Post by: doubletall on March 31, 2016, 09:03:11 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 31, 2016, 09:05:49 AM
Post by: Colin on March 31, 2016, 09:06:44 AM
If it's not rude to ask...what is "purebred price" in this circumstance?
Same ? from me.
Post by: bobcat on March 31, 2016, 09:16:44 AM
I also wonder if this is simply a "mixed litter" of yellow and black Lab puppies.
Post by: Skillet on March 31, 2016, 09:39:04 AM
Post by: lokidog on March 31, 2016, 09:44:45 AM
Post by: doubletall on March 31, 2016, 09:51:13 AM
A "mixed litter?" Are you really saying these puppies are a Labrador Retriever / Golden Retriever mix? It seems odd to me that a professional breeder would do that. Was it intentional?
I also wonder if this is simply a "mixed litter" of yellow and black Lab puppies.
A little more information;
This was an intentional breeding between a papered lab and a papered Golden. As I understand it the goal was to produce service dogs.
They are asking $800. I don't doubt that the pups would make great pets but I have a problem paying that kind of money for a "designer breed"
Post by: Jonathan_S on March 31, 2016, 09:53:00 AM
Post by: Dead-Eye on March 31, 2016, 10:08:30 AM
I've had bad dogs with papers and good dogs with no papers. Our mix was the best dog I ever had. Eight hundred bucks seems a little steep, but you do know where he/she is coming from, and that's the whole point of papers, usually.
Tough call for sure.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on March 31, 2016, 10:28:57 AM
Post by: Dhoey07 on March 31, 2016, 10:38:06 AM
Post by: Colin on March 31, 2016, 10:55:39 AM
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Post by: doubletall on March 31, 2016, 12:34:59 PM
Sounds like a rip off to me. I have a really had time supporting designer breedings. Nothing against the good old mutt, I have two of those at home already but an intentional cross of two retrievers is trying to do what? What qualities are being bettered here? Do you mind telling us who the breeder is?
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
I agree with you 100% but I'd rather not name the breeder. I was more looking for opinions to back me up in talking my wife out of it which has already been accomplished.
Post by: Becky on March 31, 2016, 01:00:52 PM
A crossbreed dog would be two purebred papered dogs having a litter, so the pups are exactly 50/50 mix ("F1", first generation), it's very different when you then breed a mix to a mix and in that case you lose the health advantage.
If you have one lineage of a breed that's prone to a certain disorder/disease (maybe hip dysplasia) and you breed it with another breed who has never had a history of that disorder then you essentially can almost bet your puppy will be healthy. They won't both have the recessive gene their lineage carries. Takes research though, but its a huge advantage if you are wanting a healthy pet, and not a show dog (and also, spay or neuter!).. but on the flip side I'd never buy a crossbreedXcrossbreed puppy, they potentially carry ALL recessive genes from both lineage and could be a disaster so always buy an F1.
Post by: WARHORSE on March 31, 2016, 01:06:22 PM
Post by: jackson7 on March 31, 2016, 01:29:17 PM
maybe a rehoming fee. will be interesting to see if they sell.
Post by: runamuk on March 31, 2016, 01:51:04 PM
A "mixed litter?" Are you really saying these puppies are a Labrador Retriever / Golden Retriever mix? It seems odd to me that a professional breeder would do that. Was it intentional?
I also wonder if this is simply a "mixed litter" of yellow and black Lab puppies.
A little more information;
This was an intentional breeding between a papered lab and a papered Golden. As I understand it the goal was to produce service dogs.
They are asking $800. I don't doubt that the pups would make great pets but I have a problem paying that kind of money for a "designer breed"
My dad got one of those for free she is a nut and also 10 now and still a nut. :chuckle: that said I am a purebred dog proponent the only thing you mentioned that would make me consider paying was if the dogs truly have had all their health clearances. Otherwise these are just mutts and all the fancy designer names and stories of service dog potential etc is sales pitch same as used in car lots.
Post by: lokidog on March 31, 2016, 02:15:14 PM
Having said that, if both lines have good hunting/companion backgrounds, and their health checks are good, $800 might not be a bad price as purebred goldens are mostly going upwards of $1200, not sure what lab prices are, but would guess comparable.
Post by: wildweeds on April 01, 2016, 05:10:16 PM
Post by: Firedogg on April 01, 2016, 05:33:56 PM
If lineage on both sides is completely healthy, then half what they are asking would be the "premium" price, but seems more like a $2-250 investment in one with the right temperment would be appropriate.
