Hunting Washington Forum

Other Activities => Fishing => Topic started by: thatdamguy on March 02, 2016, 07:48:15 PM


Advertise Here
Title: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: thatdamguy on March 02, 2016, 07:48:15 PM
Hatcheries are under attack by special interest lawsuits that are threatening to close 150 hatchery programs across Washington. Please sign and share.




http://www.saveourhatcheries.org/petition/save-hatchery-programs/
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Lucky1 on March 02, 2016, 08:22:30 PM
 :tup:
I signed it.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: simondude on March 02, 2016, 09:02:11 PM
Signed it.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: REHJWA on March 02, 2016, 09:08:59 PM
Done
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Mark251 on March 02, 2016, 09:19:39 PM
Done!
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Skillet on March 02, 2016, 09:21:40 PM
 :tup:
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: mossyoak arrow slinger on March 02, 2016, 09:28:25 PM
Signed it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: scottcrb on March 02, 2016, 09:32:34 PM
Signed
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: jasnt on March 02, 2016, 10:22:19 PM
Signed
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: fisheral87 on March 02, 2016, 10:44:16 PM
I don't think some hatcheries in Washington have done as much as other strategies focused on wild fish could, given that hatcheries still make up 90% of the catch.

I'm in the minority, but I'd rather give up fishing salmon in Puget Sound for the next 20 years so my grandkids could have stable wild fisheries.

Al

P.S. Lets start a petition to begin seal and sealion hunting. Without hatcheries those buggers are going to starve to death.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: thatdamguy on March 02, 2016, 11:37:41 PM
I don't think some hatcheries in Washington have done as much as other strategies focused on wild fish could, given that hatcheries still make up 90% of the catch.

I'm in the minority, but I'd rather give up fishing salmon in Puget Sound for the next 20 years so my grandkids could have stable wild fisheries.

Al

P.S. Lets start a petition to begin seal and sealion hunting. Without hatcheries those buggers are going to starve to death.

Shutting down hatcheries hurts everyone. :twocents:  However I completely agree that we need to start killing seals and sealions.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: PolarBear on March 03, 2016, 12:17:27 AM
Done
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: REHJWA on March 03, 2016, 06:48:53 AM
I don't think some hatcheries in Washington have done as much as other strategies focused on wild fish could, given that hatcheries still make up 90% of the catch.

I'm in the minority, but I'd rather give up fishing salmon in Puget Sound for the next 20 years so my grandkids could have stable wild fisheries.

Al

P.S. Lets start a petition to begin seal and sealion hunting. Without hatcheries those buggers are going to starve to death.

These groups that want the hatcheries closed don't want us to fish at all. Look at the way they even attack catch and release....
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Henrydog on March 03, 2016, 06:57:18 AM
Done!
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: fisheral87 on March 03, 2016, 08:57:37 AM
Quote
Shutting down hatcheries hurts everyone. :twocents:

This may be true in the short term but the cost of managing these operation in the long term is not sustainable IMO. In many cases hatcheries are effectively susidized farm raised fish for public consumption. For the amount of time hatcheries have operated in Washington State I feel our expectations of wild fish recovery should be higher than 10% of the take.

I don't support groups that want to take opportunity away, I do think we could do better at managing for sustainable wild fish without hatcheries.

I understand it is not black and white. My understanding is there are some very effective hatcheries that use wild fish for brood stock.

Al
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: REHJWA on March 03, 2016, 09:38:58 AM
Quote
Shutting down hatcheries hurts everyone. :twocents:

This may be true in the short term but the cost of managing these operation in the long term is not sustainable IMO. In many cases hatcheries are effectively susidized farm raised fish for public consumption. For the amount of time hatcheries have operated in Washington State I feel our expectations of wild fish recovery should be higher than 10% of the take.

I don't support groups that want to take opportunity away, I do think we could do better at managing for sustainable wild fish without hatcheries.

I understand it is not black and white. My understanding is there are some very effective hatcheries that use wild fish for brood stock.

Al
The problem with our fisheries is the same with most human interventions, we only manage part of the problem and ignore the ones that become obvious, like predators and habitat destruction. It's 2016 and we still have a major city dumping untreated sewage into the sound.

Agree with you about cost of management but this another example of demand that exceeds the resource. I wish we could support demand with natural reproduction,you can tell the difference at hook up between a wild and hatchery fish. However Humans have had much more successful population growth than any other species on the planet.

Until we improve natural reproduction habitat, the hatcheries do more to reduce the pressure on native resources than harm.


Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Skillet on March 03, 2016, 09:49:00 AM
Quote
Shutting down hatcheries hurts everyone. :twocents:

This may be true in the short term but the cost of managing these operation in the long term is not sustainable IMO. In many cases hatcheries are effectively susidized farm raised fish for public consumption. For the amount of time hatcheries have operated in Washington State I feel our expectations of wild fish recovery should be higher than 10% of the take.

I don't support groups that want to take opportunity away, I do think we could do better at managing for sustainable wild fish without hatcheries.

I understand it is not black and white. My understanding is there are some very effective hatcheries that use wild fish for brood stock.

Dams.  Lions.  Tribal, commercial and sport take.  High river temps, high ocean water temps (the "blob") that bring more predators farther north.  There are many factors working against the salmon, most of which are outside of the control of the WDFW, BPA and upstream power producers.  You cannot manage a wild stock to former glory unless you have the authority to effect the changes needed to do so.  No single entity has that authority at this time, and short of conversion to a dictatorship, won't.  If we want the opportunity to fish in the future we need to invest in that by keeping the hatcheries going. 10% is just a reflection of a number based on another number.  The hatcheries have supplied the near record-breaking runs we've seen in the last few years, giving everybody the opportunity to go fishing.  10% of a record run is a darn sight better than 100% of a handful of fish. 

Hatchery fish are NOT farm fish - not by a long shot. I do not worship at the altar of wild fish for wild fish's sake.  They both went out through the river, they both survived the treacherous ocean for several years, and they both made it back up to the place they were spawned.  How is that not a successful fish in nature's eyes?  Who is a better judge of what is a "good" fish vs. a "bad" fish - nature itself, or some extreme elitist political group like Wild Fish Conservancy? IMHO, we need the hatcheries going, keep doing what needs to be done to ensure strong returns that provide an opportunity for everybody to partake in the bounty that nature has to offer.  The different pressures on the wild fish that are outside of WDFW's control are too great to depend on the wild fish to repopulate on their own.

Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Da stump on March 03, 2016, 01:05:41 PM
signed, next we need some action on sea lions
 :'(
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: npaull on March 03, 2016, 01:22:16 PM
Quote
I don't think some hatcheries in Washington have done as much as other strategies focused on wild fish could, given that hatcheries still make up 90% of the catch.

I'm in the minority, but I'd rather give up fishing salmon in Puget Sound for the next 20 years so my grandkids could have stable wild fisheries.

Al

+1.

 I HATE hatcheries! Put the money into making the streams healthy - they can make MORE than enough fish to sustain a healthy fishery without an inefficient, government-subsidized waste of taxpayer money to keep weak, unhealthy, genetically inferior fish around. It's a backwards scheme to make money for a few on the taxpayer's dime at the expense of actually getting back to a healthy fishery.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: huntnphool on March 03, 2016, 01:53:05 PM
I'm in the minority, but I'd rather give up fishing salmon in Puget Sound for the next 20 years so my grandkids could have stable wild fisheries.

 I'm with you on the sea lion issue, do you realize they have now estimated that 50% of the spring salmon on the Columbia are being killed by them?

 Now, would you care to explain to me how closing down salmon fishing for the next 20 years (assuming you mean sport angling) would do anything at all to the wild stock?

 Signed by the way. :tup:
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: singleshot12 on March 03, 2016, 02:32:50 PM
Quote
I don't think some hatcheries in Washington have done as much as other strategies focused on wild fish could, given that hatcheries still make up 90% of the catch.

I'm in the minority, but I'd rather give up fishing salmon in Puget Sound for the next 20 years so my grandkids could have stable wild fisheries.

Al

+1.

 I HATE hatcheries! Put the money into making the streams healthy - they can make MORE than enough fish to sustain a healthy fishery without an inefficient, government-subsidized waste of taxpayer money to keep weak, unhealthy, genetically inferior fish around. It's a backwards scheme to make money for a few on the taxpayer's dime at the expense of actually getting back to a healthy fishery.

