tagged . I feel this number would be reasonable and the department of game could set seasons and limits with real data and a partnership with the tribe. The tribe could had out the tags as needed and my bet is one member wouldn't shoot 27 bulls in a season .
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: boneaddict on January 03, 2016, 05:02:50 AM: Definitely getting closer coach. I believe the colvilles are one elk per member per year. That's perfect. I also like their season close dates. I don't think animals should be hunted after December 31st. Give em a break. Its kind of hard to manange any wildlife if you don't have any data. Coach has some good ideas. Get a tag and turn it in. Not sure why its so far fetched for the Yaks to self regulate and participate in sound management. The colvilles are set up very similar and have a great game management program. Sometimes I think they overharvest a bit, but they flex or at least make an attempt to.
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: matt509 on January 05, 2016, 10:09:51 AM: The tribal hunters should be allowed to do whatever they want whenever they want on reservation land. If they intend to harvest off the reservation, they should be required to do so in a more primitive manner, similar to the way their elders did. It should be limited to archery. The ancestors never had rifles/optics combinations that were capable of long range shots.
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on January 05, 2016, 01:43:22 PM: Quote from: Hot Lunch on January 02, 2016, 04:01:03 PM
Excellent point Bone and thanks for shedding some light on this for me DOUBLELUNG. During the big game meetings does this issue ever get brought up that we are essentially creating extra opportunities for our co-managers??
Oh yes, and sometimes rather heatedly. I think any restrictions on tribal harvest other than as imposed by the tribal councils is a non-starter, just my opinion. The only real, actionable option is less motorized access on public lands.
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: HUNTaHOLIC5 on January 05, 2016, 01:58:28 PM: Quote from: matt509 on January 05, 2016, 10:09:51 AM
The tribal hunters should be allowed to do whatever they want whenever they want on reservation land. If they intend to harvest off the reservation, they should be required to do so in a more primitive manner, similar to the way their elders did. It should be limited to archery. The ancestors never had rifles/optics combinations that were capable of long range shots.
So you would agree with anti gunners that the second amendment doesn't apply to modern weapons amd it only protects weapons in that era? I'm sure you don't but it's the same thing.
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: Fl0und3rz on January 05, 2016, 02:09:20 PM: $
Title: Re: Purpose of true spike units?
Post by: steeleywhopper on January 05, 2016, 02:12:02 PM: True Spike was put into effect to make me switch to West Side Archery. I am officially converting to West Side elk hunting as of 2016.