Post by: 300rum on March 11, 2016, 12:32:23 PM
Post by: UBA on March 11, 2016, 02:29:09 PM
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 02:40:16 PM
http://www.sierrabullets.com/resources/bullet-selection/index.cfm
My assumption is that Sierra has tested thousands of these bullets for expansion and weight retention and has a good data set to base their conclusions on. I would defer to their expertise. Other people may have experience shooting game animals with shooting these bullets, but my inclination is that their experience is no where near as extensive or their testing as exhaustive as Sierra's has been. Sierra didn't just come up with this recommendation out of thin air, they are a company that is known for very thorough engineering.
This explicit statement on Sierra's part suggests to me that the failure rate of SMKs when used hunting game animals is higher than Sierra is comfortable with.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 11, 2016, 02:42:40 PM
I'm sure they don't work as hunting bullets the same as Berger target bullets don't work as hunting bullets.. :chuckle:
Btw the op was asking about real life experience shooting animals with smk bullets, not what you can drum up on google...
Post by: Buckjunkie on March 11, 2016, 05:02:46 PM
Post by: predatorpro on March 11, 2016, 05:17:46 PM
Outstanding use of Google hasty! :rolleyes:Lol my vld targets seem to kill deer just fine...8 shots 8 deer between me and the wife in the last 4 years...I wouldn't be afraid to use a match king on a deer...
I'm sure they don't work as hunting bullets the same as Berger target bullets don't work as hunting bullets.. :chuckle:
Btw the op was asking about real life experience shooting animals with smk bullets, not what you can drum up on google...
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 07:48:15 PM
Outstanding use of Google hasty! :rolleyes:
I'm sure they don't work as hunting bullets the same as Berger target bullets don't work as hunting bullets.. :chuckle:
Btw the op was asking about real life experience shooting animals with smk bullets, not what you can drum up on google...
Didn't use a search engine, I went directly to Sierra's site. Sierra sends out an eNewsletter and some time back they covered this topic in depth.
Sierra has ballistic engineers on their staff and they analyze the results of extensive testing using the scientific method. Google it if you are not familiar with the scientific method.
From my limited knowledge on the subject Berger does say that their research has shown that their target bullets (or at least some of their target bullets) do perform very satisfactorily on game animals. I would assume that Berger's engineers are probably capable of analyzing terminal ballistics and are just as capable as Sierra's engineering staff.
What your snark has indited has nothing to to do with impeaching my credibility or my response. What it illustrates is your contempt for the valuable work and expert advice that Sierra staff has done and provided to their customers and potential customers.
Ask yourself this: What does Sierra have to gain from advising potential customers to look elsewhere for a big game bullet?
OK now if you have not come up with Sierra valuing Sierra's integrity and Sierra's reputation then you are obviously lacking an appreciation of the value of the scientific method and/or are incapable of recognizing Sierra's staff and ownership as professionals who value their reputation and professional integrity above the profit motive.
Anyone can go forum shopping and find someone who will validate what they want to hear. Sometimes it is easy to find a source that will rely on "anecdotal evidence" of a limited number of test cases in which the witness has achieved results that are not consistent with conclusions drawn after extensive and exhaustive testing.
In the case of any bullet's performance on medium or big game, statistics almost demands that this will be the case. I bet you can also forum shop and find that Nosler Partitions are not a reliable big game bullet.
The problem here is that most all hunters do not have enough data to draw a valid conclusion because their sample size is far to low, so low IN FACT that any conclusion drawn shrinks to insignificance when compared to extensive and exhaustive study and scientific analysis of a statistically valid sample size.
Can you accept that Sierra did not take making this recommendation in a vacuum? Again what is in it for them to not have studied and analyzed the results of their testing before telling potential customers: look elsewhere? Nothing that I can get my mind around except their integrity and their reputation.
I will go out on a limb here and say that in Sierra's testing there were probably a lot of cases wherein the SMK bullet performed well enough for them to accept it as suitable for medium and even maybe on large game animals. What I do not have to go out on a limb to say is that the failure rate was high enough that it was above the threshold Sierra accepts as acceptable to suggest the use of the SMK on medium or big game that Sierra's staff and ownership decided that to make a declarative statement advising against such usage was warranted. Sierra does not see the use of the SMK for this application application as advisable or ethical. There I go again using that word.
Snipe at me, belittle my post that links to Sierra's website, if that is what floats your boat. But you have to know that in doing so you have exposed yourself as someone who is not to betaken seriously when it comes to having the ability to examine what is available and to be able to give various information the consideration it deserves.
No skin off my butt.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 11, 2016, 07:54:15 PM
Good work!Outstanding use of Google hasty! :rolleyes:
I'm sure they don't work as hunting bullets the same as Berger target bullets don't work as hunting bullets.. :chuckle:
Btw the op was asking about real life experience shooting animals with smk bullets, not what you can drum up on google...
Didn't use a search engine, I went directly to Sierra's site. Sierra sends out an eNewsletter and some time back they covered this topic in depth.
Sierra has ballistic engineers on their staff and they analyze the results of extensive testing using the scientific method. Google it if you are not familiar with the scientific method.
From my limited knowledge on the subject Berger does say that their research has shown that their target bullets (or at least some of their target bullets) do perform very satisfactorily on game animals. I would assume that Berger's engineers are probably capable of analyzing terminal ballistics and are just as capable as Sierra's engineering staff.
What your snark has indited has nothing to to do with impeaching my credibility or my response. What it illustrates is your contempt for the valuable work and expert advice that Sierra staff has done and provided to their customers and potential customers.
Ask yourself this: What does Sierra have to gain from advising potential customers to look elsewhere for a big game bullet?
OK now if you have not come up with Sierra valuing Sierra's integrity and Sierra's reputation then you are obviously lacking an appreciation of the value of the scientific method and/or are incapable of recognizing Sierra's staff and ownership as professionals who value their reputation and professional integrity above the profit motive.
Anyone can go forum shopping and find someone who will validate what they want to hear. Sometimes it is easy to find a source that will rely on "anecdotal evidence" of a limited number of test cases in which the witness has achieved results that are not consistent with conclusions drawn after extensive and exhaustive testing.
In the case of any bullet's performance on medium or big game, statistics almost demands that this will be the case. I bet you can also forum shop and find that Nosler Partitions are not a reliable big game bullet.
The problem here is that most all hunters do not have enough data to draw a valid conclusion because their sample size is far to low, so low IN FACT that any conclusion drawn shrinks to insignificance when compared to extensive and exhaustive study and scientific analysis of a statistically valid sample size.
Can you accept that Sierra did not take making this recommendation in a vacuum? Again what is in it for them to not have studied and analyzed the results of their testing before telling potential customers: look elsewhere? Nothing that I can get my mind around except their integrity and their reputation.
I will go out on a limb here and say that in Sierra's testing there were probably a lot of cases wherein the SMK bullet performed well enough for them to accept it as suitable for medium and even maybe on large game animals. What I do not have to go out on a limb to say is that the failure rate was high enough that it was above the threshold Sierra accepts as acceptable on medium or big game that Sierra's staff and ownership decided that to not make a declarative statement advising against such usage was warranted.
Snipe at me, belittle my post that links to Sierra's website, if that is what floats your boat. But you have to know that in doing so you have exposed yourself as someone who is not to betaken seriously when it comes to having the ability to examine what is available and give that information the consideration it deserves.
No skin off my butt.
Next time just answer the question hat the op asks and leave it at that.
No need to write a novel :twocents:
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on March 11, 2016, 07:54:55 PM
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on March 11, 2016, 07:58:40 PM
Good work!Outstanding use of Google hasty! :rolleyes:
I'm sure they don't work as hunting bullets the same as Berger target bullets don't work as hunting bullets.. :chuckle:
Btw the op was asking about real life experience shooting animals with smk bullets, not what you can drum up on google...
Didn't use a search engine, I went directly to Sierra's site. Sierra sends out an eNewsletter and some time back they covered this topic in depth.
Sierra has ballistic engineers on their staff and they analyze the results of extensive testing using the scientific method. Google it if you are not familiar with the scientific method.
From my limited knowledge on the subject Berger does say that their research has shown that their target bullets (or at least some of their target bullets) do perform very satisfactorily on game animals. I would assume that Berger's engineers are probably capable of analyzing terminal ballistics and are just as capable as Sierra's engineering staff.
What your snark has indited has nothing to to do with impeaching my credibility or my response. What it illustrates is your contempt for the valuable work and expert advice that Sierra staff has done and provided to their customers and potential customers.
Ask yourself this: What does Sierra have to gain from advising potential customers to look elsewhere for a big game bullet?
OK now if you have not come up with Sierra valuing Sierra's integrity and Sierra's reputation then you are obviously lacking an appreciation of the value of the scientific method and/or are incapable of recognizing Sierra's staff and ownership as professionals who value their reputation and professional integrity above the profit motive.
Anyone can go forum shopping and find someone who will validate what they want to hear. Sometimes it is easy to find a source that will rely on "anecdotal evidence" of a limited number of test cases in which the witness has achieved results that are not consistent with conclusions drawn after extensive and exhaustive testing.
In the case of any bullet's performance on medium or big game, statistics almost demands that this will be the case. I bet you can also forum shop and find that Nosler Partitions are not a reliable big game bullet.
