Post by: jeepster on June 08, 2016, 10:34:21 PM
AK vs AR
we know what they look like. we know the reputations. ever since they were first put against each other on the battlefield back in the 1960s, it has probably been one of the most heated gun debates of all time. two rivals, two very different background storys, coming from two very different parts of the world. one designed by a relatively uneducated tank crew member, the other the Colt labratory, but they both seem to end up in the same parts of the world, usually shooting at each other, with respect from both sides receiving lead down range
the reason why i ask about this is because i am considering trading one in for the other,
a few years back i bought a DPMS Panther A3 Oracle, with intent on taking it to Hawaii as a hog hunting rifle, however, i never shipped it, and up until a week a go, never shot it. Recently my grandfather passed, and as a salute i popped off a few in the back yard (i live way way out of town) and after owning a Saiga .223 (AK style rifle), i was rather disappointed in the feel, how the action felt like a 10/22, needless to say, it left me wanting more. so i started thinking, and this is where this is going
i am considering trading in my AR, it has 6 rounds through it, and i can't hunt with it. sure, its a nice rifle (lower end AR, paid 750 or so, with a red dot), its brand new, minus 6 rounds, but, about all it would do is ride around in the jeep, blast come cans, but frankly if I'm in the back woods, i usually just take the shotgun.
the AK has inherent accuracy flaws, but has been known to shoot half way decently up to 150 yards or more, and is very very similar to the 30-30 ballistically speaking, some come with a folding stock, and with a small magazine, would theoretically make a decent brush gun, that can legally be used on a deer.
i feel the AR would be more of a range rifle, can gun, target shooter, maybe a varmint gun, but i haven't shot varmints with anything more than a 22lr, and doubt i will ever need something else
i thought i would get your guys opinions about using an AK as a brush gun, an off-road trail gun, a camp gun, just a good general reliable woods gun, that can also used for a deer getter. I'm not talking about making that 250 yard shot on a mule deer out in eastern washington, i have a 7mm for that :chuckle: but as a good general purpose backwoods gun??
AK would be 7.62, my AR is 5.56, in case i had to clarify :hello:
thoughts?
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 08, 2016, 10:41:59 PM
Post by: jeepster on June 08, 2016, 11:19:12 PM
does the variety of AR uppers make any decisions for this? you can use 7.62x39 from an AR lower.
I haven't looked into uppers, as the price is probably more than I have.
AK seems like a low budget no frills bogus free thrill ride, ARs seem trendy and the new it and in thing
Post by: Duckslayer89 on June 08, 2016, 11:35:07 PM
does the variety of AR uppers make any decisions for this? you can use 7.62x39 from an AR lower.
yeah, i was considering that too, i mean, i am not in need of a deer rifle by any means, i have a 35rem, 300sav, and 7mm mag, so a 7.62 seems to be a little light weight of a caliber compared to the rest, but the debate is more or less to trade in the Ar, or not to trade in the AR, if i were, the AK is just what i would happen to get. i could always slap a 308 upper on my lower, or something to that extent, i honestly haven't really looked at uppers, but doesn't really matter, as the cash just isn't there. the logic proceeds as such: trade in AR, put $ towards something cool that i will enjoy shooting, or keep it collecting dust. i could always get dual wielding 10/22 charger pistols too, but if i were to trade, the AK just seems to appeal because of its reliability, size, folding stock, and a caliber i could zap a bambi with, say if i were cruising down some logging road, it seems it would be a great grab and go, jeep gun; park the rig, jump out, unfold the stock, pop in a 5 round mag, and off i go. besides, you can't be too careful in the woods these days, and i like the idea of something that can hold 30 or more rounds, because in a survival situation, whether serious, or just getting the rig stuck in the waaaay back country, a 30 round mag, is really 10 SOS calls the way i see it, whether it be 22lr, 556, 308, 762...
but for the smaller west side deer that one would encounter on a logging road or out in the brush? why not?
Check out the Arsenal Sam7sf. I've done a lot of research lately and these seem to be some of the best without going into the custom range of $2500+.
Post by: NW-GSP on June 08, 2016, 11:45:11 PM
Post by: MountainWalk on June 08, 2016, 11:51:55 PM
I think I'd take the AK every time.
Post by: csaaphill on June 09, 2016, 12:49:59 AM
I do like the newer look of the AR compared to what they looked like in the 90's but never hunted with one so...
Since I have at least with a AK or Mac 90 SKS type and worked good I'd go with that then.
