Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 05:51:47 AM
Regarding the TTSX, I will never purchase any Barnes product ever. I used to run SPORTCO's hunting/shooting counter ~ 25 years ago and at that time Barnes was busy lobbying the legislatures and game departments of practically all western States to go "lead free." I have nothing against a business trying to increase their market share by building a better product, but trying to legislate market share is despicable.
Post by: RadSav on March 10, 2016, 05:55:01 AM
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 08:08:44 AM
Wow, I hadn't heard that. Not good!
I used to go to WDFW mid-day public meetings when I had that job and the same guys who were in SPORTCO trying to get us to pick up their X-bullet product on Wednesday were at the meeting going all in to get lead banned on Thursday. And make no mistake about it, the topic was shotgun ammo and these guys from Barnes were advocating for a ban on all lead in ammo for sporting use period.
I used their 348 bullet from their original line and once the ones I had on hand were used up I have used the Woodleighs in their place. I shoot mostly cast bullets out of it and will use Hornady 200 gr for deer.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 10, 2016, 08:11:06 AM
Wow, I hadn't heard that. Not good!
:yeah: once I confirm this I am throwing all Barnes bullets in the trash. Partly for that reason and partly because I am sick of cleaning after 6 shots
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 08:20:57 AM
Wow, I hadn't heard that. Not good!
:yeah: once I confirm this I am throwing all Barnes bullets in the trash. Partly for that reason and partly because I am sick of cleaning after 6 shots
I practically exploded after sitting there and listening to their BS. They had shown up with their local rep at SPORTCO unannounced and were extolling the virtues of their X-bullet and then when they showed up at a WDFW public meeting that had nothing to do with their X-bullet, but had expanding the non-toxic shot shell requirement and they took that as license to advocate on behalf of a ban on all lead in sporting ammo I was so pissed of that I called every competitor in the State and let them know what these jerks were up to. That was ~ 1988 - 1990 just a few years after the time their X-bullet came out. I had used Colorado Custom/Barnes Originals up until that time, but swore I would never purchase another thing from them.
Post by: theleo on March 10, 2016, 08:43:59 AM
Wow, I hadn't heard that. Not good!
You don't keep track of Oregon game law issues. The Oregon ZOO, a decidedly anti hunter organization, has teamed up with Barnes and ODFW to put on presentations of the evils of lead core bullets. There's a movement to make Oregon a lead free state and Barnes is there as a representative of the fire arms industry pushing their agenda. Not even Oregon based Nosler is showing any support, but Barnes sure is. If they pass it in Oregon it will just be a matter of time before they start pushing the lead free ammo agenda here.
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 08:48:46 AM
Wow, I hadn't heard that. Not good!
You don't keep track of Oregon game law issues. The Oregon ZOO, a decidedly anti hunter organization, has teamed up with Barnes and ODFW to put on presentations of the evils of lead core bullets. There's a movement to make Oregon a lead free state and Barnes is there as a representative of the fire arms industry pushing their agenda. Not even Oregon based Nosler is showing any support, but Barnes sure is. If they pass it in Oregon it will just be a matter of time before they start pushing the lead free ammo agenda here.
Barnes Bullets should be something that no sportsman should ever spend a dime on. I was there and I was enraged at not only their tactics, but the lies they were telling. They are absolute filth.
Post by: high country on March 10, 2016, 09:52:45 AM
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 09:57:58 AM
Was this Randy Brooks? If not, let's get their response to this. We need to know if it's a corporate decision or one rep trying to up his market.
Yes in my case it was. The rep was a local guy, the Barnes people came out of Colorado all glad handing and back slapping and handing out "free samples" and swag like ball caps, t-shirts, etc and offering to take me to lunch. When they saw me at the WDFW meeting the next day they about dumped in their pants.
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 10:04:43 AM
Wow, I hadn't heard that. Not good!
You don't keep track of Oregon game law issues. The Oregon ZOO, a decidedly anti hunter organization, has teamed up with Barnes and ODFW to put on presentations of the evils of lead core bullets. There's a movement to make Oregon a lead free state and Barnes is there as a representative of the fire arms industry pushing their agenda. Not even Oregon based Nosler is showing any support, but Barnes sure is. If they pass it in Oregon it will just be a matter of time before they start pushing the lead free ammo agenda here.