The problem here is that most all hunters do not have enough data to draw a valid conclusion because their sample size is far to low, so low IN FACT that any conclusion drawn shrinks to insignificance when compared to extensive and exhaustive study and scientific analysis of a statistically valid sample size.
Can you accept that Sierra did not take making this recommendation in a vacuum? Again what is in it for them to not have studied and analyzed the results of their testing before telling potential customers: look elsewhere? Nothing that I can get my mind around except their integrity and their reputation.
I will go out on a limb here and say that in Sierra's testing there were probably a lot of cases wherein the SMK bullet performed well enough for them to accept it as suitable for medium and even maybe on large game animals. What I do not have to go out on a limb to say is that the failure rate was high enough that it was above the threshold Sierra accepts as acceptable on medium or big game that Sierra's staff and ownership decided that to not make a declarative statement advising against such usage was warranted.
Snipe at me, belittle my post that links to Sierra's website, if that is what floats your boat. But you have to know that in doing so you have exposed yourself as someone who is not to betaken seriously when it comes to having the ability to examine what is available and give that information the consideration it deserves.
No skin off my butt.
Next time just answer the question hat the op asks and leave it at that.
No need to write a novel :twocents:
Hey she believes everything she reads on the www.... it must b e true!!! Laffin
Post by: Bob33 on March 11, 2016, 08:15:52 PM
Outstanding use of Google hasty! :rolleyes:And your real life experience with them is...?
I'm sure they don't work as hunting bullets the same as Berger target bullets don't work as hunting bullets.. :chuckle:
Btw the op was asking about real life experience shooting animals with smk bullets, not what you can drum up on google...
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 11, 2016, 08:19:35 PM
Never shot them. but also never claimed to say the do or don't work.Outstanding use of Google hasty! :rolleyes:And your real life experience with them is...?
I'm sure they don't work as hunting bullets the same as Berger target bullets don't work as hunting bullets.. :chuckle:
Btw the op was asking about real life experience shooting animals with smk bullets, not what you can drum up on google...
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 08:34:56 PM
Good work!Outstanding use of Google hasty! :rolleyes:
I'm sure they don't work as hunting bullets the same as Berger target bullets don't work as hunting bullets.. :chuckle:
Btw the op was asking about real life experience shooting animals with smk bullets, not what you can drum up on google...
Didn't use a search engine, I went directly to Sierra's site. Sierra sends out an eNewsletter and some time back they covered this topic in depth.
Sierra has ballistic engineers on their staff and they analyze the results of extensive testing using the scientific method. Google it if you are not familiar with the scientific method.
From my limited knowledge on the subject Berger does say that their research has shown that their target bullets (or at least some of their target bullets) do perform very satisfactorily on game animals. I would assume that Berger's engineers are probably capable of analyzing terminal ballistics and are just as capable as Sierra's engineering staff.
What your snark has indited has nothing to to do with impeaching my credibility or my response. What it illustrates is your contempt for the valuable work and expert advice that Sierra staff has done and provided to their customers and potential customers.
Ask yourself this: What does Sierra have to gain from advising potential customers to look elsewhere for a big game bullet?
OK now if you have not come up with Sierra valuing Sierra's integrity and Sierra's reputation then you are obviously lacking an appreciation of the value of the scientific method and/or are incapable of recognizing Sierra's staff and ownership as professionals who value their reputation and professional integrity above the profit motive.
Anyone can go forum shopping and find someone who will validate what they want to hear. Sometimes it is easy to find a source that will rely on "anecdotal evidence" of a limited number of test cases in which the witness has achieved results that are not consistent with conclusions drawn after extensive and exhaustive testing.
In the case of any bullet's performance on medium or big game, statistics almost demands that this will be the case. I bet you can also forum shop and find that Nosler Partitions are not a reliable big game bullet.
The problem here is that most all hunters do not have enough data to draw a valid conclusion because their sample size is far to low, so low IN FACT that any conclusion drawn shrinks to insignificance when compared to extensive and exhaustive study and scientific analysis of a statistically valid sample size.
Can you accept that Sierra did not take making this recommendation in a vacuum? Again what is in it for them to not have studied and analyzed the results of their testing before telling potential customers: look elsewhere? Nothing that I can get my mind around except their integrity and their reputation.
I will go out on a limb here and say that in Sierra's testing there were probably a lot of cases wherein the SMK bullet performed well enough for them to accept it as suitable for medium and even maybe on large game animals. What I do not have to go out on a limb to say is that the failure rate was high enough that it was above the threshold Sierra accepts as acceptable on medium or big game that Sierra's staff and ownership decided that to not make a declarative statement advising against such usage was warranted.
Snipe at me, belittle my post that links to Sierra's website, if that is what floats your boat. But you have to know that in doing so you have exposed yourself as someone who is not to betaken seriously when it comes to having the ability to examine what is available and give that information the consideration it deserves.
No skin off my butt.
Next time just answer the question hat the op asks and leave it at that.
No need to write a novel :twocents:
The OP ask a question re: the SMK performance on big game. Sierra has done so much testing and analysis that to leave this consideration out of the discussion would not serve to provide a statistically valid response the OP.
Whatever anecdotal evidence is presented shrinks to statistical insignificance when considered in light of the extensive and exhaustive scientific study and analysis that Sierra has done.
There are people who go way beyond what ANY loading manual flat out states is a max load. They have never blown up a gun so they say that the loading manual publisher "does not know what they are talking about." But what they have no appreciation for is that so long as you are heading the advice published in a reputable loading manual the statistical chances of blowing up a gun are within acceptable limits. Go beyond that and it implies one of two things: 1) your tolerance for having the statistical chance your face will be blown off is not as conservative as the loading manual publisher accepts as within acceptable limits. Or 2) that you do not recognize that pressure can be influenced by cumulative causal factors. Either way, the data and analysis gained from dabbling you have done shrinks to insignificance when considered juxtaposed to the extensive and exhaustive data collection and analysis that trained professionals have done before they published a definitive statement of their conclusions in the form of loading data.
So it is with accepting conclusions drawn from anecdotal evidence gained from people who have used SMK bullets on big game. It depends on what your tolerance of experiencing terminal ballistic failure is. I prefer to err on the side of caution and do give COMMENSURATE consideration to what Sierra's staff and ownership have to offer free of charge. But then again, being an engineer by training and experience, I like to consider all of the data and give it a value commensurate with it's gravitas.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 11, 2016, 08:39:35 PM
Trust me I'm an engineer. :tung:Good work!Outstanding use of Google hasty! :rolleyes:
I'm sure they don't work as hunting bullets the same as Berger target bullets don't work as hunting bullets.. :chuckle:
Btw the op was asking about real life experience shooting animals with smk bullets, not what you can drum up on google...
Didn't use a search engine, I went directly to Sierra's site. Sierra sends out an eNewsletter and some time back they covered this topic in depth.
Sierra has ballistic engineers on their staff and they analyze the results of extensive testing using the scientific method. Google it if you are not familiar with the scientific method.
From my limited knowledge on the subject Berger does say that their research has shown that their target bullets (or at least some of their target bullets) do perform very satisfactorily on game animals. I would assume that Berger's engineers are probably capable of analyzing terminal ballistics and are just as capable as Sierra's engineering staff.
What your snark has indited has nothing to to do with impeaching my credibility or my response. What it illustrates is your contempt for the valuable work and expert advice that Sierra staff has done and provided to their customers and potential customers.
Ask yourself this: What does Sierra have to gain from advising potential customers to look elsewhere for a big game bullet?
OK now if you have not come up with Sierra valuing Sierra's integrity and Sierra's reputation then you are obviously lacking an appreciation of the value of the scientific method and/or are incapable of recognizing Sierra's staff and ownership as professionals who value their reputation and professional integrity above the profit motive.
Anyone can go forum shopping and find someone who will validate what they want to hear. Sometimes it is easy to find a source that will rely on "anecdotal evidence" of a limited number of test cases in which the witness has achieved results that are not consistent with conclusions drawn after extensive and exhaustive testing.
In the case of any bullet's performance on medium or big game, statistics almost demands that this will be the case. I bet you can also forum shop and find that Nosler Partitions are not a reliable big game bullet.
The problem here is that most all hunters do not have enough data to draw a valid conclusion because their sample size is far to low, so low IN FACT that any conclusion drawn shrinks to insignificance when compared to extensive and exhaustive study and scientific analysis of a statistically valid sample size.
Can you accept that Sierra did not take making this recommendation in a vacuum? Again what is in it for them to not have studied and analyzed the results of their testing before telling potential customers: look elsewhere? Nothing that I can get my mind around except their integrity and their reputation.
I will go out on a limb here and say that in Sierra's testing there were probably a lot of cases wherein the SMK bullet performed well enough for them to accept it as suitable for medium and even maybe on large game animals. What I do not have to go out on a limb to say is that the failure rate was high enough that it was above the threshold Sierra accepts as acceptable on medium or big game that Sierra's staff and ownership decided that to not make a declarative statement advising against such usage was warranted.
Snipe at me, belittle my post that links to Sierra's website, if that is what floats your boat. But you have to know that in doing so you have exposed yourself as someone who is not to betaken seriously when it comes to having the ability to examine what is available and give that information the consideration it deserves.
No skin off my butt.
Next time just answer the question hat the op asks and leave it at that.
No need to write a novel :twocents:
The OP ask a question re: the SMK performance on big game. Sierra has done so much testing and analysis that to leave this consideration out of the discussion would not serve to provide a statistically valid response the OP.
