Post by: huntnfmly on January 12, 2016, 10:56:54 AM
Thanks
Jim
Post by: Bob33 on January 12, 2016, 11:06:49 AM
You could lose in the neighborhood of 150 feet per second or more with a shorter barrel. Less velocity means less energy. It is true that less energy tends to make a bullet less effective (everything else being equal) but to conclude it is “not effective” would be misleading.
Post by: huntnfmly on January 12, 2016, 11:32:26 AM
Where we hunt there's alot of black bear sign.I really like the size of the smaller barrel.I figured I could use .38 loads for home and hardcast .357 loads to carry in the woods
Post by: bobcat on January 12, 2016, 11:52:03 AM
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 12, 2016, 12:05:30 PM
Post by: magnanimous_j on January 12, 2016, 12:14:05 PM
Post by: thinkingman on January 12, 2016, 12:56:13 PM
It's what I carry in my 6" SW 386.
357Mag was just too violent out of that revolver.
357Mag out of anything less than 4" is pointless.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=291%3Fballistics101.com (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=291%3Fballistics101.com)
You won't find these in any store.
Your LGS will have to order them for you.
Post by: b23 on January 12, 2016, 01:19:31 PM
If you want to go REAL big, S&W has their 500 magnum in a 2 1/2 inch version. :tup:
Good lord, those things must be brutal to shoot, with such a short barrel. :yike:
Post by: theleo on January 12, 2016, 01:47:29 PM
Post by: Yondering on January 12, 2016, 02:42:21 PM
I'm looking at buying a ruger sp101 .357 with a 2 1/4 in. Barrel for a in the woods gun for predator protection. My question do I lose too much velocity compared to the 4in barrel to make it effective?
Thanks
Jim
Performance out of that with hot 158gr loads is almost exactly the same as a little compact 40 S&W with 165gr bullets, both doing right about 1100 fps according to my chrono. That was with a 2-1/4" SP101 and a Kahr CW40.
The SP101 was noticeably louder and harder to hit things with though.
Post by: huntnfmly on January 12, 2016, 03:26:44 PM
Post by: Bofire on January 12, 2016, 04:09:50 PM
in my memory. The 4 inch was much less than the 6 inch also. over 6 inch did not make much difference.. In a 357 I think a 4 inch is about the optimum for a holster carry gun. The model 60 S&W 357 in 5 shot and 3 inch would be cool for your use. Do not forget the 180 grain hardcast bullet for big stuff.
Carl
Post by: Bob33 on January 12, 2016, 04:12:10 PM
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 12, 2016, 08:03:26 PM
I'm glad the majority here aren't on my left or right!
Post by: Chad E. on January 12, 2016, 08:08:36 PM
For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
I'm glad the majority here aren't on my left or right!
Practical ballistics. ..I love it
Post by: thinkingman on January 12, 2016, 08:10:42 PM
For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
I'm glad the majority here aren't on my left or right!
You first.
Stay out unless you have something intelligent to add.
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 12, 2016, 08:11:41 PM
For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
I'm glad the majority here aren't on my left or right!
Practical ballistics. ..I love it
Real world... No drama...
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 12, 2016, 08:14:10 PM
For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
I'm glad the majority here aren't on my left or right!
You first.
Stay out unless you have something intelligent to add.
Keep reading :)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2F123834113_de6c90ee49_zps119ec456.jpg&hash=750de6cfa7a7838eb4cce2554a9721c8324e3d52) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/landonmoses/media/123834113_de6c90ee49_zps119ec456.jpg.html)
Post by: theleo on January 12, 2016, 09:26:51 PM
For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.I guess I don't see your point. By the same logic a 32 magnum is good if you're worried about dealing with black bears.
I'm glad the majority here aren't on my left or right!
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 12, 2016, 09:46:06 PM
For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.I guess I don't see your point. By the same logic a 32 magnum is good if you're worried about dealing with black bears.
I'm glad the majority here aren't on my left or right!
Washington State black bears are wusses and two legged varmints are even softer.
Post by: mountainman on January 12, 2016, 09:48:26 PM
Post by: theleo on January 12, 2016, 09:50:35 PM
Black bears a wusses until you have a black fuzz ball shooting up a tree out of the brush a few yards from you. Mama bear won't be far away and will be more than happy to rearrange your blood vessels.For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.I guess I don't see your point. By the same logic a 32 magnum is good if you're worried about dealing with black bears.
I'm glad the majority here aren't on my left or right!
Washington State black bears are wusses and two legged varmints are even softer.
Post by: j_h_nimrod on January 12, 2016, 10:07:25 PM
Out of curiosity, has anyone on here ever actually had to defend themselves from an imminent or actual attack? I've known a lot of people to get pretty worked up because there is bear sign in an area but I have never really worried about it, I almost always go armed but am more worried about scumbags than bears or other wild animals.
Teacherman - maybe things have changed but my experience with Buffalo Bore has been the worst of any ammunition I have ever experienced. I have personally handled three firearms their ammo has destroyed and helped drive out two slugged barrels from their ammo. I know they have some blistering velocity and good bullet choice but I would personally never use it again.
