Post by: bbarnes on January 26, 2009, 09:15:10 PM
Click Here:
http://www.youtube.com/MtSaintHelensRescue
Post by: Huntbear on January 26, 2009, 09:27:56 PM
Post by: archery288 on January 26, 2009, 09:31:09 PM
Post by: bbarnes on January 26, 2009, 09:49:33 PM
#1 Over pursuit of the wildlife. *Hunting seasons are to long in this area*.
#2 Animals are over stressed and under nourished, due to lack of habitat.
#3 Due to herbicide & pesticide spays on the clear cut there is NO FOOD.
#4 The worst winter on record since 1937.
#5 People need to take a active roll in helping the wildlife survive so we will have animals to hunt.
#6 Ask yourself what you can do to be Postive part of fixing this problem.
#7 This take a HUGE amount of time & money to do all of this. Any Donations would be greatly appreciated. With labor or dollars.
#8 Alfalfa is $300/ton or $20/bale
Post by: Huntbear on January 26, 2009, 09:59:10 PM
You want to point the blame, point it where it belongs, at the government, and the liberal mentality. Elk need food, they eat grass. Grass will not grow in standing timber, only in open areas, clearcuts, etc..... Ban logging in this country and the elk habitat dies. The reason elk have flourished in years past is due to logging operations clearing the land, so grass can grow until the newly planted trees grow. By the time new trees kill off the grass and vegetation, there are new clearcuts, and open areas with lots of feed. It is funny(not really) that most of the starving elk are coming out of the National Forest???? While elk on Weyerhauser and other private timber company land are flourishing for the most part????
Guess I need to get off my soapbox now.
Post by: bucklucky on January 26, 2009, 10:43:40 PM
Post by: spur_ride on January 26, 2009, 10:52:28 PM
Post by: FrankDown on January 27, 2009, 12:01:03 AM
Has anyone heard of this group before or know what their views are on hunting.
Someone was talking about the health of the Mt Helens herd somewhere, here maybe. What are the rules and regs on that area? Does anyone have any other info about the herd in Helens?
Does their group "Preservation of Mt Helens" support hunting or opposes hunting? I will try to find a website or info later on.
This is from the Helens Preservation Website:
We are dedicated to the preservation of all WILDLIFE in and around the area by working with all agencies for controlled permit harvesting and game management for all people.
Not sure if their choice of words are wrong or if they are trying to preserve the wildlife. Typically animal rights groups are preservationists where you dont use or hunt the animals.
Maybe the poster could clarify the questions I have.
Quote
#5 People trying to take a active roll in helping the wildlife survive so we will have animals to huntThis looks like a prohunting statement, but the video seems to put hunters in a bad light. Im sure someone will flame me for posting this...
Post by: bbarnes on January 27, 2009, 09:55:18 AM
Post by: FrankDown on January 27, 2009, 11:23:48 AM
Post by: mossback91 on January 27, 2009, 12:44:57 PM
#8 Alfalfa is $300/ton or $20/bale
wow hay is spendy where you are at thats for sure!
Post by: ELKBURGER on January 27, 2009, 04:22:51 PM
Post by: alanger on January 27, 2009, 04:28:11 PM
#8 Alfalfa is $300/ton or $20/bale
wow hay is spendy where you are at thats for sure!
yeah it is
Post by: Slamadoo on January 27, 2009, 04:47:42 PM
The Conservation vs. Preservation point that Frank made is a very important one. They are two very different things and the differences between them go way back to the turn of the last century. They go back to the battles between Gifford Pinchot and John Muir. There is a great video about this called "Wilderness Idea."
Still sounds like a good cause though.
Post by: KillzElk on January 28, 2009, 11:03:21 AM
I have been to both these sites and did my own research on this problem. Also personally been to several meetings, that the public never gets to speak at.. When these meetings are open to the public.
Great info here keep up the good work.
http://mtsainthelensrescue.com
http://www.youtube.com/MtSaintHelensRescue
Post by: ELKBURGER on January 28, 2009, 01:36:19 PM
welcome to the site killz
Post by: FrankDown on January 28, 2009, 01:38:26 PM
Mt Helens preservation - (The name states preservation which means no use by definition) Preservation means no use. No hunting, no target shooting, no hiking, no or limited camping, etc.
His wording in the video states that hunters are a predominate cause of the starvation.
This is my interpretation of his words directly from his mouth and website. I am not the only one that apparently thinks this also.
His heart may be inthe right place, but his words are not. If he in fact wants to help conservation methods to help the elk and get that help from hunters and outdoorsmen perhaps a better angle can be approached. As it stands it sounds to me like the many hundreds of animal rights websites that seek to keep hunters out of "their" areas.
I asked him to reiterate his views on this site and in emails and it has been skirted. So until I am sure I am not funding an animal rights agenda I cannot support him. I can do what I can do, but I cant fund animal rights lobbys who alrady gain 300 million dollars a year to keep us out of "their" areas. 300 million dollars will buy a lot of hay and alfalfa but generally the money doesnt go to these kinds of issues, it goes to building corporate offices, summer homes, and BMWs.
It is unfortunate that the elk are in the position they are in and that a certain area will only hold so many animals. That being said we dont know, or I dont know, what they push for in their "private" meetings. We have enough problems without supporting groups that are fighting against our privileges to hunt. Once again it is unfortunate that the elk are stuck in this predicament, but if the groups are not supportive of hunting and conservation methods then perhaps another group or agency should be targeted to help.
Once again if someone from the groups wants to clarify what they are saying I will listen. I have asked a couple times already to clarify their stance on hunting and sportmsmen but have received nothing. To me however their mission statement is unclear on what side of the fence they are on as far as hunting and sportsmen are concerned.
Post by: ELKBURGER on January 28, 2009, 01:48:01 PM
Post by: KillzElk on January 28, 2009, 05:09:51 PM
No it is not a preservation, by what I am understanding in the video is this could come to many things.
I see you have time to break down every word directly from his mouth and website.
His heart is in the right place, but the words may have confused your ears. He is only one person that I am sure has a job and is dealing with all the meetings trying to keep people like you informed, So I am sure he is NOT SKIRTING YOU. If all you want to do is complain try to help out get involved.
Email him get his number maybe you can get all your answers GENIUS. :peep:
The funds for the animals does not go to building corporate offices, summer homes, and BMWs.
Goes Directly here like it says.
Donations can be made directly to:
Pioneer Feed & Supply
Ridgefield Wa.
360-887-4247
Mike Agard
They are NOT a group that is fighting against our privileges to hunt. Once again it is unfortunate that the elk are stuck in this predicament, But you wont have a problem trying to hunt whats left out there starving when your belly is full.
Starving Elk / Full Belly Hunter MMM ? :EAT:
So email them get there number , :mgun:
Post by: FrankDown on January 28, 2009, 05:40:29 PM
Quote
No it is not a preservation, by what I am understanding in the video is this could come to many things.
I see you have time to break down every word directly from his mouth and website.
Its what he says. And it isnt paraphrased, that hunters are the cause of the elk starving.
Quote
The funds for the animals does not go to building corporate offices, summer homes, and BMWs.
His may not, and I didnt say that his funds were. I am saying that the animal rights advocacy groups that fight for animal rights and preservation of land which includes no hunting status, does.
Im not trying to argue with you. Im simply asking a couple questions about his organization and what comes directly from his mouth, and directly from his website.
Quote
Email him get his number maybe you can get all your answers GENIUS.I emailed them, and posted the same questions here, and he replied, without answering the questions. And I never have professed myself to be a genius. I just wanted to know what his stance is on 2 issues that I inquired about. I dont think it is unreasonable, is it?
Post by: KillzElk on January 28, 2009, 06:54:12 PM
The video says Help these few groups so take your pick:
http://mtsainthelensrescue.com These are great Videos: www.youtube.com/user/MtSaintHelensRescue
www.ecoparkresort.com/
www.mtsthelensociety.org
He is trying to say that the hunters chase the elk almost all year hunting them & they dont even get a break, now they have No food.
