Save our Hatcheries

[snake]

Bleeding hearts... Sooo much money tied up in the salmon industry.  I doubt they would win a court battle with the tribe on this.  The tribe needs the hatcheries so they can stretch a gill net 200 ft in front of the inlet and call it ceremonial, with their 150 hp yamaha.

[fisheral87]

I'm talking about no commercial and potentially very limited catch and release sport fishing. From my standpoint this shouldn't be a tribal/non tribal issue, it's a citizen/resource management issue.

The assumption that the only way to generate revenue from a fishery, is to kill fish, is not a position I agree with. That's coming from a guy who has done his fair share of killing fish.

No one can make more than enough fish in the short term to make up for the loss of hatcheries. I'm suggesting that the position that this is the best we can do is in part what is holding back the posibilitiy of a longer term solution around wild fish. There are bigger problems that aren't being resolved and hatcheries are used as a crutch to avoid those problems. I say that we can forego the opportunity to fish in an effort to have sustainable wild runs of fish for future generations. Then even more money can be put into habitat efforts.

In my experience there is noticeable degradation of genetics when non native runs are introduced to a system. I don't believe that all finned fish are wild, that's really part of my point.

Signed.

[fisheral87]

Bleeding hearts... Sooo much money tied up in the salmon industry.  I doubt they would win a court battle with the tribe on this.  The tribe needs the hatcheries so they can stretch a gill net 200 ft in front of the inlet and call it ceremonial, with their 150 hp yamaha.

I agree that there would need to be significant compromises with tribal stakeholders but framing the discussion with this tone of divisiveness is part of the problem.

Al

[huntnphool]

In my experience there is noticeable degradation of genetics when non native runs are introduced to a system.

 Really? How do you explain this "non native" degradation of genetics introduced to this system? (Image attached below)
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,191712.msg2536873.html#msg2536873

No one can make more than enough fish in the short term to make up for the loss of hatcheries. I'm suggesting that the position that this is the best we can do is in part what is holding back the posibilitiy of a longer term solution around wild fish. There are bigger problems that aren't being resolved and hatcheries are used as a crutch to avoid those problems. I say that we can forego the opportunity to fish in an effort to have sustainable wild runs of fish for future generations.

  So you are suggesting that closing sport salmon fishing in Puget Sound for 20 years will result in such a wild run proliferation, that there will no longer be need for hatcheries, and our kids/grandkids will enjoy seasons stacked with natives?

 The only solution that will bring back native runs to their "glory years" regardless what you believe the effect sport fishing has, is removing the commercial sale of salmon, which will never happen.
 

[fisheral87]

  So you are suggesting that closing sport salmon fishing in Puget Sound for 20 years will result in such a wild run proliferation, that there will no longer be need for hatcheries, and our kids/grandkids will enjoy seasons stacked with natives?

No.

I'm talking about no commercial and potentially very limited catch and release sport fishing.

Really? How do you explain this "non native" degradation of genetics introduced to this system? (Image attached below)

If you start with really good native brood stock that goes a long way to improving genetic quality of wild fish. Not all hatcheries are using native fish as brood stock. But only natural selection will give the variation within a run. Bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.

I think closing commercial fishing should be on the table. But as long as the government subsidieses commercial fishing through hatcheries, that won't happen.

Al

[Mfowl]

The assumption that the only way to generate revenue from a fishery, is to kill fish, is not a position I agree with. That's coming from a guy who has done his fair share of killing fish.


Without commercial fishing and potentially limited catch and release only sport fishing, where do you propose the revenue will come from?  Why would a guy spend $50k on a boat and load it with gear and electronics to CnR some fish a couple times a year? What are you gonna tell the commercial fisher or charter boat captain that looses their livelihood? Just wait 20 years and try again? Are we gonna be expected to pay yet another fee attached to our annual license purchase, perhaps yet another fuel tax? Do you think people are gonna support increased fees for diminished opportunity? You stated that you've caught your share of fish and experienced plenty of success. That doesn't mean the next guy feels that way. The next guy needs their chance at success, they need to validate their expenses in one form or another. If you take that from him, he has no reason to put his money in this resource.
I get the sense from your posts that you are an experienced and passionate fisherman as am I. Though our opinions differ on the subject, people like us need to find common ground to stand on or we're gonna lose this battle against special interest groups that want to take away what we care about. These groups don't care about your passion, they care about their goals and they will gut you to achieve them. We can't afford to give them another inch.

[HUNTINCOUPLE]

Signed!