Whatever anecdotal evidence is presented shrinks to statistical insignificance when considered in light of the extensive and exhaustive scientific study and analysis that Sierra has done.
There are people who go way beyond what ANY loading manual flat out states is a max load. They have never blown up a gun so they say that the loading manual publisher "does not know what they are talking about." But what they have no appreciation for is that so long as you are heading the advice published in a reputable loading manual the statistical chances of blowing up a gun are within acceptable limits. Go beyond that and it implies one of two things: 1) your tolerance for having the statistical chance your face will be blown off is not as conservative as the loading manual accepts as acceptable. Or 2) that you do not recognize that pressure can be influenced by cumulative causal factors. Either way, the data and analysis gained from dabbling you have done shrinks to insignificance when considered juxtaposed to the extensive and exhaustive data collection and analysis that trained professionals have done before they published a definitive statement of their conclusions in the form of loading data.
So it is with accepting conclusions drawn from anecdotal evidence gained from people who have used SMK bullets on big game. It depends on what your tolerance of experiencing terminal ballistic failure is. I prefer to err on the side of caution and do give COMMENSURATE consideration to what Sierra's staff and ownership have to offer free of charge. But then again, being an engineer by training and experience, I like to consider all of the data and give it a value commensurate with it's gravitas.
Not understanding what published load data and pressure has to do with the lethality of a smk. Can you please clarify?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 11, 2016, 08:41:56 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 11, 2016, 08:42:41 PM
haha! I was just about to point out that Bullblaster is in fact an engineer. he also drives a prius so :dunno:Hey now! Can't let all my secrets out!
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 08:43:32 PM
Trust me I'm an engineer. :tung:Good work!Outstanding use of Google hasty! :rolleyes:
I'm sure they don't work as hunting bullets the same as Berger target bullets don't work as hunting bullets.. :chuckle:
Btw the op was asking about real life experience shooting animals with smk bullets, not what you can drum up on google...
Didn't use a search engine, I went directly to Sierra's site. Sierra sends out an eNewsletter and some time back they covered this topic in depth.
Sierra has ballistic engineers on their staff and they analyze the results of extensive testing using the scientific method. Google it if you are not familiar with the scientific method.
From my limited knowledge on the subject Berger does say that their research has shown that their target bullets (or at least some of their target bullets) do perform very satisfactorily on game animals. I would assume that Berger's engineers are probably capable of analyzing terminal ballistics and are just as capable as Sierra's engineering staff.
What your snark has indited has nothing to to do with impeaching my credibility or my response. What it illustrates is your contempt for the valuable work and expert advice that Sierra staff has done and provided to their customers and potential customers.
Ask yourself this: What does Sierra have to gain from advising potential customers to look elsewhere for a big game bullet?
OK now if you have not come up with Sierra valuing Sierra's integrity and Sierra's reputation then you are obviously lacking an appreciation of the value of the scientific method and/or are incapable of recognizing Sierra's staff and ownership as professionals who value their reputation and professional integrity above the profit motive.
Anyone can go forum shopping and find someone who will validate what they want to hear. Sometimes it is easy to find a source that will rely on "anecdotal evidence" of a limited number of test cases in which the witness has achieved results that are not consistent with conclusions drawn after extensive and exhaustive testing.
In the case of any bullet's performance on medium or big game, statistics almost demands that this will be the case. I bet you can also forum shop and find that Nosler Partitions are not a reliable big game bullet.
The problem here is that most all hunters do not have enough data to draw a valid conclusion because their sample size is far to low, so low IN FACT that any conclusion drawn shrinks to insignificance when compared to extensive and exhaustive study and scientific analysis of a statistically valid sample size.
Can you accept that Sierra did not take making this recommendation in a vacuum? Again what is in it for them to not have studied and analyzed the results of their testing before telling potential customers: look elsewhere? Nothing that I can get my mind around except their integrity and their reputation.
I will go out on a limb here and say that in Sierra's testing there were probably a lot of cases wherein the SMK bullet performed well enough for them to accept it as suitable for medium and even maybe on large game animals. What I do not have to go out on a limb to say is that the failure rate was high enough that it was above the threshold Sierra accepts as acceptable on medium or big game that Sierra's staff and ownership decided that to not make a declarative statement advising against such usage was warranted.
Snipe at me, belittle my post that links to Sierra's website, if that is what floats your boat. But you have to know that in doing so you have exposed yourself as someone who is not to betaken seriously when it comes to having the ability to examine what is available and give that information the consideration it deserves.
No skin off my butt.
Next time just answer the question hat the op asks and leave it at that.
No need to write a novel :twocents:
The OP ask a question re: the SMK performance on big game. Sierra has done so much testing and analysis that to leave this consideration out of the discussion would not serve to provide a statistically valid response the OP.
Whatever anecdotal evidence is presented shrinks to statistical insignificance when considered in light of the extensive and exhaustive scientific study and analysis that Sierra has done.
There are people who go way beyond what ANY loading manual flat out states is a max load. They have never blown up a gun so they say that the loading manual publisher "does not know what they are talking about." But what they have no appreciation for is that so long as you are heading the advice published in a reputable loading manual the statistical chances of blowing up a gun are within acceptable limits. Go beyond that and it implies one of two things: 1) your tolerance for having the statistical chance your face will be blown off is not as conservative as the loading manual accepts as acceptable. Or 2) that you do not recognize that pressure can be influenced by cumulative causal factors. Either way, the data and analysis gained from dabbling you have done shrinks to insignificance when considered juxtaposed to the extensive and exhaustive data collection and analysis that trained professionals have done before they published a definitive statement of their conclusions in the form of loading data.
So it is with accepting conclusions drawn from anecdotal evidence gained from people who have used SMK bullets on big game. It depends on what your tolerance of experiencing terminal ballistic failure is. I prefer to err on the side of caution and do give COMMENSURATE consideration to what Sierra's staff and ownership have to offer free of charge. But then again, being an engineer by training and experience, I like to consider all of the data and give it a value commensurate with it's gravitas.
Not understanding what published load data and pressure has to do with the lethality of a smk. Can you please clarify?
It has to do with having a statistically valid sample size to draw conclusions from.
Post by: coop2424 on March 11, 2016, 08:45:34 PM
haha! I was just about to point out that Bullblaster is in fact an engineer. he also drives a prius so :dunno:
Oh man drives a Prius he must be legit then!! I know a couple people that use smk in their long range rifles and they have had great success with them with no lost game..
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 11, 2016, 08:46:23 PM
That is a piece of knowledge that I will cherish for ever. :dunno:
Thanks for enlightening me hasty.
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 08:53:12 PM
They make them, they sell them and they do not see using them on big game as advisable. I have to believe that Sierra was not fudging in the direction of validating the SMK as an unreliable big game bullet. What, pray tell, would they have to gain from such an exercise?
Post by: coachcw on March 11, 2016, 08:59:45 PM
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 09:00:27 PM
haha! I was just about to point out that Bullblaster is in fact an engineer. he also drives a prius so :dunno:
Oh man drives a Prius he must be legit then!! I know a couple people that use smk in their long range rifles and they have had great success with them with no lost game..
What you are referencing is "anecdotal evidence." What I am saying is to juxtapose that against the multiple THOUSANDS of rounds that Sierra's staff has sent down range and studied and consider it in that light. Give it what consideration it deserves, not more, not less. Is it too much to ask that when forum shopping that some conclusions are more valid than others? If so, how so?
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 09:01:59 PM
Outstanding use of Google hasty! :rolleyes:And your real life experience with them is...?
I'm sure they don't work as hunting bullets the same as Berger target bullets don't work as hunting bullets.. :chuckle:
Btw the op was asking about real life experience shooting animals with smk bullets, not what you can drum up on google...
Insignificant when juxtaposed with multiple rounds that have been scientifically studied.
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 09:07:05 PM
I'd treat them like a berger .... if you can hit the pocket you will have catastrophic damage internally . Hit the shoulder and you may cringe on the out come. On a side note I've seen a Barnes x bullet punch strait through a deer out of a 30 /378 at 3200 fps or so with zero damage. Except a hole in the heart .
That may be why Sierra is perfectly comfortable with their conclusion to not only not recommend them, but to recommend against them for this application.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 11, 2016, 09:07:22 PM
I freely admitted that I have zero experience with them!Outstanding use of Google hasty! :rolleyes:And your real life experience with them is...?
I'm sure they don't work as hunting bullets the same as Berger target bullets don't work as hunting bullets.. :chuckle:
Btw the op was asking about real life experience shooting animals with smk bullets, not what you can drum up on google...
Insignificant when juxtaposed with multiple rounds that have been scientifically studied.
If that's what juxtaposed means then I guess your right.
Post by: TheSkyBuster on March 11, 2016, 09:08:30 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 11, 2016, 09:11:07 PM
I don't really think you have sufficient anecdotal evidence to have an opinion on me being able to call myself an engineer. Your sample size is far too small to creat an opinion... Any engineer would know that. :bash:So load data and if you are at or above max load will determine how well a smk will work to kill animals?
That is a piece of knowledge that I will cherish for ever. :dunno:
Thanks for enlightening me hasty.
And you call yourself an engineer?