Billions can be spent on trying to make streams healthier which can't hurt but the bottom line is this regions populace growth will effect wild runs no matter how salmon friendly we become. Most habitat is lost and will be lost forever. Wild or native fish are something of the past anyhow,netted to extincion mostly. Most fish these days with an adipose are hatchery or have hatchery blood in them :twocents:
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: singleshot12 on March 03, 2016, 02:53:56 PM
SO,  are only hope for salmon and trout fishing opportunity in the future is to keep hatcheries open,up-date them and to build more.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Mfowl on March 03, 2016, 03:06:48 PM
Without value on fish, hatchery or wild, there will be no fish for anyone. Only through profitability of the presence of fish can we expect to rejuvenate or sustain either hatchery or wild stocks of fish. It's no secret that sport fishing generates substantial dollars for both state and local economies as do both tribal and commercial fishing. The ripple effect of the loss of our hatcheries would be devastating to our small and rural communities that benefit greatly from the annual fisheries and the crowds they bring in. My opinion is that we have irreparably damaged our wild stocks of fish and to think we can have back what once was is a pipe dream. A moratorium on salmon fishing in Puget Sound would be a death sentance for our runs, hatchery or wild. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him to make money off of it and he'll fight for it forever! :twocents:
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Mfowl on March 03, 2016, 03:07:49 PM
Signed!
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Lucky1 on March 03, 2016, 03:45:01 PM
Quote
Shutting down hatcheries hurts everyone. :twocents:

This may be true in the short term but the cost of managing these operation in the long term is not sustainable IMO. In many cases hatcheries are effectively susidized farm raised fish for public consumption. For the amount of time hatcheries have operated in Washington State I feel our expectations of wild fish recovery should be higher than 10% of the take.

I don't support groups that want to take opportunity away, I do think we could do better at managing for sustainable wild fish without hatcheries.

I understand it is not black and white. My understanding is there are some very effective hatcheries that use wild fish for brood stock.

Dams.  Lions.  Tribal, commercial and sport take.  High river temps, high ocean water temps (the "blob") that bring more predators farther north.  There are many factors working against the salmon, most of which are outside of the control of the WDFW, BPA and upstream power producers.  You cannot manage a wild stock to former glory unless you have the authority to effect the changes needed to do so.  No single entity has that authority at this time, and short of conversion to a dictatorship, won't.  If we want the opportunity to fish in the future we need to invest in that by keeping the hatcheries going. 10% is just a reflection of a number based on another number.  The hatcheries have supplied the near record-breaking runs we've seen in the last few years, giving everybody the opportunity to go fishing.  10% of a record run is a darn sight better than 100% of a handful of fish. 

Hatchery fish are NOT farm fish - not by a long shot. I do not worship at the altar of wild fish for wild fish's sake.  They both went out through the river, they both survived the treacherous ocean for several years, and they both made it back up to the place they were spawned.  How is that not a successful fish in nature's eyes?  Who is a better judge of what is a "good" fish vs. a "bad" fish - nature itself, or some extreme elitist political group like Wild Fish Conservancy? IMHO, we need the hatcheries going, keep doing what needs to be done to ensure strong returns that provide an opportunity for everybody to partake in the bounty that nature has to offer.  The different pressures on the wild fish that are outside of WDFW's control are too great to depend on the wild fish to repopulate on their own.
Well said. I agree and signed.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: hitman2 on March 03, 2016, 03:48:20 PM
 :tup: good to go
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Antlershed on March 03, 2016, 05:32:29 PM
Quote
I don't think some hatcheries in Washington have done as much as other strategies focused on wild fish could, given that hatcheries still make up 90% of the catch.

I'm in the minority, but I'd rather give up fishing salmon in Puget Sound for the next 20 years so my grandkids could have stable wild fisheries.

Al

+1.

 I HATE hatcheries! Put the money into making the streams healthy - they can make MORE than enough fish to sustain a healthy fishery without an inefficient, government-subsidized waste of taxpayer money to keep weak, unhealthy, genetically inferior fish around. It's a backwards scheme to make money for a few on the taxpayer's dime at the expense of actually getting back to a healthy fishery.
I'm curious...who can make "more than enough fish" if we do away with hatcheries?