[fisheral87]

MFowl,

I agree with you and you are correct in your criticism, I don't have solutions for the loss in economic value in the short term. That's something that I think would be important to come up with good solutions as sportsmen so that groups that don't have our best interests at heart can't take advantage of our community not having completely thought through how best to handle the transition away from hatcheries. If you ever want to sit down and solve this over Jameson, the first one is on me. 

I've spent a fair amount of money to CnR fish. That's part of the problem in my mind, the defenition of an "opportunity" is tied to harvest. The experiences I have had have been of varying quality, I want those guys coming up to fish for native fish in home waters because that experience is a better one than any of the hatchery supported fisheries I have experienced. I still find myself falling into this category a lot. But it's not a sustainable mindset.

To be clear, I signed this and I think people should signs this to preserve the system as it is. My purpose is to encourage additional discussion because, while I have my opinions, as I said above I damn sure don't have answers.

Al

Al

[snake]

Fisheral87, you are a disease to sportsman everywhere.  You have no comprehension of what you are talking about.  You need to get out more.  The only things the salmon have going for them unfortunately are the tribes and the sportsmen.  Don't give me the " I fished here for 35 years BS"  It is obvious you live in a big city and don't get out much.  I never call people out like this but you need it.  Tell me, when everyone stops fishing commercially, recreationally, and tribally  for the next 20 years, who is going to be there to give 2 *censored*s about the fish?  Becoming a good fisherman takes many years, from the first time you pick up a rod as a child to your last cast.  It is something you pass down to your kids.  Same with hunting.  It is a heritage passed down.  If we do not teach our children to fish they will not fish or care about the salmon runs.  Sorry to burst your bubble but the "wild" fish you speak of do not exist.  There is no perfect genetically superior fish that will fill our rivers when if we shut the hatcheries down.  We did the damage with dams and logging.  we could talk for hours about all the damage done to habitat.  We have to deal with what we have left.  Public interest is more valuable than you think.  Get a clue and shut up about closing the hatcheries.

[Skillet]

That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 

[snake]

That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 

Its a matter of opinion,  I was actually being nice btw.  Its much deeper than the short paragraph i have written.  Its a way of thinking.  We are talking about Washington State for god's sake!Tree hugging, Dirt worshipers with no idea of conserving wildlife or a certain way of life.(Fishing,Hunting, Trapping)  Open your eyes!  People need to stand up and speak against uninformed stupidity, it spreads like a disease.

[Mfowl]

That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 

Amen, disagree don't disrespect!

BTW: I'd have a drink with you FisherAl, we need differing opinions to bring all points to light.

[snake]

That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 

Amen, disagree don't disrespect!

BTW: I'd have a drink with you FisherAl, we need differing opinions to bring all points to light.

Well you guys can go drink and sing kumbaya.  Yah take our fishing, hunting and trapping rights, go ahead, just don't "disrespect" anyone.  What a joke, Grow a set of balls.  Look where its got Washington. Too worried about offending someone to stand up for yourself.

[Bullkllr]

That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 

Its a matter of opinion,  I was actually being nice btw.  Its much deeper than the short paragraph i have written.  Its a way of thinking.  We are talking about Washington State for god's sake!Tree hugging, Dirt worshipers with no idea of conserving wildlife or a certain way of life.(Fishing,Hunting, Trapping)  Open your eyes!  People need to stand up and speak against uninformed stupidity, it spreads like a disease.

Then it is my opinion that you musn't have read his posts very thoroughly.

To be clear, I signed this and I think people should signs this to preserve the system as it is. My purpose is to encourage additional discussion because, while I have my opinions, as I said above I damn sure don't have answers.

Really, it's gotten to be such a complicated issue there really is no black and white. If purely wild fish were the answer, we'd need harvestable numbers that we may never see for a multitude of reasons? If hatchery fish were the only answer, why has 100+ years of intense salmonid culture gotten us where we are today?

[Mfowl]

That's a bit harsh snake.  While I disagree with Fisheral and other wild fish advocates on nearly all points,  I get the sense he is an intelligent and reasonable guy.  We've got plenty of extremist opposition on this issue, no need to go around personally attacking people you could actually have a conversation with.
 

Amen, disagree don't disrespect!

BTW: I'd have a drink with you FisherAl, we need differing opinions to bring all points to light.

Well you guys can go drink and sing kumbaya.  Yah take our fishing, hunting and trapping rights, go ahead, just don't "disrespect" anyone.  What a joke, Grow a set of balls.  Look where its got Washington. Too worried about offending someone to stand up for yourself.

I have no issue with offending you!