In the meeting I was at it was Barnes who was the ring leader. "Environmental groups" like Sierra Club as well as WDFW and the rest of the "alphabet Agencies" were all allowing them to take the lead.
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 10:14:25 AM
Post by: bearpaw on March 10, 2016, 10:33:21 AM
Post by: kentrek on March 10, 2016, 10:39:26 AM
Not any more
Post by: predatorpro on March 10, 2016, 10:41:12 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 10, 2016, 10:43:53 AM
Wow, i had planned on shooting a few more animals with big led style bullets then swap to the small solid and fast barnes to see which of the two theories I prefer
Not any more
:yeah: I think I'd rather shoot backwards powerbelts
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 10:56:39 AM
I am at work one morning and Rodger Boyd and one of the reps show up at the retail counter w/this Barnes Bullet mob out of Colorado. They are glad handing and back slapping and handing out sample bullet packs, caps, t-shirts, jackets, and other swag. I used to kinda like it when the reps and factory people paid as much attention to attention to the guys who worked for me as they did to me and so I would say that they made a good first impression. IIRC the story was: they were supposedly headed to B.C. or AK and decided to spend some time around the Puget Sound area. This was like on a Tuesday or Wednesday and (again IIRC) there was a WDFW public meeting that Thursday at 10:00 or noon that I had been planning to attend.
The meeting was in Thurston County, it was held in a convention/meeting facility at a motel. Non-toxic shot was being expanded for waterfowl hunting to include areas in the more mountain areas and there was a push to make the entire State non-toxic (even for target trap/skeet ranges). We were always big in the clay target shooting component business and Don Burroughs, and I met Ron Tree and a couple of other guys for breakfast and attended the meeting. This was a very well attended meeting, Chuck Dryke was there, Warshalls people there, Kesselrings folks were there, people who are in to field trial were there and dog trainers were all there.
Make absolutely no mistake about it, Barnes Bullets people were working hand in glove with the "enviro" element that was pushing this agenda and they were making the case that not just lead shot should be banned, that all lead should be banned from all sporting ammunition period.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 10, 2016, 11:03:08 AM
Makes me want to hunt with cast bullets :chuckle:
Post by: high country on March 10, 2016, 11:12:21 AM
Post by: grundy53 on March 10, 2016, 11:28:02 AM
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: Bob33 on March 10, 2016, 11:29:01 AM
It's an old, unsubstantiated rumor.
Post by: theleo on March 10, 2016, 11:29:17 AM
Not much online about this... of course there wouldn't be but it'd be nice if there were more similar stories to access.There's quite a bit on Ifish about this, since most the guys on that forum are from the Portland area some went to the Oregon Zoo workshops. My Google fu is week today as I can't remember exactly which thread it was pertaining to talking with Barnes Reps at one of the workshops. The theme of the meetings were, look at how this lead bullet comes apart and fragments spraying lead every where in the animal compared to this wonderful copper bullet. I have nothing against mono bullets in certain applications but they are not the and all be all bullet design. I'm just not a Barnes fan these days as they have become the poster child for the movement and seem willing enough to go along with it since it fits their corporations revenue agenda.
Makes me want to hunt with cast bullets :chuckle:
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 11:43:39 AM
Let's put some thought into how to share this, it would be very easy to look like a bunch of environment hating gun toters, but it needs to get out and be shared by the customers.
I have never been one to not speak up when I am upset about something and this has been something that has stuck with me for going on three decades now. I did talk to others at the SHOT Show who experienced this in their state and there were more than a couple who were as bent as I was about not only the agenda, but also the tactics.
It has been said that I am known as a person who: Either people like him or they do not like him. If they like him, they like him a lot and if they don't like him they really cannot stand him. There doesn't seem to be much in between.
I had a lot of friends in the industry, from coast to coast, who I would get together with at SHOT Shows or would chat on the phone with and this was a pretty hot topic of conversation for us.
When the topic comes up people are interested in it, but like you they are concerned about how to spread the word w/out coming off as some kind of anti-environment or someone who has an axe to grind w/Barnes. Nothing could be further from the truth, I liked Barnes 250 gr 348 bullets really well and would have been quite happy to continue using them. But after this went down I could not in good conscience purchase anything more from the company. As for the swag they gave to my counter help, to the best of my knowledge it all ended up in the dumpster along with all of the Barnes counter mats, free X-bullets, catalogs and order forms.