I had the short barreled 500 S&W for a number of years and it was quite the handful. I learned quickly that when shooting full horsepower loads that if I wanted to save the skin on the web of my palm I should put a little oil on the backstrap so it didn't peel it off. Great gun though, I liked mine a lot but it was just too much overkill.
Post by: j_h_nimrod on January 12, 2016, 10:12:08 PM
Black bears a wusses until you have a black fuzz ball shooting up a tree out of the brush a few yards from you. Mama bear won't be far away and will be more than happy to rearrange your blood vessels.For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.I guess I don't see your point. By the same logic a 32 magnum is good if you're worried about dealing with black bears.
I'm glad the majority here aren't on my left or right!
Washington State black bears are wusses and two legged varmints are even softer.
Brown bear, likely yes. But in my experience blackies are much less maternal. While hunting and guiding in the fall in SE Alaska I have been around numerous mama black bears and they usually climb the tree with their cubs or head out to come back later.
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 12, 2016, 10:44:40 PM
Post by: b23 on January 12, 2016, 11:07:22 PM
I had the short barreled 500 S&W for a number of years and it was quite the handful. I learned quickly that when shooting full horsepower loads that if I wanted to save the skin on the web of my palm I should put a little oil on the backstrap so it didn't peel it off. Great gun though, I liked mine a lot but it was just too much overkill.
Did you have the 2 1/2 500? I've got the 4in. 500 and it's a handful, I could only imagine what the snubby version would be like. One thing about it, if you can't get it done with your five shots you can always club them to death with it because these things are pretty heavy.
Post by: j_h_nimrod on January 12, 2016, 11:14:26 PM
Post by: mountainman on January 13, 2016, 07:37:01 AM
Post by: boneaddict on January 13, 2016, 08:42:40 AM
Quote
Out of curiosity, has anyone on here ever actually had to defend themselves from an imminent or actual attack? I've known a lot of people to get pretty worked up because there is bear sign in an area but I have never really worried about it, I almost always go armed but am more worried about scumbags than bears or other wild animals.
Yes, I got attacked once. A big boar. Charged, stuck a round in his chest at about 10 feet and closing faster than you can ever imagine. 30-30 round single through a contender. Bear had enough velocity after the shotto hit me and knock me down. When he hit me, I went rolling down a steep bank, my hat came off my head. He pounced on it. When I stopped rolling, I hat another round chambered, I came up and hit him in the shoulders. That put him down. He had been fighting with another boar.
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 13, 2016, 08:47:46 AM
QuoteOut of curiosity, has anyone on here ever actually had to defend themselves from an imminent or actual attack? I've known a lot of people to get pretty worked up because there is bear sign in an area but I have never really worried about it, I almost always go armed but am more worried about scumbags than bears or other wild animals.
Yes, I got attacked once. A big boar. Charged, stuck a round in his chest at about 10 feet and closing faster than you can ever imagine. 30-30 round single through a contender. Bear had enough velocity after the shotto hit me and knock me down. When he hit me, I went rolling down a steep bank, my hat came off my head. He pounced on it. When I stopped rolling, I hat another round chambered, I came up and hit him in the shoulders. That put him down. He had been fighting with another boar.
This was the first thing I thought of when I read the OP, your story gives me pucker 10/10. I'd be curious how many people on here have actually been attacked? Probably dozens maybe hundreds have been bluff charged (I have) but to be actually attacked?
:yike:
Post by: Dan-o on January 13, 2016, 08:50:43 AM
I was young and could climb then. I'd be screwed now....
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 13, 2016, 08:54:39 AM
I've been "attacked" by a bear cub that jumped out of a tree to chase me down. I was terrified because I knew mama was probably close but he was very small. Boot got a few scratches but that's it.
Post by: jackelope on January 13, 2016, 09:11:55 AM
Pretty cool encounters really, you know, since we didn't get eaten.
Post by: bearpaw on January 13, 2016, 09:12:48 AM
Hope that info helps!
Post by: mountainman on January 13, 2016, 10:10:28 AM
"In my experience bear are tougher to kill than most anything else in WA, except for maybe moose."They can be tough for sure. No 2 animals are the same, but a big blackie has some heavy bone structure and can be pretty hard to give up the ghost. Those that have been around enough of them and in varied situations know that. To deny that shows inexperience generally..
Hope that info helps!
Post by: jay.sharkbait on January 13, 2016, 10:15:45 AM
"In my experience bear are tougher to kill than most anything else in WA, except for maybe moose."They can be tough for sure. No 2 animals are the same, but a big blacker has some heavy bone structure and can be pretty hard to give up the ghost. Those that have been around enough of them and in varied situations know that. To deny that shows inexperience generally..
Hope that info helps!