Post by: fieldandstream on June 01, 2016, 04:21:23 PM
1) Lara S. Batt, Marjolyn S. Batt, John A. Baguley, Paul D. McGreevy, Factors associated with success in guide dog training, Journal of Veterinary Behavior (2008) 3, 143-151
2) Selecting Quality Service Dogs
Part 1: Morphological and Health Considerations
Lindsay Parenti, MA, BCBA, Matthew Wilson, PhD, Anne M. Foreman, PhD, Oliver Wirth, PhD, and B. Jean Meade, DVM, MD, MPH, PhD
3) Genetics, behavior, and puppy temperament testing
Golden x Lab crosses were most likely to graduate after the normal training period, but success rates of Goldens and German Shepherds were higher if they were passed back and thus had a longer training period. Dogs that were passed back for behavioral reasons were ...
4) You can learn more about the genetics of dogs in ICB's online courses. Visit our Facebook Groups ICB Institute of Canine Biology ...the latest canine news and research ICB Breeding for the Future ...the science of animal breeding
Post by: trophyhunt on June 01, 2016, 04:28:26 PM
Personally, I don't think I would pay the same (I also wouldn't charge the same if it was my litter) for a "mix" as I would for a pure breed from good stock and proven hunting/trial lines. You would likely get a great dog, but.... :twocents::yeah: :yeah: If it is a reputable breeder they wouldn't charge the same. You could very well end up with a great dog, but for them to charge the same price as a papered full bred pup, just not right.
Post by: jackelope on June 01, 2016, 04:34:38 PM
:dunno:
Post by: Curly on June 01, 2016, 05:29:28 PM
Post by: lokidog on June 01, 2016, 07:24:35 PM
The price of dogs is a little crazy to me, especially mixed breeds. Heck, we paid $300+ to adopt a dog. I don't understand why someone would cross goldens and labs to make a better service dog. That doesn't make sense to me. I'm sure a lab/golden cross would be a great dog, but I'm also sure it's not a dog that should be sold for $800 regardless of how certified or OFA clear they are.
:dunno:
I think Fieldandstream addressed this cross issue quite well... "The Golden Retriever x Labrador Retriever crosses have been studied by the service industry for some time, studies show this cross has a higher graduation rate from service training as guide dogs than either the purebred lab or purebred golden and german shepherds the first time through (rather that going back through training again)."
Great post, fieldandstream.....and footnotes to back up facts. :tup:
:yeah: And, welcome to the site!
Post by: follow maggie on June 02, 2016, 05:59:48 PM
Post by: TVHunts on June 02, 2016, 07:43:32 PM
Yes, good proven dog prices are over the top. My dog was 1200 nearly 6 years ago. She is a purebread yellow lab with red fox color. Knowing the dog I have now I would easily pay double the price for her. She is my hunting partner, awesome family dog and I wouldn't trade her for anything. I can't put a price on how she greets me every day of her life and helps fulfill our life in general.
Is 800 too much? Who knows? If it turns out to be a stellar hunting partner and family dog then no, to me it isn't too much.
Golden Lab crosses are out there. I know people who have done it intentionally and then did it again as their dog was up in age. They have been great hunting and family dogs. I personally don't see a thing wrong with it or with buying one. They are both awesome breeds. :twocents
Post by: Happy Gilmore on June 03, 2016, 08:03:12 AM
The years and history of good hips is thrown out the window when you cross breed. The good hips for years in one dog can be erased in one genetic sequencing by mix breeding. Pure bred breeding allows "some" greater control of things such as bad hips.
Do not be convinced by the snake oil salesman that his mix breeding is better than the dogs which took a nearly 200 years to get to the point they are at in good qualities.
Typically, when you cross breed you end up doubling up the bad qualities. If this breeding was intentional you are dealing with some folks who are delusional and if you believe what they tell you about it, you need to talk to some experienced folks you trust and do more research on the subject.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/01/0115_040115_tvdesignerdogs_2.html
Giving a good accident bred pup a home, knowing both parents are retrievers? that could be a good fit. Knowingly paying someone for their science experiment in their basement? that's crazy.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on June 03, 2016, 08:04:33 AM
I did a research paper on crossbreed dogs in college, not that it really means anything but in my little opinion some crossbreed dogs are very much worth it, if you know what you're getting into. I'm not really talking about the "designer dogs" per se, even though they do fall into the same category. The biggest appeal for crossbreed dogs is the health of the dog.