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 11:45:42 AM
I don't believe it.
It's an old, unsubstantiated rumor.
It is what it is and went down exactly as I have said re: the important facts. As for details, that was ~30 years ago.
Post by: jackelope on March 10, 2016, 11:48:48 AM
I don't believe it.
It's an old, unsubstantiated rumor.
It is what it is and went down exactly as I have said re: the important facts. As for details, that was ~30 years ago.
This was happening 25-30 years ago. Is there evidence this is still going on today? It doesn't make any sense to get all balled up about something that happened 25 years ago. If it is still happening today, I know what bullets I will not be loading or buying.
Post by: bearpaw on March 10, 2016, 11:50:58 AM
Not much online about this... of course there wouldn't be but it'd be nice if there were more similar stories to access.There's quite a bit on Ifish about this, since most the guys on that forum are from the Portland area some went to the Oregon Zoo workshops. My Google fu is week today as I can't remember exactly which thread it was pertaining to talking with Barnes Reps at one of the workshops. The theme of the meetings were, look at how this lead bullet comes apart and fragments spraying lead every where in the animal compared to this wonderful copper bullet. I have nothing against mono bullets in certain applications but they are not the and all be all bullet design. I'm just not a Barnes fan these days as they have become the poster child for the movement and seem willing enough to go along with it since it fits their corporations revenue agenda.
Makes me want to hunt with cast bullets :chuckle:
We shoot a lot of different bullets, but in the right applications we've had great success with Barnes bullets so I am glad to support them. I would like to confirm that Barnes is actively doing this. It's one thing to watch ammo bans happen and not be opposed if it benefits your sales, it's a much different thing to purposefully advocate for the elimination of all lead ammo to benefit your bottom line when the cost factor will actually damage the overall shooting industry. I certainly want to hear more and agree with jackelope in wanting to know if they are still advocating for lead ammo bans!
Post by: Bob33 on March 10, 2016, 11:53:05 AM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on March 10, 2016, 11:54:58 AM
This should probably be stickied in the Gun Rights and Advocacy section.
Post by: jackelope on March 10, 2016, 11:55:06 AM
Quote
New-look rounds might even be an upgrade. Last year, copper VOR-TX bullets won the American Hunter Ammunition Product of the Year Golden Bullseye Award from the NRA Publications. Despite that honor, the winning manufacturer, Barnes Bullets, opposes banning lead. The company acknowledges that after 30 years of making copper bullets, starting well before longstanding concerns about lead had translated into policy, they've found that copper bullets "deliver the best terminal performance on game” (although it's hard on the manufacturing tools). And yet, "Barnes has not funded or supported efforts to further the advancement of any lead ban, nor will we ever."
http://www.psmag.com/nature-and-technology/duel-lead-green-bullets-68369
I suppose it could be looked at this way too:
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/9/26/leading-the-way-barnes-bullets/
Quote
.........Any anti-hunting faction that believes that making lead projectiles illegal will stop hunting is mistaken, thanks in large part to Randy Brooks and his vision of a copper bullet that can do anything a lead bullet can do. .........
I'm not sticking up for anybody here...just looking at both ends of the spectrum.
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 12:01:00 PM
Post by: bobcat on March 10, 2016, 12:01:46 PM
Post by: Yondering on March 10, 2016, 12:10:28 PM
I don't believe it.
It's an old, unsubstantiated rumor.
It is what it is and went down exactly as I have said re: the important facts. As for details, that was ~30 years ago.
This was happening 25-30 years ago. Is there evidence this is still going on today? It doesn't make any sense to get all balled up about something that happened 25 years ago. If it is still happening today, I know what bullets I will not be loading or buying.
I also would like to know if this is going on now, or if it was just an isolated thing from a couple decades ago. I certainly oppose any sort of lead ban, but if this isn't happening now, holding on to what happened in the 80's is in the same category for me as not buying Ruger products because of what Bill Ruger did.
Post by: jackelope on March 10, 2016, 12:28:28 PM
I cannot say anything about what they are doing today. What went down when they were first pushing the X-bullet is fact.
OK. So it doesn't make any sense to me to badmouth or red flag a company for something that we don't even know whether or not is still happening.
My :twocents: .
