Post by: Stickerbush on August 30, 2016, 05:03:25 AM
The last few times at the range I find that I cant get my .308 to group very well out to 100 yards. I start at 50 and it seems pretty good but out to 100 its all over the place. I put about 20-30 rounds down range Sunday and I fell like that should be enough to get it sighted in. Not really an experienced shooter but pretty sure I wasn't flinching or jerking the thing. And I was shooting of a good rest. With my seasons getting dangerously close not sure what to do at this point
Post by: Timberstalker on August 30, 2016, 05:17:08 AM
Do you know what twist your barrel is?
Post by: CP on August 30, 2016, 05:46:49 AM
Post by: ghosthunter on August 30, 2016, 07:19:58 AM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on August 30, 2016, 07:49:57 AM
What is your group size at 50 yards? Is there any consistency there? Like slightly up/down, or slightly left/right?
Curtis
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 30, 2016, 07:57:20 AM
Did you do any recent maintenance that had the action out of the stock or scope mounts affected?
If it previously grouped with the same load, and no maintenance, I'd check shooter first, action and scope fasteners tight, then look for things like scope failing.
You might also check for copper fouling if you haven't ever/recently given it a good scrub.
Post by: Bob33 on August 30, 2016, 08:06:23 AM
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The last few times at the range I find that I cant get my .308 to group very well out to 100 yards.“The last few times” implies that at one time the rifle shot well. What changed since the gun shot well? What is the group size at 100 yards?
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I start at 50 and it seems pretty good but out to 100 its all over the placeWith a telescopic sight a 100 yard group should be approximately twice the size of a 50 yard group. If not, that suggests the shooter is responsible.
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I put about 20-30 rounds down range SundayHow much time do you allow between groups for the barrel to cool?
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Not really an experienced shooter but pretty sure I wasn't flinching or jerking the thing.Take another person, and go through the “ball and dummy” exercise. Have your friend load the rifle for you, and hand it to you to shoot. One time, he does not load the rifle. If you flinch on an empty chamber it will be obvious.
If the gun did indeed shoot well at one point, the most likely causes are a loose screw in the rings or bases. If that is not the cause, check the barrel bedding. Is it supposed to be free floated? If so run a dollar bill between the stock and barrel to see if they touch at any point. If they do that’s your probable culprit.
If everything checks out and the gun still doesn’t shoot, buy another one. Life’s too short to hunt with poorly shooting equipment.
Post by: jmscon on August 30, 2016, 08:42:25 AM
Post by: 7mmfan on August 30, 2016, 08:57:53 AM
Based on the number of rounds you're saying you shot, heat could very well be an issue. My 7 mag is pretty good to 10 shots and then starts wandering, my 7mm-08 Mountain Rifle is good to 3 or 4 shots and then has rest 5 minutes between shots, the barrel just gets to hot and they start wandering.
Post by: Stickerbush on August 30, 2016, 09:57:22 AM
The mounts are tight but at one time I remember they did get loose. So maybe they are not staying tight? I tried to wait a few minutes between shots, but heat could be possible.
I'm gonna probably take another range day having made sure everything is tight. I'm also going to try to bring some different ammo, while allowing plenty of time between shots. I'll do the flinch test as well, but I did have a buddy shoot it and it still seemed off. Someone at a gun shop told me it has a 1 in 10 twist. I was using 180 grain federals
Post by: Bob33 on August 30, 2016, 10:17:41 AM
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 30, 2016, 10:23:19 AM
Post by: jrebel on August 30, 2016, 10:31:10 AM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on August 30, 2016, 10:36:00 AM
Post by: 7mmfan on August 30, 2016, 11:32:30 AM
What rifle are you shooting and what optics do you have mounted to it. I have one .308 that only like 150 grain bullets and others that love 165/168. Could be the ammo...could be the scope is lose...could be the shooter.....ect. ect. ect. If it were me, I would confirm the scope is secure first. Then I would clean the bore to make sure I didn't have any copper fowling. After that I would try a few different ammo choices. If you still don't have good groups, I would consider trying the rifle with a different scope. Could be the scope has lose internal components. Hope this helps....lots of ways to trouble shoot this problem. All of which are very valid and will give you plenty of trigger time. :tup:
This too, I just remembered when I was young I shot my Grandpas .270 and this happened to me. Very frustrating.
Post by: lokidog on August 30, 2016, 12:01:12 PM
I seem to recall some discussion by another person that 180s did not group well out of his .308 rifle. I personally shoot 165 Nosler Partition and Accurbod handloads with decent groups out of a hunting rifle profiled barrel (Ruger All Weather). Perhaps consider giving 165s a try if you are buying new ammo.
I was also wondering why you are shooting 180's, seems pretty heavy for .308.