Signed!
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: JimmyHoffa on March 03, 2016, 05:33:32 PM
Signed, hatcheries are one of the best things WDFW does imo.
The rivers I spend the most time on have pretty good habitat and water quality.  They have reduced carrying capacity, though.  Except for when the pinks run, I don't see or smell carcasses on the river (well, occasionally fish dumped by WDFW or tribes or left by otters).  But the pinks are every other year and they stay low in the river with fry heading out immediately after spawn.  You used to come across all kinds of dead spawned out salmon, even only a decade ago.  I just don't see a magical wild fish comeback unless enough fish of all varieties can replenish the nutrients year round to raise the carrying capacity of the rivers.  The hatchery smolts are released at specific times so they out migrate almost immediately, so hardly any influence on wild fish/carrying capacity.  Maybe some competition at sea, but seriously pales in comparison to the huge amounts commercials are harvesting of herring, shrimp and other forage for things like pet food and fertilizers.  None of that WDFW can control.  Might get more wilds if WDFW collected more hatchery fish from the traps and stuck a bunch in the freezer, then spreading out the nutrient enhancement over the year.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: 3dsheetmetal on March 03, 2016, 06:00:19 PM
Signed :tup:
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Snappy on March 03, 2016, 06:47:12 PM
Signed!!!   If you really think that all finned fish are wild fish then I have a bridge i would like to sell you and if you think that all hatchery fish are from some other strain of fish other then the native species then I also have a building I would like to sell you. If we don't have hatcheries to raise Salmon and Steel Head then what will all the Seals, Sea lions and Orcas eat. We would then be endangering these poor protected species.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: snake on March 03, 2016, 07:07:40 PM
Bleeding hearts... Sooo much money tied up in the salmon industry.  I doubt they would win a court battle with the tribe on this.  The tribe needs the hatcheries so they can stretch a gill net 200 ft in front of the inlet and call it ceremonial, with their 150 hp yamaha.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: fisheral87 on March 03, 2016, 07:57:20 PM
I'm talking about no commercial and potentially very limited catch and release sport fishing. From my standpoint this shouldn't be a tribal/non tribal issue, it's a citizen/resource management issue.

The assumption that the only way to generate revenue from a fishery, is to kill fish, is not a position I agree with. That's coming from a guy who has done his fair share of killing fish.

No one can make more than enough fish in the short term to make up for the loss of hatcheries. I'm suggesting that the position that this is the best we can do is in part what is holding back the posibilitiy of a longer term solution around wild fish. There are bigger problems that aren't being resolved and hatcheries are used as a crutch to avoid those problems. I say that we can forego the opportunity to fish in an effort to have sustainable wild runs of fish for future generations. Then even more money can be put into habitat efforts.

In my experience there is noticeable degradation of genetics when non native runs are introduced to a system. I don't believe that all finned fish are wild, that's really part of my point.

Signed.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: fisheral87 on March 03, 2016, 08:03:48 PM
Quote
Bleeding hearts... Sooo much money tied up in the salmon industry.  I doubt they would win a court battle with the tribe on this.  The tribe needs the hatcheries so they can stretch a gill net 200 ft in front of the inlet and call it ceremonial, with their 150 hp yamaha.

I agree that there would need to be significant compromises with tribal stakeholders but framing the discussion with this tone of divisiveness is part of the problem.

Al
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: huntnphool on March 03, 2016, 11:29:48 PM
In my experience there is noticeable degradation of genetics when non native runs are introduced to a system.

 Really? How do you explain this "non native" degradation of genetics introduced to this system? (Image attached below)
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,191712.msg2536873.html#msg2536873


No one can make more than enough fish in the short term to make up for the loss of hatcheries. I'm suggesting that the position that this is the best we can do is in part what is holding back the posibilitiy of a longer term solution around wild fish. There are bigger problems that aren't being resolved and hatcheries are used as a crutch to avoid those problems. I say that we can forego the opportunity to fish in an effort to have sustainable wild runs of fish for future generations.

  :chuckle: So you are suggesting that closing sport salmon fishing in Puget Sound for 20 years will result in such a wild run proliferation, that there will no longer be need for hatcheries, and our kids/grandkids will enjoy seasons stacked with natives? :chuckle:

 The only solution that will bring back native runs to their "glory years" regardless what you believe the effect sport fishing has, is removing the commercial sale of salmon, which will never happen. :twocents:
 
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: fisheral87 on March 04, 2016, 07:22:35 AM
Quote
  :chuckle: So you are suggesting that closing sport salmon fishing in Puget Sound for 20 years will result in such a wild run proliferation, that there will no longer be need for hatcheries, and our kids/grandkids will enjoy seasons stacked with natives? :chuckle:

No.

Quote
I'm talking about no commercial and potentially very limited catch and release sport fishing.

Quote
Really? How do you explain this "non native" degradation of genetics introduced to this system? (Image attached below)

If you start with really good native brood stock that goes a long way to improving genetic quality of wild fish. Not all hatcheries are using native fish as brood stock. But only natural selection will give the variation within a run. Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.

I think closing commercial fishing should be on the table. But as long as the government subsidieses commercial fishing through hatcheries, that won't happen.

Al
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Mfowl on March 04, 2016, 08:25:56 AM
The assumption that the only way to generate revenue from a fishery, is to kill fish, is not a position I agree with. That's coming from a guy who has done his fair share of killing fish.