Post by: bearpaw on March 10, 2016, 12:31:21 PM
I cannot say anything about what they are doing today. What went down when they were first pushing the X-bullet is fact.
OK. So it doesn't make any sense to me to badmouth or red flag a company for something that we don't even know whether or not is still happening.
My :twocents: .
I agree, these results will come up in internet search results, it this happened decades ago but is not their position today I'm not sure this topic should remain?
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 12:31:54 PM
I will say that this http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2014/jan/14/california-lead-ban-copper-/
looks a lot like something that was not organic in nature. There are quite a few companies who make non-lead bullets today and the focus of this "puff piece" seems to be on one single company. It has all the earmarks of having been planted by a PR firm.
Post by: theleo on March 10, 2016, 12:33:22 PM
Saying they "do not fund or support lead bans" does not say they are against them. If a group with agenda wants push Barnes bullets Barnes will gladly show the traits of their bullets that they find superior while doing what they can to show the faults of the competition. Barnes is sitting happily on the side lines via no donations or press releases but showing the uneducated why they believe lead is inferior and can go the way of the dinosaur and no one would care. Lead bans favor Barnes and I have yet to see anything from them saying they viametly oppose them.
Mono bullets have there place but are also impractical in many situations. Pressures do run higher with them, they are not friendly to old firearms, they have a narrower window for optimum performance, they are not as balisticaly effecient as lead core bullets, and require a faster twist to stabilize compared to a lead core bullet of the same weight.
Post by: Bob33 on March 10, 2016, 12:38:34 PM
Lead bans favor Barnes and I have yet to see anything from them saying they viametly oppose them.I just posted one, five posts back.
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,192456.msg2547704.html#msg2547704
"“When my father (Randy Brooks) went to all-copper, it had nothing to do with the environment,” Jessica Brooks-Stevens, daughter of X Bullet inventor Randy Brooks, said Monday at the 36th Annual SHOT Show in Las Vegas. “His reasons were so far from that it’s not even funny. It was more about performance. It only happened to work for the condor issue in California.
“We don’t support the legislation. We think this type of legislation is bad for hunting, bad for the base. People shoot lead-core ammunition because it’s cheaper to shoot. I know some hunters in California who have put their guns up over this. That’s not good for our sport. Bans like this hurt the future of the sport for everyone.”
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 12:39:18 PM
So a couple of points:
Saying they "do not fund or support lead bans" does not say they are against them. If a group with agenda wants push Barnes bullets Barnes will gladly show the traits of their bullets that they find superior while doing what they can to show the faults of the competition. Barnes is sitting happily on the side lines via no donations or press releases but showing the uneducated why they believe lead is inferior and can go the way of the dinosaur and no one would care. Lead bans favor Barnes and I have yet to see anything from them saying they viametly oppose them.
Mono bullets have there place but are also impractical in many situations. Pressures do run higher with them, they are not friendly to old firearms, they have a narrower window for optimum performance, they are not as balisticaly effecient as lead core bullets, and require a faster twist to stabilize compared to a lead core bullet of the same weight.
What I personally witnessed was pretty transparent. It was a long time ago, but I have clear recollection to my reaction as well as what the reaction of almost everybody who was in attendance from the industry and outdoor sportsman's side was.
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 12:42:26 PM
Lead bans favor Barnes and I have yet to see anything from them saying they viametly oppose them.I just posted one, five posts back.
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,192456.msg2547704.html#msg2547704
"“When my father (Randy Brooks) went to all-copper, it had nothing to do with the environment,” Jessica Brooks-Stevens, daughter of X Bullet inventor Randy Brooks, said Monday at the 36th Annual SHOT Show in Las Vegas. “His reasons were so far from that it’s not even funny. It was more about performance. It only happened to work for the condor issue in California.
“We don’t support the legislation. We think this type of legislation is bad for hunting, bad for the base. People shoot lead-core ammunition because it’s cheaper to shoot. I know some hunters in California who have put their guns up over this. That’s not good for our sport. Bans like this hurt the future of the sport for everyone.”
How much of that is sincere and how much was written by a PR firm?
Post by: Bob33 on March 10, 2016, 12:43:05 PM
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 12:49:16 PM
JD, what happened? After 25 pages did you finally give up on bashing Reichert and decide to pick on a new target?