Thanks for reading my post greatly appreciated.
Post by: gasman on January 28, 2009, 07:28:36 PM
I am all for supporting the feeding of the elk to help there survival of the winter, but i do take offence to his statements in the first video where he blames the hunters for the starvation, while wearing a shirt that has the word "hunters" on it (I am paraphrasing, not quoting him). Blaiming the hunters made me want to give him the Middle finger and inform him where the real blame lies.
:bdid:
If he wants to point the finger in a video, than do it towards the mismanagement from the government agencies, distruction of the habitat by over development, not the the hunters who mainly support this kind of actions.
Just my :twocents:
Post by: KillzElk on January 28, 2009, 07:37:05 PM
*Quote*
If he wants to point the finger in a video, than do it towards the mismanagement from the government agencies, distruction of the habitat by over development, not the the hunters who mainly support this kind of actions.
This is correct nice job he is pointing a finger at these worthless government agencies that are lazy & dont have a clue .. :mgun:
Post by: Tom Tamer on January 28, 2009, 08:04:53 PM
I am though open to insight on this, because I think it's more the WDFW failing to recognize that their permit system has failed this herd?
Post by: FrankDown on January 28, 2009, 08:25:36 PM
Quote
Over 100,000 hunter days led to over pursuit and borderline harassment that has enhanced the stress to an already nutritionally deprived herd.
Eco park resort - I dont understand why a private resort would need help, unless they want to book all ten days at 110 dollars a day...
Im still confused here...
Quote
Hey I am not angry just love to read your post and break it down the same way , We are all on here for the same reason are rights for everything.
The video says Help these few groups so take your pick:
http://mtsainthelensrescue.com These are great Videos: www.youtube.com/user/MtSaintHelensRescue
www.ecoparkresort.com/
www.mtsthelensociety.org
He is trying to say that the hunters chase the elk almost all year huting them & they dont even get a break, now they have No food.
Post by: Slamadoo on January 28, 2009, 08:31:58 PM
Post by: bowhuntin on January 28, 2009, 08:35:31 PM
Post by: KillzElk on January 28, 2009, 09:45:48 PM
Post by: bullchaser on January 28, 2009, 10:11:31 PM
I respect what this man is doing and I am greatfull he cares for our wildlife but what he is doing is a temporary fix to a permanent problem. :twocents:
Post by: bucklucky on January 28, 2009, 10:23:39 PM
The problem in 524 has nothing to due with hunting pressure at all. their are thousands of units in the west with 10 times as much pressure and the herds are stable. the elk are dying because they run out of winter range feed and have been doing so for many years, so the mature bulls and really young ones die leaving nothing but raghorns to rule over thousands of cows breading their inferior genes. that's why those pics are full of rats you would be lucky to find a 6 point in all those elk. The problem is with WDFW, and cutting the tags for the next 3 years is only going to make it worse. We have created this problem by our own rules and regulations I.E. stopping wildfires, 3 point min regs and creating untouched sanctuary's and if the state will not let hunters controll the population (cow hunts ) maybe more of them need to die off.
I respect what this man is doing and I am greatfull he cares for our wildlife but what he is doing is a temporary fix to a permanent problem. :twocents:
Thats exactly how I see it.
Post by: FrankDown on January 28, 2009, 10:32:37 PM
Quote
By Swami B "Swami B" (Harlem, NY USA) - See all my reviews
"Playing God in Yellowstone" by Alston Chase is a scathing indictment of the National Park Service, detailing its many misguided attempts to preserve wildlife while making Yellowstone National Park a tourist hotspot. The federal agency's conflicted mission resulted in the park service's becoming the largest killer of animal life in the park, routinely exterminating wolves, bears, mountain lions, big horn sheep, and elk.
The book also shows how politics trumped science routinely in deciding park policy. Decisions were made to preserve some animal species while eliminating others, without the benefit of any detailed biological studies of the park's ecosystem, which historically was not necessarily a natural habitat for many species found there at the beginning of the 20th century (farmers and cattlemen had cordoned off many grazing areas that antelope and other species had used for millenia). The park service favored elk, because they were popular with tourists, but the elk herds were enormously destructive in eating their way through all available food sources that other species needed to survive. What did the park service do when the elk herd grew too large? Shipped the animals to other parks, and arranged for mass slaughters to keep the herds in check.
The park service also ignored the fact that Native Americans were not the nature-loving shepherds of the forest so often depicted in media portrayals. They employed forest fires as a means of driving game into areas where they could be hunted, and nearly exterminated many species before the white man arrived. (Although Chase does cite scientific studies that show the benefit of forest fires in helping to renew the environment for a wide variety of plant and animal species.)
Meanwhile, such "watchdog" groups as the National Audobon Society, the Nature Conservancy, the Boone and Crockett Club, the Wilderness Society, and World Wildlife Fund were guided by former park service and Department of Interior officials, and tacitly endorsed policies that destroyed much of the natural environment. They, and the Sierra Club, encouraged people to visit the national parks, while conveniently ignoring the hugely destructive effects that hikers and campers wrought on forest areas.
The endless God-like tinkering demonstrates a litany of unintended consequences. This book should be required reading for anyone who wants to understand the pitfalls of misguided environmental policies.
Post by: KillzElk on January 28, 2009, 10:43:45 PM
Post by: elkangel on January 28, 2009, 10:58:12 PM
And now the rest of the story, loving wildlife to death, just when the hunting season ends people start heading into the deep winter woods looking for antlers, deer sheds of coarse, in January thru February. But, you can't help but run into elk and chase them around, scouting for the elk shed that will start in March and April. During these times the elk are easy to find herded up in the valleys close in searching for food to get through winter. So in reality they are pursued in poor condition 7 months of the year.
So, this is the reality of the pursuit, stress and harassment, unintended by people who are just trying to enjoy themselves.
If you are siting there saying this guy is full of S--t, ask yourself, how stressed do you get hunting these days?
Post by: bbarnes on January 28, 2009, 11:12:48 PM
Post by: FrankDown on January 29, 2009, 12:06:16 AM
The website says that they feed 80 elk over 100 private acres. Is this current information?
Quote
It is a permit hunt area only and there is two many elk in the area for the available vegetation.
As far as eco park I looked at their website and all I see is hunting lodge settings fore 110 dollars a day and fishing and bus tours. They did email me and said that they allow the elk to be fed on their property.
I am also curious to know what direction they are following in their moethods of reforestation and management techniques. Are these under supervision of the fish and game department, a biologist, or from studies, or something that is done grass roots guerilla style? I see that reforestation processes had been started, I was just wondering what management systems were being followed and how they have been proven or worked in other areas.
Once again, I dont want this to be taken as an attack or flame about you guys trying to take care of the elk. I am curious about this and am just asking questions about it.
Post by: CastleRocker on January 29, 2009, 12:36:42 AM
I've been to most of the public meetings that are held locally concerning the status of the Volcanic National Monument, (most with little or no notice), and I have been impressed with what Mark is says and what he is trying to do. When he says "preserve", I get the impression he wants to preserve the recreation activities that we currently have. Which meens NO national park, etc. He makes most of his fall/winter income from the hunting public that stays at his Eco-Park. He was a driving factor to get the indians to stop shooting (poaching) the elk around the area in the last 15 years. He has done some good things, and I think his heart is in the right place. He spoke (in opposition) at the last meeting that was held concerning the huge mine that they are trying to push through at the head of the Green River. Right in the middle of the wintering area for that part of the mountain. THAT would be a disaster for those elk. Like I said, I think he is on the right track.