A crossbreed dog would be two purebred papered dogs having a litter, so the pups are exactly 50/50 mix ("F1", first generation), it's very different when you then breed a mix to a mix and in that case you lose the health advantage.
If you have one lineage of a breed that's prone to a certain disorder/disease (maybe hip dysplasia) and you breed it with another breed who has never had a history of that disorder then you essentially can almost bet your puppy will be healthy. They won't both have the recessive gene their lineage carries. Takes research though, but its a huge advantage if you are wanting a healthy pet, and not a show dog (and also, spay or neuter!).. but on the flip side I'd never buy a crossbreedXcrossbreed puppy, they potentially carry ALL recessive genes from both lineage and could be a disaster so always buy an F1.
what school taught you genetics work like this? To start, there is no genetic marker for it. It can pop up in any breeding no matter how many times it has had OFA's done. There is no recessive gene which we have identified. Our current most accurate way of identifying it is X-Rays. not a real new breakthrough technology. Some disorders such as PRA, EIC and DM have identifiable genetic markers. With these markers present we can identify normal, carriers or affected in some cases. However, because a dog may be affected, it does not mean that these disorders will present an episode. So, as Smossys Grl is saying is more relevant to a situation where you may be breeding a EIC clear dog to an affected dog. This dog will produce only carriers of EIC. If you breed two carriers you can get carriers however, statistically you will get affected dogs.
Hip dysplasia doesn't work that way. Sorry. Some white papers cite that one of the few things pure bred dogs have brought to the world was a lower instance of disorders such as bad hips because of careful and thoughtful breeding. Mixed breed mutts are said to have a 67% higher chance of having hip dysplasia than other according to an actual medical study done by vets.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on June 03, 2016, 08:26:25 AM
Lets not split hairs.
You see some specific service dogs who get selected from the pounds but, lets get realistic. When an agency is about to spend $10-20,000 on training they will (like anyone in a competitive dog venue like field trials) stack the deck in their favor to be successful any way possible.
They will buy pure bred dogs from kennels with a track record and history of producing successful dogs. You don't see any(ok, go find one on facebook) police departments with lab golden mixes in schutzhund training. They aint gonna pass it. So, they often go to Germany and buy really expensive dogs to put in really expensive training. If this kennel intentionally mixed a golden and a lab it would be obvious to me they have not been successful in anything and now they are trying to fool people into paying for an accidental breeding.
Run like hell from it.
Post by: AspenBud on June 08, 2016, 08:20:09 AM
A "mixed litter?" Are you really saying these puppies are a Labrador Retriever / Golden Retriever mix? It seems odd to me that a professional breeder would do that. Was it intentional?
I also wonder if this is simply a "mixed litter" of yellow and black Lab puppies.
A little more information;
This was an intentional breeding between a papered lab and a papered Golden. As I understand it the goal was to produce service dogs.
They are asking $800. I don't doubt that the pups would make great pets but I have a problem paying that kind of money for a "designer breed"
$800 dollars for a mixed breed pup is outrageous. You can buy very well bred, pure bred, bird dogs for that price or less.
Post by: AspenBud on June 08, 2016, 08:22:25 AM
I did a research paper on crossbreed dogs in college, not that it really means anything but in my little opinion some crossbreed dogs are very much worth it, if you know what you're getting into. I'm not really talking about the "designer dogs" per se, even though they do fall into the same category. The biggest appeal for crossbreed dogs is the health of the dog.
A crossbreed dog would be two purebred papered dogs having a litter, so the pups are exactly 50/50 mix ("F1", first generation), it's very different when you then breed a mix to a mix and in that case you lose the health advantage.
If you have one lineage of a breed that's prone to a certain disorder/disease (maybe hip dysplasia) and you breed it with another breed who has never had a history of that disorder then you essentially can almost bet your puppy will be healthy. They won't both have the recessive gene their lineage carries. Takes research though, but its a huge advantage if you are wanting a healthy pet, and not a show dog (and also, spay or neuter!).. but on the flip side I'd never buy a crossbreedXcrossbreed puppy, they potentially carry ALL recessive genes from both lineage and could be a disaster so always buy an F1.
what school taught you genetics work like this? To start, there is no genetic marker for it. It can pop up in any breeding no matter how many times it has had OFA's done. There is no recessive gene which we have identified. Our current most accurate way of identifying it is X-Rays. not a real new breakthrough technology. Some disorders such as PRA, EIC and DM have identifiable genetic markers. With these markers present we can identify normal, carriers or affected in some cases. However, because a dog may be affected, it does not mean that these disorders will present an episode. So, as Smossys Grl is saying is more relevant to a situation where you may be breeding a EIC clear dog to an affected dog. This dog will produce only carriers of EIC. If you breed two carriers you can get carriers however, statistically you will get affected dogs.