I'm surprised that there are any "blackers" left.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 13, 2016, 10:20:22 AM
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 13, 2016, 10:25:19 AM
Post by: jay.sharkbait on January 13, 2016, 10:28:29 AM
The old bear trappers (Washington black bears) I've read about, IIRC, would carry comfortable little .38s with them. In the cases where they would get attacked, the bear was on them so fast that they never really got to aim. They just stuck it into the bear and worked it like a staple gun until the bear stopped, usually a couple shots.
My Great Grandfather was a well known logger and cat Hunter on the west side.
He carried a Colt woodsman and a 25-35.
Post by: mountainman on January 13, 2016, 10:36:13 AM
:chuckle:"In my experience bear are tougher to kill than most anything else in WA, except for maybe moose."They can be tough for sure. No 2 animals are the same, but a big blacker has some heavy bone structure and can be pretty hard to give up the ghost. Those that have been around enough of them and in varied situations know that. To deny that shows inexperience generally..
Hope that info helps!
I'm surprised that there are any "blackers" left.
Post by: Bob33 on January 13, 2016, 10:42:42 AM
Post by: b23 on January 13, 2016, 01:07:42 PM
Post by: Bofire on January 13, 2016, 01:22:55 PM
Carl
Post by: jackelope on January 13, 2016, 01:36:46 PM
:dunno:
Shot placement is king.
Post by: JDHasty on January 13, 2016, 03:00:52 PM
6 of one and half dozen of another... A 2.5" barrel has less velocity and resultant energy but it is a pretty moot point. If you really need it then the belly gun will suit you better because the animal will likely be on you. If you have the time to admire the longer sight radius and higher energy of the longer barrel then you really don't need it because it is likely less than 1:1,000,000 that it is actually a life threatening situation.
Out of curiosity, has anyone on here ever actually had to defend themselves from an imminent or actual attack? I've known a lot of people to get pretty worked up because there is bear sign in an area but I have never really worried about it, I almost always go armed but am more worried about scumbags than bears or other wild animals.
Teacherman - maybe things have changed but my experience with Buffalo Bore has been the worst of any ammunition I have ever experienced. I have personally handled three firearms their ammo has destroyed and helped drive out two slugged barrels from their ammo. I know they have some blistering velocity and good bullet choice but I would personally never use it again.
I had the short barreled 500 S&W for a number of years and it was quite the handful. I learned quickly that when shooting full horsepower loads that if I wanted to save the skin on the web of my palm I should put a little oil on the backstrap so it didn't peel it off. Great gun though, I liked mine a lot but it was just too much overkill.
My buddy Dave had someone give him some reloaded 35 Rem ammo that kinda' worked, but he didn't really care because he rarely shot a bear further than 20 feet away. Dave was tying the dogs back when a second mediocre size black bear he had not seen bum rushed him and grabed him on Artondale Golf Course (now Gig Harbor Golf Club I believe).
It got hold of him by the leg and he was wearing logger's dungarees w/Stihl suspenders, Redwing Romeo's and a hickory shirt. He said that he got lucky because it had him by the knee, but he turned and the bear's mouth slipped off his knee and all it had hold of what the side seam of the pants in it's mouth. Then it started to shake him like a terrier would do with a rat until a suspender button cut loose and he flew out of his pants.
The bear still had the pants in it's mouth and was worrying them something fierce and Dave still had his 35 Rem Marlin in his hands and he finally managed to get it open and another round into it and let the bear know that the party was over.
Dave was like black colored from pretty much head to foot for pert near the next week and then he was kinda the color of an Italian plumb that had areas that faded to greenish color for another week.
He refuse to shoot reloaded ammo to this day. I have pointed out to him that he was well aware that the ammo he was given was not to spec and should never have been used to begin with, but he doesn't want to hear it.
This happened around 1960, about the time the golf course was first there. The info on his color is courtesy of Dave's wife. I got to hear the story the first time back in teh early 1980's after offering to reload some ammo for him.
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 13, 2016, 03:11:53 PM
My good friend/hunting buddy killed a black bear in a full on charge in AK at about 10' with a .25-06 to the face.
:dunno:
Shot placement is king.
That's because the .25-06 is a killa! I would love to see the aftermath of a .25-06 to the dome piece from 10'
Post by: j_h_nimrod on January 13, 2016, 08:45:43 PM
I've been in many situations where pistols of all sizes have been used in all types of circumstances to kill bear, sometimes as a primary weapon, sometimes to finish them off. From what I have seen as a rule a .357 is the minimum I would want to be packing to protect myself against bear. I've never seen less than about a 4" barrel used, but I know a 4" barrel .357 will kill a bear. I also know that .38's shot out of a .357 or out of a .38 probably won't kill a bear very quickly, it might scare the bear away? You need the extra energy of the .357 to kill a bear quickly! One exception, if I had to pack a smaller pistol it would be a .22 magnum, they get fairly good penetration which is what the .38 is lacking. Keep in mind a .22 mag is not legal to use for hunting bear, except for self defense. That Keltec with the 30 round clip is a pretty neat pistol! I would definitely recommend a .41 magnum or other caliber with larger case capacity if you plan to use your pistol to hunt bear! In my experience bear are tougher to kill than most anything else in WA, except for maybe moose.