As far as the "St.Helens" herd that I see people refer to....where is it located? Is it ONLY in the blast zone? Or over in the Green River drainage? (We found 33 dead elk there last spring, and those were just the ones we saw). Is it the South Toutle drainage? Is it the Muddy River? (Found 16 dead ones there last spring and we only went up there one afternoon). Or is it the elk that die over in the Smith Creek/Ape Canyon flat? There is a LOT of country surrounding this mountain....and last year was especially hard on them.
I saw the hoof-rot subject brought up too. We spend quite a bit of time up in the hills and I have not seen one case of hoof rot up there. We had seven (that we found) die last spring out behind our house, (Ryderwood unit). They all had hoof rot, and all of them spent a lot of time in the pastures. That seems to be the elk that get hoof-rot the most, at least what I've seen personally. The bull my son took this year had it, and it was feeding in or around the field most of the summer. There aren't any pastures in the Margret or Toutle units. The flats in the Loowit could qualify as a pasture in places I suppose. So maybe they have a hoof-rot issue there. I've lived in the area all of my life and I love it here. I guess I threw in more than my two cents, more like a dime, but this is a subject that is near and dear to my all family and myself.
Post by: colockumelk on January 29, 2009, 12:06:37 PM
The point of these videos is to raise awareness on Mt Saint Helens , And the surrounding areas.
#1 Over pursuit of the wildlife. *Hunting seasons are to long in this area*.
#2 Animals are over stressed and under nourished, due to lack of habitat.
#3 Due to herbicide & pesticide spays on the clear cut there is NO FOOD.
#4 The worst winter on record since 1937.
#5 People need to take a active roll in helping the wildlife survive so we will have animals to hunt.
#6 Ask yourself what you can do to be Postive part of fixing this problem.
#7 This take a HUGE amount of time & money to do all of this. Any Donations would be greatly appreciated. With labor or dollars.
#8 Alfalfa is $300/ton or $20/bale
$300 dollars a ton! WTF where do you buy hay from. At the most hay here is 150 a ton. Man you guys are getting hosed big time.
Post by: Guns4Fun on January 29, 2009, 01:22:48 PM
"If you are not part of the solution your part of the problem"
What are you doing to insure that there will be elk available to hunt in the future?
Also, if you have got the hook up on Alfalfa for $150 a ton why don't you give the guy a call!
Post by: woodywsu on January 29, 2009, 01:30:59 PM
"If you are not part of the solution your part of the problem"
What are you doing to insure that there will be elk available to hunt in the future?
Also, if you have got the hook up on Alfalfa for $150 a ton why don't you give the guy a call!
As far as I know, I can't think of a place to find alfalfa for $300 a ton. Everywhere you look is a hell of a lot cheaper than that.
Post by: FrankDown on January 29, 2009, 02:29:13 PM
Post by: Slamadoo on January 29, 2009, 04:00:36 PM
What these elk really need is more winter range. Maybe a few more cows harvested out of these units. How about some more logging in the area or a good forest fire.
Post by: saudog on January 29, 2009, 04:31:40 PM
I've been reading this thread, and I've got the throw my two cents worth in. GMU 522 has more dead elk in it every year than anywhere else that I'm aware of. There is NO hunting in 522, hasn't been since the mountain blew in 1980. There are way too many elk in that unit all year long, not just in the winter. Mark Smith lives on the edge of that unit and and the Margret and across the river is the Toutle unit. As far "over hunting" goes....well, the Margret and Toutle are draw only hunts for elk. Yes, there is pressure but the woods are mostly closed by Weyerhaeuser for early archery season due to "fire danger". My Dad has been drawn twice and got his points back once because there was NO access. That means you are not allowed to walk in or ride a bike or anything. The Lewis River unit which takes in the entire South side has no late season. Check your game pamphlet. If you want to see hunting pressure go up into the Coweeman or the Ryderwood units during modern firearm elk season! Wow! Those units have early, mid, and late season. I don't even like to go out there that time of year.
I've been to most of the public meetings that are held locally concerning the status of the Volcanic National Monument, (most with little or no notice), and I have been impressed with what Mark is says and what he is trying to do. When he says "preserve", I get the impression he wants to preserve the recreation activities that we currently have. Which meens NO national park, etc. He makes most of his fall/winter income from the hunting public that stays at his Eco-Park. He was a driving factor to get the indians to stop shooting (poaching) the elk around the area in the last 15 years. He has done some good things, and I think his heart is in the right place. He spoke (in opposition) at the last meeting that was held concerning the huge mine that they are trying to push through at the head of the Green River. Right in the middle of the wintering area for that part of the mountain. THAT would be a disaster for those elk. Like I said, I think he is on the right track.
As far as the "St.Helens" herd that I see people refer to....where is it located? Is it ONLY in the blast zone? Or over in the Green River drainage? (We found 33 dead elk there last spring, and those were just the ones we saw). Is it the South Toutle drainage? Is it the Muddy River? (Found 16 dead ones there last spring and we only went up there one afternoon). Or is it the elk that die over in the Smith Creek/Ape Canyon flat? There is a LOT of country surrounding this mountain....and last year was especially hard on them.
I saw the hoof-rot subject brought up too. We spend quite a bit of time up in the hills and I have not seen one case of hoof rot up there. We had seven (that we found) die last spring out behind our house, (Ryderwood unit). They all had hoof rot, and all of them spent a lot of time in the pastures. That seems to be the elk that get hoof-rot the most, at least what I've seen personally. The bull my son took this year had it, and it was feeding in or around the field most of the summer. There aren't any pastures in the Margret or Toutle units. The flats in the Loowit could qualify as a pasture in places I suppose. So maybe they have a hoof-rot issue there. I've lived in the area all of my life and I love it here. I guess I threw in more than my two cents, more like a dime, but this is a subject that is near and dear to my all family and myself.
I too live in this area and hunt it. CastleRocker has sums it up pretty well. There are multiple heards around the mountain and multiple GMU's. They all have different issues but the Loo-Wit unit plays a role in all of the problems. The Toutle, Lewis River, and Margaret units all lead up to the Loo-Wit. Development around all of these units have limited the wintering areas and logging mismanagement (overspraying in the private timberlands and underlogging in the national forest) has limited the food further. Underhunting around the mountain has lead to overpopulation.
All of these issues combined with back-to-back winters that are perfectly suited to winter kill (snow falling early and oftern and then late into the spring) has lead to the situation at hand.
The thing that disappoints the most is that there was no mention in the recent proposals of modifying the hunting seasons around the mountain to try and fix the problem. I'm all for the grass roots efforts that are taking place and I appriciate the input from those that are close to the situation.
Post by: saudog on January 29, 2009, 04:38:50 PM
All I know is from reading this thread is that the few people that are really pushing for this guy all seem to be new to the sight and are all pretty ill tempered?!?! What is with that???
What I have gathered is that the people that are for helping this cause are close to the area and hunt up there. If you are not familiar with the situation it is hard to understand. I'm not saying people that don't live/hunt there shouldn't comment but they should realize that the issues aren't black and white.
I would agree that bbarnes has a hard time displaying where he is really coming from with his movement but I know he is pro-hunting, doesn't want the elk to just starve up there and die, and he is against turning the area into a National Park ala the Mt. Rainier experiance.
Post by: FrankDown on January 29, 2009, 05:20:50 PM
I started writing letters, emails, and making calls about 8 years ago and strted advocating pro trapping, fishing, and hunting issues (guns included). I want to continue to be able to hunt, fish, and trap (and own and use firearms responsibly). I want my children to be able to hunt, fish, and trap (and have strted them on it already). I dont think its too much to ask to know a position on a group before I send them money. Theres a lot of anti hunting and animal use groups that want to stop the taking of game. They may advocate the health of animals (which I have no problems with) but they want to stop hunting and management. I dont want to fund those types of groups or issues. Im not angry about this, I just want to know his positions.
Post by: colockumelk on January 29, 2009, 07:10:57 PM
"If you are not part of the solution your part of the problem"
What are you doing to insure that there will be elk available to hunt in the future?