Hip dysplasia doesn't work that way. Sorry. Some white papers cite that one of the few things pure bred dogs have brought to the world was a lower instance of disorders such as bad hips because of careful and thoughtful breeding. Mixed breed mutts are said to have a 67% higher chance of having hip dysplasia than other according to an actual medical study done by vets.
Yup.
The idea is to breed best to best, not best to subpar.
Post by: Heavyfoot on June 08, 2016, 11:22:25 PM
Post by: doubletall on June 10, 2016, 10:27:43 AM
Post by: Curly on June 10, 2016, 12:56:35 PM
Post by: CoryTDF on June 10, 2016, 01:16:04 PM
As a disabled individual and scientist who has depended on service dogs due to blindness and other disabilities, I feel the desire to reply to this post. I think I might know which ad the original writer of the post is talking about, although I am not 100% sure... if I am right, the sire was a golden retriever with clearances for eyes, heart, hips (OFA done twice excellent and good), elbows, and DNA... with 5 generations of good to excellent hips along with generations of working dogs in the pedigree and the sire was trained himself. The dam had OFA hips good and Penn Hip'd 70%, elbows normal, eyes and heart normal, EIC and CNM clear on both alleles and had been in training as well with a long healthy pedigree. Having known plenty of dogs that have been donated or purchased for service work in the past by others that were not healthy, or not of good temperament, I would say this litter was an outstanding option for a service dog or family dog based on history. The litter was intentional. The breeder offered training gift certificates to a professional trainer with each pup, and had all shots, microchip, worming, dewclaws, check ups done by a veterinarian prior to the puppies going home, gave a puppy care kit, book, training DVD and more to each new owner. One pup was donated at no charge to service work as the breeder does with each litter. Based on the history of pricing of a good dog, they were well below the average cost for a dog like that at $800. Finding a healthy, smart, trainable dog to pass a real service training program is difficult. Service dogs include dogs for mobility, vision, hearing, developmental disabilities, diabetic alert, seizure alert, and psychiatric support. They are trained to “provide work or perform tasks related to an individual’s disability.” When accompanied by a service dog, the individual with a disability is afforded some public access protections (Parenti, Foreman, Meade, & Wirth, 2013). Current demand for service dogs outweighs supply (M. Winkle, Crowe, & Hendrix, 2012), and average wait times of up to three years for a well-trained dog are not uncommon. Service dogs are generally trained for a minimum of 18 months, and training can cost anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000 (Allen & Blascovich, 1996). According to some estimates, only 50% of dogs entering training progress to the level of service dog (Batt, Batt, Baguley, & McGreevy, 2008), meaning half or more fail to pass the program, increasing the cost of training and limiting the number of available dogs. Hereditary diseases and behavioral problems are the most common reasons for a dog to be released from a training program (Wahl, Herbst, Clark, Tsai, & Murphy, 2008). The Golden Retriever x Labrador Retriever crosses have been studied by the service industry for some time, studies show this cross has a higher graduation rate from service training as guide dogs than either the purebred lab or purebred golden and german shepherds the first time through (rather that going back through training again). I love my old 12 year old service dog now in retirement and her replacement 13 month old at the tail end of training as my up and coming service dog. I thank God every day for a terrific, smart, gentle, healthy friend that patiently helps me everyday. Hope that helps.
1) Lara S. Batt, Marjolyn S. Batt, John A. Baguley, Paul D. McGreevy, Factors associated with success in guide dog training, Journal of Veterinary Behavior (2008) 3, 143-151
2) Selecting Quality Service Dogs
Part 1: Morphological and Health Considerations
Lindsay Parenti, MA, BCBA, Matthew Wilson, PhD, Anne M. Foreman, PhD, Oliver Wirth, PhD, and B. Jean Meade, DVM, MD, MPH, PhD
3) Genetics, behavior, and puppy temperament testing
Golden x Lab crosses were most likely to graduate after the normal training period, but success rates of Goldens and German Shepherds were higher if they were passed back and thus had a longer training period. Dogs that were passed back for behavioral reasons were ...