Post by: Jellymon on June 09, 2016, 01:15:29 AM
https://nemoarms.com/rifles/
Post by: Bean Counter on June 09, 2016, 02:36:12 AM
Post by: hunter399 on June 09, 2016, 08:05:26 AM
Post by: Special T on June 09, 2016, 08:09:53 AM
Additionally everyone i know who had a 7.62x39 upper on an AR was a jam o matic!
Post by: Duckslayer89 on June 09, 2016, 08:13:29 AM
Post by: CP on June 09, 2016, 08:18:10 AM
Post by: Duckslayer89 on June 09, 2016, 08:32:01 AM
I'd own a Ruger mini 30 over an AK -
I have one it's never jammed or had any issues. You can mount a nice scope on it as well. I posted this pic before on a different thread but OP might be interested in seeing this set up as another possible option. Dad dropped a deer at around 200 yards with this gun
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 09, 2016, 08:46:38 AM
Seems like every AR at the rifle range always has some kind of issue people are trying to figure out. Even my buddy's colt we brought wouldn't feed without jamming every few shots. Just seems like AKs are known for more reliabilityMost of the ARs I've encountered have had some kind of issue at one point in time. Usually takes a little bit out of range time to figure it out. Even other types of modern 'battle rifles' have had something happen. Typically it is a new ammo, sticky lugs, gas port adjustment. But pull out the AK or SKS and they seem to just work all the time--can't remember ever having any issue with either of those (even using drum mags in an AK never an issue).
Post by: Duckslayer89 on June 09, 2016, 08:48:50 AM
Seems like every AR at the rifle range always has some kind of issue people are trying to figure out. Even my buddy's colt we brought wouldn't feed without jamming every few shots. Just seems like AKs are known for more reliabilityMost of the ARs I've encountered have had some kind of issue at one point in time. Usually takes a little bit out of range time to figure it out. Even other types of modern 'battle rifles' have had something happen. Typically it is a new ammo, sticky lugs, gas port adjustment. But pull out the AK or SKS and they seem to just work all the time--can't remember ever having any issue with either of those (even using drum mags in an AK never an issue).
I think the tight tolerances aren't very forgiving when it comes to reliability but it helps with accuracy
Post by: grundy53 on June 09, 2016, 08:50:30 AM
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Post by: Thefisherman83 on June 09, 2016, 10:19:23 AM
Id keep the ar ,and just buy a 300 blackout barrel for 100 dollar.Theres alot more hunting ammo for it than ak ,and it get u to 150 yrd brush gun.all the mags ,everthing inter changes except barrel.I would look into it.
:yeah: .300BLK is equivalent to the 7.62x39. Ammo is a little more expensive, but it puts deer down within reasonable ranges.
Post by: Cougartail on June 09, 2016, 10:44:39 AM
I owned one and sold it.. biggest mistake ever!
Post by: Special T on June 09, 2016, 11:12:31 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 09, 2016, 11:34:22 AM
I would go with an AR.
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
I would, too. The AK is more reliable in harsh environments for a lot of shooting. But for a "woods gun" (not sure what that entails), you don't need reliability for continuous fire. You're only going to need one or two shots at a time. In this case, I'd rather have the increased accuracy over the increased reliability. If you were talking about a home protection or close combat firearm that you wanted to be sure went "bang" every time you pulled the trigger, I'd go with an AK. One of my favorite videos:
Post by: Duckslayer89 on June 09, 2016, 11:38:15 AM
I would go with an AR.
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
I would, too. The AK is more reliable in harsh environments for a lot of shooting. But for a "woods gun" (not sure what that entails), you don't need reliability for continuous fire. You're only going to need one or two shots at a time. In this case, I'd rather have the increased accuracy over the increased reliability. If you were talking about a home protection or close combat firearm that you wanted to be sure went "bang" every time you pulled the trigger, I'd go with an AK. One of my favorite videos:
Every Isis fighters worst nightmare. Bacon flavored bullets flying
Post by: jeepster on June 09, 2016, 11:59:22 AM
Buy an old 30-30 lever gun and never look back. Slim, light weight, reasonably accurate, cheap ammo and plenty of "firepower".
I owned one and sold it.. biggest mistake ever!