Also, if you have got the hook up on Alfalfa for $150 a ton why don't you give the guy a call!
I am definately not part of the problem. I don't have any hookups. All he has to do is buy his hay in Ellensburg and he can get it for that cheap. You ask what am I doin to insure there are elk in the future. Myself and Frank are putting together a group to put a stop to all the Indian poaching that goes on for starters. So maybe the mature bulls will make it through the winter without being shot off the back of a snowmobile. What are you doing to insure that there will be elk available to hunt in the future?
Post by: Tom Tamer on January 29, 2009, 07:12:02 PM
Post by: gasman on January 29, 2009, 08:45:20 PM
I keep seeing over and over the talk of too long of hunting seasons, yes that would contribute if it were an over populated hunt, but that isn't the case there are too few permits given out and if it is hard hunted how many really get far off any road? What happens back east when they get over run by whitetails? they kill off the population until it can equalize oout to the habitat it lives in. Thw WDFW is failing to control the population in a manner that is for positive conservation of this herd. I still feel they fail to admit this and with presures from an ignorant anti hunting populus. Until they go in aclear out the herd to a managable level we'll just be throwing away money on feed that could be used in other areas :twocents:
Good point, many areas back east have a bag limit of multiple bag limit for harvesting the over abundunce of wildlife.
Post by: bbarnes on January 29, 2009, 09:08:52 PM
The blame falls on the WDFW. They are allowing over persuit of these animals.
I think we are on the same team here.
"Our vision would be to secure a future of recreational opportunities for our wilderness areas in Southwest Washington for hunting, snowmobiling, horseback riding, hiking, ATV riding, etc."
-Mt. Saint Helens Rescue
Post by: bbarnes on January 29, 2009, 09:25:39 PM
Raising awareness is one thing and bringing up habitat loss and such is something I agree with. However, blaming us hunters for being part of the problem, when our purchases, fund habitat, and our game taking relieves some of the pressure on less habitat, is wrong! >:(
You want to point the blame, point it where it belongs, at the government, and the liberal mentality. Elk need food, they eat grass. Grass will not grow in standing timber, only in open areas, clearcuts, etc..... Ban logging in this country and the elk habitat dies. The reason elk have flourished in years past is due to logging operations clearing the land, so grass can grow until the newly planted trees grow. By the time new trees kill off the grass and vegetation, there are new clearcuts, and open areas with lots of feed. It is funny(not really) that most of the starving elk are coming out of the National Forest???? While elk on Weyerhauser and other private timber company land are flourishing for the most part????
Guess I need to get off my soapbox now.
I agree HuntBear, that a lot of environmentalist's have paralyzed the logging industry in this country. But that is due in part to poor logging practices. There needs to be a happy medium. Timber owners should be responsible for the fish and wildlife on their property. They should be creating new habitat and allowing access to hunters to hunt these animals that are owned by the state tax payers.
There maybe more elk on the Weyerhauser and Private Timber Company Land but they are not healthy. A reduction in antler size, hoof rot and joint degeneration in these elk, lead me to believe that there is something else (besides starvation) that is wrong with these animals. And since there hasn't been a study done on these elk since the mid 80's, how will we ever know what is really wrong with them.
We appreciate your comments and your support in keeping our public land public.
Post by: Skinner on January 29, 2009, 09:29:13 PM
Post by: bbarnes on January 29, 2009, 09:44:48 PM
Can you answer any of the concerns that we are asking about? We all want to help the elk, but we don't want to shoot ourselves in the foot either.Frank down. I don't think we would be shooting ourselves in the foot for lending a helping hand to this natural resource.Thanks B Barnes keeping our public lands public.
Post by: KillzElk on January 29, 2009, 09:48:05 PM
Post by: FrankDown on January 29, 2009, 09:52:28 PM
I consideer it shooting myself in the foot to give money to someone who badmouths hunters, who are not the responsible party in your issue to begin with.
You can use the starving elk point to try to make me feel guilty but you are advocating anti hunting in your guise to save the elk.
This still hasnt answered anything or addressed the issue that he blames hunters for being responsible for starving the elk.
Post by: Huntbear on January 29, 2009, 10:15:10 PM
HuntBear,
The blame falls on the WDFW. They are allowing over persuit of these animals.
I think we are on the same team here.
"Our vision would be to secure a future of recreational opportunities for our wilderness areas in Southwest Washington for hunting, snowmobiling, horseback riding, hiking, ATV riding, etc."
-Mt. Saint Helens Rescue
I agree to a point, but your video says over hunting, not that the WDFW are to blame, that to me and even to my liberal anti hunting aquaintances means hunters are to blame.. maybe fix that, so that it does not sound like you are blaming the hunters. As for over pursuit, in the Coweeman, and Winston, maybe, but remember, most of those elk only see hunters on weekends when the gates are open. As for the Lewis, that unit is the unit I have hunted the most over my life for elk. I hunt there when I can due to lack of hunting pressure. Because I can get up in the hills and never see another hunter. Now, the Margaret, and Toutle are draw only, with very limited access. The Loowit is where all the Local elk go to get away from hunters. They then keg up in there with limited food, and the WDFW thinks it is great.
And we just sit by and let the WDFW keep killing off our resources. We get fined and a prison sentence for killing elk out of season, maybe we should charge Olympia and throw a few of them in jail.
I am not saying what you are doing is wrong. I just have a real issue with what you put on YouTube, and your wording on why this happens.
As for all the joint problems, etc.... maybe they need to quit spraying pesticides and fertilizers... they never used to do that, and all was well.
As for hoof rot, any animal that lives in a wet, swampy environment or stands in wet, mucky, muddy ground will get it(even people). I have seen blacktail that live in the swampy areas, with it. Heck, I have seen horses get it standing in the corral when it got muddy.
I do know that the federal logging practices ie... not logging at all, contributes to all of this. One part of the Lewis unit that I love to hunt, was being logged piece at a time for about 5 years in a row, then the spotted owl sh!t came along, and other liberal agendas. They quit logging in that area, now the elk population is dropping there, due to lack of feed, open spaces (that elk need) and no winter graze, because they quit logging. Then the Forest Service does land swaps with private timber companies, and the cycle starts all over again.
Then you add in the people (and I am not bashing here) that ride their motorcycles on our trail systems, some in prime elk calving areas, or summer feeding grounds, or breeding areas, or wintering areas. Maybe those motorcycles get the animals worked up too????? Keep them from the peace and quiet!
Now, lets talk snowmobilers. Again, not bashing anyone, but they want to run around on their piece of the mountain too. What does that do for the health of the wintering elk population????
How about cross country skiers??? Summer hikers and campers in calving/feeding areas???? Or, how about people taking pack trains into the mountains? Are they not upsetting the elk as well????
All I am saying is that is not just a hunting issue.... yes, we are the ones fighting the cause, but we are not the only people using the resources, and "stressing" the elk herds.
We may be fighting the same fight, but the words we all use have to be carefully chosen, otherwise, we are giving the wrong impressions to people everywhere, especially when it is on YouTube, and the internet.
Post by: bbarnes on January 29, 2009, 10:39:21 PM
Ok KillzElk, from my experience dealing with special interest groups and wording here is my take on teh way his website it worded and what his words are.
Mt Helens preservation - (The name states preservation which means no use by definition) Preservation means no use. No hunting, no target shooting, no hiking, no or limited camping, etc.
His wording in the video states that hunters are a predominate cause of the starvation.
This is my interpretation of his words directly from his mouth and website. I am not the only one that apparently thinks this also.
His heart may be inthe right place, but his words are not. If he in fact wants to help conservation methods to help the elk and get that help from hunters and outdoorsmen perhaps a better angle can be approached. As it stands it sounds to me like the many hundreds of animal rights websites that seek to keep hunters out of "their" areas.