Post by: coop2424 on March 11, 2016, 09:11:30 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 11, 2016, 09:12:44 PM
Wow, this thread has been totally derailed, personally I find the Gamekings performance and accuracy more than acceptable for hunting use so I have stuck to them. But now I'm curious about 1 thing: JDHasty, What kind of car do you drive?
:chuckle:
Sorry 300rum about your thread. :sry:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 11, 2016, 09:13:39 PM
I don't even know what these dang words mean that are being used.. I agree with coach and treat them like a Berger. This is not from my use but from what I have heard with my friends that use them..How large is your sample size to come to that conclusion? Or are you jus juxtaposing it?
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 09:13:47 PM
Post by: TheSkyBuster on March 11, 2016, 09:17:40 PM
White, 2011 F150 SCREW 4x4 Lariat Max Tow.
Way more practical than a Prius, but you might want to check your spelling..... SCREW CAB ? :chuckle:
Post by: washingtonhunter121 on March 11, 2016, 09:18:15 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 11, 2016, 09:21:00 PM
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 09:27:29 PM
Again, what is in it for them to say: look elsewhere, unless they are uncomfortable NOT saying look elsewhere.
My God man, at the very least show some respect for people whose career has been dedicated to giving us advice that is unimpeachable as being substantiated as being considered in light of what data they have had to consider.
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 09:31:39 PM
I've killed numerous animals with Berger target bullets with good results each time. Assuming they are similar to matchking I would expect similar results.
I accept that Berger is being honest in their analysis and accept that they perform well on big game. Sierra flat out states that the SMK does not perform acceptably. So far no one has answered the pertinent question: What is in it for Sierra to say - look elsewhere?
Post by: coop2424 on March 11, 2016, 09:34:50 PM
It is all in good fun, but when a manufacturer flat out states that failure rate is too high to be acceptable and we all know that Sierra is a company that we can trust then their opinion is not something to just blow off. Sierra staff are there to help us to make good decisions, they love their job and they would not IMHO dry shave us. For the love of God man, at the very least give these gentlemen the respect they have EARNED.
Again, what is in it for them to say: look elsewhere, unless they are uncomfortable NOT saying look elsewhere.
My God man, at the very least show some respect for people whose career has been dedicated to giving us advice that is unimpeachable as being substantiated as being considered in light of what data they have had to consider.
Sierra has to take account for the hunter that doesn't practice behind the rifle all year long and doesn't understand what the bullet does on impact... They also don't want to deal with the person that takes a shoulder shot on a big game animal with their bullets and them not performing.. It comes down to knowing what shots you can or can't take with your rifle and ammo. That's why it is wonderful to have choices on what you use while hunting depending on situations... :twocents:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 11, 2016, 09:37:37 PM
Right on the box for my Berger hybrids it says "not acceptable for hunting" and they seem to make things as dead as the interlocks I use also.I've killed numerous animals with Berger target bullets with good results each time. Assuming they are similar to matchking I would expect similar results.
I accept that Berger is being honest in their analysis and accept that they perform well on big game. Sierra flat out states that the SMK does not perform acceptably. So far no one has answered the pertinent question: What is in it for Sierra to say - look elsewhere?
Post by: jackelope on March 11, 2016, 09:40:02 PM
My God man, at the very least show some respect for people whose career has been dedicated to giving us advice that is unimpeachable as being substantiated as being considered in light of what data they have had to consider.
Yeah, because The good Lord knows no company would ever mislead a consumer.
Post by: predatorpro on March 11, 2016, 09:41:48 PM
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 09:48:02 PM
It is all in good fun, but when a manufacturer flat out states that failure rate is too high to be acceptable and we all know that Sierra is a company that we can trust then their opinion is not something to just blow off. Sierra staff are there to help us to make good decisions, they love their job and they would not IMHO dry shave us. For the love of God man, at the very least give these gentlemen the respect they have EARNED.
Again, what is in it for them to say: look elsewhere, unless they are uncomfortable NOT saying look elsewhere.
My God man, at the very least show some respect for people whose career has been dedicated to giving us advice that is unimpeachable as being substantiated as being considered in light of what data they have had to consider.
Sierra has to take account for the hunter that doesn't practice behind the rifle all year long and doesn't understand what the bullet does on impact... They also don't want to deal with the person that takes a shoulder shot on a big game animal with their bullets and them not performing.. It comes down to knowing what shots you can or can't take with your rifle and ammo. That's why it is wonderful to have choices on what you use while hunting depending on situations... :twocents:
Well maybe so... or maybe not. IRRC, and the probability is that I do not, one of the objections was that with a chest through both lung hit, and out the other side that SMK went through "like a pencil" and did not do much damage in too high a percentage of instances for Sierra to accept that as acceptable. Again, it is about sample size and how indicative lab results are of field performance. I will be up front with you and say that the article I reference I only skimmed. I shoot a lot of SGKs at varmints, but my big game bullet is the Nos Partition. I really did not focus on enough of the discussion to comment except I remember the conclusions. Again, what does Sierra have to gain by making it clear that they do not advise using the SMK on medium size big game? Actually they have a declarative statement on their website that it is advisable to look elsewhere for a big game bullet.
Post by: 257 Wby Mag on March 11, 2016, 09:50:31 PM
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 09:51:06 PM
Right on the box for my Berger hybrids it says "not acceptable for hunting" and they seem to make things as dead as the interlocks I use also.I've killed numerous animals with Berger target bullets with good results each time. Assuming they are similar to matchking I would expect similar results.
I accept that Berger is being honest in their analysis and accept that they perform well on big game. Sierra flat out states that the SMK does not perform acceptably. So far no one has answered the pertinent question: What is in it for Sierra to say - look elsewhere?
Again Berger probably has sent thousands of rounds down range and analyzed the probability of failure. You have anecdotal evidence that is statistically insignificant in comparison.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 11, 2016, 09:56:39 PM
ill keep going wth my statistically insignificant evidence and killing things. Once you get done reading you can do your own shooting and collecting your own evidence.Right on the box for my Berger hybrids it says "not acceptable for hunting" and they seem to make things as dead as the interlocks I use also.I've killed numerous animals with Berger target bullets with good results each time. Assuming they are similar to matchking I would expect similar results.
I accept that Berger is being honest in their analysis and accept that they perform well on big game. Sierra flat out states that the SMK does not perform acceptably. So far no one has answered the pertinent question: What is in it for Sierra to say - look elsewhere?
Again Berger probably has sent thousands of rounds down range and analyzed the probability of failure. You have anecdotal evidence that is statistically insignificant in comparison.
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 09:57:52 PM
My God man, at the very least show some respect for people whose career has been dedicated to giving us advice that is unimpeachable as being substantiated as being considered in light of what data they have had to consider.
Yeah, because The good Lord knows no company would ever mislead a consumer.
When they are telling you: Look elsewhere. Let's consider what is being said in context of increasing sales please. If you cannot appreciate the dichotomy between a company trying to increase market share saying buy, buY, bUY, BUY as opposed to a company saying: look elsewhere then there is no intelligent conversation to be had on this topic between you and I.
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 10:02:06 PM
ill keep going wth my statistically insignificant evidence and killing things. Once you get done reading you can do your own shooting and collecting your own evidence.Right on the box for my Berger hybrids it says "not acceptable for hunting" and they seem to make things as dead as the interlocks I use also.I've killed numerous animals with Berger target bullets with good results each time. Assuming they are similar to matchking I would expect similar results.
I accept that Berger is being honest in their analysis and accept that they perform well on big game. Sierra flat out states that the SMK does not perform acceptably. So far no one has answered the pertinent question: What is in it for Sierra to say - look elsewhere?
Again Berger probably has sent thousands of rounds down range and analyzed the probability of failure. You have anecdotal evidence that is statistically insignificant in comparison.
I am comfortable with selecting a bullet that the manufacturer does not go out of their way to advise against for a particular application because they recognize the terminal ballistic failure rate is in their estimation unacceptable. YMMV
Post by: yorketransport on March 11, 2016, 10:18:58 PM
Ask yourself this: What does Sierra have to gain from advising potential customers to look elsewhere for a big game bullet?
Their bullet can continue to be used in military/law enforcement ammunition which doesn't allow the use of expanding bullets? :dunno:
To promote the use of their alternate product line specifically designed to cater to hunters in order to double dip into the market?
I'd do a search to check this, but I prefer to rely on my anecdotal/redneck logic to come up with an answer.
Post by: JDHasty on March 11, 2016, 11:07:46 PM
Why not, given that bullets are not free, try bullets that the manufacturer does not advise against, see if they deliver the accuracy you demand first before looking in this direction and knowing that below a certain velocity you have a certified "non-performer" on big game at certain terminal velocities loaded up?
Post by: SeatoSummit88 on March 17, 2016, 08:19:11 AM
I was wondering if anyone has any experience with SMK's or the new TMK's for Deer size game? I don't really care what your feeling is if you should/shouldn't just wanted to know if anyone on here has any real life experience with them and how they did.
[/quote/
Jesus,
"I don't really care what your feeling is" ; "just wanted to know if anyone on here has had real life experience".
Why would "you" either click and paste, or begin to type something that original user didn't ask for. Like exactly what I am doing now. lol. If 300rum wanted to know what everyones thoughts were from a website,blogs or forums; then he would have typed that in too.