4) You can learn more about the genetics of dogs in ICB's online courses. Visit our Facebook Groups ICB Institute of Canine Biology ...the latest canine news and research ICB Breeding for the Future ...the science of animal breeding
Outstanding post by somebody who obviously has a "dog in the fight" so to speak. Sounds like a well thought out breeding with all the proper tests and clearances. I am not a huge cross-bred advocate but in this case it seems like a solid choice and is well researched.
Post by: Becky on June 10, 2016, 03:51:36 PM
I did a research paper on crossbreed dogs in college, not that it really means anything but in my little opinion some crossbreed dogs are very much worth it, if you know what you're getting into. I'm not really talking about the "designer dogs" per se, even though they do fall into the same category. The biggest appeal for crossbreed dogs is the health of the dog.
A crossbreed dog would be two purebred papered dogs having a litter, so the pups are exactly 50/50 mix ("F1", first generation), it's very different when you then breed a mix to a mix and in that case you lose the health advantage.
If you have one lineage of a breed that's prone to a certain disorder/disease (maybe hip dysplasia) and you breed it with another breed who has never had a history of that disorder then you essentially can almost bet your puppy will be healthy. They won't both have the recessive gene their lineage carries. Takes research though, but its a huge advantage if you are wanting a healthy pet, and not a show dog (and also, spay or neuter!).. but on the flip side I'd never buy a crossbreedXcrossbreed puppy, they potentially carry ALL recessive genes from both lineage and could be a disaster so always buy an F1.
what school taught you genetics work like this? To start, there is no genetic marker for it. It can pop up in any breeding no matter how many times it has had OFA's done. There is no recessive gene which we have identified. Our current most accurate way of identifying it is X-Rays. not a real new breakthrough technology. Some disorders such as PRA, EIC and DM have identifiable genetic markers. With these markers present we can identify normal, carriers or affected in some cases. However, because a dog may be affected, it does not mean that these disorders will present an episode. So, as Smossys Grl is saying is more relevant to a situation where you may be breeding a EIC clear dog to an affected dog. This dog will produce only carriers of EIC. If you breed two carriers you can get carriers however, statistically you will get affected dogs.
Feisty. "I did a research paper" I hope people would understand what that means, and it was a real generic post I wrote so not sure what you mean by "what school taught you genetics work like this?".
To pass on a recessive genetic disorder both parents must be carriers, so the idea was (at the time I did the research, 10 years ago before every dog breed is being crossbred with some dumb hyphenated name like shih-poo and pug-a-pei) that two dissimilar purebred dogs with no dominant disorder would have a minimized likelihood that both dogs have the same recessive genes in order to pass the disorder onto their puppies. I bolded where I wrote that, please tell me how that's not how genetic disorders work? I also said you should NEVER crossbreed the mixed dogs, because yes they are potentially recessive gene carriers who will not develop the disease themselves in their happy pet life, but could pass on the gene to their puppies. Takes two to tango, genes DO work like that.
If you are specifically talking about hip dysplasia ONLY, you're right it's not that easy and it was just used as an example. However, "there is no genetic marker for it" is incorrect, they just all haven't been found yet, doesn't meant there is none, "It can pop up in any breeding no matter how many times it has had OFA's done" that's correct. As an inherited disease, both parents must be carriers to pass onto their puppies. Even if both pass clearances, yet both are carriers of the recessive genes that makeup CHD, then there's a 25% chance the puppies will develop it.
So you sort of proved my point though? Crossbred dogs were seen as a way to minimize that by breeding a purebred (whose possibly a carrier of CHD, you said yourself they can't genetically test for it) to another purebred that's extremely low on the index of CHD then the offspring would statistically not develop it. This example could be used for any inherited disease that affects one lineage of purebred dogs but really rare in another.. why I said "Takes research though". Again I stress do NOT breed these crossbred pups with anything and they should be spayed/neutered.
Health clearances and testing is more commonplace now for reputable breeders than a decade ago and that's great, pretty soon complete genetic testing will be available for all inhereted diseases.