I asked him to reiterate his views on this site and in emails and it has been skirted. So until I am sure I am not funding an animal rights agenda I cannot support him. I can do what I can do, but I cant fund animal rights lobbys who alrady gain 300 million dollars a year to keep us out of "their" areas. 300 million dollars will buy a lot of hay and alfalfa but generally the money doesnt go to these kinds of issues, it goes to building corporate offices, summer homes, and BMWs.
It is unfortunate that the elk are in the position they are in and that a certain area will only hold so many animals. That being said we dont know, or I dont know, what they push for in their "private" meetings. We have enough problems without supporting groups that are fighting against our privileges to hunt. Once again it is unfortunate that the elk are stuck in this predicament, but if the groups are not supportive of hunting and conservation methods then perhaps another group or agency should be targeted to help.
Once again if someone from the groups wants to clarify what they are saying I will listen. I have asked a couple times already to clarify their stance on hunting and sportmsmen but have received nothing. To me however their mission statement is unclear on what side of the fence they are on as far as hunting and sportsmen are concerned.
Frank down.We are in complete support of hunting and conservation,any good hunter is a conservationist,we are the eyes and voice for these recouces that cant speak out.My group is made up of sportsman that dont want to see locked gates and subdivsions in our forest areas where we hunt camp and shoot our guns. I would also like to add we are not a animal rights group,we just think theres a over presuit problem.What we mean is wdfw selling tags and multiple seasons in one unit trying to bail themselves out of debt.This is what we call combat hunting, not a quality hunt.I hope this has clarified your concerns thanks B Barnes keeping our public land public. PS by the way i drive FORDS
Post by: Guns4Fun on January 29, 2009, 10:47:24 PM
Please clarify.
Post by: KillzElk on January 29, 2009, 10:50:52 PM
Post by: KillzElk on January 29, 2009, 10:51:54 PM
Thank You.
Post by: Huntbear on January 29, 2009, 10:56:37 PM
Post by: KillzElk on January 29, 2009, 11:01:57 PM
Anyone else notice how many questions this bbarnes is not answering??? Or the fact that KillzElk has only posted to this thread and is like the voice of bbarnes?!?! Something is very fishy about this whole thing!
I guess the reason I am only on this thread is because I was at the snow park snowmobiling at the MT. received some info on this subject starving elk. I am a hunter , I want to hunt every year a healthy animal this is what interested me . Guess I am a newbie here I will find another topic that interest me also..
Thank you so much. :mgun:
Post by: KillzElk on January 29, 2009, 11:06:24 PM
Post by: Little Dave on January 29, 2009, 11:15:16 PM
This is just my opinion, but I do not feel comfortable supporting organizations which do not appreciate and respect the important distinction between the terms conservation and preservation.
Post by: KillzElk on January 29, 2009, 11:23:16 PM
Post by: bbarnes on January 29, 2009, 11:28:39 PM
"If you are not part of the solution your part of the problem"
What are you doing to insure that there will be elk available to hunt in the future?
Also, if you have got the hook up on Alfalfa for $150 a ton why don't you give the guy a call!
Guns4Fun.Give us a call if you can get abetter price MSHR BBARNES
Post by: KillzElk on January 29, 2009, 11:40:29 PM
"If you are not part of the solution your part of the problem"
What are you doing to insure that there will be elk available to hunt in the future?
Also, if you have got the hook up on Alfalfa for $150 a ton why don't you give the guy a call!
Guns4Fun.Give us a call if you can get abetter price MSHR BBARNES
I am confused here who do I call, You don't make any sense here.. Call you or Guns4Fun? Call you at what number ?
Post by: bbarnes on January 30, 2009, 12:10:27 AM
"If you are not part of the solution your part of the problem"
What are you doing to insure that there will be elk available to hunt in the future?
Also, if you have got the hook up on Alfalfa for $150 a ton why don't you give the guy a call!
I am definitely not part of the problem. I don't have any hookups. All he has to do is buy his hay in El lensburg and he can get it for that cheap. You ask what am I doing to insure there are elk in the future. Myself and Frank are putting together a group to put a stop to all the Indian poaching that goes on for starters. So maybe the mature bulls will make it through the winter without being shot off the back of a snowmobile. What are you doing to insure that there will be elk available to hunt in the future?
Colockumelk.Myself and many other have attended every planning and development meeting in the two counties that surround the mt .We have helped reduce much of these developments and stopped many, raising concerns about habitat winter areas and breeding areas,for the wild life.We have been on a full on protest about this area turning into,a national park. I have collected over 12,500 signatures saying no national parks to keep our public lands public so we can continue to use this land.The Columbia land trust has just purchased 20,000 acres open to the public,with our help and we have also participated in many parades raising awareness.The most important thing we did was took state politions on two field trips on the north and south side to educate them on the problems and mismanagement.
Post by: FrankDown on January 30, 2009, 12:32:32 AM
I really hope that everything works out with the elk, that theres no national park status made there, and everybody manages their private property fo rthe benefit of the environment as best that can be done. That being said it may seemt hat you are standing on both sides of the fence, and its quite possible that neither side (hunters nor antis) want to associate or donate to the other group as they are the "enemies" of each other. Maybe reconsider your PR and what side of the fence you want to be standing on. In the video it looks liek you arent necessarily on the same side of the fence that we are standing on.
Post by: SHANE(WA) on January 30, 2009, 02:33:07 AM
Post by: bullchaser on January 30, 2009, 10:24:02 AM
Anyone else think it is fishy that there are quite a few newbies on here that are only posting to this thread......and are all for bbarnes.....and somehow completely understand what he is saying?????
Sorry, but I am going with my gut on this one.....something isn't right!
1+
Post by: saudog on January 30, 2009, 10:52:55 AM
Anyone else think it is fishy that there are quite a few newbies on here that are only posting to this thread......and are all for bbarnes.....and somehow completely understand what he is saying?????
Sorry, but I am going with my gut on this one.....something isn't right!
1+
I am not a new member and have no association with bbarnes. I have had discussions with hunters and locals in the SW Washington area around the mountain and they were all for his efforts to a man/woman. There is not a huge contingent of SW washington hunters on this web site and I know for a fact there aren't that many that hunt the mt. st. helens area year in/year out. I trust the people that are local to the area and see the issues first hand every day.
Post by: Guns4Fun on February 02, 2009, 08:09:12 PM
Post by: elkangel on February 02, 2009, 11:54:08 PM
So, let me spell it out real clear, so there is no mistakes about what is going on. We are supplemental feeding elk at Mount St. Helens. Why, because we feel it is the right thing to do. It cost us $14.00 a bale for alfalfa, on the west side of the mountains. We feed 8 bales a day, that is $112 a day for feed. We will be feeding for 50 more days that means we are looking to raise $5600 just for alfalfa. We appreciate any donation you make to the Mt. St. Helens Preservation Society, it is tax deductible, we are a 501 3C organization since 1998 and 110% of every dollar goes to feeding. No one get paid for gas or storage or anything else, we use all volunteers. You are invited to come observe a feeding, but we have to keep it limited so not to upset the elk, so you have to reserve a day and time, am or pm feeding.
So, if you don't want to help that is fine. But, if you do great, for questions please, contact me at Ecoparkman@yahoo.com or through our web sight. But please, don't keep trying to make out that BBarnes, Myself and anyone else that is involved is some kind of bad person doing this for some dark secret plan to stop hunters, or for our own benefit, because you would be sadly mistaken. Those of you who know and have met me know my dedication and passion. As for the five or six of you guys that keep sharing your negative view regarding this posting, I have a suggestion. Why don't you find another subject to apply your superior logic and english interpretive skill to, it is obvious you have no intention to support this cause with any positive input, just negative talk, and I can get enough of that off-line.
To the rest of you, I hope you don't take offense, I figured it would make more sense to be blunt, and upfront and to the point. I never did like these dam secret user name web sights, if you are afraid of to admit who you are, then how can we trust what you have to say.