Hope that info helps!
IIRC an AMT Automag in .22 magnum once accounted for a record black bear by a lady out picking berries.
Post by: mountainman on January 13, 2016, 10:01:01 PM
Post by: Bob33 on January 13, 2016, 10:07:55 PM
hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,189615.msg2506491/topicseen.html#new (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,189615.msg2506491/topicseen.html#new)
Post by: Yondering on January 13, 2016, 10:47:34 PM
For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
I'm glad the majority here aren't on my left or right!
Thanks for your input. Everyone in the room is dumber now by about 10 IQ points.
Post by: mountainman on January 14, 2016, 07:39:36 AM
:chuckle:For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
I'm glad the majority here aren't on my left or right!
Thanks for your input. Everyone in the room is dumber now by about 10 IQ points.
Post by: JDHasty on January 14, 2016, 08:45:53 AM
For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
I'm glad the majority here aren't on my left or right!
Thanks for your input. Everyone in the room is dumber now by about 10 IQ points.
:yeah:
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 14, 2016, 09:10:04 AM
For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
I'm glad the majority here aren't on my left or right!
Thanks for your input. Everyone in the room is dumber now by about 10 IQ points.
You should be appreciative there is no minimum IQ required to participate. :tup:
Blonders bears are mo betters than blackers bears. Duuuuuuuuuuuur.
Post by: magnanimous_j on January 14, 2016, 09:24:17 AM
For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
It surprises me that someone who has to have the best of everything (gun wise anyway) isn't a ballistics nerd.
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 14, 2016, 09:31:04 AM
For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
It surprises me that someone who has to have the best of everything (gun wise anyway) isn't a ballistics nerd.
Ha! There's enough ballistic nerds around. No need for anymore.
Post by: Jonathan_S on January 14, 2016, 09:37:58 AM
Post by: thinkingman on January 14, 2016, 11:07:09 AM
You're forgetting Glocks and Sig wannabe1911s.For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
It surprises me that someone who has to have the best of everything (gun wise anyway) isn't a ballistics nerd.
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 14, 2016, 11:15:12 AM
You're forgetting Glocks and Sig wannabe1911s.For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
It surprises me that someone who has to have the best of everything (gun wise anyway) isn't a ballistics nerd.
Brilliant!!!!
Post by: thinkingman on January 14, 2016, 12:29:49 PM
Don't pretend to get itYou're forgetting Glocks and Sig wannabe1911s.For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
It surprises me that someone who has to have the best of everything (gun wise anyway) isn't a ballistics nerd.
Brilliant!!!!
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 14, 2016, 12:30:55 PM
Don't pretend to get itYou're forgetting Glocks and Sig wannabe1911s.For all you rocket scientist and Google freaks out there. Take a Ruger SP101 .357 loaded with Corbon's jam it in your ribs and pull the trigger. Then give me a call and ask me if it works for a carry handgun in the woods.
It surprises me that someone who has to have the best of everything (gun wise anyway) isn't a ballistics nerd.
Brilliant!!!!
Oh, oh.... Another bite! :tup:
Post by: JDHasty on January 14, 2016, 12:55:21 PM
Post by: b23 on January 14, 2016, 01:27:04 PM
Post by: Bob33 on January 14, 2016, 01:32:10 PM
Even in defense of their cubs, aren't black bear attacks, extremely, uncommon???Since 2000 there have been 27 fatal bear incidences in North America, resulting in 29 deaths. Fifteen were in Canada, three were in Alaska, two were in Tennessee, and single fatal attacks happened in New York, New Mexico, California, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Utah and Montana. Seventeen of those attacks were perpetrated by black bears, and 10 by grizzlies.
Post by: Yondering on January 14, 2016, 02:58:58 PM
Even in defense of their cubs, aren't black bear attacks, extremely, uncommon???Since 2000 there have been 27 fatal bear incidences in North America, resulting in 29 deaths. Fifteen were in Canada, three were in Alaska, two were in Tennessee, and single fatal attacks happened in New York, New Mexico, California, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Utah and Montana. Seventeen of those attacks were perpetrated by black bears, and 10 by grizzlies.
Do you have info on how many more involved non-fatal injuries?
Post by: mountainman on January 14, 2016, 03:22:01 PM
"Yes, I got attacked once. A big boar. Charged, stuck a round in his chest at about 10 feet and closing faster than you can ever imagine. 30-30 round single through a contender. Bear had enough velocity after the shotto hit me and knock me down. When he hit me, I went rolling down a steep bank, my hat came off my head. He pounced on it. When I stopped rolling, I hat another round chambered, I came up and hit him in the shoulders. That put him down. He had been fighting with another boar."
Remember the Methow bear hunting days. Have a few scars from them, but what fun, eh Bone??! ☺
Post by: jay.sharkbait on January 14, 2016, 03:35:11 PM
Remember the Methow bear hunting days. Have a few scars from them, but what fun, eh Bone??! ☺
Did you wrastl'e with a big Black'r?