Hip dysplasia doesn't work that way. Sorry. Some white papers cite that one of the few things pure bred dogs have brought to the world was a lower instance of disorders such as bad hips because of careful and thoughtful breeding. Mixed breed mutts are said to have a 67% higher chance of having hip dysplasia than other according to an actual medical study done by vets.
I like data too. http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/health-of-purebred-vs-mixed-breed-dogs-the-data
Quote
This study found that purebred dogs have a significantly greater risk of developing many of the hereditary disorders examined in this study. No, mixed breed dogs are not ALWAYS healthier than purebreds; and also, purebreds are not "as healthy" as mixed breed dogs. The results of this study will surprise nobody who understands the basics of Mendelian inheritance. Breeding related animals increases the expression of genetic disorders caused by recessive mutations, and it also increases the probability of producing offspring that will inherit the assortment of genes responsible for a polygenic disorder.
That was similar to the types of data I found and reasoning behind crossbreeds. All that aside, I'm not advocating for them. I was involved with my own little show dogs and was taught the importance of betterment of the breed by selective breeding and genetic testing. Doesn't mean one can't research and expand understanding. The OP's question was is it worth it, yea that can be to some people, but I didn't want to answer that without a reason why.
Post by: doubletall on June 10, 2016, 06:42:46 PM
Congrats on the new family member. We expect some pics one of these days. :)
Our Chocolate "Lue" and the new addition "Thule"
Photo credit to https://squareup.com/store/layla-and-me-photography
Post by: Becky on June 10, 2016, 08:10:25 PM
Congrats on the new family member. We expect some pics one of these days. :)
Our Chocolate "Lue" and the new addition "Thule"
Photo credit to https://squareup.com/store/layla-and-me-photography
I love action photos, that's awesome. Glad the new addition likes water as well :)
Post by: Curly on June 10, 2016, 08:36:34 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on June 11, 2016, 10:46:51 PM
I did a research paper on crossbreed dogs in college, not that it really means anything but in my little opinion some crossbreed dogs are very much worth it, if you know what you're getting into. I'm not really talking about the "designer dogs" per se, even though they do fall into the same category. The biggest appeal for crossbreed dogs is the health of the dog.
A crossbreed dog would be two purebred papered dogs having a litter, so the pups are exactly 50/50 mix ("F1", first generation), it's very different when you then breed a mix to a mix and in that case you lose the health advantage.
If you have one lineage of a breed that's prone to a certain disorder/disease (maybe hip dysplasia) and you breed it with another breed who has never had a history of that disorder then you essentially can almost bet your puppy will be healthy. They won't both have the recessive gene their lineage carries. Takes research though, but its a huge advantage if you are wanting a healthy pet, and not a show dog (and also, spay or neuter!).. but on the flip side I'd never buy a crossbreedXcrossbreed puppy, they potentially carry ALL recessive genes from both lineage and could be a disaster so always buy an F1.
what school taught you genetics work like this? To start, there is no genetic marker for it. It can pop up in any breeding no matter how many times it has had OFA's done. There is no recessive gene which we have identified. Our current most accurate way of identifying it is X-Rays. not a real new breakthrough technology. Some disorders such as PRA, EIC and DM have identifiable genetic markers. With these markers present we can identify normal, carriers or affected in some cases. However, because a dog may be affected, it does not mean that these disorders will present an episode. So, as Smossys Grl is saying is more relevant to a situation where you may be breeding a EIC clear dog to an affected dog. This dog will produce only carriers of EIC. If you breed two carriers you can get carriers however, statistically you will get affected dogs.
Feisty. "I did a research paper" I hope people would understand what that means, and it was a real generic post I wrote so not sure what you mean by "what school taught you genetics work like this?".
To pass on a recessive genetic disorder both parents must be carriers, so the idea was (at the time I did the research, 10 years ago before every dog breed is being crossbred with some dumb hyphenated name like shih-poo and pug-a-pei) that two dissimilar purebred dogs with no dominant disorder would have a minimized likelihood that both dogs have the same recessive genes in order to pass the disorder onto their puppies. I bolded where I wrote that, please tell me how that's not how genetic disorders work? I also said you should NEVER crossbreed the mixed dogs, because yes they are potentially recessive gene carriers who will not develop the disease themselves in their happy pet life, but could pass on the gene to their puppies. Takes two to tango, genes DO work like that.