Good Day, mark smith
Post by: ELKBURGER on February 03, 2009, 05:15:51 AM
Post by: FrankDown on February 03, 2009, 09:27:48 AM
I dont know you. You dont know me. All I know is what you say. I have a firm grip on the English language and understand that "hunters are the cause of the elk starving", means that the elk are starving, because of hunters, so hunters must be bad.
Quote
I am sorry that some hunters are more concerned with words than action.We have nothing else to go by than words.
Quote
Men who would rather sit on their computer typing their superior intellect and debating on what some one said, or trying to figure out what they meant.Be clear with what you say then, and we wont have to interpret it. As the video clearly says "hunters are the cause of the starvation".
I think that all of us herre are on the same page though. We all want whats best for the wildlife in Washington, as well as other areas. We also want to correct the wrongs that the public have introduced, the government has introduced, the treaty has created, and more. It doesn't make sense to argue amongst ourselves, as it accomplishes nothing.
Once again, I applaud your actions that you have taken to help the elk and stand up for the rights of hunters and the health of our wildlife. However I dont see blaming the starving elk on hunters.
Post by: Guns4Fun on February 03, 2009, 10:12:41 AM
Post by: Guns4Fun on February 04, 2009, 10:39:08 AM
Good Day, mark smith
Ya, like this is even a real name?!?! Mark Smith....LMAO Hi Mark....I am John Doe! Nice to meet you!!! :stirthepot:
Wow....you must think their is some real conspiracy going on here.....you don't even believe that his real name is Mark Smith???? Why don't you check out the website he lists. www.ecoparkresort.com :bash:
It is people like you that make "newbies" not even want to participate in forums like these. Either you are for feeding the elk or not. Move on :beatdeadhorse:
Post by: FrankDown on February 04, 2009, 12:37:28 PM
We are against contributing to an organization that publicy decries that hunters are starving the elk.
Post by: Guns4Fun on February 04, 2009, 02:18:10 PM
I completely agree and respect your stand. I would not support an anti-hunting group either. Fortunately, Mt. Saint Helens Rescue is not an anti-hunting group and in my oppinion BBarnes should better clarify his video and where he really stands.
In my oppinion:
The elk are starving due to lack of food....pure and simple. Because of starvation, over pursuit by humans (hunters included-but definately not placing blame), lack of habitat and other environmental issues, there are dead elk. As hunters we need to come together and find a solution.
Is the solution feeding the elk???? I don't know. As it was said in an earlier post it really is only a short term fix.
Post by: FrankDown on February 04, 2009, 02:24:50 PM
Quote
over pursuit by humans (hunters included-but definately not placing blame),
If hunters over pursued and over filled tags then there would be a deficit of elk. Would there not? It is not apparent that hunters are the cause, yet mismangement is. If hunters filled appropriate levels of tags then there would be a more level population of elk to carry on a given area.
Post by: ELKBURGER on February 04, 2009, 02:58:59 PM
Post by: FrankDown on February 04, 2009, 04:41:35 PM
Post by: elkangel on February 05, 2009, 07:42:11 AM
Addressing you comment if over pursuit there would be less animals, that shows you do not understand the GMU's and Access issues in the St Helens Area. I would have thought that a guy who has over 405 comments on this sight and appears to be well educated would have put more research in to the facts than following fiction. I suggest you look a the MtStHelensSociety.org web sight. To read more on our anti hunting group.
I only have one other question for you FRANKDOWNER, what is you solution regarding the elk problem at Mt. St. Helens?
Post by: JoeVon on February 05, 2009, 10:00:25 AM
Good Day, mark smith
Ya, like this is even a real name?!?! Mark Smith....LMAO Hi Mark....I am John Doe! Nice to meet you!!! :stirthepot:
Seriously. Check out the links provided, Moron.
Frankdown, I see where the rub occurs with the wording in the Video, but honestly, its pretty clear that neither Barnes, Mark Smith, nor the Mt. St. Helens Preservation Society are in any way "Anti". Being as poorly worded as it may, it seems they are trying to show that generous season setting by the WDFW puts the animals energy reserves going into Winter at a lower level. Thats just the way I see it, but I see how it could be taken as a stab to Hunters like ourselves.
I've known Mark personally for about 10 years, and can tell you, in my opinion, that he's done more for the area on the Westside of the Mountain than any one man ever has. I can only hope that Mark and Company will continue on with their mission, of PRESERVING our animals, which in turn PRESERVES our right to hunt for years to come.
Thanks Mark
Josef VonDracek
Post by: callthewild on February 05, 2009, 10:17:49 AM
this pretty much show this is legit.
Post by: JoeVon on February 05, 2009, 10:21:53 AM
http://www.theolympian.com/topstories/story/748822.html
this pretty much show this is legit.
My thoughts exactly. If Mark wanted to put an "Anti-Hunter" spin on it, this would have been the perfect oppurtunity to. Lucky for us, he's on our side.
Post by: callthewild on February 05, 2009, 10:25:12 AM
Post by: JoeVon on February 05, 2009, 10:37:30 AM
Post by: runamuk on February 05, 2009, 10:51:40 AM
In todays climate of animal rights and over legislation of our personal freedoms there are many who get suspicious of certain vocabulary. It is not the words themselves but the fact that they have been hijacked by a movement that wishes to do away with all animal ownership and use. I am very involved in the legislation attacking dog's and dog breeders, I have removed certain words from my vocabulary because they only promote animal rights agenda's.
I think what is happening to elk all over this state is a travesty and cannot figure out why all of our herds are not receiving more press :dunno: maybe elk are too boring, who knows.....
If you want to attract more help for your cause accepting a bit of criticism is necessary, and then using that criticism to strengthen your position will gain you more followers. If helping the elk is the ultimate goal wouldn't spending 5 minutes cutting 5-6 frames of video be a better use of time than arguing your point with the people you just blamed?
Post by: FrankDown on February 05, 2009, 10:57:10 AM
Quote
We need fewer elk, a hunting plan that provides a regulated harvest of elk and more habitat," Smith said.This sounds a lot better than saying hunters are starving them.
Quote
wouldn't spending 5 minutes cutting 5-6 frames of video be a better use of time than arguing your point with the people you just blamed?This is what we have been trying to convey throughout this whole thread.
I doubt that name calling can help you get your point across.
Post by: JoeVon on February 05, 2009, 11:04:37 AM
1. Increase summer/fall forage through thinning/logging. Much of the Margret is planted with Douglas Fir that is all the same age, and doesn't allow much sunlight to the ground for forage to grow. Where they have thinned looks great, tons of food, but not much of it has been thinned.
2. Work on herd management through hunting, maybe more cow tags, maybe more bull tags? I'm not sure on this because I'm not a bio...Try to find a good Bull to Cow ratio, that the forest is able to sustain and go from there??? I'm not sure where to start on this one.
3. Increase Winter habitat. The North Fork of the Toutle runs where ever it chooses on the mudflow. Areas that once grew grass are able to be wiped out in no time due to ever changing river channels.
These are just a couple of my dumb ideas. I'd just like to see some commitment from our Game Department in fixing the situation. Like Mark said in his article, "I'm not in favor of using starvation as a management tool". Its time for them to step up the plate and offer some solutions..
Sorry I called you a "moron", remington300mag. I guess I should have said smart@ss... lol
Post by: bbarnes on February 05, 2009, 04:26:59 PM
By Chester Allen | The Olympian • Published February 05, 2009
Comments (30) Recommend (1) Photos
For the past three winters, Mark Smith has fed hay to hungry elk near Mount St. Helens.
Photo Gallery:
House Bill 1885 on feeding wild animals
What's next
The House Committee on Agriculture and Natural Resources has not yet scheduled a hearing on this bill. To keep track of when a hearing will occur, go to www.leg.wa.gov/House/Committees/AGNR/agendas.htm
Smith, an owner of the Eco Park Resort near Mount St. Helens, said he knows that feeding is not the solution to the overpopulation of elk there.