Yeah I had a Winchester, I loved it, ended up giving it to my buddy's sister as a gift, didn't really have a choice on that one, got myself in a corner, and she wanted it, Id buy another 30/30 in a heartbeat,
But
Again, I have a .35rem Remington Game Master pump, a lever action Savage 99 in .300 sav, and a Rem 700 in 7mm mag, so the debate isn't about needing a deer rifle, as I have some fine deer rifles as is, it just happens to be that 7.62x39 is a cartridge that is legal to shoot an animal with (vs .223). I'm not wondering "should I get an Ak-47 for deer hunting?", because the answer to that would be an obvious no. Let's just say if I were to go on a deer hunt, id grab my Savage 99 without question...or my .35 or my 7mm or .50cal BP Kentucky, or my 12ga pump, or my 20ga sxs depending on where I was at, and what ammo I had on hand at the time.
So far the best answers are:
AK guys: get a AK
AR guys: swap out uppers
Which leads me back to my origional question, AK vs AR for West side brush work, a general woods gun. Something that would be just as at home riding in the Jeep for off road excursions, home defence, camping, plinking... Just a go-to long gun that can be a do it all, general purpose utility rifle, that could also be capable.of legally taking an animal, say if the moment arose and that's what we had with us, but not used as a dedicated hunting device
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 09, 2016, 12:13:58 PM
I would go with an AR.
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
I would, too. The AK is more reliable in harsh environments for a lot of shooting. But for a "woods gun" (not sure what that entails), you don't need reliability for continuous fire. You're only going to need one or two shots at a time. In this case, I'd rather have the increased accuracy over the increased reliability. If you were talking about a home protection or close combat firearm that you wanted to be sure went "bang" every time you pulled the trigger, I'd go with an AK. One of my favorite videos:
Every Isis fighters worst nightmare. Bacon flavored bullets flying
Yeah, and with a Russian doing the firing. :tup:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 09, 2016, 12:19:11 PM
I'd think AK would probably be best for what you describe. Can you get one reasonably these days? I thought with Obama's sanctions on Russia that supply dried up and prices soared.Buy an old 30-30 lever gun and never look back. Slim, light weight, reasonably accurate, cheap ammo and plenty of "firepower".
I owned one and sold it.. biggest mistake ever!
Yeah I had a Winchester, I loved it, ended up giving it to my buddy's sister as a gift, didn't really have a choice on that one, got myself in a corner, and she wanted it, Id buy another 30/30 in a heartbeat,
But
Again, I have a .35rem Remington Game Master pump, a lever action Savage 99 in .300 sav, and a Rem 700 in 7mm mag, so the debate isn't about needing a deer rifle, as I have some fine deer rifles as is, it just happens to be that 7.62x39 is a cartridge that is legal to shoot an animal with (vs .223). I'm not wondering "should I get an Ak-47 for deer hunting?", because the answer to that would be an obvious no. Let's just say if I were to go on a deer hunt, id grab my Savage 99 without question...or my .35 or my 7mm or .50cal BP Kentucky, or my 12ga pump, or my 20ga sxs depending on where I was at, and what ammo I had on hand at the time.
So far the best answers are:
AK guys: get a AK
AR guys: swap out uppers
Which leads me back to my origional question, AK vs AR for West side brush work, a general woods gun. Something that would be just as at home riding in the Jeep for off road excursions, home defence, camping, plinking... Just a go-to long gun that can be a do it all, general purpose utility rifle, that could also be capable.of legally taking an animal, say if the moment arose and that's what we had with us, but not used as a dedicated hunting device
Post by: AWS on June 09, 2016, 12:44:32 PM
1 oz of NP BB's at 40 yards.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi6.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy222%2FBrowndaug%2Fcoyote%2520with%2520driling_zpsay4xpbfm.jpg&hash=0a9a18a06db31e1e506cce4b2d809afd4d4f6d9b) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/Browndaug/media/coyote%20with%20driling_zpsay4xpbfm.jpg.html)
Rifle , left, right and the rifle at 50 yards.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi6.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy222%2FBrowndaug%2FKIMG0094_zpsng4qrrym.jpg&hash=b0b723f5c40032117de336a8d201c7ee20df4499) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/Browndaug/media/KIMG0094_zpsng4qrrym.jpg.html)
Just the rifle at 200 yards.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi6.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy222%2FBrowndaug%2F65x58rangeday002_zps0d50a89e.jpg&hash=6bdb16f2ca790b56d5ca408331b31a37d21c579a) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/Browndaug/media/65x58rangeday002_zps0d50a89e.jpg.html)
The perfect woods gun.