So did you decide you could fit being a special pleader for a bullet company that I witnessed advocating on behalf of banning all use of lead for sporting purposes into your busy schedule of advocating on behalf of poachers?
Two can play at that game.
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 12:56:53 PM
This is a list of all certified ammo suppliers and bullet suppliers that are certified by CA as lead free. How did it come to be that Barnes Bullets was singled out top have a special puff piece written and published on their behalf. Was this part of a backdoor deal? I am not saying it was, but it sure could have been. You scratch our back (by supporting a lead ban), we will scratch your back (by making sure you get good press) kinda' arrangement.
Notice that the article does not mention any of Barnes competition in the certified lead free world.
Post by: theleo on March 10, 2016, 12:59:09 PM
Here's my point, they blatantly push their bullets as superior to all others but gloss over their short comings. They are advocating their concept of their bullets as superior in all things. What if I own a a 358 win, 375 win, or an old big bore rifle with a pre nickel steel barrel? What of the long distance guys that need energy down range and a bullet soft enough to epand? Barnes sells them selves as the future of hunting bullets but they do not support the argument for multiple kinds of bullets that are better suited for situations they don't find profitable to produce a bullet for.Lead bans favor Barnes and I have yet to see anything from them saying they viametly oppose them.I just posted one, five posts back.
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,192456.msg2547704.html#msg2547704
"“When my father (Randy Brooks) went to all-copper, it had nothing to do with the environment,” Jessica Brooks-Stevens, daughter of X Bullet inventor Randy Brooks, said Monday at the 36th Annual SHOT Show in Las Vegas. “His reasons were so far from that it’s not even funny. It was more about performance. It only happened to work for the condor issue in California.
“We don’t support the legislation. We think this type of legislation is bad for hunting, bad for the base. People shoot lead-core ammunition because it’s cheaper to shoot. I know some hunters in California who have put their guns up over this. That’s not good for our sport. Bans like this hurt the future of the sport for everyone.”
Post by: Yondering on March 10, 2016, 01:26:26 PM
Here's my point, they blatantly push their bullets as superior to all others but gloss over their short comings. They are advocating their concept of their bullets as superior in all things.
Pretty much what all companies do, it's called marketing. If Barnes is really pushing for lead bans, I'd like to know, but I think it's important to stay realistic at the same time.
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 01:33:23 PM
Here's my point, they blatantly push their bullets as superior to all others but gloss over their short comings. They are advocating their concept of their bullets as superior in all things.
Pretty much what all companies do, it's called marketing. If Barnes is really pushing for lead bans, I'd like to know, but I think it's important to stay realistic at the same time.
It is one thing to push your product. It is quite another to be working in the shadows to implement legislation that cripples your competitors. I know that a lot of companies are engaged in doing just that, and it is not the point I am making that this behavior is unique. The point I was making is that this happened and it influences my decision on where to spend my money to this day.
Post by: jackelope on March 10, 2016, 01:40:35 PM
Here's my point, they blatantly push their bullets as superior to all others but gloss over their short comings. They are advocating their concept of their bullets as superior in all things.
Pretty much what all companies do, it's called marketing. If Barnes is really pushing for lead bans, I'd like to know, but I think it's important to stay realistic at the same time.
It is one thing to push your product. It is quite another to be working int he shadows to implement legislation that cripples your competitors. I know that a lot of companies are engaged in doing just that, and it is not the point I am making that this behavior is unique. The point I was making is that this happened and it influences my decision on where to spend my money to this day.
25-30 YEARS AGO!!!
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 01:52:59 PM
Here's my point, they blatantly push their bullets as superior to all others but gloss over their short comings. They are advocating their concept of their bullets as superior in all things.
Pretty much what all companies do, it's called marketing. If Barnes is really pushing for lead bans, I'd like to know, but I think it's important to stay realistic at the same time.
It is one thing to push your product. It is quite another to be working int he shadows to implement legislation that cripples your competitors. I know that a lot of companies are engaged in doing just that, and it is not the point I am making that this behavior is unique. The point I was making is that this happened and it influences my decision on where to spend my money to this day.
25-30 YEARS AGO!!!
You bet! I used to use Barnes 348 Cal 250 Gr Originals. The Woodleigh equivalent suits my needs just fine. I shoot Nosler Partitions at big game from my bolt guns (they work just fine) and Sierra, Nosler & Spear have never let me down when it comes to varmint bullets.