Post by: mountainman on January 14, 2016, 09:16:07 PM
Even in defense of their cubs, aren't black bear attacks, extremely, uncommon???Most of the time..most..
Post by: b23 on January 15, 2016, 01:34:05 AM
Even in defense of their cubs, aren't black bear attacks, extremely, uncommon???Since 2000 there have been 27 fatal bear incidences in North America, resulting in 29 deaths. Fifteen were in Canada, three were in Alaska, two were in Tennessee, and single fatal attacks happened in New York, New Mexico, California, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Utah and Montana. Seventeen of those attacks were perpetrated by black bears, and 10 by grizzlies.
Staying Safe in Bear Country
Black bear attacks are extraordinarily rare though many hundreds of thousands of people live, work and recreate annually in black bear country throughout Washington. In 2015, there were about 7 million people living in Washington State but fewer than 10 total bear attacks have ever been recorded here. The only known bear-caused human fatality in this State occurred more than 40 years ago. Attitude surveys of outdoor recreationists and sports hunters reveal that in fact, these people feel that bear sightings are far more likely to enhance one’s wilderness experience than to spoil it.
Rest of the article can be read here.
http://westernwildlife.org/black-bear-outreach-project/black-bear-safety/
Post by: mountainman on January 15, 2016, 03:50:06 PM
good read.Even in defense of their cubs, aren't black bear attacks, extremely, uncommon???Since 2000 there have been 27 fatal bear incidences in North America, resulting in 29 deaths. Fifteen were in Canada, three were in Alaska, two were in Tennessee, and single fatal attacks happened in New York, New Mexico, California, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Utah and Montana. Seventeen of those attacks were perpetrated by black bears, and 10 by grizzlies.
Staying Safe in Bear Country
Black bear attacks are extraordinarily rare though many hundreds of thousands of people live, work and recreate annually in black bear country throughout Washington. In 2015, there were about 7 million people living in Washington State but fewer than 10 total bear attacks have ever been recorded here. The only known bear-caused human fatality in this State occurred more than 40 years ago. Attitude surveys of outdoor recreationists and sports hunters reveal that in fact, these people feel that bear sightings are far more likely to enhance one’s wilderness experience than to spoil it.
Rest of the article can be read here.
http://westernwildlife.org/black-bear-outreach-project/black-bear-safety/
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 15, 2016, 06:01:47 PM
Post by: Alchase on January 15, 2016, 07:47:37 PM
It's OK your with friends
LOL
Besides everyone know "ghost" bears are the bomb!
Post by: JDHasty on January 15, 2016, 08:35:49 PM
It is all fun and games until someone looses a fight with a wild animal. They are all harmless... until they are not!!
That being said: Unless a bear is determined to end any threat, YOU need to end it pronto.
People just do not put themselves in a position to be mauled if they know that a bear mauling is on the table. But, you don't always know and it only makes sense to be prepared with more than a first aid kit and being prepared to roll yourself up in a ball and wait out the outcome of a bear attack.
Back when we could bait bear I was heading into a bait site with a McDonald's pickle bucket full of Tiger Tails and Snow Balls and was just not paying attention when I "saw" my black lab move through the brush twenty feet to my right and then heard my dog at my left heal.
This is not a comfortable position to be in when that bear is on a bait site and all I have is a bolt action 77/22. What I did was to drop the bucket and back away slowly while assuring my dog that the best thing to do was not to leave my side.
I used to pay neighborhood kids to unwrap my bait and use their feet to compress the pastries into a solid block of bear goodies. That bear opened the bucket up by tearing it in two. AND did so as soon as I decamped.
It very well could have been hiking a trail and a bear was moving into a blackberry thicket and seen me as a competitor. Being that I was in an area that a lot of contact with humans was likely and the bears there did NOT decamp... you do the math.
Having a side arm capable of me deciding when we were finishing any contact is a better option than me letting a bear decide when the threat to it's groceries has ended. It is just common sense, instead of letting a bear decide, and since that day and I carried a 3" Model 13 357 loaded with rounds that will ruin that revolver if fed a steady diet of them. I have a chest holster and it was not one or the other and if I needed it that Model 13 is "right there."
I never shot a single one of those rounds out of that Model 13, but I shot them a little out of my 581 just to see where they impacted at twenty-five feet. With the Model 13 it was just a matter of being able to deal a decisive blow before I ran out of ammo at hand to hand fighting range.
Just a bit of insurance and the cost of paying the premium for that insurance policy was less than two pounds in a holster that made carrying it no issue.
Better to have something than nothing and the something just cannot be a 22 mag or a 38 special.
You only get to die once.
Post by: mountainman on January 15, 2016, 10:18:04 PM
Post by: mountainman on January 16, 2016, 03:40:49 PM
Post by: dontgetcrabs on January 16, 2016, 03:46:53 PM
Deer kill far more people than bear do
WHAT??? That can't be true?