I have an AR and this is what I carry most of the time or jus a over/under 12ga/22 Highpower
50 yards with 1 1/4 ounce of NP BB's
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi6.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy222%2FBrowndaug%2F003_zpsxsb3jlvb.jpg&hash=9c14b838832d8de0d47c212e6bc930350b5fc20e) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/Browndaug/media/003_zpsxsb3jlvb.jpg.html)
Post by: jeepster on June 09, 2016, 12:45:59 PM
Not sure what's available, I just know it's now or never, November ain't that far away. Come November I might have problems even finding BBS for my bb gun
Post by: Special T on June 09, 2016, 01:16:59 PM
Post by: magnanimous_j on June 09, 2016, 01:19:56 PM
AK's are great, but they are a lot heavier than other options.
Post by: hunter399 on June 09, 2016, 03:17:08 PM
Post by: Thefisherman83 on June 09, 2016, 03:22:06 PM
My vote is the AR all day every day.
Post by: hunter399 on June 09, 2016, 03:28:46 PM
AR's are lighter, more compact, more accurate, less recoil and can be configured any way you want with different stock and handguard options.:yeah:
My vote is the AR all day every day.
Post by: Bofire on June 09, 2016, 03:58:28 PM
Carl
Post by: papisjeep on June 09, 2016, 05:34:06 PM
Ak goes bang every time ak all day
Post by: hunter399 on June 09, 2016, 06:36:31 PM
Post by: hunter399 on June 09, 2016, 06:46:21 PM
There is a reason so many countries use ak47 = reliability & toughnessOne main reason is they dont have the money to get anything better.not sayin its a bad weapon justwhat they afford.surplus ak where dirt cheap 10-20 ago.and they do go bang everytime. Best weapon for the money is why so many countries use it
Ak goes bang every time ak all day
Post by: Buzz2401 on June 09, 2016, 07:10:16 PM
Post by: Thefisherman83 on June 09, 2016, 07:40:48 PM
I'd go Ak the 7.62x39 has more energy and is more reliable. The difference in accuracy under 150 yards is not going to make a difference. Those that say a 300BL is the same as a 7.62x39 must think a 308 win is the same as a 300 win mag. The energy % difference is the same.
The 300blk uses a more efficient bullet. The 7.62x39 has more energy at the muzzle, but out at 100yds they are pretty well even. Plus the ammo selection for the blk is 100x better.
Post by: hunter399 on June 09, 2016, 07:45:52 PM
Post by: hunter399 on June 09, 2016, 07:58:27 PM
Post by: MountainWalk on June 09, 2016, 08:57:37 PM
Post by: Special T on June 09, 2016, 09:33:08 PM
Post by: jeepster on June 12, 2016, 01:38:26 PM
However, I decided I'm going to trade my AR in for an AK pistol with arm stabilizer brace, they had an AK pistol for 600$
For close up brush work, a small gun like that seems to fit my bill pretty well, seems to be my ideal take anywhere jeep gun by first impressions
Post by: CP on June 13, 2016, 08:21:28 AM
Post by: Duckslayer89 on June 13, 2016, 08:28:52 AM
I just noticed that Ruger now offers a 300 Blackout in their mini-series rifles. That would be sweet, especially with a suppressor.
That must be relatively new I haven't heard of that yet. I heard the 7.62 has about the same ballistics? I guess the 300 might have heavier bullets though?
Post by: AWS on June 13, 2016, 09:24:56 AM
Just curious what advantages there are to an AK pistol as a "Woods Gun" over a decent combination or drilling. Now as a "Urban Defense Weapon" I can see it but myself would prefer a full stock or handgun for conceal-ability.
Post by: Yondering on June 13, 2016, 01:25:58 PM
Went to the gun shop yesterday.... Can't find an AK rifle for under 1000 in decent shape......
However, I decided I'm going to trade my AR in for an AK pistol with arm stabilizer brace, they had an AK pistol for 600$
For close up brush work, a small gun like that seems to fit my bill pretty well, seems to be my ideal take anywhere jeep gun by first impressions
So why not just do an AR pistol in that case, instead of the AK pistol? It'll be more accurate and have more capabilities for different uses, for about the same money.
Post by: jeepster on June 13, 2016, 03:51:50 PM
Carrying a semi auto with a Hi cap mag deer hunting is ridiculous. But yet I am considering owning something for an "urban defence gun", truck gun, general purpose firearm to take into the woods year-round. Not a dedicated hunting tool, I have plenty of those. I have plenty of .22s too, so, that takes care of small game.