If you are specifically talking about hip dysplasia ONLY, you're right it's not that easy and it was just used as an example. However, "there is no genetic marker for it" is incorrect, they just all haven't been found yet, doesn't meant there is none, "It can pop up in any breeding no matter how many times it has had OFA's done" that's correct. As an inherited disease, both parents must be carriers to pass onto their puppies. Even if both pass clearances, yet both are carriers of the recessive genes that makeup CHD, then there's a 25% chance the puppies will develop it.
So you sort of proved my point though? Crossbred dogs were seen as a way to minimize that by breeding a purebred (whose possibly a carrier of CHD, you said yourself they can't genetically test for it) to another purebred that's extremely low on the index of CHD then the offspring would statistically not develop it. This example could be used for any inherited disease that affects one lineage of purebred dogs but really rare in another.. why I said "Takes research though". Again I stress do NOT breed these crossbred pups with anything and they should be spayed/neutered.
Health clearances and testing is more commonplace now for reputable breeders than a decade ago and that's great, pretty soon complete genetic testing will be available for all inhereted diseases.Hip dysplasia doesn't work that way. Sorry. Some white papers cite that one of the few things pure bred dogs have brought to the world was a lower instance of disorders such as bad hips because of careful and thoughtful breeding. Mixed breed mutts are said to have a 67% higher chance of having hip dysplasia than other according to an actual medical study done by vets.
I like data too. http://www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/blog/health-of-purebred-vs-mixed-breed-dogs-the-dataQuoteThis study found that purebred dogs have a significantly greater risk of developing many of the hereditary disorders examined in this study. No, mixed breed dogs are not ALWAYS healthier than purebreds; and also, purebreds are not "as healthy" as mixed breed dogs. The results of this study will surprise nobody who understands the basics of Mendelian inheritance. Breeding related animals increases the expression of genetic disorders caused by recessive mutations, and it also increases the probability of producing offspring that will inherit the assortment of genes responsible for a polygenic disorder.
That was similar to the types of data I found and reasoning behind crossbreeds. All that aside, I'm not advocating for them. I was involved with my own little show dogs and was taught the importance of betterment of the breed by selective breeding and genetic testing. Doesn't mean one can't research and expand understanding. The OP's question was is it worth it, yea that can be to some people, but I didn't want to answer that without a reason why.
Seemed like dysplasia was the topic and it is not a "recessive" marker nor will it be with research. It's about like saying you can find a marker for what size a kids feet will be at age 10
Post by: AspenBud on June 12, 2016, 10:23:12 AM
Someone breeding two different breeds together and selling the pups for $800 is ripping you off. Mainly because you can get far more thoughtfully bred pups for as much or less.
Post by: TVHunts on June 14, 2016, 06:57:17 PM
As a disabled individual and scientist who has depended on service dogs due to blindness and other disabilities, I feel the desire to reply to this post. I think I might know which ad the original writer of the post is talking about, although I am not 100% sure... if I am right, the sire was a golden retriever with clearances for eyes, heart, hips (OFA done twice excellent and good), elbows, and DNA... with 5 generations of good to excellent hips along with generations of working dogs in the pedigree and the sire was trained himself. The dam had OFA hips good and Penn Hip'd 70%, elbows normal, eyes and heart normal, EIC and CNM clear on both alleles and had been in training as well with a long healthy pedigree. Having known plenty of dogs that have been donated or purchased for service work in the past by others that were not healthy, or not of good temperament, I would say this litter was an outstanding option for a service dog or family dog based on history. The litter was intentional. The breeder offered training gift certificates to a professional trainer with each pup, and had all shots, microchip, worming, dewclaws, check ups done by a veterinarian prior to the puppies going home, gave a puppy care kit, book, training DVD and more to each new owner. One pup was donated at no charge to service work as the breeder does with each litter. Based on the history of pricing of a good dog, they were well below the average cost for a dog like that at $800. Finding a healthy, smart, trainable dog to pass a real service training program is difficult. Service dogs include dogs for mobility, vision, hearing, developmental disabilities, diabetic alert, seizure alert, and psychiatric support. They are trained to “provide work or perform tasks related to an individual’s disability.” When accompanied by a service dog, the individual with a disability is afforded some public access protections (Parenti, Foreman, Meade, & Wirth, 2013). Current demand for service dogs outweighs supply (M. Winkle, Crowe, & Hendrix, 2012), and average wait times of up to three years for a well-trained dog are not uncommon. Service dogs are generally trained for a minimum of 18 months, and training can cost anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000 (Allen & Blascovich, 1996). According to some estimates, only 50% of dogs entering training progress to the level of service dog (Batt, Batt, Baguley, & McGreevy, 2008), meaning half or more fail to pass the program, increasing the cost of training and limiting the number of available dogs. Hereditary diseases and behavioral problems are the most common reasons for a dog to be released from a training program (Wahl, Herbst, Clark, Tsai, & Murphy, 2008). The Golden Retriever x Labrador Retriever crosses have been studied by the service industry for some time, studies show this cross has a higher graduation rate from service training as guide dogs than either the purebred lab or purebred golden and german shepherds the first time through (rather that going back through training again). I love my old 12 year old service dog now in retirement and her replacement 13 month old at the tail end of training as my up and coming service dog. I thank God every day for a terrific, smart, gentle, healthy friend that patiently helps me everyday. Hope that helps.