Post by: JDHasty on January 16, 2016, 05:14:41 PM
Deer kill far more people than bear do
WHAT??? That can't be true?
A man was killed near my mother's home when she lived in Texas and I read that statistic in the article in the paper. I never did any further research, and that factoid has stayed with me as factual information.
This was twenty-five years ago. I met a man who was attacked by a deer in Rainier shortly before that time and it got him down and tried to disembowel him with it's rear feet (he very nearly died from a lacerated liver) and I have just accepted that as fact, but it may not be true unless you take auto-accidents into account.
Average Number of Deaths per Year in the U.S
Bee/Wasp 53
Dogs 31
Spider 6.5
Rattlesnake 5.5
Mountain lion 1
Shark 1
Alligator 0.3
Bear 0.5
Scorpion 0.5
Centipede 0.5
Elephant 0.25
Wolf 0.1
Horse 20
Bull 3
The two things that stand out in this list is Cougars are twice as likely as bear and I personally know of three people killed by bulls and don't know anyone in any other catagory.
I stand corrected.
Post by: mountainman on January 16, 2016, 07:27:32 PM
Although black bear attacks are rare and most victims come out unscathed, this does not negate the fact that black bear attacks do happen and are sometimes fatal. Since 1900, there have been only 45-recorded deaths that were caused by black bears in the North America. This number is very minimal compared to the over 500 conflicts between black bears and humans from 1960 to 1980. Black bear attacks are much more common in the United States than are grizzly bear attacks. The main reason for the difference is the population size of each species. There are approximately 300,000 black bears in the continental United States, whereas there are only about 2000-3000 grizzlies still remaining in the lower 48 states. The larger population of black bears greatly increases the probability of encountering one in the wild.
Post by: Yondering on January 17, 2016, 12:10:15 AM
Deer kill far more people than bear do
WHAT??? That can't be true?
Haven't you read the "ropin a deer" story?
Post by: mountainman on January 17, 2016, 08:33:14 AM
http://komonews.com/news/local/man-survives-second-bear-attack-in-4-years-i-just-had-this-deja-vu-11-21-2015
Post by: mountainman on January 17, 2016, 11:44:04 AM
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on January 17, 2016, 11:52:34 AM
Post by: mountainman on January 17, 2016, 12:07:26 PM
I'm waaaaaaaaaay more scared going to any city in Thurston, pierce, king or Snohomish county, than being in the woods anywhere unarmed....not too scared of that either...but Definetly more comfortable in the hills then in those areas :) as most on here would agree!
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 21, 2016, 08:07:57 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FIMG_2145_zpskrecaacz.jpg&hash=c1eb35a1b7d4e288f9c7ea41f082894efe35de8c) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/landonmoses/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_2145_zpskrecaacz.jpg.html)
Post by: JJB11B on January 21, 2016, 08:16:52 PM
Post by: thinkingman on January 22, 2016, 10:47:04 AM
Is that 1.75" really going to make a difference? Keep reading! :chuckle:The morons at Buffalo Bore seem to think so, but what do they know....Keep reading.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FIMG_2145_zpskrecaacz.jpg&hash=c1eb35a1b7d4e288f9c7ea41f082894efe35de8c) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/landonmoses/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_2145_zpskrecaacz.jpg.html)
We never use extra long laboratory barrels to produce our advertised velocities, which we feel is dishonest to the customer as those extra long barrels produce extra high velocities, which you cannot duplicate with stock revolvers in the real world. Instead, we use stock firearms and you can see the velocity results below.
1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3 inch barrel, 38 SPL
1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel, 357 mag.
989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre dash), 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 38 SPL
Some people are insecure enough to shoot 300RUM just for the extra 100fps.
Keep reading.
Post by: jay.sharkbait on January 22, 2016, 11:03:09 AM
Is that 1.75" really going to make a difference? Keep reading! :chuckle:The morons at Buffalo Bore seem to think so, but what do they know....Keep reading.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FIMG_2145_zpskrecaacz.jpg&hash=c1eb35a1b7d4e288f9c7ea41f082894efe35de8c) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/landonmoses/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_2145_zpskrecaacz.jpg.html)
We never use extra long laboratory barrels to produce our advertised velocities, which we feel is dishonest to the customer as those extra long barrels produce extra high velocities, which you cannot duplicate with stock revolvers in the real world. Instead, we use stock firearms and you can see the velocity results below.
1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3 inch barrel, 38 SPL
1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel, 357 mag.
989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre dash), 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 38 SPL
Some people are insecure enough to shoot 300RUM just for the extra 100fps.
Keep reading.
So from the numbers listed .38 is faster than 357 in the shorter barrel lengths?
Same weight bullet?
Post by: jackelope on January 22, 2016, 11:03:38 AM
Keep reading? (it seems like the cool thing to say at this point)
Post by: mountainman on January 22, 2016, 08:46:55 PM
How much difference does 50-100fps make at 20'?👆😄
Keep reading? (it seems like the cool thing to say at this point)
Post by: Bob33 on January 22, 2016, 08:54:02 PM
How much difference does 50-100fps make at 20'?About 50-100 fps.