If I'm going grouse or rabbit hunting, I'll take the sxs 20ga with a .22 pistol
If I'm going deer/ bear/elk hunting, I'll grab the 35 Rem, 7mm mag or 300 Sav and a .22
I'll take a shotgun duck hunting
If I'm going camping, gold panning, fishing, off roading, or any other activity in the woods, I always take something. Just would be nice to BE ABLE to legally shoot a deer IF it presents itself.
More worried.about the creepy 2 legged critters than the furry four legged ones.
And honnestly, AR pistol just look dumb with a buffer tube protruding that far, I've concluded I don't like ARs as much as an AK, and you can drive an AK into the ground and it will work every time.
I believe in the practicality of.ownining calibers that more that kill paper targets and old soup cans (.223)
Post by: Ddouble on June 13, 2016, 03:59:12 PM
Post by: Ddouble on June 13, 2016, 03:59:25 PM
Post by: WoodlandShooter on June 14, 2016, 09:53:46 AM
Post by: Yondering on June 14, 2016, 09:59:03 AM
And honnestly, AR pistol just look dumb with a buffer tube protruding that far,
Is the AK pistol with an arm brace any different there? Hint, you don't hold it like a pistol.
ARs are available in a lot more than just 223. Whatever floats your boat though; the AK pistol will get it done too.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 14, 2016, 10:05:19 AM
Post by: Duckslayer89 on June 14, 2016, 05:19:00 PM
Post by: Yondering on June 17, 2016, 11:41:04 AM
There are ARs that have the recoil spring above the bolt carrier group so you can eliminate the buffer tube. There's another part to the BCG that compresses a spring on a guide rod. That version has a taller profile compared to the standard AR.
Eliminating the buffer tube takes away most of the capability of an AR pistol though. They're pretty much worthless if you try to shoot them like a pistol; using at least a cheek weld on the buffer tube makes a huge difference.
Post by: csaaphill on June 18, 2016, 02:41:33 AM
Went to the gun shop yesterday.... Can't find an AK rifle for under 1000 in decent shape......cool Good luck :tup:
However, I decided I'm going to trade my AR in for an AK pistol with arm stabilizer brace, they had an AK pistol for 600$
For close up brush work, a small gun like that seems to fit my bill pretty well, seems to be my ideal take anywhere jeep gun by first impressions
Do you have a pic yet or have you bought it yet? But when you do Pics :chuckle:
Post by: Buzz2401 on June 19, 2016, 11:17:01 PM
I'd go Ak the 7.62x39 has more energy and is more reliable. The difference in accuracy under 150 yards is not going to make a difference. Those that say a 300BL is the same as a 7.62x39 must think a 308 win is the same as a 300 win mag. The energy % difference is the same.
The 300blk uses a more efficient bullet. The 7.62x39 has more energy at the muzzle, but out at 100yds they are pretty well even. Plus the ammo selection for the blk is 100x better.
NEWS FLASH there both 30 caliber so you can use exact same bullet thus muzzle velocity will translate to downrange velocity. 300 BLK is great for what it was intended for, a sub sonic round. As a hunting caliber it is sub par to most any other 30 caliber offering.
Post by: MountainWalk on June 20, 2016, 08:29:05 AM
Post by: Alchase on June 20, 2016, 10:24:56 AM
For reaching out past 200 yards, not so much.
From Hornady's Ballistic tables
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 20, 2016, 06:07:26 PM
I think the foreign 7.62s use .311 bullets and the domestic 7.62 is the .308 cal. Only a tiny difference and both seem to shoot either version. I've heard, that when reloading for say a Druganov you can use either but the .311s give the best results. For the AK, I've not heard of chasing groups to really get any comparison of .308 vs .311 bullets--noticeably at least.I'd go Ak the 7.62x39 has more energy and is more reliable. The difference in accuracy under 150 yards is not going to make a difference. Those that say a 300BL is the same as a 7.62x39 must think a 308 win is the same as a 300 win mag. The energy % difference is the same.
The 300blk uses a more efficient bullet. The 7.62x39 has more energy at the muzzle, but out at 100yds they are pretty well even. Plus the ammo selection for the blk is 100x better.
NEWS FLASH there both 30 caliber so you can use exact same bullet thus muzzle velocity will translate to downrange velocity. 300 BLK is great for what it was intended for, a sub sonic round. As a hunting caliber it is sub par to most any other 30 caliber offering.