Post by: JDHasty on March 17, 2016, 09:01:19 AM
To demand that the opinion of the manufacturer be left out of the discussion, when the manufacturer has done more testing by an order of magnitude than the rest of the population combined, and has published a declarative statement advising that such use is not advisable seems awful self serving.
Post by: theleo on March 17, 2016, 09:48:20 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 17, 2016, 10:02:57 AM
Now juxtapose if I were to shoot a deer in the shoulder with an SMK...would do you 'tapose would happen? :dunno:
Post by: carpsniperg2 on March 17, 2016, 10:15:04 AM
I have found there result to be way better then Berger hunting bullets. We have had very good luck with there killing power and there is hardly a better that I can get to shoot better then a SMK.
None of the shots that I can remember have been into deep bone but more ribs and scapula.
Post by: JDHasty on March 17, 2016, 10:15:10 AM
No first hand knowledge but I remember an article in "Rifle" a few years ago by Greg Rodriguez about target bullets on game. The issue with SMK's was with the HP being so small that they sometimes didn't expand and would just pencil hole through animals, most of the time they acted like Burger's though. The comment from Sierra about SMK's doing that was basically, yeah we know that's why we don't recommend them for hunting. I won't get into the better bullet debate (Berger vs. Partition...) but just sharing knowledge from an article I read.
That is consistent with my recollection re: the article I reference. IIRC though, Sierra went beyond stating that they "sometimes didn't expand," Sierra said that they frequently did not expand, and the frequency in which there was a failure to expand was such that Sierra recommends against useing the SMK for use in hunting big game hunting applications.
Post by: coachcw on March 17, 2016, 11:33:55 AM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on March 17, 2016, 11:50:24 AM
Post by: 300rum on March 17, 2016, 01:12:31 PM
I remember buying a new holster a few years back. I read the instructions that came with it and it specifically said "Do not carry a loaded pistol in this holster". :chuckle:
To demand that the opinion of the manufacturer be left out of the discussion, when the manufacturer has done more testing by an order of magnitude than the rest of the population combined, and has published a declarative statement advising that such use is not advisable seems awful self serving.
Post by: 300rum on March 17, 2016, 01:17:41 PM
I figured there were a few rule breakers out there! :)
Post by: Utah on March 17, 2016, 04:39:11 PM
3 30-06's, 2 270's, 1 308, 2 260rems and in 1 6.5 creedmoor I've wasted more powder,primers and brass trying to find a load thats worth a crap. Me and Sierra's are a waste of time. I wish I could give you some valuable kill experience with them but I can't. Granted I'm only 8 years into hand loading. Never once a prob finding a decent MOA load with any other brands of bullets. I don't even bother anymore. JME and JMO
I have heard wonderful things from experienced killers of the 175gr gameking in the 7mm Rem mag.
Hope you have better results than I have.
Post by: grundy53 on March 17, 2016, 06:52:22 PM
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: actionshooter on March 17, 2016, 10:20:52 PM
My VLD hunting bullets perform WAY better.
Post by: jmscon on March 17, 2016, 10:31:59 PM
Post by: JDHasty on March 18, 2016, 08:40:22 AM
So if you have a bullet that goes through and through like a pencil, doesn't hit a vital organ: Just have a wounded animal that can travel a long distance. If you have a bullet that fragments: Lots of wasted / contaminated meat. Why not find something that expands well and has good weight retention that's more suitable for hunting big game? :twocents:
I was on the phone w/Sierra regarding another matter and the tech and I both had the luxury of time available to take an opportunity to discuss this topic.
Yes there is a narrow window in which the SMK does perform well on game.
-The primary failure mode is the hollow point collapsing in on itself and the bullet acts like a full patch (FMJ) bullet and goes through "like a pencil." When individuals are considering the SMK for big game hunting it is frequently the case that they are looking to maximize accuracy and minimize trajectory and wind drift, thereby increasing their effective range on thin skinned medium game such as deer and pronghorn. When shots are taken at the distances at which velocity has fallen off and the bullet hits an animal in the chest the EXPECTED result is this type of failure.
-The second failure mode is total fragmentation when impact is at a velocity is such that it is outside the optimal window on the high side. This bullet has a very thin jacket and it fragments, which is probably consistent w/"explodes," on impact w/soft tissue which frequently results in less than desired, and many times inadequate penetration. He offered that although some individuals recognize this as spectacular bullet performance that Sierra does not recognize that as such. It may look spectacular and the result may be instantaneous death, but they still recognize that event as "bullet failure" when the bullet totally fragments upon impact w soft tissue.
-The third failure mode is total fragmentation and failure to penetrate to the vitals if a bullet impacts heavy bone.
This bullet has been around a long time and Sierra has a pretty good understanding of what it's limitations are when it comes to use as a big game bullet. They are aware of "spectacular results," e.g they have seen them themselves and they also accept what is reported to them as genuine, but given their experience they do not feel that this is a good bullet for big game hunting applications.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 08:57:31 AM
When I worked in Wyoming we used Sierra 168gr .308 MK factory ammo in our work rifles. I estimate I've shot 80-100 injured and depredating deer and pronghorn myself, and have discussed their use extensively with my coworkers doing same, at ranges from 5 to 475 yards. They are very effective killers, and cause excessive damage due to fragmenting. A shot to a quarter will pretty well destroy the quarter, a broadside shot to the ribs will have a BIG exit and you may find jacket fragments and bits of lead almost anywhere in the animal. They are impressive for disabling an animal to the point it cannot flee, a finisher is often necessary to kill the animal quickly and humanely if hit in a quarter. I once shot a coyote at 150 yards, facing me, hit in the throat and through the spine, the exit was a fist-sized hole - to give an idea of how explosive they are.Get out of here with your real world nonsense Beau! :chuckle:
Post by: bobcat on March 18, 2016, 09:03:35 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 09:06:18 AM
Who wants lead fragments throughout all the meat? Not me. I've never used these bullets but from what I read in this thread, I know I never will. So many good bullets out there, why use one with questionable performance?Don't you shoot Berger's Bobcat? Basically similar performance. I've read all this same stuff about Berger bullets too. Somehow they continue to kill animals. Lots of em!
Post by: bobcat on March 18, 2016, 09:18:25 AM
Who wants lead fragments throughout all the meat? Not me. I've never used these bullets but from what I read in this thread, I know I never will. So many good bullets out there, why use one with questionable performance?Don't you shoot Berger's Bobcat? Basically similar performance. I've read all this same stuff about Berger bullets too. Somehow they continue to kill animals. Lots of em!
Yes, I've used 140 grain .277 Bergers on my bighorn sheep and two antelope and four deer in Wyoming. I decided to use them for their accuracy and high BC. No problems with lack of penetration or excessive meat loss.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 09:32:53 AM
Same reasons lots of guys shoot the match kings......Who wants lead fragments throughout all the meat? Not me. I've never used these bullets but from what I read in this thread, I know I never will. So many good bullets out there, why use one with questionable performance?Don't you shoot Berger's Bobcat? Basically similar performance. I've read all this same stuff about Berger bullets too. Somehow they continue to kill animals. Lots of em!
Yes, I've used 140 grain .277 Bergers on my bighorn sheep and two antelope and four deer in Wyoming. I decided to use them for their accuracy and high BC. No problems with lack of penetration or excessive meat loss.
Post by: bobcat on March 18, 2016, 09:39:54 AM
So I have to ask, why not use the Sierra Game King? I've used them in the past and they're accurate with a high BC, and work well on deer.
Post by: JDHasty on March 18, 2016, 09:40:52 AM
Who wants lead fragments throughout all the meat? Not me. I've never used these bullets but from what I read in this thread, I know I never will. So many good bullets out there, why use one with questionable performance?Don't you shoot Berger's Bobcat? Basically similar performance. I've read all this same stuff about Berger bullets too. Somehow they continue to kill animals. Lots of em!
Yes, I've used 140 grain .277 Bergers on my bighorn sheep and two antelope and four deer in Wyoming. I decided to use them for their accuracy and high BC. No problems with lack of penetration or excessive meat loss.
I know that Berger recommends some of their "match" or VLD bullets for hunting applications.
According to Doubleliung: "The SMK are very effective killers, and cause excessive damage due to fragmenting. A shot to a quarter will pretty well destroy the quarter, a broadside shot to the ribs will have a BIG exit and you may find jacket fragments and bits of lead almost anywhere in the animal." This is almost verbatim what I was told by the Sierra tech I spoke with this morning.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 09:44:46 AM
The meat was actually cleaner than the city water from a heavy metals standpoint.
I'll continue to use match target bullets as long as they shoot well and perform as I expect. :twocents: my experience is with bergers and not match kings but they are close enough to one another that I would expect similar results.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 09:46:45 AM
So don't shoot em in the shoulder :dunno: I refuse to believe that people should compensate for poor marksmanship by up sizing calibers or thinking a certain bullet will solve all the world's problems. Shoot em in the ribs and go collect your animal. If you can't put the bullet where you want it, you shouldn't be taking the shot :twocents:Who wants lead fragments throughout all the meat? Not me. I've never used these bullets but from what I read in this thread, I know I never will. So many good bullets out there, why use one with questionable performance?Don't you shoot Berger's Bobcat? Basically similar performance. I've read all this same stuff about Berger bullets too. Somehow they continue to kill animals. Lots of em!
Yes, I've used 140 grain .277 Bergers on my bighorn sheep and two antelope and four deer in Wyoming. I decided to use them for their accuracy and high BC. No problems with lack of penetration or excessive meat loss.