You might also try a different scope, I had one that actually had a loose crosshair that would move between shots (although my patterns tended to spread vertically if I recall from 40 years ago). As a young guy, I didn't know any better and sold that "crap" gun to a neighbor. He had no problems with a new scope on it. :rolleyes:
Post by: Bob33 on August 30, 2016, 12:07:26 PM
You might also try a different scope, I had one that actually had a loose crosshair that would move between shots (although my patterns tended to spread vertically if I recall from 40 years ago). As a young guy, I didn't know any better and sold that "crap" gun to a neighbor. He had no problems with a new scope on it. :rolleyes:Memories. I started hunting with a Tasco that had "mobile" reticles. I killed several deer and my first elk with it before I knew they weren't supposed to move.
Post by: coachcw on August 30, 2016, 12:31:41 PM
Post by: JLS on August 30, 2016, 12:38:00 PM
I seem to recall some discussion by another person that 180s did not group well out of his .308 rifle. I personally shoot 165 Nosler Partition and Accurbod handloads with decent groups out of a hunting rifle profiled barrel (Ruger All Weather). Perhaps consider giving 165s a try if you are buying new ammo.
I was also wondering why you are shooting 180's, seems pretty heavy for .308.
You might also try a different scope, I had one that actually had a loose crosshair that would move between shots (although my patterns tended to spread vertically if I recall from 40 years ago). As a young guy, I didn't know any better and sold that "crap" gun to a neighbor. He had no problems with a new scope on it. :rolleyes:
Agreed.
What ammo were you using when it grouped well? I'd try some of that AFTER checking the scope mounting screws and action screws. Use the ball and dummy drill that Bob33 recommended to make sure it's not the nut behind the trigger.
If that doesn't work, clean it good with Wipe Out, and shoot again.
If that doesn't work, try a different scope.
If that doesn't work, sell it.
FWIW, I don't see the merit in using 180 grain bullets in a .308. I'd use 150-165 grain bullets.
Post by: Stickerbush on August 30, 2016, 01:23:20 PM
You haven't said what your group size is, but a reasonable expectation for a modern rifle is that it should consistently shoot three shots groups of 2" or smaller at 100 yards.
I didn't measure but maybe 4 inches?? At 100. At 50 maybe closer to 2 inches
Post by: Stickerbush on August 30, 2016, 01:28:53 PM
Thanks for all the info, I'm getting a game plan
Post by: ctwiggs1 on August 30, 2016, 01:36:37 PM
You haven't said what your group size is, but a reasonable expectation for a modern rifle is that it should consistently shoot three shots groups of 2" or smaller at 100 yards.
I didn't measure but maybe 4 inches?? At 100. At 50 maybe closer to 2 inches
Your grouping issue starts at 50 then. At 50 your holes should be touching.
Look, I don't mean to sound rude because we've all been there. It may be the rifle, but I suspect it's just a typical group that needs to be tightened up. The good news? Practice is a heck of a lot cheaper than new rifles. Check out the 4 fundamentals of marksmanship and really practice them. It takes time but it becomes muscle memory. It will get to the point where you can pick up just about any rifle (and suprisingly I've found also bow) and group consistently well.
If you think it's the gun, have someone you know shoot it. OR go to the range and ask one of the guys there shoot it if you see them doing well. Try a few boxes of different ammo and if you're getting the same results, take Bob's advice and get a new gun.
:twocents:
Curtis
Post by: jackelope on August 30, 2016, 01:48:57 PM
Really need more info to properly diagnose what may or may not even be a problem with the gun.
1-Make sure all the components are tightened down on the rifle. Stock screws, scope base and rings, etc
2-Try some different, quality ammo. I agree with 150-165 grain bullets. You might post some more info about the rifle and maybe some of these guys might be able to suggest the proper bullet for the twist rate and length of the barrel, etc. What bullets are you currently shooting with poor results?
3-Have someone else shoot the rifle. As mentioned, maybe it's you and not the gun.
Post by: Stickerbush on August 30, 2016, 01:53:19 PM
You haven't said what your group size is, but a reasonable expectation for a modern rifle is that it should consistently shoot three shots groups of 2" or smaller at 100 yards.
I didn't measure but maybe 4 inches?? At 100. At 50 maybe closer to 2 inches
Your grouping issue starts at 50 then. At 50 your holes should be touching.
Look, I don't mean to sound rude because we've all been there. It may be the rifle, but I suspect it's just a typical group that needs to be tightened up. The good news? Practice is a heck of a lot cheaper than new rifles. Check out the 4 fundamentals of marksmanship and really practice them. It takes time but it becomes muscle memory. It will get to the point where you can pick up just about any rifle (and suprisingly I've found also bow) and group consistently well.
If you think it's the gun, have someone you know shoot it. OR go to the range and ask one of the guys there shoot it if you see them doing well. Try a few boxes of different ammo and if you're getting the same results, take Bob's advice and get a new gun.
:twocents:
Curtis
Not rude at all, I'm not an experienced rifle shooter by any means so I understand that possibility. Thanks!
Post by: coachcw on August 30, 2016, 02:02:22 PM
Post by: JLS on August 30, 2016, 02:18:10 PM
Ruger m77 Hawkeye, Nikon 3x9x40 buckmaster scope. I think I was shooting federal 180s but might have been 150 on second thought. What is the product that removes fouling, will regular hoppes solvent do it?
Thanks for all the info, I'm getting a game plan
Use Wipe Out and a bore guide.
Post by: Fl0und3rz on August 30, 2016, 03:01:04 PM
it might not like those 180s , my m77s like the throphy bonded fedral premiums 164s
:yeah:
My Ruger All Weather that shoots the 165s Noslers is the M77 platform, also.
Post by: Bofire on August 30, 2016, 04:46:45 PM
Carl
Post by: JakeLand on August 30, 2016, 06:07:09 PM
Post by: wiremonkey on August 30, 2016, 06:14:04 PM
Post by: Stickerbush on August 30, 2016, 07:00:04 PM
Post by: cooltimber on August 30, 2016, 07:12:00 PM
Post by: baker5150 on August 30, 2016, 07:15:51 PM
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Probably just the ammo. I've had bad luck with some and nice tight groups with others. Experiment, it's a good excuse to go shooting.
Post by: JakeLand on August 30, 2016, 08:40:34 PM
Post by: steeleywhopper on August 30, 2016, 11:41:37 PM
Post by: Derek Sutton on September 03, 2016, 01:21:10 AM
Webb stressed using the correct cleaning equipment like; The correct size jag and nylon brush for the caliber you're cleaning. 1 piece ball bearing rod that allows the jag and brush to move in the rifling freely. And a bore guide because it will protect the breach and ensure the rod stays in the middle of the barrel. Avoid using brass brushes because they can dull/ smooth/ damage the rifling edges. Using a gun cradle makes the whole cleaning process so much easier, for $50 the Tipton Range/ Cleaning Box works great for me.
#1 Load a patch with Sweet's and run it down the barrel.
#2 Wait a few minutes then make a couple of passes with the nylon brush and when the brush is 'gummed up' it needs to be cleaned before using it again.
#3 Run new patches down the barrel until they come out clean and dry. (If you want to conserve patches you can flip them over after to use both sides)
#4 Continue that cycle until there isn't any blue on the patches.
#5 When finished run a patch with protecting oil.
I was amazed how much better the ball bearing 1 piece rod and jag works so much better then the break down style rod and slotted patch puller I used growing up. And having 2 rods eliminates having to switch out the jag and brush. For under $200 I bought everything, and more, than needed. Additionally he said Hoppe's 9 and many other solvents won't come close to what Sweet's will do.
Just in case here are links to examples of the items needed:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1903148105/tipton-deluxe-1-piece-cleaning-rod-carbon-fiber (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1903148105/tipton-deluxe-1-piece-cleaning-rod-carbon-fiber)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2093148654/bore-tech-proof-positive-rifle-cleaning-brush-8-x-32-thread-nylon-package-of-3 (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2093148654/bore-tech-proof-positive-rifle-cleaning-brush-8-x-32-thread-nylon-package-of-3)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/815732/tipton-universal-bore-guide (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/815732/tipton-universal-bore-guide)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/643582/sweets-762-bore-cleaning-solvent-200-ml-liquid (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/643582/sweets-762-bore-cleaning-solvent-200-ml-liquid)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/134140/tipton-range-box-with-empty-universal-cleaning-kit (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/134140/tipton-range-box-with-empty-universal-cleaning-kit)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1255118238/pro-shot-cotton-flannel-cleaning-patches (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1255118238/pro-shot-cotton-flannel-cleaning-patches)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/147049/tipton-gun-cleaning-patch-trap (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/147049/tipton-gun-cleaning-patch-trap)
The break in process Webb recommended was to shoot 10 to 20 rounds, cleaning all of the cooper out after each shot, as described above. Continue with shoot & clean, shoot & clean until you see a significant reduction of the cooper residue. Then shoot another 20, cleaning after every 2- 3 shots. After each cleaning cycle be sure the barrel has cooled before shooting another round. The concept is once correctly broke in the cooper won't build up nearly as bad. And after broke in only clean the cooper out of barrel after 20 to 25 rounds. Sounded a little overkill and time consuming but I'm a believer. After breaking in my next 3 rifles properly suddenly I've become a much better shooter...
Many of you guys probably already know this but wanted to relay the information Webb shared because it saved my sanity and $$$ by not buying a new gun. It was surprising how many of my rifle hunting friends have never heard of how to properly break in and clean their guns to ensure all the cooper is removed. Hopefully a few of you will benefit from my experience and long ass post...
Post by: biggfish on September 03, 2016, 02:27:18 AM
Post by: rasbo on September 03, 2016, 04:42:32 AM
If you're looking to stay cheap with better results remington core lokt is the only cheap ammo I've had good results with. Don't have a .308 but the .30-06, .30-30, and .270 send them down range consistently with 1.25" groups at 100 yds. If you're not worried about price I'd buy at least a box of everything you can find and pick a winner to hunt with.I have used the core-lokts all my life,they have never let me down...
Post by: Bill W on September 03, 2016, 06:48:44 AM
I did buy a rifle once that the previous owner said "won't shoot". I looked inside the barrel and couldn't see rifling. After a good cleaning, checking the bedding and making sure the scope, and bases were tight I started again. I kept that rifle for 20 years before it went to it's next owner. The groups I was getting after cleaning and servicing were in the .8 range at 100 yards. But then it's hard to find a bad Remington 788. I did find rifling after that first good cleaning.
One other issue with it was a cheap scope with the "innards" knocked loose. I replaced it with a scope of known quality that I'd used on other rifles.
Post by: JLS on September 03, 2016, 10:25:49 AM
I agree on one piece cleaning rods and jags. Every gun owner should have them. If you're using a three piece rod and slotted tip, you're slowly ruining your rifle.
Get a bore guide and a good rod, along with the appropriate sized jag.
I've used Sweets, Barnes, JB Bore paste. They are all good, but Wipe Out is by far the easiest.
FWIW, I have several rifles that I'll shoot well over a 100 rounds through without cleaning them, and accuracy remains well under MOA.
Post by: PolarBear on September 03, 2016, 12:37:02 PM
Federal blue box are horrible!!! They aren't even close to being a consistent round go with a better quality manufacturer
That's funny. I easily get dime sized groups at 100 yards with that crappy blue box ammo out of my daughter's .243 and my old 30-06. :dunno: :chuckle:
Post by: SemperFidelis97 on September 03, 2016, 07:08:10 PM
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: PolarBear on September 03, 2016, 07:32:34 PM
I was thinking the same thing polarbear. My kids .243s shoot lights out with the blue box ammo.
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
I shot for Federal for 12 years so I am a little biased. :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on September 03, 2016, 08:04:24 PM
Federal blue box are horrible!!! They aren't even close to being a consistent round go with a better quality manufacturer
That's funny. I easily get dime sized groups at 100 yards with that crappy blue box ammo out of my daughter's .243 and my old 30-06. :dunno: :chuckle:
That doesn't mean that ammo will shoot that well out of everything. I'd be shocked if it did, personally.
Post by: Bob33 on September 03, 2016, 08:33:30 PM
Conclusion: only your rifle can tell you which ammunition it prefers or dislikes.
Post by: PolarBear on September 03, 2016, 10:25:45 PM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on September 04, 2016, 08:46:31 AM
Believing that a certain ammunition which shoots well or poorly in one rifle will shoot the same in a different firearm is a fool's errand. Two identical rifles of the same make, model and caliber will often shoot differently with the same ammunition. Very slight variations in barrels can result in different harmonics as a bullet travels down the barrel.
Conclusion: only your rifle can tell you which ammunition it prefers or dislikes.
:yeah:
Post by: Stickerbush on September 12, 2016, 08:12:19 PM
Today was range day and I brought the federal 168gr match, hornaday match 168 and barnes 168. Shot 18 total and really focused on form. Got some decent groups but I have some work to do still. Was told that the vertical gaping in my groups is due to improper breathing. I can feel it too, I'm still really working on getting that surprise shot. Got my trigger pull tested at like 3.5 lbs. Had a really solid rest this time too. Here are the groups, the best I got was from the barnes
Post by: Stickerbush on September 12, 2016, 08:14:52 PM
Post by: Taco280AI on September 12, 2016, 08:33:23 PM
Post by: cooltimber on September 12, 2016, 08:36:55 PM
Post by: lokidog on September 12, 2016, 09:05:25 PM
Post by: jasnt on September 12, 2016, 09:53:46 PM
Post by: Stickerbush on September 13, 2016, 05:08:45 AM
Are those at 50 or 100?
100
Post by: Stickerbush on September 13, 2016, 05:09:55 AM
Another thing that will help your groups is to shoot at a target that has nice crisp aiming points, like the corner of a square, or an 'X'. Aiming at the edge of a circle will give you some built in error automatically. :twocents:
good idea, thanks
Post by: ctwiggs1 on September 13, 2016, 06:25:46 AM
Overall I think you've got this in the bag, just keep it up and don't stop practicing. Eventually it'll be muscle memory.
:twocents:
Curtis