"But I'm not in favor of using starvation as a management tool," Smith said Wednesday afternoon. He said he feeds 600 to 800 pounds of hay to as many as 100 elk each day.
Smith's winter feeding program for elk will end if a bill before the House Committee on Agriculture and Natural Resources becomes law.
House Bill 1885 would forbid private citizens from feeding elk, deer, bears, raccoons, opossums, cougars, wolves, coyotes, wild turkeys and skunks.
It still would be legal to feed birds at backyard bird feeders.
Elk plan
"We need fewer elk, a hunting plan that provides a regulated harvest of elk and more habitat," Smith said.
In the meantime, HB1885 — if it is passed as written — would doom some animals to starvation until the herd comes into balance with the amount of feed that the land can provide, Smith said.
The bill was introduced to stop private citizens who feed bears, raccoons and other animals that can become troublesome when they get used to humans — and to the food they receive from humans, said Rep. Brian Blake, D-Aberdeen, who is the chairman of the Committee on Agriculture and Natural Resources.
"I'm aware of one person who feeds 100 pounds of dog food a week to a large black bear," Blake said. "That's inappropriate; black bears are dangerous."
Feeding wildlife is a bad idea because the animals get used to humans providing their food, and they can quickly become a problem, said Dave Ware, game division manager for the state Department of Fish and Wildlife.
"One neighbor feeding animals can become a problem for other people," Ware said.
Fish and Wildlife does feed wild elk at nine feeding stations on the east side of the Cascades — from near Ellensburg to near Yakima, Ware said.
Those feeding stations were created to help elk that have lost their winter range to farms, orchards and ranches, he said.
Next page >>
Post by: runamuk on February 05, 2009, 07:41:48 PM
Quote
"I'm aware of one person who feeds 100 pounds of dog food a week to a large black bear," Blake said. "That's inappropriate; black bears are dangerous."
I'm sorry but an entire bill because one doofus feeds a bear :dunno: :dunno: with any luck that situation will be self resolving ;)
If people are so ignorant as to feed dangerous animals and then get hurt by said animal I call that evolution, survival of the fittest etc... we cannot CANNOT legislate against stupidity :bash: :bash:
Post by: Guns4Fun on February 05, 2009, 09:12:31 PM
Quote"I'm aware of one person who feeds 100 pounds of dog food a week to a large black bear," Blake said. "That's inappropriate; black bears are dangerous."
I'm sorry but an entire bill because one doofus feeds a bear :dunno: :dunno: with any luck that situation will be self resolving ;)
If people are so ignorant as to feed dangerous animals and then get hurt by said animal I call that evolution, survival of the fittest etc... we cannot CANNOT legislate against stupidity :bash: :bash:
I couldn't agree more. :rockin:
Post by: elkangel on February 06, 2009, 09:50:42 PM
I hope this will help to provide you with more information and see that what we are doing is real. Thanks to all of you who have supported us in the past and hope you will continue to support us in the future. With your help we can continue to make things happen.
Mark Smith.
Post by: jackelope on February 06, 2009, 10:08:05 PM
thank you.
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 07, 2009, 07:36:41 AM
#8 Alfalfa is $300/ton or $20/bale
wow hay is spendy where you are at thats for sure!
yeah it is
http://portland.craigslist.org/clc/for/1024474006.html
Price comparison?
Post by: ELKBURGER on February 07, 2009, 07:47:47 AM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 07, 2009, 07:59:07 AM
Alfalfa comes in larger bales, approx. 120-130# bales. The grass hay on craigslist is probably 55-70# bales. Alfalfa has much higher nutritional value. So the local price they're getting isnt bad, for the west side.
My point exactly ;)
Post by: runamuk on February 07, 2009, 08:18:02 AM
Post by: colockumelk on February 08, 2009, 03:04:34 PM
Post by: daveenlola on February 09, 2009, 06:18:21 PM
Quote
You want to point the blame, point it where it belongs, at the government, and the liberal mentality. Elk need food, they eat grass. Grass will not grow in standing timber, only in open areas, clearcuts, etc..... Ban logging in this country and the elk habitat dies. The reason elk have flourished in years past is due to logging operations clearing the land, so grass can grow until the newly planted trees grow. By the time new trees kill off the grass and vegetation, there are new clearcuts, and open areas with lots of feed. It is funny(not really) that most of the starving elk are coming out of the National Forest? While elk on Weyerhauser and other private timber company land are flourishing for the most part?
:yeah:
Post by: KillzElk on February 10, 2009, 11:36:23 PM
Quote:
To all of you who still doubt my name and what we are doing at Mt.St. Helens please, Google Mt. St. Helens, and see today's story up dates. Or, you can check the Olympian, Longview Daily News, Seattle Times and Oregonian, just search for Mt. St. Helens, or starving elk, or HB 1885 stories.
I hope this will help to provide you with more information and see that what we are doing is real. Thanks to all of you who have supported us in the past and hope you will continue to support us in the future. With your help we can continue to make things happen.
Mark Smith.
Looks like I was gone for two weeks on vacation & the talk is still about ???? Newbies , Alfalfa ,Fake Names Mark Smith is real.. I feel this post has raised a few eyes about every aspect that is going on, Great articles Mark. I also feel after I have watched the videos again I do understand what you all are hearing. The Animals have died in the past & will die again from the same problem this year. If the state would do there job, they might be able to control SOME not all of the starvation that is going on , Looks to me that they are more worried about there pocket book & driving around pointing blame ..
Post by: KillzElk on March 24, 2009, 10:33:16 AM
By GRANT McOMIE for Kgw.com
Grant McOmie: Managing wild NW elk
http://www.kgw.com/video/index.html?nvid=344842&shu=1
Mt St Helens has long been a drawing card for visitors who enjoy the volcano’s majestic beauty.
Video: Starving elk herd
But in recent years, a tragic scene of wildlife starvation has clouded the view.
It’s been a struggle to keep elk alive during winter on a state-managed wildlife refuge called the Loowit Wildlife Unit inside the Mt St Helens Wildlife Area.
One man is trying to save as many animals as he can from a terrible fate.
Mark Smith never dreamed he would have so many neighbors show up on his Toutle River property for lunch.
Smith’s acreage is located in the shadow of Mt St Helens and a lingering winter hasn’t left him much choice but to feed the eighty or so hungry elk that show up each day.
Grant McOmie
Hungry elk at Mt. St. Helens
He began feeding the elk last December and has he placed flakes of the hay out on the ground he noted: “We call it a supplemental feeding because we try to get 4-6 pounds of protein to each animal a day. I wouldn’t do this if I felt there was a choice. For me, there simply isn’t one.”
Wildlife starvation has been a fact of the “wild”-life near Mt St Helens for years.
But in 2006, it was also a terribly slow death for scores of majestic elk that starved on the Loowit Unit of the Mt St Helens Wildlife Area.
Smith said it was a winter he’ll never forget because the grisly scene changed his mind about feeding wildlife forever.
He believes that the state should do the same on the refuge as he does on his own property: feed elk in winter to prevent them from starving: “People want to see animals, they want to learn about them and if you give that opportunity, especially along this area where we have such an attraction, I think it could be a greater benefit. In fact, the benefits from that program – as they have found out at Jewell – strongly outweigh the problems.”
The Jewell Wildlife Area in Oregon’s Clatsop County is home to nearly 200 elk in the winter. It’s a place where feeding has been a daily routine for nearly forty years.
In fact, visitors can go along and lend a hand, enjoy close up views to the massive animals and learn a valuable lesson about wildlife too.
Unlike the Loowit Refuge at Mt St Helens, the elk at Jewell are fed to prevent damage on neighboring properties; that is if they weren't on the refuge, they'd be eating on neighboring private properties.”