1) Lara S. Batt, Marjolyn S. Batt, John A. Baguley, Paul D. McGreevy, Factors associated with success in guide dog training, Journal of Veterinary Behavior (2008) 3, 143-151
2) Selecting Quality Service Dogs
Part 1: Morphological and Health Considerations
Lindsay Parenti, MA, BCBA, Matthew Wilson, PhD, Anne M. Foreman, PhD, Oliver Wirth, PhD, and B. Jean Meade, DVM, MD, MPH, PhD
3) Genetics, behavior, and puppy temperament testing
Golden x Lab crosses were most likely to graduate after the normal training period, but success rates of Goldens and German Shepherds were higher if they were passed back and thus had a longer training period. Dogs that were passed back for behavioral reasons were ...
4) You can learn more about the genetics of dogs in ICB's online courses. Visit our Facebook Groups ICB Institute of Canine Biology ...the latest canine news and research ICB Breeding for the Future ...the science of animal breeding
Outstanding post by somebody who obviously has a "dog in the fight" so to speak. Sounds like a well thought out breeding with all the proper tests and clearances. I am not a huge cross-bred advocate but in this case it seems like a solid choice and is well researched.
I agree. Keep in mind we were told the scientist isn't a scientist he's simply a "dumb dumb" in another post. Heck of a way to greet someone to the forum on their first post.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on June 17, 2016, 09:17:57 PM
Post by: CoryTDF on June 23, 2016, 11:41:08 AM
Well, writing a long post about the value of a junk breeding on the first post would make one suspect there is an interest in promoting it. And folks should know that what was presented isn't agreed upon by any breeder who know how to tell a dime from a penny
I just want to add that I agree with you %100. I was just saying that the two dogs seem to be clear in their respective breeds and so It had been well thought out in that way. Now, I am not a huge fan of cross bred dogs but if you are going to do it this seems the best way. Promoting it however is an entirely different thing all together and not in line with my way of thinking. Though, many of the greatest dog breeds were created in this manner and it had/has to start somewhere. I'll stick to my Labs and let others do what they want.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on June 23, 2016, 02:14:31 PM
Now, having a "whoops" litter of dogs because you had an accident behind the wood shed and selling them for purebred prices is (in my opinion) a crime.
Get them to a good home for someone who wants a hunting dog and a good pal? that is great. Maybe for $200 because that is about the cost per pup to go to the vet and do shots, worming etc.
Post by: bearbaito6 on June 23, 2016, 06:17:25 PM
Post by: bearpaw on June 23, 2016, 06:48:09 PM
A "mixed litter?" Are you really saying these puppies are a Labrador Retriever / Golden Retriever mix? It seems odd to me that a professional breeder would do that. Was it intentional?
I also wonder if this is simply a "mixed litter" of yellow and black Lab puppies.
A little more information;
This was an intentional breeding between a papered lab and a papered Golden. As I understand it the goal was to produce service dogs.
They are asking $800. I don't doubt that the pups would make great pets but I have a problem paying that kind of money for a "designer breed"
A long time ago someone told me that anything is worth what you can sell it for! :dunno:
Post by: 55gsmith on July 08, 2016, 05:45:09 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on July 08, 2016, 10:17:53 AM
I have been looking for this cross for a wile. Could you pm me the breeders info. I'd really like to look into this litter. Thanks!
I'll sell you a pointing mix for $3,500. Well, give me a deposit of $1,000 and ill put you on the waiting lid for one.
Post by: Bluemoon on July 08, 2016, 10:22:46 AM