I know that Berger recommends some of their "match" or VLD bullets for hunting applications.
According to Doubleliung: "The SMK are very effective killers, and cause excessive damage due to fragmenting. A shot to a quarter will pretty well destroy the quarter, a broadside shot to the ribs will have a BIG exit and you may find jacket fragments and bits of lead almost anywhere in the animal." This is almost verbatim what I was told by the Sierra tech I spoke with this morning.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 09:47:38 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 09:56:48 AM
Even Berger said their bullets don't work for hunting when they started. It wasn't until people started using them that Berger then changed their mind.
Goes to show we should always take what we are told on packaging and manufacturer recommendations as gospel... :dunno:
Post by: jay.sharkbait on March 18, 2016, 09:59:53 AM
Post by: jackelope on March 18, 2016, 10:04:51 AM
So don't shoot em in the shoulder :dunno: I refuse to believe that people should compensate for poor marksmanship by up sizing calibers or thinking a certain bullet will solve all the world's problems. Shoot em in the ribs and go collect your animal. If you can't put the bullet where you want it, you shouldn't be taking the shot :twocents:Who wants lead fragments throughout all the meat? Not me. I've never used these bullets but from what I read in this thread, I know I never will. So many good bullets out there, why use one with questionable performance?Don't you shoot Berger's Bobcat? Basically similar performance. I've read all this same stuff about Berger bullets too. Somehow they continue to kill animals. Lots of em!
Yes, I've used 140 grain .277 Bergers on my bighorn sheep and two antelope and four deer in Wyoming. I decided to use them for their accuracy and high BC. No problems with lack of penetration or excessive meat loss.
I know that Berger recommends some of their "match" or VLD bullets for hunting applications.
According to Doubleliung: "The SMK are very effective killers, and cause excessive damage due to fragmenting. A shot to a quarter will pretty well destroy the quarter, a broadside shot to the ribs will have a BIG exit and you may find jacket fragments and bits of lead almost anywhere in the animal." This is almost verbatim what I was told by the Sierra tech I spoke with this morning.
I just bought myself a sweet new .458 Lott. Can't wait to use it on the high hunt this year.
What?
:dunno:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 10:06:34 AM
Do they make match kings for it?So don't shoot em in the shoulder :dunno: I refuse to believe that people should compensate for poor marksmanship by up sizing calibers or thinking a certain bullet will solve all the world's problems. Shoot em in the ribs and go collect your animal. If you can't put the bullet where you want it, you shouldn't be taking the shot :twocents:Who wants lead fragments throughout all the meat? Not me. I've never used these bullets but from what I read in this thread, I know I never will. So many good bullets out there, why use one with questionable performance?Don't you shoot Berger's Bobcat? Basically similar performance. I've read all this same stuff about Berger bullets too. Somehow they continue to kill animals. Lots of em!
Yes, I've used 140 grain .277 Bergers on my bighorn sheep and two antelope and four deer in Wyoming. I decided to use them for their accuracy and high BC. No problems with lack of penetration or excessive meat loss.
I know that Berger recommends some of their "match" or VLD bullets for hunting applications.
According to Doubleliung: "The SMK are very effective killers, and cause excessive damage due to fragmenting. A shot to a quarter will pretty well destroy the quarter, a broadside shot to the ribs will have a BIG exit and you may find jacket fragments and bits of lead almost anywhere in the animal." This is almost verbatim what I was told by the Sierra tech I spoke with this morning.
I just bought myself a sweet new .458 Lott. Can't wait to use it on the high hunt this year.
What?
:dunno:
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 18, 2016, 10:07:32 AM
Shoot em in the ribs and go collect your animal.
:yeah: pretty simple :tup:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 10:09:23 AM
:yeah:Shoot em in the ribs and go collect your animal.
:yeah: pretty simple :tup:
Post by: jackelope on March 18, 2016, 10:13:36 AM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160318%2Fb200b7b009969d58088d0df0ee164b16.jpg&hash=98271f1af5805705e7a93eeb98ba8bf56dd88e75)
Post by: JDHasty on March 18, 2016, 10:14:31 AM
I'm not sure I buy the lead fragments all throughout the animal. My fiancé used to work for an environmental testing company and we were curious so after her shooting a deer with a Berger bullet I bagged up some of the bloodshot meat from the wound, a piece of the liver, and another random piece of clean meat from the animal in separate bags and sent to work with her. None of the samples including the one from the wound had any detectable lead levels. Or any other bad stuff for that matter.
The meat was actually cleaner than the city water from a heavy metals standpoint.
I'll continue to use match target bullets as long as they shoot well and perform as I expect. :twocents: my experience is with bergers and not match kings but they are close enough to one another that I would expect similar results.
Direct quote from your post @ 9:47 "The Berger target bullets have a thicker jacket."
I am curious what methodology allows a person to extend the likelihood of similar bullet performance to a bullet recognized as having totally dissimilar construction? :dunno:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 10:19:42 AM
a thicker jacket than the Berger hunting bullets.I'm not sure I buy the lead fragments all throughout the animal. My fiancé used to work for an environmental testing company and we were curious so after her shooting a deer with a Berger bullet I bagged up some of the bloodshot meat from the wound, a piece of the liver, and another random piece of clean meat from the animal in separate bags and sent to work with her. None of the samples including the one from the wound had any detectable lead levels. Or any other bad stuff for that matter.
The meat was actually cleaner than the city water from a heavy metals standpoint.
I'll continue to use match target bullets as long as they shoot well and perform as I expect. :twocents: my experience is with bergers and not match kings but they are close enough to one another that I would expect similar results.
Direct quote from your post @ 9:47 "The Berger target bullets have a thicker jacket."
I am curious what methodology allows a person to extend the likelihood of similar bullet performance to a bullet recognized as having totally dissimilar construction? :dunno:
I have used both the Berger hunting and target bullets to take game and am please with performance of both.
Since my entire post was referring to the Berger bullets, one would assume that the reader would understand and comprehend that I was comparing the Berger target and hunting bullets.
Post by: JDHasty on March 18, 2016, 10:33:42 AM
a thicker jacket than the Berger hunting bullets.I'm not sure I buy the lead fragments all throughout the animal. My fiancé used to work for an environmental testing company and we were curious so after her shooting a deer with a Berger bullet I bagged up some of the bloodshot meat from the wound, a piece of the liver, and another random piece of clean meat from the animal in separate bags and sent to work with her. None of the samples including the one from the wound had any detectable lead levels. Or any other bad stuff for that matter.
The meat was actually cleaner than the city water from a heavy metals standpoint.
I'll continue to use match target bullets as long as they shoot well and perform as I expect. :twocents: my experience is with bergers and not match kings but they are close enough to one another that I would expect similar results.
I am curious what methodology allows a person to extend the likelihood of similar bullet performance to a bullet recognized as having totally dissimilar construction? :dunno:
I have used both the Berger hunting and target bullets to take game and am please with performance of both.
Since my entire post was referring to the Berger bullets, one would assume that the reader would understand and comprehend that I was comparing the Berger target and hunting bullets.
Direct quote form your post @ 9:45 "my experience is with bergers and not match kings but they are close enough to one another that I would expect similar results."
You state that Berger match target bullets have thicker jackets, Sierra states that SMK bullets have very thin jackets, with an emphasis on very. Being that there is an accepted positive correlation between jacket thickness and a bullet's structural integrity, my question, as an engineer is, what would lead you to expect that these two bullets would yield similar results?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 10:39:14 AM
If the hunting vld has a thinner jacket, I would assume it would be closer to the SMK than the target vld :dunno:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 10:44:39 AM
Here we go again...
The Berger hunting bullets have a thinner jacket than the Berger target bullets.
When comparing A thin jacket cup and core bullet ( Berger hunting) with a thin jacket cup and core bullet (match King) the assumption can be made that they will behave similarly. Especially since the very slightly thicker jacket cup and core ( Berger target) behaves in a very similar manner. :twocents:
I am not sure how easier to explain it in a way that you may understand. :dunno:
Again my comment of thicker jacket was in comparison to the Berger hunting bullet. You need to comprehend what my posts are saying. :bash:
It is widely known that the matchking and Berger are of very similar construction.
Post by: jackelope on March 18, 2016, 10:44:55 AM
He didn't state that the berger target had a thicker jacket than the smk's. He said the target vld had a thicker jacket than the hunting vld :dunno:
If the hunting vld has a thinner jacket, I would assume it would be closer to the SMK than the target vld :dunno:
Careful. This is a discussion/debate between 2 engineers. This could get a little more nuts.
Post by: jackelope on March 18, 2016, 10:45:54 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 18, 2016, 10:46:23 AM
He didn't state that the berger target had a thicker jacket than the smk's. He said the target vld had a thicker jacket than the hunting vld :dunno:
If the hunting vld has a thinner jacket, I would assume it would be closer to the SMK than the target vld :dunno:
Careful. This is a discussion/debate between 2 engineers. This could get a little more nuts.
Let's hear more about this .458 Lott
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 10:47:15 AM
He didn't state that the berger target had a thicker jacket than the smk's. He said the target vld had a thicker jacket than the hunting vld :dunno:
If the hunting vld has a thinner jacket, I would assume it would be closer to the SMK than the target vld :dunno:
Careful. This is a discussion/debate between 2 engineers. This could get a little more nuts.