Still, one thing is certain according to Brian Swearingen, the Jewell Wildlife Area manager, when you provide adequate habitat the elk respond and the people respond too.
“It’s a very good thing for our agency,” he said. “It's popular with thousands of people and it's one of the showcases that our agency uses to explain to folks. Plus, it’s easy to head for Jewell and see the elk.”
But Sondra Jonker, Washington Wildlife Department manager, disagrees with that strategy for the Mt St Helens Wildlife Area. She insists that winter-feeding would pose health risks to the elk.
Moreover, “You're artificially concentrating the animals, changes their behavior, increased likelihood of disease transmission and so for a variety of reasons we don't want to do that. We do understand that (starvation) may be tough to look at, but we also recognize that is a normal process.”
Jonker told KGW that they have chosen to improve the available elk habitat and grow more forage food for the elk to eat. In fact, this spring they will plant 14,000 trees to help stabilize the landscape along the river and prevent erosion.
Brian Calkins, a Washington Wildlife Dept biologist said that habitat is key to survival for the Loowit elk herd: “That’s the long term solution to erosion control - the structures that we'll be building are just to get those trees established so they’re large enough to hold the bank together.”
Still, Mark Smith argues that thousands of dollars have already been poured into habitat projects on the refuge over the last two decades – and many of the projects never took root
He said that a regular and consistent winter-feeding plan would stop starvation in its tracks and perhaps attract more visitors to the area too.
“What I’m trying to do is what I believe is the right thing, he noted. “I don’t think they need to be any more abused than they already have been.”
The Washington Department of Wildlife plans to offer volunteer work sessions on the Loowit Wildlife Area this spring. Volunteers are needed for tree planting projects.
Post by: elkhuntingcouple on March 24, 2009, 08:43:19 PM
Post by: Guns4Fun on March 24, 2009, 09:23:48 PM
Are you still in need of donations? Will the Rocky Mt. Elk Foundation help? Can we call at the phone@ posted oon Eco Park site? to me it is totally sick to let animals starve. If another animal takes it as prey that is one thing but to let them die a slow death is just not right.
:yeah:
Post by: bbarnes on March 24, 2009, 09:55:31 PM
Post by: Buckrub on March 25, 2009, 10:51:36 AM
The wdfw is totally at blame here.
By trying to create a "quality" westside hunt in order to sell permits and have an elk viewing area, the state has damaged the herd.
The herd size has exceeded its carrying capacity. Feeding the elk is not what this herd needs, it needs proper management to control the herd size.
Length of hunting season or prolonged hunting pressure may have an effect but this area has been locked up with very few permits given out for hunting.
Revenue based hunting permit management doesn't work, not on the east side or west.
Why aren't we feeding elk in the ryderwood? I wonder :bash:
Post by: KillzElk on March 25, 2009, 01:26:37 PM
If you missed it on Friday, February 6, 2009
In fact, the WDFW doesn’t recommend that anyone else feed elk. ... it's never fun for a huter and wildlife enthusiast to see elk starving...
Link:
http://www.tdn.com/articles/2009/02/06/this_day/doc498c6d3e0fc30585387160.txt
Take Two:
http://www.kvnews.com/articles/2009/02/12/news/doc4993296e1751c307073598.txt
Elk Herd Population Needs Better Management Practices.
Washington needs to take care of its natural renewable resources. The public seems to be able to band together and stop "Elmer" from hunting in the forest as a sound game management practice, but when those same animals are starving, where are they? Logging was attacked here in Washington several years ago. Proper logging techniques promote new understory growth for forage of deer, elk, and many other animals. With logging under such scrutiny less of these forage areas are created, and less food has been the result. The anti-hunting community can't stand for a hunter to go into the woods as he has done since the beginning of time and kill a deer or an elk. However, these same people seem to not care when these animals are starving to death, literally, in the winter time. The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife seem to either not have the animals best interest at heart, or have a plan that most others don't understand. It is estimated that 55 percent of the elk herd population has died off in the wintering ranges. With proper management this doesn't need to happen. Letting animals starve to death as a management practice isn't a humane or viable option in managing our natural renewable resources.
Post by: KillzElk on March 25, 2009, 01:34:24 PM
Read it here Hot off the Press :fire.: Wed, Feb 11, 2009 - 10:32 am
Tribe Opposes Increased Elk Hunt Biologist: Herd Is Fragile; Commissioner: Thinning Will Reduce Property Damage...
Go to link here or read below...
http://www.outdoorslc.com/story.php?subaction=showfull&id=1234373577&archive=&start_from=&ucat=5
By Dan Schreiber
dschreiber@chronline.com
Dan Schreiber: (360) 807-8239
A state recommendation for increased elk hunting in East Lewis County has prompted the Puyallup Tribe of Indians to put out a petition aimed at reversing the move, which was prompted in part by residents' damage complaints of trampled yards and gardens.
No solid figure exists for the number of elk that make up the so-called South Rainier herd, which migrate between the mountain and the valley where U.S. Highway 12 passes through Morton, Randle and Packwood. Residents there are accustomed to the roaming and grazing of the animals, which sometimes tromp through fences and hang around the paved areas of the towns.
The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife held meetings over the summer in East County to decide what hunting regulations to set for the 2009-2011 biennium, and concluded in a draft report that it would be appropriate to issue hunting tags for 79 female elk, an increase of about 45 over the area's 2008 threshold.
Barbara Moeller, a biologist for the tribe, says that will diminish the herd that she estimates to be about 1,000 large, especially since the taking of females will reduce its reproductive ability.
"It would be devastating," Moeller said, adding that male elk -- called bulls -- tend to roam away from grouped females, or cows, and their young. "It makes them easy targets. This idea that there are too many is not based on science."
Moeller and state biologists have said there is little interaction between the South Rainier herd and the Mount St. Helens herd, which exploded in numbers following the volcano's 1980 eruption that took down trees and provided plenty of low shrub and berry grazing land.
The Mount St. Helens numbers have increased so much that the state has sponsored programs to feed starving elk and then issue tags to thin the herd until the population becomes naturally sustainable.
Moeller describes the smaller Rainier herd as "fragile," but Lewis County Commissioner Lee Grose doesn't see it that way.
"I think that 39 elk cows will not diminish the herd significantly and it will help with the damage complaints," Grose said.
Grose says he has been characterized as an elk-hater at pubic meetings on the issue, but that he actually loves living with the elk in his East County district. They are a boon for tourism, and it is neat to be near such a majestic animal outside a zoo, Grose said.
As chronicled in this newspaper, Grose had somewhat of a late night altercation with an elk after he was awoken by his wife, who wasn't happy when one of the animals was eating flowers in her garden. After the commissioner wielded a piece of firewood to try to scare off the elk, it rose to its hind legs and one of its hoofs came down on Grose's foot.
Aside from that night, the commissioner said he has enjoyed an amicable relationship with his antlered neighbors.
"People have got me all wrong," Grose said. "They think I hate the elk and I don't hate the elk."
Grose contends that it is inappropriate for an Indian tribe to oppose the hunt, when other Native American individuals are permitted to hunt in East County without tags. Grose isn't sure what tribe they belong to, but their activities are common, he said.
"If we're going to talk about limiting the hunt, let's limit the hunt for the Indians, too," Grose said. "Let's limit the hunt for everyone."
How to Comment
The public comment period on WDFW's proposed hunting regulations ends Feb. 20.
Comments can be sent to: WDFW, Wildlife Program, 600 Capitol Way N. Olympia, WA 98501-1091.
E-mail comments can be sent to wildthing@dfw.wa.gov.
The Web site for the tribe's petition is: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/wdfw-proposing-to-kill-79-more-cow-elk-annually-in-the-packwood-area
Post by: Buckrub on March 25, 2009, 04:39:39 PM
Even though I don't believe feeding the elk is the answer. I do believe we need to help the elk that are there. A bungling wdfw management doesn't mean the elk should starve.
I will help.