Actually the Woodleigh is a superior bullet in 348, I would have never known that though if Barnes had not given me reason to shop elsewhere for 348 bullets. There was another guy (big into moose hunting) who shot Barnes 250 gr 308 caliber bullets. He stopped using those too after what he had on hand was gone.
Post by: Buzz2401 on March 10, 2016, 02:06:31 PM
Post by: theleo on March 10, 2016, 02:25:55 PM
My understanding is that how the company has acted is not to actively support bans but to show non hunters why a lead ban does not mean the end of hunting. The condor issue in California is still not fixed, condors are still getting lead poisoning. How did all copper bullets "work" for that?
We shoot a lot of different bullets, but in the right applications we've had great success with Barnes bullets so I am glad to support them. I would like to confirm that Barnes is actively doing this. It's one thing to watch ammo bans happen and not be opposed if it benefits your sales, it's a much different thing to purposefully advocate for the elimination of all lead ammo to benefit your bottom line when the cost factor will actually damage the overall shooting industry. I certainly want to hear more and agree with jackelope in wanting to know if they are still advocating for lead ammo bans!
Bearpaw, if I followed your logic it'd also be alright to watch my neighbors house robbed and vandalize in hopes that I could buy their property when they have enough and move somewhere else.
Post by: dscubame on March 10, 2016, 02:39:01 PM
Post by: WoodlandShooter on March 10, 2016, 03:02:32 PM
oh and as for the lack of lead, I might have use for some tungsten core bullets!!!
Post by: bearpaw on March 10, 2016, 03:13:00 PM
My understanding is that how the company has acted is not to actively support bans but to show non hunters why a lead ban does not mean the end of hunting. The condor issue in California is still not fixed, condors are still getting lead poisoning. How did all copper bullets "work" for that?
We shoot a lot of different bullets, but in the right applications we've had great success with Barnes bullets so I am glad to support them. I would like to confirm that Barnes is actively doing this. It's one thing to watch ammo bans happen and not be opposed if it benefits your sales, it's a much different thing to purposefully advocate for the elimination of all lead ammo to benefit your bottom line when the cost factor will actually damage the overall shooting industry. I certainly want to hear more and agree with jackelope in wanting to know if they are still advocating for lead ammo bans!
Bearpaw, if I followed your logic it'd also be alright to watch my neighbors house robbed and vandalize in hopes that I could buy their property when they have enough and move somewhere else.
That's a far cry from what I said. :dunno:
I do get tired of seeing companies unfairly trashed. Unless Barnes is actively promoting lead ammo bans I will continue to use them. Show me the proof that is their current position and I will gladly quit buying Barnes bullets! Otherwise this whole topic seems unfair to Barnes!
Post by: jackelope on March 10, 2016, 03:45:37 PM
My understanding is that how the company has acted is not to actively support bans but to show non hunters why a lead ban does not mean the end of hunting. The condor issue in California is still not fixed, condors are still getting lead poisoning. How did all copper bullets "work" for that?
We shoot a lot of different bullets, but in the right applications we've had great success with Barnes bullets so I am glad to support them. I would like to confirm that Barnes is actively doing this. It's one thing to watch ammo bans happen and not be opposed if it benefits your sales, it's a much different thing to purposefully advocate for the elimination of all lead ammo to benefit your bottom line when the cost factor will actually damage the overall shooting industry. I certainly want to hear more and agree with jackelope in wanting to know if they are still advocating for lead ammo bans!
Bearpaw, if I followed your logic it'd also be alright to watch my neighbors house robbed and vandalize in hopes that I could buy their property when they have enough and move somewhere else.
That's a far cry from what I said. :dunno:
I do get tired of seeing companies unfairly trashed. Unless Barnes is actively promoting lead ammo bans I will continue to use them. Show me the proof that is their current position and I will gladly quit buying Barnes bullets! Otherwise this whole topic seems unfair to Barnes!
That's my angle too. Show me something current. Otherwise...I'm not drinking the cool aid.
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 03:49:09 PM
That alone was enough to put me off Barnes Bullets for good and for all time. I have no personal experience with any thing more current and especially no contemporary experience w/Barnes Bullets what so ever. But I do not need anything more than what I have shared to know that that decision is the correct decision for me.