Without commercial fishing and potentially limited catch and release only sport fishing, where do you propose the revenue will come from?  Why would a guy spend $50k on a boat and load it with gear and electronics to CnR some fish a couple times a year? What are you gonna tell the commercial fisher or charter boat captain that looses their livelihood? Just wait 20 years and try again? Are we gonna be expected to pay yet another fee attached to our annual license purchase, perhaps yet another fuel tax? Do you think people are gonna support increased fees for diminished opportunity? You stated that you've caught your share of fish and experienced plenty of success. That doesn't mean the next guy feels that way. The next guy needs their chance at success, they need to validate their expenses in one form or another. If you take that from him, he has no reason to put his money in this resource.
I get the sense from your posts that you are an experienced and passionate fisherman as am I. Though our opinions differ on the subject, people like us need to find common ground to stand on or we're gonna lose this battle against special interest groups that want to take away what we care about. These groups don't care about your passion, they care about their goals and they will gut you to achieve them. We can't afford to give them another inch. :twocents:
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on March 04, 2016, 08:35:35 AM
Signed! :tup:
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: fisheral87 on March 04, 2016, 03:04:04 PM
MFowl,

I agree with you and you are correct in your criticism, I don't have solutions for the loss in economic value in the short term. That's something that I think would be important to come up with good solutions as sportsmen so that groups that don't have our best interests at heart can't take advantage of our community not having completely thought through how best to handle the transition away from hatcheries. If you ever want to sit down and solve this over Jameson, the first one is on me.  :tup:

I've spent a fair amount of money to CnR fish. That's part of the problem in my mind, the defenition of an "opportunity" is tied to harvest. The experiences I have had have been of varying quality, I want those guys coming up to fish for native fish in home waters because that experience is a better one than any of the hatchery supported fisheries I have experienced. I still find myself falling into this category a lot. But it's not a sustainable mindset.

To be clear, I signed this and I think people should signs this to preserve the system as it is. My purpose is to encourage additional discussion because, while I have my opinions, as I said above I damn sure don't have answers.

Al

Al

Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: snake on March 04, 2016, 06:00:01 PM
Fisheral87, you are a disease to sportsman everywhere.  You have no comprehension of what you are talking about.  You need to get out more.  The only things the salmon have going for them unfortunately are the tribes and the sportsmen.  Don't give me the " I fished here for 35 years BS"  It is obvious you live in a big city and don't get out much.  I never call people out like this but you need it.  Tell me, when everyone stops fishing commercially, recreationally, and tribally  for the next 20 years, who is going to be there to give 2 *censored*s about the fish?  Becoming a good fisherman takes many years, from the first time you pick up a rod as a child to your last cast.  It is something you pass down to your kids.  Same with hunting.  It is a heritage passed down.  If we do not teach our children to fish they will not fish or care about the salmon runs.  Sorry to burst your bubble but the "wild" fish you speak of do not exist.  There is no perfect genetically superior fish that will fill our rivers when if we shut the hatcheries down.  We did the damage with dams and logging.  we could talk for hours about all the damage done to habitat.  We have to deal with what we have left.  Public interest is more valuable than you think.  Get a clue and shut up about closing the hatcheries.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Skillet on March 04, 2016, 06:29:49 PM
That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 :twocents:
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: snake on March 04, 2016, 06:48:44 PM
That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 :twocents:

Its a matter of opinion,  I was actually being nice btw.  Its much deeper than the short paragraph i have written.  Its a way of thinking.  We are talking about Washington State for god's sake!Tree hugging, Dirt worshipers with no idea of conserving wildlife or a certain way of life.(Fishing,Hunting, Trapping)  Open your eyes!  People need to stand up and speak against uninformed stupidity, it spreads like a disease.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Mfowl on March 04, 2016, 07:08:34 PM
That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 :twocents:

Amen, disagree don't disrespect!

BTW: I'd have a drink with you FisherAl, we need differing opinions to bring all points to light.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: snake on March 04, 2016, 07:16:40 PM
That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 :twocents:

Amen, disagree don't disrespect!

BTW: I'd have a drink with you FisherAl, we need differing opinions to bring all points to light.
Well you guys can go drink and sing kumbaya.  Yah take our fishing, hunting and trapping rights, go ahead, just don't "disrespect" anyone.  What a joke, Grow a set of balls.  Look where its got Washington. Too worried about offending someone to stand up for yourself.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Bullkllr on March 04, 2016, 07:21:18 PM
That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 :twocents:

Its a matter of opinion,  I was actually being nice btw.  Its much deeper than the short paragraph i have written.  Its a way of thinking.  We are talking about Washington State for god's sake!Tree hugging, Dirt worshipers with no idea of conserving wildlife or a certain way of life.(Fishing,Hunting, Trapping)  Open your eyes!  People need to stand up and speak against uninformed stupidity, it spreads like a disease.