Are you sure about that? My standing as an engineer has already been questioned once in this thread by the other engineer... I'm not sure I count anymore. :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on March 18, 2016, 10:48:31 AM
He didn't state that the berger target had a thicker jacket than the smk's. He said the target vld had a thicker jacket than the hunting vld :dunno:
If the hunting vld has a thinner jacket, I would assume it would be closer to the SMK than the target vld :dunno:
Careful. This is a discussion/debate between 2 engineers. This could get a little more nuts.
Are you sure about that? My standing as an engineer has already been questioned once in this thread by the other engineer... I'm not sure I count anymore. :chuckle:
I deal with engineers every day. I wouldn't expect anything less.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 10:52:14 AM
He didn't state that the berger target had a thicker jacket than the smk's. He said the target vld had a thicker jacket than the hunting vld :dunno:
If the hunting vld has a thinner jacket, I would assume it would be closer to the SMK than the target vld :dunno:
Careful. This is a discussion/debate between 2 engineers. This could get a little more nuts.
Are you sure about that? My standing as an engineer has already been questioned once in this thread by the other engineer... I'm not sure I count anymore. :chuckle:
I deal with engineers every day. I wouldn't expect anything less.
:sry: :tung:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 10:53:59 AM
Step 1. Have accurate rifle
Step 2. Become proficient with said rifle
Step 3. Find animal
Step 4. Shoot said animal in vitals
Step 5. Eat animal
:tup:
Post by: Woodchuck on March 18, 2016, 10:58:34 AM
You guys service trains there to? Wow, cool. :tup:He didn't state that the berger target had a thicker jacket than the smk's. He said the target vld had a thicker jacket than the hunting vld :dunno:
If the hunting vld has a thinner jacket, I would assume it would be closer to the SMK than the target vld :dunno:
Careful. This is a discussion/debate between 2 engineers. This could get a little more nuts.
Are you sure about that? My standing as an engineer has already been questioned once in this thread by the other engineer... I'm not sure I count anymore. :chuckle:
I deal with engineers every day. I wouldn't expect anything less.
Post by: Curly on March 18, 2016, 11:25:31 AM
:brew:
:EAT:
Post by: Dan-o on March 18, 2016, 11:35:35 AM
If a mfgr. Recommended against using their bullet on deer, I would not use it on deer.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 11:37:55 AM
On a more serious note, I think JD has a really valid point.yes, but the simple fact is, they are very effective killers, and many, many hunters use them with great success. :twocents:
If a mfgr. Recommended against using their bullet on deer, I would not use it on deer.
Post by: JDHasty on March 18, 2016, 11:51:19 AM
On a more serious note, I think JD has a really valid point.yes, but the simple fact is, they are very effective killers, and many, many hunters use them with great success. :twocents:
If a mfgr. Recommended against using their bullet on deer, I would not use it on deer.
And what is left out of the discussion above is that I never have said "don't use them." What I have said to give due consideration to what the manufacturer has to say - and that implies, before making an ultimate decision. Give due consideration is understanding where Sierra is coming from, benefiting from what research they have done and understanding the limitations of the SMK when used for this application if you do decide to use them.
Post by: jackelope on March 18, 2016, 11:51:57 AM
I guess I prefer the weight retention type bullets personally. Those with a white tip...
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 11:56:48 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 12:08:11 PM
Personally, I'd be more concerned with meat loss, i.e. blood-shot meat than anything else using these splatter type bullets. I'm sure they kill stuff extremely dead. Dare I mention a Nosler Ballistic Tip? Would this type of bullet fit the same sort of conversation? I've seen those bullets make deer extremely dead, but when they grenade inside the animal, they do ruin a bunch of meat.guy at the gun counter at Cabelas yesterday was telling me how crap accubonds were. Core always seperating from jacket and such :chuckle:
I guess I prefer the weight retention type bullets personally. Those with a white tip...
Post by: grundy53 on March 18, 2016, 12:49:35 PM
He obviously knows what he's talking about since he works at the Cabelas gun counter... :chuckle:Personally, I'd be more concerned with meat loss, i.e. blood-shot meat than anything else using these splatter type bullets. I'm sure they kill stuff extremely dead. Dare I mention a Nosler Ballistic Tip? Would this type of bullet fit the same sort of conversation? I've seen those bullets make deer extremely dead, but when they grenade inside the animal, they do ruin a bunch of meat.guy at the gun counter at Cabelas yesterday was telling me how crap accubonds were. Core always seperating from jacket and such :chuckle:
I guess I prefer the weight retention type bullets personally. Those with a white tip...
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 12:54:29 PM
I've come to the conclusion that it's more of a gun counter thing in general more than an exclusive cabelas thing :chuckle:He obviously knows what he's talking about since he works at the Cabelas gun counter... :chuckle:Personally, I'd be more concerned with meat loss, i.e. blood-shot meat than anything else using these splatter type bullets. I'm sure they kill stuff extremely dead. Dare I mention a Nosler Ballistic Tip? Would this type of bullet fit the same sort of conversation? I've seen those bullets make deer extremely dead, but when they grenade inside the animal, they do ruin a bunch of meat.guy at the gun counter at Cabelas yesterday was telling me how crap accubonds were. Core always seperating from jacket and such :chuckle:
I guess I prefer the weight retention type bullets personally. Those with a white tip...
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 01:29:09 PM
Gun counters need to hire engineers!I've come to the conclusion that it's more of a gun counter thing in general more than an exclusive cabelas thing :chuckle:He obviously knows what he's talking about since he works at the Cabelas gun counter... :chuckle:Personally, I'd be more concerned with meat loss, i.e. blood-shot meat than anything else using these splatter type bullets. I'm sure they kill stuff extremely dead. Dare I mention a Nosler Ballistic Tip? Would this type of bullet fit the same sort of conversation? I've seen those bullets make deer extremely dead, but when they grenade inside the animal, they do ruin a bunch of meat.guy at the gun counter at Cabelas yesterday was telling me how crap accubonds were. Core always seperating from jacket and such :chuckle:
I guess I prefer the weight retention type bullets personally. Those with a white tip...
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 01:37:18 PM
employee discount! Good thinking :chuckle:Gun counters need to hire engineers!I've come to the conclusion that it's more of a gun counter thing in general more than an exclusive cabelas thing :chuckle:He obviously knows what he's talking about since he works at the Cabelas gun counter... :chuckle:Personally, I'd be more concerned with meat loss, i.e. blood-shot meat than anything else using these splatter type bullets. I'm sure they kill stuff extremely dead. Dare I mention a Nosler Ballistic Tip? Would this type of bullet fit the same sort of conversation? I've seen those bullets make deer extremely dead, but when they grenade inside the animal, they do ruin a bunch of meat.guy at the gun counter at Cabelas yesterday was telling me how crap accubonds were. Core always seperating from jacket and such :chuckle:
I guess I prefer the weight retention type bullets personally. Those with a white tip...
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 01:38:41 PM
Could be my night gig!employee discount! Good thinking :chuckle:Gun counters need to hire engineers!I've come to the conclusion that it's more of a gun counter thing in general more than an exclusive cabelas thing :chuckle:He obviously knows what he's talking about since he works at the Cabelas gun counter... :chuckle:Personally, I'd be more concerned with meat loss, i.e. blood-shot meat than anything else using these splatter type bullets. I'm sure they kill stuff extremely dead. Dare I mention a Nosler Ballistic Tip? Would this type of bullet fit the same sort of conversation? I've seen those bullets make deer extremely dead, but when they grenade inside the animal, they do ruin a bunch of meat.guy at the gun counter at Cabelas yesterday was telling me how crap accubonds were. Core always seperating from jacket and such :chuckle:
I guess I prefer the weight retention type bullets personally. Those with a white tip...
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: theleo on March 18, 2016, 01:47:09 PM
In my experience awesome dramatic bangflops are worse on meat than a double lung runner usually.
In my experience double lung runners can make for more difficult pack outs than dramatic bangflops.
Why is every body using this emoji :dunno:? I just don't get it. :dunno:
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 01:48:59 PM
I usually always prefer dramatic bangflops when given the chance.In my experience awesome dramatic bangflops are worse on meat than a double lung runner usually.
In my experience double lung runners can make for more difficult pack outs than dramatic bangflops.
Why is every body using this emoji :dunno:? I just don't get it. :dunno:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 01:53:13 PM
:chuckle: I see what you did there with the :dunno:In my experience awesome dramatic bangflops are worse on meat than a double lung runner usually.
In my experience double lung runners can make for more difficult pack outs than dramatic bangflops.
Why is every body using this emoji :dunno:? I just don't get it. :dunno:
:chuckle:
Post by: theleo on March 18, 2016, 02:14:22 PM
I usually always prefer dramatic bangflops when given the chance.
So you prefer wasting meat? I thought meat waste was a bad thing. :dunno:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 02:17:42 PM
I am so confused now guys :dunno: you gotta remember I'm not an engineer :chuckle:I usually always prefer dramatic bangflops when given the chance.
So you prefer wasting meat? I thought meat waste was a bad thing. :dunno:
Post by: jackelope on March 18, 2016, 02:26:59 PM
I've come to the conclusion that it's more of a gun counter thing in general more than an exclusive cabelas thing :chuckle:He obviously knows what he's talking about since he works at the Cabelas gun counter... :chuckle:Personally, I'd be more concerned with meat loss, i.e. blood-shot meat than anything else using these splatter type bullets. I'm sure they kill stuff extremely dead. Dare I mention a Nosler Ballistic Tip? Would this type of bullet fit the same sort of conversation? I've seen those bullets make deer extremely dead, but when they grenade inside the animal, they do ruin a bunch of meat.guy at the gun counter at Cabelas yesterday was telling me how crap accubonds were. Core always seperating from jacket and such :chuckle:
I guess I prefer the weight retention type bullets personally. Those with a white tip...
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
BWwwaahahahaha.....!!!!!
Post by: theleo on March 18, 2016, 03:05:00 PM
Now the Match-King is a fine and superbly accurate bullet, but in the field, accuracy does not trump the predictable terminal performance designed into true hunting bullets.
Read more: http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_matchbullets_200909/#ixzz43IJ7qp00
Not surprisingly, the MatchKing is also the match bullet most often touted as suitable for hunting by the accuracy-is-everything crowd, despite the fact that even Sierra says the MatchKing is not suitable for hunting. I guess those self-appointed, Internet-chat-room geniuses don’t think the folks at Sierra know anything about their own bullets.
Read more: http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_matchbullets_200909/#ixzz43IJVymyP
Of the 15 deer and 11 hogs that ran more than 30 yards, all but one were shot well. That pig was lost. I cannot fault the Match-King because the shot placement was very poor, but a more solidly constructed bullet would almost certainly have given more penetration and a blood trail, which would have upped our odds of finding that hog.
Of the other 25 animals, only one was lost that appeared to be shot well. My client shot that buck on the point of the shoulder with his .308 from about 115 yards. I heard the bullet strike and saw the impact about halfway up, just behind the near shoulder. That buck should have been dead within 50 yards, but there was no blood trail, and we never saw the deer again. Back at camp, the video backed up my first impression–the shot was a good one. Still, we never recovered the deer. Based on the shot placement and past experiences with the MatchKing on such shots, I can surmise that the bullet passed right through without opening up because it didn’t strike bone or solid muscle.
We recovered the other animals that ran over 30 yards, but internal damage and penetration were inconsistent. Penetration varied a great deal, with six bullets exiting and three failing to make it past the first lung. Expansion and the resulting wound channels were also inconsistent. Some of the wound channels were bloodied, jellied wrecks, while others were no more than .30-caliber pencil holes. The disconcerting part was there was no rhyme or reason; they would exit on shoulder shots one time and not make it past one lung on another, even when no bones were struck. Yes, the animals all died, but those results are indicative of what happens when you choose a bullet designed to shoot tiny groups over a hunting bullet designed to deliver consistent penetration and expansion on game.
Read more: http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_matchbullets_200909/#ixzz43IJtLidH
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 18, 2016, 03:54:17 PM
It comes down to real experience again. Keep reading the articles and I'll keep killing animals and sending rounds down range to form my own opinions.
This horse has been thoroughly beaten and I am going to bow out of this thread in the hopes it goes away.
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 18, 2016, 03:57:05 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 04:04:17 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 04:13:28 PM
I was wondering if anyone has any experience with SMK's or the new TMK's for Deer size game? I don't really care what your feeling is if you should/shouldn't just wanted to know if anyone on here has any real life experience with them and how they did.I refer back to the OP's ORIGINAL QUESTION.............................
Post by: jkthomps on March 18, 2016, 04:18:00 PM
I was wondering if anyone has any experience with SMK's or the new TMK's for Deer size game? I don't really care what your feeling is if you should/shouldn't just wanted to know if anyone on here has any real life experience with them and how they did.I do. They did great.
The end.
Post by: Utah on March 18, 2016, 05:18:33 PM
This thread is like a cottonwood tree...shouldn't have been left to grow
5 pages of interested guy's can't be wrong. But I'm anti ban so I'll respectfully disagree! :) I can't believe all these guys can get the Sierra to shoot! Amazing!! :o
Post by: Karl Blanchard on March 18, 2016, 05:27:51 PM
:chuckle: I don't even shoot them, I just don't like it when people tell other people that they can't and shouldn't do something, when it is obviously something that is done regularly.This thread is like a cottonwood tree...shouldn't have been left to grow
5 pages of interested guy's can't be wrong. But I'm anti ban so I'll respectfully disagree! :) I can't believe all these guys can get the Sierra to shoot! Amazing!! :o
Post by: Utah on March 18, 2016, 05:31:36 PM
Post by: dog on March 18, 2016, 05:48:47 PM
Post by: Utah on March 18, 2016, 05:58:38 PM
Post by: JDHasty on March 18, 2016, 07:54:25 PM
:chuckle: I don't even shoot them, I just don't like it when people tell other people that they can't and shouldn't do something, when it is obviously something that is done regularly.This thread is like a cottonwood tree...shouldn't have been left to grow
5 pages of interested guy's can't be wrong. But I'm anti ban so I'll respectfully disagree! :) I can't believe all these guys can get the Sierra to shoot! Amazing!! :o
With all due respect, I simply stated that this is something to consider. I have not said "ban them." Or have I implied that? If I have then I have to be more careful regarding my choice of words.
Post by: h20hunter on March 18, 2016, 07:57:33 PM
Post by: JDHasty on March 18, 2016, 09:01:47 PM
For what it's worth, years ago I did some informal testing on the 168gr 30 cal matchking and it really changed my thinking on them. I shot them and also 30 cal hornady interlocks through heavy phone books at 100 yds. It was surprising to me that the MKs just poked right on through without expanding. Basically the same size hole coming out as going in. The hornadys on the other hand had a small hole going in and blew out the back side dramatically with a huge hole. I had expected the MKs with their light jacket to hit and basically blow up inside but that was not the case at all, with numerous shots.
Here is my experience with SMK on (small) game animals. I have not posted it because it is limited to 224 caliber SMK bullets used on chucks and prairie dogs.
I hunted with a guy that shot them next to me for a short while. I was shooting the SGK 1390 & 1365 and was tearing dogs and chucks in half up close and killing them decisively at longer range (out to 550 yards plus or minus a few) using my 22-250. He was loading the SMK in both his 22-250 & 223 and I personally witnessed the type of performance you are describing in the field.
When spotting for him I would see center chest hits leave a blood spot and the same with hits in the gut and watch chucks and prairie dogs just stand there or scramble down after being well hit. I have seen a lot of chucks and prairie dogs just sit there until they fell over dead.
With marginal hits he was leaving cripples all over the place. To be up front this was decades ago and I cannot remember how the ones that expanded performed, but that did not stick with me.
If this straight through performance had not been so common it would not have stuck with me all these years.
On a trip to Eburg & Royal for coyotes he shot one coyote a bit far back and although we found a six inch piece of intestine after tracking it for a half mile with only little droplets of blood to follow. That coyote was not recovered, the blood stopped after about another quarter-mile. The shot was at about 120 yards and I saw the impact through my binocular and the coyote did not slow down.
But, I am comparing apples to oranges in extrapolating that experience to using the larger caliber SMK bullet on larger game.
I don't have any experience with their use on larger game, I am shooting the same "blemished" 308 Nosler 180 Partitions, that I got from Jack Slack, at big game that I have shot for going on four decades and still have a half dozen of the heat sealed plastic bags of fifty left from the eight bags I started with.
My routine is to go to the range with my Mod 70 300 Wby Winlite early in the season and shoot a three shot clover leaf at a hundred yards and then clean it, shoot one more (that is about a half inch out of the group) and put it away until hunting season.
Then I take out my Kimber of Oregon 30-06 and repeat that process. I honestly don't feel the least bit handicapped not ruining the barrel on my 300 because I send north of five or six hundred rounds of 243 downrange at various and sundry varmints from my Mod 70 and as far as having a pretty darn good idea what the trajectory and wind drift of my 300 Wby is because it is so similar to the 22-250s, 17 Rem and 243s that I shoot at varmints all year out to their respective range.
My buddy who was shooting the SMKs at varmints does use various big game bullets and he has the exact same Winlite I have and that works very well for him (he is on his third barrel). He caries trajectory tables that he changes all the time. Mine is the same trajectory and drift table I taped to my stock back in the 1980s after shooting my 300 wby out to 600 yards after developing my load.
To be certain, he feels comfortable taking shots at ranges that I do not, but I am fine giving up a hundred yards or so even though we are roughly equivalent in shooting ability.
My purpose in posting the link to Sierra's site is to point out that although the accuracy may be something that you know you can depend on out to.... way out there, that bullet performance may be something that you need to consider and be aware of.
To the best of my knowledge, some who have done extensive testing have concluded that within a window of ~2,000 to ~2,700 fps upon impact that performance is acceptable and reliable. So what does that say about them being acceptable at 308 velocities as performing like a Genva Convention bullet as a "sniper round?" Hell, I don't know.
All I intended in posting that admonition that Sierra published is that the SMK has limitations that you should take the opportunity to consider, and use that bullet within the limitations to what YOU are comfortable with, should you decide to proceed.
Post by: JDHasty on March 18, 2016, 09:04:28 PM
Jd......you gotta check out my thread....the steel is bad.....Cmon man its Friday night, I've had a few pops....I need your input!
Absolutely loved it and forwarded it on and got a lot of response back.
Post by: JDHasty on March 18, 2016, 09:17:44 PM