Keep reading.
Post by: jackelope on January 22, 2016, 08:55:33 PM
How much difference does 50-100fps make at 20'?About 50-100 fps.
Keep reading.
Good point. I'm going to hope something more gets posted so I have something to keep reading.
Post by: jay.sharkbait on January 22, 2016, 09:03:15 PM
Post by: jackelope on January 22, 2016, 11:36:24 PM
Post by: yorketransport on January 23, 2016, 04:12:20 PM
If 100 fps isn't a meaningful increase in velocity, doesn't that make the velocity advantage of a 4" barreled 357 insignificant when compared to a 2.5" 357? The Buffalo Bore comparison isn't really meaningful unless we get all of the data on the specific load used in that example. I love theoretical debates, but we need to have all of the info to actually make a comparison. Otherwise you end up with a logical fallacy as an argument. Ex:
Some people are insecure enough to shoot 300RUM just for the extra 100fps.
-A dog is an animal with 4 legs, 2 ears and a tail.
-A cat has 4 legs, 2 ears and a tail.
-Therefore a cat is a dog.
-A 38 special from a 1 7/8" revolver has a velocity of 1027 fps (with an undisclosed load)
-A 357 mag with a 1 7/8" revolver has a velocity of 989 fps (with an undisclosed load)
-Therefore a 38 special is equal or superior to a 357 mag from a 1 7/8" barrel.
If I'm loading 125gr bullets for a 2.5" 357 mag I'd use a different powder than I would for a 6" barrel to make up for the shorter burn time in the shorter barrel. More importantly I wouldn't be using a 125 gr bullet in a 2.5" 357 as a 4 legged critter defense gun in the woods. Something in the 150-180gr range is more appropriate. Like wise I wouldn't use a 180gr bullet in a 38 special ever, for any reason! It's all about matching the load to the gun to the situation. I think a stubby barreled 357 would do just fine if it were needed. Personally I'd go for something significantly larger than a 357 in any length. That's why we have a 41 Mag! :tup:
Post by: jackelope on January 23, 2016, 05:18:50 PM
I keep reading but I can't figure out what this topic was originally about! :chuckle:If 100 fps isn't a meaningful increase in velocity, doesn't that make the velocity advantage of a 4" barreled 357 insignificant when compared to a 2.5" 357? The Buffalo Bore comparison isn't really meaningful unless we get all of the data on the specific load used in that example. I love theoretical debates, but we need to have all of the info to actually make a comparison. Otherwise you end up with a logical fallacy as an argument. Ex:
Some people are insecure enough to shoot 300RUM just for the extra 100fps.
-A dog is an animal with 4 legs, 2 ears and a tail.
-A cat has 4 legs, 2 ears and a tail.
-Therefore a cat is a dog.
-A 38 special from a 1 7/8" revolver has a velocity of 1027 fps (with an undisclosed load)
-A 357 mag with a 1 7/8" revolver has a velocity of 989 fps (with an undisclosed load)
-Therefore a 38 special is equal or superior to a 357 mag from a 1 7/8" barrel.
If I'm loading 125gr bullets for a 2.5" 357 mag I'd use a different powder than I would for a 6" barrel to make up for the shorter burn time in the shorter barrel. More importantly I wouldn't be using a 125 gr bullet in a 2.5" 357 as a 4 legged critter defense gun in the woods. Something in the 150-180gr range is more appropriate. Like wise I wouldn't use a 180gr bullet in a 38 special ever, for any reason! It's all about matching the load to the gun to the situation. I think a stubby barreled 357 would do just fine if it were needed. Personally I'd go for something significantly larger than a 357 in any length. That's why we have a 41 Mag! :tup:
Ummm, you're supposed to say keep reading.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 23, 2016, 05:25:12 PM
:yeah:I keep reading but I can't figure out what this topic was originally about! :chuckle:If 100 fps isn't a meaningful increase in velocity, doesn't that make the velocity advantage of a 4" barreled 357 insignificant when compared to a 2.5" 357? The Buffalo Bore comparison isn't really meaningful unless we get all of the data on the specific load used in that example. I love theoretical debates, but we need to have all of the info to actually make a comparison. Otherwise you end up with a logical fallacy as an argument. Ex:
Some people are insecure enough to shoot 300RUM just for the extra 100fps.
-A dog is an animal with 4 legs, 2 ears and a tail.
-A cat has 4 legs, 2 ears and a tail.
-Therefore a cat is a dog.
-A 38 special from a 1 7/8" revolver has a velocity of 1027 fps (with an undisclosed load)
-A 357 mag with a 1 7/8" revolver has a velocity of 989 fps (with an undisclosed load)
-Therefore a 38 special is equal or superior to a 357 mag from a 1 7/8" barrel.