Then it is my opinion that you musn't have read his posts very thoroughly.


To be clear, I signed this and I think people should signs this to preserve the system as it is. My purpose is to encourage additional discussion because, while I have my opinions, as I said above I damn sure don't have answers.

Really, it's gotten to be such a complicated issue there really is no black and white. If purely wild fish were the answer, we'd need harvestable numbers that we may never see for a multitude of reasons? If hatchery fish were the only answer, why has 100+ years of intense salmonid culture gotten us where we are today?
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Mfowl on March 04, 2016, 07:23:20 PM
That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 :twocents:

Amen, disagree don't disrespect!

BTW: I'd have a drink with you FisherAl, we need differing opinions to bring all points to light.
Well you guys can go drink and sing kumbaya.  Yah take our fishing, hunting and trapping rights, go ahead, just don't "disrespect" anyone.  What a joke, Grow a set of balls.  Look where its got Washington. Too worried about offending someone to stand up for yourself.

I have no issue with offending you!
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: snake on March 04, 2016, 07:31:13 PM
That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 :twocents:

Its a matter of opinion,  I was actually being nice btw.  Its much deeper than the short paragraph i have written.  Its a way of thinking.  We are talking about Washington State for god's sake!Tree hugging, Dirt worshipers with no idea of conserving wildlife or a certain way of life.(Fishing,Hunting, Trapping)  Open your eyes!  People need to stand up and speak against uninformed stupidity, it spreads like a disease.

Then it is my opinion that you musn't have read his posts very thoroughly.


To be clear, I signed this and I think people should signs this to preserve the system as it is. My purpose is to encourage additional discussion because, while I have my opinions, as I said above I damn sure don't have answers.

Really, it's gotten to be such a complicated issue there really is no black and white. If purely wild fish were the answer, we'd need harvestable numbers that we may never see for a multitude of reasons? If hatchery fish were the only answer, why has 100+ years of intense salmonid culture gotten us where we are today?
My point exactly, so why would we close all hatcheries and suspend all fishing including catch and release for 20 years.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: 7mmfan on March 04, 2016, 07:45:49 PM
I don't think that is a plan, as much as an idea guys. Fisheral's post stemmed from a conversation him and I had after my trip to the coast this last weekend. I fished the Clearwater Thursday, hooked 8 fish. Fished the Queets Friday, hooked 9 fish. Saturday and Sunday were basically nill. Just so happens that on the days we didn't hook hardly any fish, Indians were drift netting the Queets at the mouth of the Clearwater, and had nets set crisscrossing the river down from that.

The point is that if we give these fish a chance, a majority of the systems could sustain wild harvest. Puget Sound rivers are a different story. I've seen the Sky closed to catch and release for about 15 years now with limited recovery of that stock. No one really knows why but I hope they figure it out soon.

Hatcheries, if run with wild brood stock from the river systems they are on, could lend a huge helping hand in recovering basin specific stocks, just ask the Nez Perce, they nailed it with their fall chinook in Idaho.

Snake noted that fishing is a thing that is passed down from generation to generation. He's correct. You have to plant that seed early and keep it fed to keep it alive in kids. They are offered so many different sources of entertainment today that fishing can easily go by the wayside. He is also correct that when fisherman are gone, there will be no one left to care if there are any fish left in our rivers. However, if the cost of passing that torch is catching the last fish, then whats the point?

In closing, I think the real point here is that something needs to change. We can't keep on keepin on and expect things to get better. A hatchery system is necessary, most of our river systems have changed to dramatically to support historical fish runs, and that won't change as our area continues to grow at an exponential rate. The hatchery system needs to change from the one we're using now.

Also, Snake, just a heads up. Fisheral has been, done, and seen FAR more than you ever will when it comes to fishing. I've watched that guy fillet as many fish in a day as you probably caught in the last 10 years. It takes those experiences to make one realize how piss poor things are here, and why they should change. Wake up.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: snake on March 04, 2016, 08:07:53 PM
I don't think that is a plan, as much as an idea guys. Fisheral's post stemmed from a conversation him and I had after my trip to the coast this last weekend. I fished the Clearwater Thursday, hooked 8 fish. Fished the Queets Friday, hooked 9 fish. Saturday and Sunday were basically nill. Just so happens that on the days we didn't hook hardly any fish, Indians were drift netting the Queets at the mouth of the Clearwater, and had nets set crisscrossing the river down from that.

The point is that if we give these fish a chance, a majority of the systems could sustain wild harvest. Puget Sound rivers are a different story. I've seen the Sky closed to catch and release for about 15 years now with limited recovery of that stock. No one really knows why but I hope they figure it out soon.

Hatcheries, if run with wild brood stock from the river systems they are on, could lend a huge helping hand in recovering basin specific stocks, just ask the Nez Perce, they nailed it with their fall chinook in Idaho.

Snake noted that fishing is a thing that is passed down from generation to generation. He's correct. You have to plant that seed early and keep it fed to keep it alive in kids. They are offered so many different sources of entertainment today that fishing can easily go by the wayside. He is also correct that when fisherman are gone, there will be no one left to care if there are any fish left in our rivers. However, if the cost of passing that torch is catching the last fish, then whats the point?

In closing, I think the real point here is that something needs to change. We can't keep on keepin on and expect things to get better. A hatchery system is necessary, most of our river systems have changed to dramatically to support historical fish runs, and that won't change as our area continues to grow at an exponential rate. The hatchery system needs to change from the one we're using now.

Also, Snake, just a heads up. Fisheral has been, done, and seen FAR more than you ever will when it comes to fishing. I've watched that guy fillet as many fish in a day as you probably caught in the last 10 years. It takes those experiences to make one realize how piss poor things are here, and why they should change. Wake up.
Thanks Great, I wish i had a nickel for every time i heard someone say how many more fish they have caught than everyone else.  I am glad you know exactly how many fish both fisheral and myself have caught.  I am not here to prove my knowledge or experience in the fishing industry.  I can assure you mine is more than sufficient to have this conversation.  As I stated before we could talk for hours about all the damage done.  Sadly it is too late to return all of our rivers to "wild" fish.  Hatcheries are our only hope to keep the heritage alive.  Yes they can improve their effectiveness, yes they can do things to incorporate more or these "wild" fish you speak of.  If seeing a fin gets you off maybe you can talk them into not clipping so many.  If you think the last 100 years was hard on salmon, my bet is the next 100 years will be even worse.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: 7mmfan on March 04, 2016, 08:13:50 PM
I think one thing needs to be cleared up. Theres a huge difference between "wild" fish and "native" fish. There are very few rivers in WA, maybe none, that have true "native" fish left. There are however lots of "wild" fish. These fish are a combination of native and hatchery stocks. Because of that, all the whackos that say we need to eliminate all hatchery's to save our "native" fish are flat out wrong. I do not think we should shut down hatcheries, I think our hatchery system needs reformed to utilize the "wild" stocks within the given river systems. Fair enough?
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: snake on March 04, 2016, 08:21:18 PM
Yes you are right. Agreed sir.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: 7mmfan on March 04, 2016, 08:27:14 PM
I see rivers in OR doing great things with broodstock programs. I've seen the Nez Perce and the Yakimas with chinook raise a generation of smolt from wild stock and allow them to spawn in the river. They've had enormous success with this. Why couldn't we implement a similar program in WA on our worst performers? Pull 20 wild fish from the system, and allow the returning fish to spawn in the river. They are wild fish that were given a helping hand.

Doing this would require a major shift in thinking for the state, a major investment in hatchery infrastructure, and a major shutdown of special interest groups.

I would also be fine not fishing for a few years if it meant that everyone else stopped fishing for a few years to allow some of our worst performing rivers to gain a foothold again.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: snake on March 04, 2016, 09:02:08 PM
This is such a complicated subject.  Rivers with low returns are closed every year.  The tribe does not cooperate as I am sure you are aware.  They choke the river off anyway.  WDFW claims they work together with the tribe to set seasons and bag limits.  Its a joke.  If we get something good going there will be someone who will come along and capitalize from it and destroy it, tribal or commercial.  If hatcheries stop producing fish, the tribes and commercial fleets will not stop fishing.  It would be catastrophic.  Japanese, Russian and American interceptors target these fish in open ocean YEAR round, relentlessly, and they are getting more efficient every year.  There are so many sides to this conversation.  I am happy we have record runs clipped, wild, native, whatever.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: plugger on March 07, 2016, 07:34:02 PM
It might be time to call them what they are, natural spawning fish not native fish.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: Snappy on March 08, 2016, 09:07:12 AM
Snake brings up a lot of other factors that effect our hatchery and native stocks and no one understands it more then those of us that fish the south sound areas. Not that I don't agree with so many peoples opinion that warmer waters, logging and pollution have not taken tolls on these stocks and will continue in the future but yes these other factors as Snake has pointed have only added to the problem specially with the decreases in hatchery production that the WDFW have been doing over the years. Who or what group would keep the many groups of people that intercept the spawning stocks from returning to their spawning grounds be it river beds or hatcheries in check if we the sportsman are taken out of the mix. As I hinted to in one of my earlier posts one additional factor that is being ignored by a lot of people and the WDFW is the increased number of predators that both the finned and non-finned stocks face in their life cycle. Yes we are talking about the now protected species that are not being kept in check a lot like the wolf and grizzly bears that many of you are very passionate about. Federal and state agencies need to reexamine these species protection status and how they are adding to over all salmon decline. Next how many of you take the opportunity to attend the North of Falcon meeting each year to voice your concerns for the fishing opportunities in the state and I am not talking about just the area you like to fish but for the whole state. How many of you are aware of the WDFW areas of concern and what actions they are planning?  What action they are planning for the hatcheries and what hatcheries are getting the most production verses others and why?  Right, these meeting are about as easy to make as the wolf meeting for the common person that is trying to scratch out a living these days. But when they see a large number of concerned people they do take note. So like the wolf meetings take the time get involve in these events also.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: snake on March 08, 2016, 04:55:00 PM
All very true.  Yes they do listen! I have had great success even with a single phone call on numerous issues.
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: fisheral87 on March 08, 2016, 08:35:49 PM
Quote
Fisheral87, you are a disease to sportsman everywhere.  You have no comprehension of what you are talking about. You need to get out more. 
I don’t believe we are so far apart on the subject for you to be so critical and I would prefer you were critical of my position rather than my person. We agree on predators and have some of the same values when it comes to heritage.
Quote
The only things the salmon have going for them unfortunately are the tribes and the sportsmen. 
Quote
The tribe needs the hatcheries so they can stretch a gill net 200 ft in front of the inlet and call it ceremonial, with their 150 hp yamaha.
So you can criticize the commercial tribal fishery, but I can’t? I understand that public involvement is critical and that’s why I’d be in favor of a catch and release fishery until the runs we more sustainable. As several people have said, not all hatchery programs are created equal. I think some of our operations could do better and that might mean closing some of the ones that aren’t cutting it either because of brood stock, operations, etc. with the end goal of not needing hatcheries.
Quote
Don't give me the " I fished here for 35 years BS"
I never said this. I did say that I have spent a lot of time fishing, and of that time a lot of my effort/money has been put towards catch and release fisheries.
 
Quote
It is obvious you live in a big city and don't get out much.  I never call people out like this but you need it.  Tell me, when everyone stops fishing commercially, recreationally, and tribally  for the next 20 years, who is going to be there to give 2 *censored*s about the fish?
I feel that the harvest of fish in the state is too high to give many runs much hope of recovery. So, as I said before, I would be willing to have a catch and release only fishery if it meant that there would be no commercial fishery in an effort to allow runs to get to a sustainable level where instead of subsidizing fisheries we were at a point of managing naturally reproducing fisheries. There are definitely additional challenges like habitat and economic productivity that have been put forward which I already admitted to not having solutions for.
Quote
  Becoming a good fisherman takes many years, from the first time you pick up a rod as a child to your last cast.  It is something you pass down to your kids.  Same with hunting.  It is a heritage passed down.  If we do not teach our children to fish they will not fish or care about the salmon runs. 
Couldn’t agree more, This past year  my wife and I were out fishing coho’s and happened to catch and release her first king salmon. I’ll never forget that experience. I hope to have similar experiences with my children as I hope you have with your family.
Quote
  Sorry to burst your bubble but the "wild" fish you speak of do not exist.  There is no perfect genetically superior fish that will fill our rivers when if we shut the hatcheries down.  We did the damage with dams and logging.  we could talk for hours about all the damage done to habitat.  We have to deal with what we have left.  Public interest is more valuable than you think.  Get a clue and shut up about closing the hatcheries.
  My terminology is probably wrong and I don’t understand biology well enough to understand the extent to which the genetics have been tainted, but I never said there was a perfect genetically superior fish that would solve our problems, I’m sorry if I gave you that impression. It is my opinion that genetically good fish reproducing independently in a stream are better (And cheaper long-term) than superior genetics out of a hatchery.

Al
Title: Re: Save our Hatcheries
Post by: singleshot12 on March 10, 2016, 11:51:03 AM
In a perfect world hatcheries should of never evolved in the first place. But modern man has made irreversable damage to the eco-system. If we want fish to harvest in this over-populated modern world - - Then hatcheries are our only hope :twocents:
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2025, SimplePortal