Post by: theleo on March 10, 2016, 04:00:23 PM
https://ortws.wordpress.com/tag/lead/ (ftp://ortws.wordpress.com/tag/lead/)
This workshop will provide Pacific Northwest hunters and wildlife professionals with an interactive forum to learn about and discuss the effects of lead ingestion on wildlife in Oregon, the ballistics of non-lead ammunition, and ways to reduce lead’s impact on wildlife. Panel discussions will provide participants with opportunities to share their experiences and contribute ideas towards a strategy to reduce the availability of lead from ammunition to wildlife in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest. Topics include:
•Overview of lead and wildlife issues in other states
•Current field research in Oregon
•Hunter opinions, attitudes, and experiences
•Ballistics and effectiveness of non-lead ammunition
•Engaging hunters to help solve the problem
Agenda
9:00 am to 12:00 pm: Morning Session: Overview of wildlife exposure to lead from ammunition, challenges of changing to non-lead ammunition and performance of non-lead ammunition
9:00 – 9:05 Teri Dresler, Oregon Zoo
Welcome and introductions
9:05 – 9:10 Oregon Chapter of the Wildlife Society
Opening Remarks, introduction to morning session
9:10 – 9:35 Chris Parish, Peregrine Fund
Overview and personal experience of research and voluntary outreach in Arizona. Why should sportsmen engage in this issue?
9:35 – 10:00 Dana Sanchez, Oregon State University
Oregon hunter survey results
10:00 – 10:25 Eric Pederson, ballistician and firearms expert (formerly Barnes Bullets)
Ballistics of non-lead bullets
Post by: dscubame on March 10, 2016, 07:14:14 PM
Overwhelming response and thank you.
For those who still need my address just PM me, I am now accepting overflow that I will be forwarding to JDHasty. Thanks.
Post by: Bob33 on March 10, 2016, 07:49:02 PM
I cannot say anything about what they are doing today.Then why did you? "Supporting" is a present tense.
Post by: Wacenturion on March 10, 2016, 08:34:17 PM
My understanding is that how the company has acted is not to actively support bans but to show non hunters why a lead ban does not mean the end of hunting. The condor issue in California is still not fixed, condors are still getting lead poisoning. How did all copper bullets "work" for that?
We shoot a lot of different bullets, but in the right applications we've had great success with Barnes bullets so I am glad to support them. I would like to confirm that Barnes is actively doing this. It's one thing to watch ammo bans happen and not be opposed if it benefits your sales, it's a much different thing to purposefully advocate for the elimination of all lead ammo to benefit your bottom line when the cost factor will actually damage the overall shooting industry. I certainly want to hear more and agree with jackelope in wanting to know if they are still advocating for lead ammo bans!
Bearpaw, if I followed your logic it'd also be alright to watch my neighbors house robbed and vandalize in hopes that I could buy their property when they have enough and move somewhere else.
That's a far cry from what I said. :dunno:
I do get tired of seeing companies unfairly trashed. Unless Barnes is actively promoting lead ammo bans I will continue to use them. Show me the proof that is their current position and I will gladly quit buying Barnes bullets! Otherwise this whole topic seems unfair to Barnes!
Agree........
Post by: JDHasty on March 10, 2016, 09:09:59 PM
I cannot say anything about what they are doing today.Then why did you? "Supporting" is a present tense.
I have laid out what I witnessed. Period. I have said that this event was enough for me to make a decision that I would not do business with them in the future. I haven't and I am comfortable that that was the correct decision for me. This is the second time I have stated my position on this issue and my position is pretty clear and what I claim i based that decision on is unambiguous.
If you want to set up a straw man, knock yourself out. Set up a whole field of straw men and then run around like a pyromaniac in a field of straw men burning them down and what have you accomplished? Nothing.
What I have stated is: My experience a long time ago is what I based my decision on, I am still comfortable with that decision.
Post by: RadSav on March 10, 2016, 10:25:20 PM
I get the impression that all this anger is over actions by the Brooks management and commissioned sales reps prior to 2010. Is this correct?
If so it is a moot point now as the Brooks family no longer owns the company. They sold to The Freedom Group (ROC-Remington Outdoor Company) in 2010. If your issue is with The Freedom Group you might need to add REMINGTON, BUSHMASTER, REMINGTON MILITARY, MARLIN FIREARMS, H&R 1871, DAKOTA ARMS, TAPCO, DPMS / Panther Arms, PARKER GUNMAKERS, ADVANCED ARMAMENT, PARA USA and MOUNTAIN KHAKIS to your list of companies you are going to boycott. Same ownership - operations overseen by the same people.
So I think it is safe to say that if you do not have an objection to Remington Outdoors or a hatred toward their products we can call this issue a Non-Issue at this point in time. But, if you do happen to have evidence that ROC, Inc. is actively trying to legislate lead core bullets out of the market place I would certainly love to here the details with links if possible. I have no problem boycotting companies that are not our friends as sportsmen and stewards of our hunting traditions. However, I am one that really needs to have undeniable facts that current ownership and/or management is actually doing what is rumored on the internet before I will support such action.
Post by: Buzz2401 on March 10, 2016, 11:48:24 PM
Post by: bearpaw on March 11, 2016, 12:41:50 AM
Sorry, took me a while to get through all my old industry news briefs to verify what I had thought I remembered. Wanted to be somewhat accurate before I posted a response in what had become a heated debate.
I get the impression that all this anger is over actions by the Brooks management and commissioned sales reps prior to 2010. Is this correct?
If so it is a moot point now as the Brooks family no longer owns the company. They sold to The Freedom Group (ROC-Remington Outdoor Company) in 2010. If your issue is with The Freedom Group you might need to add REMINGTON, BUSHMASTER, REMINGTON MILITARY, MARLIN FIREARMS, H&R 1871, DAKOTA ARMS, TAPCO, DPMS / Panther Arms, PARKER GUNMAKERS, ADVANCED ARMAMENT, PARA USA and MOUNTAIN KHAKIS to your list of companies you are going to boycott. Same ownership - operations overseen by the same people.
So I think it is safe to say that if you do not have an objection to Remington Outdoors or a hatred toward their products we can call this issue a Non-Issue at this point in time. But, if you do happen to have evidence that ROC, Inc. is actively trying to legislate lead core bullets out of the market place I would certainly love to here the details with links if possible. I have no problem boycotting companies that are not our friends as sportsmen and stewards of our hunting traditions. However, I am one that really needs to have undeniable facts that current ownership and/or management is actually doing what is rumored on the internet before I will support such action.
Your right, I think it was Daniel Lee Martin and Julie McQueen who told me that on our last hunt, I had forgotten, but yes, the same company who owns Remington and several other shooting sports companies now own Barnes.
Post by: jasnt on March 11, 2016, 05:56:47 AM
Make certain to use the Fed 215 primers w/the 300 Wby. It is practically essential.exactly why I will never shoot Barnes. Never have never will!
Regarding the TTSX, I will never purchase any Barnes product ever. I used to run SPORTCO's hunting/shooting counter ~ 25 years ago and at that time Barnes was busy lobbying the legislatures and game departments of practically all western States to go "lead free." I have nothing against a business trying to increase their market share by building a better product, but trying to legislate market share is despicable.
Post by: coachcw on March 11, 2016, 06:32:39 AM
Post by: dscubame on March 11, 2016, 06:57:06 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 11, 2016, 07:09:16 AM
Post by: Killmore on March 11, 2016, 08:49:02 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on March 11, 2016, 08:49:32 AM
Post by: kentrek on March 11, 2016, 09:02:43 AM
Post by: cboom on March 12, 2016, 07:48:18 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 12, 2016, 12:45:51 PM
Big surprise, JDHasty on another witchhunt :bash: And as to be expected not a link or fact to back up any of his outlandish claims.
To be fair he has outlined that this was experience and gave pretty solid indication to that.
He didn't start this topic, it was split from another thread
Post by: Utah on March 12, 2016, 08:56:02 PM
FWIW, every Barnes in every caliber I've ever loaded for shoot lights out. Not finicky at all. BTW, push'em as fast as you can! :)
Post by: JDHasty on March 12, 2016, 10:38:16 PM
Perhaps in clinging to my vow I have limited my options, but I'm OK with that. The company has changed hands, but when I said: OK fine, you go your way and I will go mine I meant what I said.
I have no opinion on the value of their product. But when I make a statement that says never again, it mans never again and even though I might be better served by softening my stance I go to bed knowing that I have been true to myself.