If I'm loading 125gr bullets for a 2.5" 357 mag I'd use a different powder than I would for a 6" barrel to make up for the shorter burn time in the shorter barrel. More importantly I wouldn't be using a 125 gr bullet in a 2.5" 357 as a 4 legged critter defense gun in the woods. Something in the 150-180gr range is more appropriate. Like wise I wouldn't use a 180gr bullet in a 38 special ever, for any reason! It's all about matching the load to the gun to the situation. I think a stubby barreled 357 would do just fine if it were needed. Personally I'd go for something significantly larger than a 357 in any length. That's why we have a 41 Mag! :tup:
Ummm, you're supposed to say keep reading.
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 23, 2016, 05:55:23 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi90.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk269%2Flandonmoses%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2FFullSizeRender_zpsrla6ywex.jpg&hash=f8b321756115f2af8d4e307e303b30be1b322aef) (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/landonmoses/media/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender_zpsrla6ywex.jpg.html)
Post by: JDHasty on January 23, 2016, 08:45:46 PM
But if you pick wild blue huck in the fall and are in berry patches... a couple pounds of insurance isn't that much of a burden.
This topic of velocity -vs- bullet weight is one that has gone on ever since smokeless powder and jacketed bullets became the norm. When looking at self defense against an animal with a tough hide and heavy muscle and strong bones momentum can not play second fiddle to energy.
Energy favors velocity, and by a wide margin. But what is all important is that the bullet stay intact and have sufficient momentum to carry it into the vitals or through bone like shoulder or bone or a bear skull and that depends having sufficient momentum behind a bullet that maintains it's structural integrity long enough to get into the vitals or through the skull.
A bullet that expands rapidly will shed velocity after impact because of the increased frontal area. And a bullet that fragments will by definition lose weight and that may compromise deep penetration, but at handgun velocities the latter is probably not going to be a concern unless we are looking at a flying ashtray 45 ACP bullet shot from a 454 Casull.
I would not feel confident in a light 38 Special bullet being a better choice than a slower heavy 357 bullet even if the latter has significantly lower velocity, and both have the same exact retained momentum upon impact, simply because the sectional density of a comparably constructed heavier bullet will result in deeper, and hopefully adequate, penetration. Lighter bullets of the same caliber deflect more for two reasons, they lack mass and they have a lower sectional density and as sectional density increases linear stability follows in a directly proportional relation.
Both the faster 38 Special and the 357 will shed velocity upon impact and while they penetrate. But if the correct bullet is chosen they will retain almost all their weight and the mathematical equations that model the physics of velocity loss of a bullet penetrating any substance take into consideration of, and account for, bullet weight and a lighter bullet sheds velocity at enough of a higher rate that the heavier bullet at a lower impact velocity (within reason) always performs better when deep penetration is what is on the table.
The reason I put "within reason" in that statement is that there is terminal bullet performance to consider. If we are considering jacketed bullets and even if we include flat nosed lead or alloy bullets - terminal performance is a function of surface area of the flat frontal area of a bullet and area is not a linear function of diameter. It is again a function of the (Caliber/2 squared) times Pi. I put that in because some people may want to look at a 327 Hornaday and the energy that a hard cast flat nosed can deliver and want to say that if a hard cast 38 out of a short 357 lighter hard cast 32 out of a lighter weight and easier to pack SP101 are ~ equal...
I bring this up because you only get to die once. The terminal ballistics of a 38 and a 32 caliber bullet that both rely on a flat frontal area both with the same striking energy diverge greatly. The difference, even if both retained the same velocity once they were past the skin and bone and got to where they could do some good is easy to put a number on and compare. It is the difference of (caliber/2 squared)xPi in how much tissue they will displace and send flying.
If we discount a brain shot or a heart shot it probably does not make sense to rely on a hard cast, flat nose, bullet though. And can we all agree that a pure lead bullet of the weights appropriate for use in a revolver would just flatten out if they encounter heavy bone?
My intent is that this leaves the discussion to a handgun firing jacketed bullets that can and will expand and still have sufficient momentum to penetrate to the quickly fatal vital areas on a chest hit and can penetrate the skull and reach the brain.
I think a 357 firing a heavy bullet is the bare minimum, I see a 10mm semi -auto pistol as the best compromise between portability and power, but I cary a Model 13 with heavy bullets when I am out berry picking in September because that is what I have.
Post by: mountainman on January 23, 2016, 09:40:20 PM
Post by: JDHasty on January 23, 2016, 10:14:19 PM
On time, in a Chase w/I a side arm, resorted to kicking the Crap out of a medium sized bear, which happened to have the head of our strike dog in it's mouth. Waiting for the shooter to get there with his gun. A mistake only made once! Even a 38 special would have been welcome at that point!
No doubt! When a bear turns and ground fights instead of treeing, if you have dogs that won't back down in the pack, a fight favors the bear and it will only end one way unless you can get there and end it. You will lose your boldest dogs and that is never a good thing for a pack.
Post by: Biggerhammer on January 23, 2016, 10:40:00 PM
3 bowls of crap ,can't begin to equal a teaspoon of sense. :tup: