Post by: ghosthunter on October 26, 2016, 11:31:33 AM
While in Twisp area this year a game agent stopped by our camp to check us. Three of us were Hunter Ed Instructors so we had a nice 30 minute conversation with him.
The guy above us had accidently shot a 1x2 and self reported himself to the game agent.
In the agents truck were seven illegal buck heads, spikes,2ts.etc.
In the next two days he got two more I know of.
This was one agent.
How many people are just shooting and counting points later?
How many shoot and walk away?
Maybe we should shoot the 2pt and smaller and permit draw for bigger bucks?
I think this is having a impact on mule deer in the Twisp ,Winthrop area.
What ya think?
Post by: LDennis24 on October 26, 2016, 11:49:55 AM
Post by: Jolten on October 26, 2016, 11:51:31 AM
Post by: bobcat on October 26, 2016, 11:54:21 AM
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 26, 2016, 11:56:26 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 26, 2016, 11:56:59 AM
Post by: Special T on October 26, 2016, 11:59:03 AM
I'm not sure mule deer can/should be managed in the same way it has been for years.
Post by: ghosthunter on October 26, 2016, 12:01:09 PM
I also think it could kill hunting entirely. Many hunt because they are in a group and they enjoy the group. Permit only would kill the hunting camp traditions. And many hunters would just give it up rather than hunt alone.
Post by: Special T on October 26, 2016, 12:03:57 PM
I think a draw only for Mule deer would be a up hill battle. Twisp and Winthrop would fight it. I would be a huge economic threat to those areas.There in lies the rub. Economic activity vs big horned deer potential.
Post by: boneaddict on October 26, 2016, 12:05:32 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on October 26, 2016, 12:05:44 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on October 26, 2016, 12:08:30 PM
Post by: Buckblaster on October 26, 2016, 12:11:08 PM
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 26, 2016, 12:14:01 PM
I think it's slop hunting, and is despicable,
:yeah:
If there is any doubt don't pull the trigger, I've had more than a couple 3+ points get away from me while trying to for sure put on the 3rd point while muzzleloader hunting. By the time I found the 3rd point, lowered my binos, and raised my rifle they took off. They know when you find that point, they milled around in front of me for minutes but as soon as you find that 3rd point they're outta there! Better safe than sorry! It's not worth the ticket and wasting an animal.
Post by: snowshoes22 on October 26, 2016, 12:15:23 PM
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 26, 2016, 12:17:33 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on October 26, 2016, 12:21:20 PM
I like that idea, to have a permit draw to allow someone to shoot a 2 pt. :tup:
And the two point should be regulated to a min size, just don't know how that could be done.
I chased one this year that I just couldn't put a third point on due to light conditions, and the deer finally bugging out. Man he was tall.
Post by: JODakota on October 26, 2016, 12:22:37 PM
Mule deer should be by permit only to limit the hunting pressure, and any buck should be legal. IMO
I would support this as long as they have out a reasonable number of permits and by that I mean you should be able to have a buck tag every few years.
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 26, 2016, 12:23:00 PM
Post by: Katmai Guy on October 26, 2016, 12:25:09 PM
Post by: superdown on October 26, 2016, 12:26:57 PM
Post by: go4steelhd on October 26, 2016, 12:27:22 PM
I'm at a loss for ideas that would actually help deer numbers, and not cause people to give up hunting.
Post by: X-Force on October 26, 2016, 12:32:23 PM
I think it's slop hunting, and is despicable, but NOT what is hurting the deer population in the Methow.:yeah:
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 26, 2016, 12:32:45 PM
Shoot spikes general season and permit only for any branched antlered buck. Will cut down on pressure because nobody wants to hunt for spikes but kids, right? and you could control how many mature bucks were killed each year. Works for elk, not sure if it would work for deer.
I know a lot of adults who meat hunt who would drop a spike mulie at the drop of a hat! Opening morning would sound like a war if it were spike only.
Post by: mburrows on October 26, 2016, 12:36:26 PM
Mule deer should be by permit only to limit the hunting pressure, and any buck should be legal. IMO
I like this even though i love hunting them every year. I think it would really help them and make the hunting great. There would probably still be areas you could draw every year.
Post by: Katmai Guy on October 26, 2016, 12:40:58 PM
Post by: tonymiller7 on October 26, 2016, 12:44:04 PM
Post by: bobcat on October 26, 2016, 12:45:19 PM
Mule deer should be by permit only to limit the hunting pressure, and any buck should be legal. IMO
I would support this as long as they have out a reasonable number of permits and by that I mean you should be able to have a buck tag every few years.
I'd say there should be enough tags issued so that people draw at least every other year, on average.
Another option would be OTC tags with a quota per region, or GMU.
Post by: Bucks2Ducks on October 26, 2016, 12:52:15 PM
Really? I don't see that many spike mule deer, generally 2 points.Shoot spikes general season and permit only for any branched antlered buck. Will cut down on pressure because nobody wants to hunt for spikes but kids, right? and you could control how many mature bucks were killed each year. Works for elk, not sure if it would work for deer.
I know a lot of adults who meat hunt who would drop a spike mulie at the drop of a hat! Opening morning would sound like a war if it were spike only.
Post by: Hilltop123 on October 26, 2016, 12:55:25 PM
Everyone has a wild ID #, odds and.evens.for mule deer.
Post by: LDennis24 on October 26, 2016, 12:58:52 PM
Post by: go4steelhd on October 26, 2016, 12:58:59 PM
They may make eastern Washington true spike only for mule deer :chuckle:
Post by: bobcat on October 26, 2016, 01:06:17 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161026%2F29dc17007d422d844cac23d0ff429e91.jpg&hash=f7ef09043a517b710061e2578f5c31c2920c53f9)
http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2016/11/agenda_nov0416.html
Post by: jrebel on October 26, 2016, 01:08:49 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 26, 2016, 01:10:05 PM
We saw some this year that were 2x2s on a 4x4 frame! They were huge.You'd think if piss cutters were being shot and left a huge rack running through the woods would take a bullet even faster.
Post by: bobcat on October 26, 2016, 01:12:30 PM
Post by: CoryTDF on October 26, 2016, 01:14:45 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on October 26, 2016, 01:27:17 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on October 26, 2016, 01:42:11 PM
There are some great posts in here and I love the conversation but I am still shocked to hear of SEVEN illegal deer heads in the back of the truck. :yike: Good golly, what are people doing out there?! :bash: How many more are laying in the woods that people just walked away from when they realized they made a mistake?
Probably a lot. That's why I stopped hunting over there. Bullets flying everywhere.
I think part of the problem is social media. A couple 200" deer hit the ground and everyone that has never hunted over there thinks that's the norm. The mass influx of hunters is crazy. The herd cant sustain that type of pressure. It would be nice to see like 100-200 any buck permits in those muley gmu's. Reduce the pressure, get rid of some of the two points and try and put the quality back in the hunt.
Post by: Hilltop123 on October 26, 2016, 01:42:27 PM
There are some great posts in here and I love the conversation but I am still shocked to hear of SEVEN illegal deer heads in the back of the truck. :yike: Good golly, what are people doing out there?! :bash: How many more are laying in the woods that people just walked away from when they realized they made a mistake?You would probably break down and cry, if you knew the truth.
Post by: hunter399 on October 26, 2016, 01:46:21 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 26, 2016, 01:49:53 PM
Even odd wild Id, Zero rut permits and zero antlerless permits. 5 year plan until herd recovers.
I wonder if the wolves bring in enough to recoup that. Yeah right!
Post by: fishngamereaper on October 26, 2016, 01:53:00 PM
Post by: hunter399 on October 26, 2016, 01:57:03 PM
Post by: Hilltop123 on October 26, 2016, 02:04:19 PM
Think how much money would disappear just in license sales....I said it was an idea, I made no claim that it was a good one. :rolleyes:
Even odd wild Id, Zero rut permits and zero antlerless permits. 5 year plan until herd recovers.
I wonder if the wolves bring in enough to recoup that. Yeah right!
Post by: huntnphool on October 26, 2016, 02:07:44 PM
Mule deer should be by permit only to limit the hunting pressure, and any buck should be legal. IMO
I would support this as long as they have out a reasonable number of permits and by that I mean you should be able to have a buck tag every few years.
I'd say there should be enough tags issued so that people draw at least every other year, on average.
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,86231.msg1080089.html#msg1080089 ;)
Post by: huntnphool on October 26, 2016, 02:10:47 PM
Maybe the super 2 point tag should bounce around each year to other units instead of staying in Harrington and Roosevelt. Even then the purpose is to harvest older age class bucks not just the first dink 2 point a guy comes across. I don't think most hunters have the maturity to only shoot mature bucks.
Throw it in the "quality" deer category, Nov. 1-30 season, create a Washington State Record category for 2 points, I seriously doubt you will see anyone apply for it just to shoot a forkin horn.
Post by: rickomatic on October 26, 2016, 03:35:24 PM
We saw some this year that were 2x2s on a 4x4 frame! They were huge.
My son shot a bruiser 2x3 Monday afternoon way up high on Ramsey. He was all rutted out, and bigger than some of the 4 points I saw taken in the area last week.
When I say 2x3, I mean barely 3. He was sure when he took the shot, but got a bit of a scare when he walked up on it, even though it was a huge body.
Post by: Gringo31 on October 26, 2016, 03:58:26 PM
I have no sympathy for someone paying the price for "guessing" that they were legal. :bash:
Post by: huntandjeep on October 26, 2016, 04:06:48 PM
I like that idea, to have a permit draw to allow someone to shoot a 2 pt. :tup::yeah: I watched a BIG 2×? Sunday for 25+ minutes and couldn't tell if one antler tip was bladed or a small crab claw. Buddy watched him the day before for over an hour with the same conclusion.
Post by: nwwanderer on October 26, 2016, 04:17:36 PM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 26, 2016, 04:18:49 PM
I think it's slop hunting, and is despicable, but NOT what is hurting the deer population in the Methow. If there wasn't three point or better, the herd would be done! Stick a fork in it. Done! It's the only thing keeping a few deer alive. A year like this year with essentially most of the upper age bucks harvested, and nothing but younger deer, and an over abundance of hunters. There would be nothing to rebuild:yeah: I have come to the conclusion that what many consider a "big" 2 is just a young buck with a 18-20" frame. Give him a year and he will blossom into something usually. Not saying all but the vast majority of the deer killed on the 2pt only permits (designed to cull old mature 2x2 deer) are just 1.5 yo deer. Antler width and size do not equat to age :twocents:
Post by: huntnphool on October 26, 2016, 04:19:17 PM
I like that idea, to have a permit draw to allow someone to shoot a 2 pt. :tup::yeah: I watched a BIG 2×? Sunday for 25+ minutes and couldn't tell if one antler tip was bladed or a small crab claw. Buddy watched him the day before for over an hour with the same conclusion.
Sounds like you guys could use a quality spotter. ;)
Post by: huntnphool on October 26, 2016, 04:25:02 PM
I think it's slop hunting, and is despicable, but NOT what is hurting the deer population in the Methow. If there wasn't three point or better, the herd would be done! Stick a fork in it. Done! It's the only thing keeping a few deer alive. A year like this year with essentially most of the upper age bucks harvested, and nothing but younger deer, and an over abundance of hunters. There would be nothing to rebuild:yeah: I have come to the conclusion that what many consider a "big" 2 is just a young buck with a 18-20" frame. Give him a year and he will blossom into something usually. Not saying all but the vast majority of the deer killed on the 2pt only permits (designed to cull old mature 2x2 deer) are just 1.5 yo deer. Antler width and size do not equat to age :twocents:
;)
Post by: Karl Blanchard on October 26, 2016, 04:33:10 PM
Post by: Buckmark on October 26, 2016, 04:35:23 PM
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Habitat/Mule%20Deer%20Initiative/MULEDEER_ANTLERPOINTREGS_REVIE0006790.pdf
Post by: tgomez on October 26, 2016, 04:40:26 PM
Post by: JBar on October 26, 2016, 05:06:05 PM
This is a good read on the subject :twocents:
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Habitat/Mule%20Deer%20Initiative/MULEDEER_ANTLERPOINTREGS_REVIE0006790.pdf
I just read through real quick but it seems WA is the only one that concluded the APR's work? Also it seems in the long term the APR's do not work or even make things worse but what if they rotated the APR's from 3 pt min for a year to 2pt only for 2 years? :dunno: I'm not a biologist so I'm just throwing this out there.
Post by: bobcat on October 26, 2016, 05:08:21 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on October 26, 2016, 05:27:16 PM
Maybe the super 2 point tag should bounce around each year to other units instead of staying in Harrington and Roosevelt. Even then the purpose is to harvest older age class bucks not just the first dink 2 point a guy comes across. I don't think most hunters have the maturity to only shoot mature bucks.
Throw it in the "quality" deer category, Nov. 1-30 season, create a Washington State Record category for 2 points, I seriously doubt you will see anyone apply for it just to shoot a forkin horn.
I would put in for it, I live those big two points. :mgun:
Post by: OutHouse on October 26, 2016, 05:30:37 PM
If the Methow Valley were to go draw only, or quotas, or some other cancellation of the general seasons, should that be done for both mule deer and whitetail?
I ask because I spend a lot of time up there and I don't see that whitetail numbers are down. Sure there was a couple really good years recently, but they seem to be doing the same as usual. In areas with good forage their numbers are high.
Post by: cumminsbassguy on October 26, 2016, 05:31:08 PM
Post by: yakimarcher on October 26, 2016, 05:58:34 PM
Mule deer should be by permit only to limit the hunting pressure, and any buck should be legal. IMO
Agreed, but I do absolutely hate to give something up to fish and game!
Post by: Jimmy33 on October 26, 2016, 06:13:28 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Jimmy33 on October 26, 2016, 06:13:42 PM
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Post by: bigmacc on October 26, 2016, 06:23:57 PM
Mule deer should be by permit only to limit the hunting pressure, and any buck should be legal. IMO
I would support this as long as they have out a reasonable number of permits and by that I mean you should be able to have a buck tag every few years.
I'd say there should be enough tags issued so that people draw at least every other year, on average.
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,86231.msg1080089.html#msg1080089 ;)
A lot of good points AND ideas. I do like phools idea of an extended season but only being able to hunt units over there every other year or some of the ideas letting a limited amount of hunters into units whether by an odd/even system or some sort of drawing. Whats true(at least for the Methow) is there are a lot more people hunting it and with that, unfortunately, comes more mistakes and a few more "bad apples" also. 3 years ago our hunting party found 3 "2point mistakes" and witnessed one that we turned in that was shot from the cab of a truck, as mentioned know one really knows how many are being left out there. There are more people hunting less deer over there every year. Pre north cascades pass(mid 70,s) most people on the west side didn't even know where the "little town at the end of the road"(Winthrop) was or even Twisp for that matter. The herd was the pride and joy of the FISH and GAME dept and things were done to make sure the herd was thriving. Well now we have an over abundance of predators along with some new predators, we have a lot and I mean ALOT more people hunting the valley, yes, social media has helped that part and we have a Department of fish and wildlife now instead of a Fish and GAME dept. As far as the 3 point rule goes, yes I think it is one of the many contributors to the decline because of possibly a huge number of "mistakes" that are left to rot every year. All I know is something needs to be done to help the situation or things will just get worse. This herd once hovered between 30 to 35 thousand head (pre pass), last I heard it was around 10,000 give or take.
Post by: Humptulips on October 26, 2016, 06:54:03 PM
Here is an idea:
Area open to three points, nothing changes but if you kill a two point you present it to WDFW and you can legally take it home but you forfeit next years deer hunt. Take a spike same thing but forfeit two years deer hunting.
Maybe pay a small fee to cover WDFWs cost of you not getting a deer tag next year.
It would voluntarily reduce hunter numbers and subsequent pressure. Reporting is the one bugaboo I can see but maybe something could be figured out.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on October 26, 2016, 06:56:52 PM
So, based off some comments I've read I have to ask:
If the Methow Valley were to go draw only, or quotas, or some other cancellation of the general seasons, should that be done for both mule deer and whitetail?
I ask because I spend a lot of time up there and I don't see that whitetail numbers are down. Sure there was a couple really good years recently, but they seem to be doing the same as usual. In areas with good forage their numbers are high.
How would you define the Methow Valley?
Post by: bigmacc on October 26, 2016, 07:12:14 PM
I am not a fan of multi point rules. I prefer any buck but If you are going to have a three point rule there should be a way to legally tag a mistake or just shoot a big two point if you wish.
Here is an idea:
Area open to three points, nothing changes but if you kill a two point you present it to WDFW and you can legally take it home but you forfeit next years deer hunt. Take a spike same thing but forfeit two years deer hunting.
Maybe pay a small fee to cover WDFWs cost of you not getting a deer tag next year.
It would voluntarily reduce hunter numbers and subsequent pressure. Reporting is the one bugaboo I can see but maybe something could be figured out.
Hmmm......
Post by: Axle on October 26, 2016, 07:18:10 PM
The problem isn't too many hunters. The problem is - and has been for decades - too many darn predators! And we have a corrupt administration that wants to increase predator numbers.
Post by: huntandjeep on October 26, 2016, 07:20:43 PM
Both running Swarovski :tup:. He was just that hard to figure out what was going onI like that idea, to have a permit draw to allow someone to shoot a 2 pt. :tup::yeah: I watched a BIG 2×? Sunday for 25+ minutes and couldn't tell if one antler tip was bladed or a small crab claw. Buddy watched him the day before for over an hour with the same conclusion.
Sounds like you guys could use a quality spotter. ;)
Post by: boneaddict on October 26, 2016, 07:21:59 PM
The 3 point rule has been a success for Washington mulies. There is plenty of cover on the dry side for escapement. It can't be compared to what Oregon did many years ago because the dry side there doesn't compare to Washington's dry side.
The problem isn't too many hunters. The problem is - and has been for decades - too many darn predators! And we have a corrupt administration that wants to increase predator numbers.
Kaboom💥
Getting closer!
Post by: superdown on October 26, 2016, 07:26:15 PM
Post by: bobcat on October 26, 2016, 07:29:19 PM
Post by: Ridgeratt on October 26, 2016, 07:34:31 PM
We spoke to several folks who saw few if any deer. The quality of the Mule deer hunting has declined greatly since I started hunting the area. A large part of that could be blamed on loss of habitat. Everyone wants there piece of the country, myself included. Where there used to be a few houses in the bottom's on the county roads now there is a place every 10 acre's and they all have a dog or many more. When the mule deer used to migrate to the lowlands to winter now they encounter no place to go.
Granted I will still see a few beauties coming up the next couple of weeks during the other deer season but not like it used to be. The few large deer left are competing with the small bucks and due to the amount of smaller bucks I believe the Genetics of the larger bucks has for the most part been breed out of the pool.
On a sidebar I do have a question about the tribal tags and with out turning it into a whizzing contest if a tribal member could pm me to answer.
Post by: skidynastar33 on October 26, 2016, 07:38:23 PM
Post by: mfswallace on October 26, 2016, 07:38:39 PM
I think they just need to add a few permit only trophy units like they have done with the Desert Unit. That might satisfy both sides of this conversation.
Desert won't be a trophy unit for much longer, the week before modern tag opened(2weeks ago) ex gamie of the area said natives took out 10 big bucks and an especially nice drop thine by B lake :bash:
Post by: Bango skank on October 26, 2016, 07:41:09 PM
Predators kill deer but so do people. The reality is predators are plentiful and that's not going to change. So if deer populations are decreasing at a rate that is too high all we can do is decrease the number that hunters take.
We can also have massive predator management reform. Why are you so quick to accept us losing opportunity instead of us gaining opportunity via predator management? Oh, thats going to be hard to make happen, so lets just bend over and take it with a grin?
Post by: WA hunter14 on October 26, 2016, 07:41:29 PM
Predators kill deer but so do people. The reality is predators are plentiful and that's not going to change. So if deer populations are decreasing at a rate that is too high all we can do is decrease the number that hunters take.
wouldn't that just create more predators?
Post by: superdown on October 26, 2016, 07:44:48 PM
Post by: ghosthunter on October 26, 2016, 07:47:44 PM
The game agent told us he took a 3 pt from a guy,shooting across a paved road at a deer standing on private property,while on lookers were yelling for the guy to stop.
Another guy ,on his honeymoon shot a deer standing on a sidewalk in either Twisp or Winthrop.
These kind of people should loose their hunting for years.
As far as predators , I am Not sure I buy that any more.
I heard wolves in Nile, Never in the Methow, and I spend 20-30 days there every year in a tent.
I think it's a people problem.
Post by: WA hunter14 on October 26, 2016, 07:51:15 PM
A lot of the problem is ethics.
The game agent told us he took a 3 pt from a guy,shooting across a paved road at a deer standing on private property,while on lookers were yelling for the guy to stop.
Another guy ,on his honeymoon shot a deer standing on a sidewalk in either Twisp or Winthrop.
These kind of people should loose their hunting for years.
As far as predators , I am Not sure I buy that any more.
I heard wolves in Nile, Never in the Methow, and I spend 20-30 days there every year in a tent.
I think it's a people problem.
i believe its cats not wolves that is the major problem, you wouldn't believe the cat population there compared to a state that allows hound hunting.
Post by: bigmacc on October 26, 2016, 08:00:58 PM
A lot of the problem is ethics.
The game agent told us he took a 3 pt from a guy,shooting across a paved road at a deer standing on private property,while on lookers were yelling for the guy to stop.
Another guy ,on his honeymoon shot a deer standing on a sidewalk in either Twisp or Winthrop.
These kind of people should loose their hunting for years.
As far as predators , I am Not sure I buy that any more.
I heard wolves in Nile, Never in the Methow, and I spend 20-30 days there every year in a tent.
I think it's a people problem.
i believe its cats not wolves that is the major problem, you wouldn't believe the cat population there compared to a state that allows hound hunting.
I 100percent agree on the cat problem, have seen 7 in the last 4 years while scouting.
Post by: bobcat on October 26, 2016, 08:09:11 PM
Predators kill deer but so do people. The reality is predators are plentiful and that's not going to change. So if deer populations are decreasing at a rate that is too high all we can do is decrease the number that hunters take.
We can also have massive predator management reform. Why are you so quick to accept us losing opportunity instead of us gaining opportunity via predator management? Oh, thats going to be hard to make happen, so lets just bend over and take it with a grin?
I'd be fine with hound hunting being legal again, a year around "boot" cougar season, and a general season for bears in the spring.
But even with that I could still support some sort of limitation on mule deer hunting so that the number of hunters is controlled in some way by GMU.
I wouldn't view it as losing opportunity. Id rather have a high quality hunt every other year than a low quality hunt every year.
Post by: Special T on October 26, 2016, 08:12:03 PM
A lot of the problem is ethics.I've seen pics of wolves in a forum members yard in the Methow. They are there. There are a bunch of factors causing problems and because this state loves predators the only real thing we can control (or attempt to) are the people.
The game agent told us he took a 3 pt from a guy,shooting across a paved road at a deer standing on private property,while on lookers were yelling for the guy to stop.
Another guy ,on his honeymoon shot a deer standing on a sidewalk in either Twisp or Winthrop.
These kind of people should loose their hunting for years.
As far as predators , I am Not sure I buy that any more.
I heard wolves in Nile, Never in the Methow, and I spend 20-30 days there every year in a tent.
I think it's a people problem.
Post by: WA hunter14 on October 26, 2016, 08:14:46 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on October 26, 2016, 08:16:32 PM
Post by: Sakko300wsm on October 26, 2016, 09:15:51 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on October 26, 2016, 09:27:52 PM
I chuckle at how many people say they see huge two points.
In what respect?
Post by: Humptulips on October 26, 2016, 10:40:23 PM
you can control the predators but people have to deticate a lot more to it. If hound hunting was legal for one winter dozens and dozens of lions would be killed in the methow and okanogan, hundreds of deer would be potetially saved over the next few years that other wize would be cat food.
No they wouldn't because we have those stupid quotas engineered by Rob Wielgus.
Post by: 270Shooter on October 26, 2016, 11:21:19 PM
This is aimed at rifle deer hunting, I don't think there is any need to change anything with archery or muzzleloader seasons.
Post by: csaaphill on October 26, 2016, 11:35:15 PM
I've been saying for a couple of years now they need to change that rule up now.
At first it was good and seeing bucks where I'd not was a joy, but now it's like :bash:
The issue is no one ever really says much to WDFW it's there that our voice should be heard.
It's been in place for decades now, and needs to change. I'd support a two pt minimum rule for a few years then go to something else then maybe any buck again for a while, but not for decades.
Spike only for elk needs to change too. :twocents:
Post by: huntnphool on October 26, 2016, 11:42:42 PM
Guess my point is eliminating the 3pt restriction but keeping a LONG general season that we have would kill off a very large portion of 1.5-2.5 yo deer
Without also reducing the number of hunters in the field, it would kill off a very large portion of the 3.5, 4.5, 5.5 etc. etc. yo deer as well. :twocents:
Post by: huntnnw on October 26, 2016, 11:45:55 PM
Post by: 270Shooter on October 26, 2016, 11:57:18 PM
ALL mule deer units should be permit only!! Absolutely zero management by WDFW on mule deer its a free for all statewide for 2 weeks with rifles on a animal that is very easy to kill under the age of 4.5. Its a miracle in most units to see bucks that age or older. Almost every state out west manages their mule deer herd well and with permits! Look at NV for instance.. the entire state is permit has 10x the habitat and a fraction of human population as we do. They also have estimated 150,000 mule deer! Yet here in WA we get to all head out and shoot em up.people don't want to hear it but that is what needs to happen.
Post by: huntnnw on October 27, 2016, 03:04:32 AM
Post by: bb76 on October 27, 2016, 06:35:12 AM
1. Move the season later in the year and shorter. Helps to limit hunter numbers. Some people won't want to make the trip in the snow.
2. Change the regulations to either 2 point or allow 2x1 to count as a 3 point.
3. Start hunting predators in the area.
4. Make a bunch of noise for the Fish and Wildlife to get your views heard.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Post by: Duckslayer89 on October 27, 2016, 06:39:32 AM
Post by: huntnnw on October 27, 2016, 06:44:00 AM
Post by: BGLEMIN on October 27, 2016, 06:48:37 AM
This is exactly the track hunters should take with regards to mule deer and will increase the diversity of the herd. If you cull only the bucks with genes that produce antlers with greater than 2 point, then the breeding is done by only those 2 point genes. A diverse herd must be harvested diversely.Mule deer should be by permit only to limit the hunting pressure, and any buck should be legal. IMO
I would support this as long as they have out a reasonable number of permits and by that I mean you should be able to have a buck tag every few years.
I'd say there should be enough tags issued so that people draw at least every other year, on average.
Another option would be OTC tags with a quota per region, or GMU.
Post by: boneaddict on October 27, 2016, 07:19:50 AM
2x1 equals a three point. Oh my!
The reason you guys see two points is its all that is left. I guarantee if it wasn't 3 point or better, you wouldn't see them either. Lol.
Two points aren't the destruction of the herd. Most of those two points will be nice bucks if you let them live more than two years. Yes, there are an occasional big one. There always has been. It's interesting that all of you are worried about messing with the genetic gene pool. Shooting the upper crust with rut tags every year will probably do more damage to the herd, lol.
Hunting is going to have to be limited. I hate to see it, but I do more hunting with a camera these days anyways. It does play right into the wolfhuggers though. What is hunting but a way to cull off the extras and manage a population. Well, we are in a hole right now in the methow. I guess you can focus on the Entitat. It hasn't been destroyed YET
Post by: dvolmer on October 27, 2016, 07:56:09 AM
I chuckle at how many people say they see huge two points.I sort of agree with this statement. They are out there but not as prevalent as it seems some think. This state can not be compared with other states except maybe California and probably not even that. We have way way way more people than all of the other states that have prevalent mule deer herds. Going to a permit only system would be met with much screaming and yelling by hunters who now hunt every year sitting home and shopping with their wives during hunting seasons that they would have to sit out. It would also cost the state in lost revenue and the only reason we even get to hunt at all in this state is because we are a necessary evil in the site of Liberals. They deplore hunting and all it in tales but rely heavily on the revenue it produces for their much needed social programs. We also have a very very Liberal base in the west side that thinks of wolves and Coyotes as little furry balls of fun that are cute, cuddly, and deserve protection and that Mountain lions are little kitties that are being harassed by evil men. Put all that together and combine it with a massive reduction in hunting areas that are going to private hunt clubs and leases and you have a recipe for disaster for the common guy that would like to go out and bag a buck here in Washington on public or private ground. I would hate to be a WDFW biologist and try to balance this all out.
Im not sure of the answer but I have been hunting in this state for the last 35 years plus. I used to hunt up and around the foothills of the blues and around Washtucna and Hooper areas in my late teens and early 20's. We would hunt like crazy and scower the area for miles in hope of finding a spike or 2 point buck (that's all we ever seemed to find). Lots of years with no success. When the three point min rule came out we were devastated and thought it was a terrible thing. First year it was! We watched small bucks that we used to shoot be off limits and it was frustrating. But since then the deer hunting became incredibly better. We shot more bucks and they were bigger than we ever had before. So the three point rule in my opinion isn't perfect by no means but from my experience it is much better then any buck. But it doesn't really matter much more to me because all of my hunting spots that I have hunted for years have had the old men that owned them pass away. They were stewards of the land and were great guys that felt that everyone should have the opportunity to hunt and allowed access. There farms have been taken over by greedy kids or sold to big corporations and everything is about the almighty dollar and they have all turned into hunting clubs or pay to hunt areas. I just cant bring myself to pay $1200-$1500 to shoot a 3x3 or small 4x4. So Montana and Wyoming have been a much better bang for my buck and it has been wonderful. I still do hunt in Washington because I am lucky enough to know just someone that has an awesome ranch that lets me hunt. If I ever loose this spot my Washington days are over.
Post by: OutHouse on October 27, 2016, 08:14:30 AM
So, based off some comments I've read I have to ask:
If the Methow Valley were to go draw only, or quotas, or some other cancellation of the general seasons, should that be done for both mule deer and whitetail?
I ask because I spend a lot of time up there and I don't see that whitetail numbers are down. Sure there was a couple really good years recently, but they seem to be doing the same as usual. In areas with good forage their numbers are high.
How would you define the Methow Valley?
Good question I am thinking GMU's 218, 231, and Perrygin Unit--not sure of the number on that. Maybe 242 should be included as well.
Post by: WAcoueshunter on October 27, 2016, 08:22:19 AM
I chuckle at how many people say they see huge two points.I sort of agree with this statement. They are out there but not as prevalent as it seems some think.
Im not sure of the answer but I have been hunting in this state for the last 35 years plus. We would hunt like crazy and scower the area for miles in hope of finding a spike or 2 point buck (that's all we ever seemed to find). Lots of years with no success. When the three point min rule came out we were devastated and thought it was a terrible thing. First year it was! We watched small bucks that we used to shoot be off limits and it was frustrating. But since then the deer hunting became incredibly better. We shot more bucks and they were bigger than we ever had before. So the three point rule in my opinion isn't perfect by no means but from my experience it is much better then any buck.
:yeah: It's been 30 years for me. I went a LONG time in those early years just trying to put a one inch nubbin on the top of a buck. I can remember trips where I'd see 50+ deer on a ranch we hunted in the Okanogan and couldn't find a horn to save my life. It got WAY better after the 3 point rule went into effect. I've hunted that same ranch on and off since the 3 point rule, and now there are bucks all over that place.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on October 27, 2016, 08:38:22 AM
Not having much cover and having a large cities worth of people move into hunting areas every season hurts the population.
People that know this know this...WA is a freakin joke when it comes to shooting anything over 130".
^^Yep you can shoot a 140" deer but it's gotta be worth the 7 days worth of extra effort that you put into it... or you could go somewhere else and shoot a nice one with less effort.
Oh man...sorry guys. I just got back from mule deer hunting in I DA HO
Post by: BGLEMIN on October 27, 2016, 09:03:26 AM
Targeting a particular genetic phenotype, the physical expression of the genotype, like 3x's of 4x's creates a bottleneck of the genotype of a population to represent the phenotype of traits not targeted.
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 27, 2016, 09:16:07 AM
Post by: bobcat on October 27, 2016, 09:19:18 AM
Post by: Curly on October 27, 2016, 09:21:13 AM
Can you imagine being a biologist for WDFW? I'm sure they do studies and make recommendations based on their studies and then their recommendations get shot down either by the wildlife commission or hunters or the wacko PETA types. Their hands are tied.
Post by: hunter_sean08 on October 27, 2016, 09:24:30 AM
Has there been an uptick in hunters in the area over the years? Yes, at least in the areas we've been hunting. I'd argue that number will start dropping as costs continue to increase, but people know there are trophies in Chelan County. Plenty of the more financially fortunate will continue to hunt the area especially since it's a stone's throw away from Seattle. They've had no problem gobbling up Lake Wenatchee parcels for millions of dollars.
Has there been an increase in predators? Yes, plenty of cats, I've seen the bear chasing fawns before, and I know the wolves are around.
Have the winters been too tough? I don't think we've had too many tough winters historically speaking in the last decade, but when you have a cooler spring and the snowpack lingers in places like Entiat or the Swakane, you see the tough winterkill (see this last winter/spring). Not to mention, you've got shed hunters going into the valleys as early as February, working these tired deer to death.
Has the 3pt rule hurt genetics? Tough to say in some parts of the area because obviously there is some hybridization going on with the blacktails near the PCT. We've taken some nice mulies the last couple years that really had good genes though, and obviously when you see the migration in full swing, the toads start to emerge. It's just not always easy to find the really big ones when the country is hairy and they have thousands of places to hide that no one has ever hunted. I think this is an argument that's easier to make on the other side of the Columbia where the deer don't migrate and have fewer places to hide. When all the big bucks get harvested, it's hard for the herd to pass on the good genes to future generations. At that point you're relying on private land to protect a lot of them.
My thought is that the 3pt rule has been great for the most part, but there are many other forces that are impacting mule deer. Look around, it's not just WA that is going through this problem. Most Western states are seeing declines in muley populations. They aren't good at adapting to human expansion and habitat encroachment like the whitetails are. They give birth to less fawns than whitetails do. When they have to cross major highways to get back and forth between their summer and winter grounds, they're going to take a hit. The weather can be a problem.. Predators are a problem.. Massive wildfires in their wintering range are a temporary, but big problem in the short-term.. Add in the several thousands of hunters that flock from all parts of WA, it doesn't always help, although I believe effective management via hunting is what will keep their populations healthy.
Maybe "effective management" means we'd be better off going to a permit only hunt for mule deer in some areas. I think it will take years of research to decide what's right (WDFW groan), but if it means my future kids and grandchildren and great-grandchildren have a chance to hunt the same animals I've been privileged of hunting for the better part of my life, then I'm all for it. Sorry to write an essay but this seems to be a pretty big topic in camp every year.
Good luck to all the special permit holders.
Post by: gunnarnewt on October 27, 2016, 09:27:49 AM
Post by: Mr Mykiss on October 27, 2016, 09:29:21 AM
I have said for years that mule deer should be by permit only. I love hunting them, but I would rather have a chance at a bruiser and see less blaze orange than hunt every year. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm more into quality than quantity personally. Same down here, we have some seriously huge 2 points running around spreading their genes. They need to be taken out! :twocents::yeah:
Post by: Mr Mykiss on October 27, 2016, 09:29:58 AM
Post by: MTMule on October 27, 2016, 09:30:55 AM
3 pt rule is great. Giant mature two points is an exception, not a rule. You can't sit Back and pretend that's common.
It's shame they got rid of the 4pt rule in those two units for whitetail. All the locals could see it working.
Post by: bobcat on October 27, 2016, 09:32:26 AM
"Our deer populations are managed for opportunity, not for quality" -WDFW
Translation: We manage for the most deer tags that can possibly be sold.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on October 27, 2016, 09:46:28 AM
Translation: We all about dat money!!"Our deer populations are managed for opportunity, not for quality" -WDFW
Translation: We manage for the most deer tags that can possibly be sold.
Post by: Hunterman on October 27, 2016, 09:47:52 AM
As far as the season goes. Make it the same as the rest of the deer season. If the hunters have more time to hunt, then they just MIGHT take their time on the shot. My dad and I never hunted our mule deer area until the last week of October to the first week of November, and rarely did we see anyone.
Just something to think about.
Hunterman(Tony)
Post by: dmoua on October 27, 2016, 09:48:22 AM
Post by: buckfvr on October 27, 2016, 09:49:05 AM
It's not just the 3 point minimum rule, it's the fact that the number of hunters is unlimited. What would be much better is to cut the number of hunters in half and eliminate the 3 point restriction.
Even half the hunters would nearly eliminate all the young bucks to the point of entire age class of animals being all but gone. Half the hunters AND 3point rule at least until some improvement in over all herd size is notable.
THings are going just about as planned by politically charged wdfw......Im of the opinion predators will eventually get ungulate herds protected and be the end of hunting. Virtually everywhere we went in the Kettles for mulies had copious amounts of wolf crap to go along with either howling and or actual sightings.
I also dont think many hunters have a good idea of what they are seeing and what they should expect to see, let alone what some of us who are a bit older have seen in the past.
Make no mistake about it, the good old days are behind us and the very people who are charged with management of our wild resources could give a rats arse, they are all just in full blown pension protection, dont rock the boat mode. It will get much worse before it ever changes direction. We need a public oversight committee to manage wdfw and they would need the power to hire and fire the management. The committee would rotate persons by the half every two years for transparency. :twocents:
Post by: gunnarnewt on October 27, 2016, 09:56:48 AM
Quote from: Mr Mykiss on Today at 09:29:58 AM
"Our deer populations are managed for opportunity, not for quality" -WDFW
Translation: We manage for the most deer tags that can possibly be sold.
:yeah: :chuckle:
Post by: Katmai Guy on October 27, 2016, 10:01:15 AM
Post by: Katmai Guy on October 27, 2016, 10:02:21 AM
Post by: Jonathan_S on October 27, 2016, 10:11:48 AM
I chuckle at how many people say they see huge two points.
In what respect?
I guess in short, I don't believe most of them. It's just a cool thing to say I guess.
Post by: jackelope on October 27, 2016, 10:20:40 AM
I chuckle at how many people say they see huge two points.
In what respect?
I guess in short, I don't believe most of them. It's just a cool thing to say I guess.
As was mentioned earlier I think...one person's idea of a "huge" 2 point is different than the next person's.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on October 27, 2016, 10:24:19 AM
If we want more deer we should be talking about habitat issues: weeds are a terrible issue, the winter range is largely developed with homes and roads, logging is slow, and fires are still being repressed. Couple those habitat issues with loss to roadkill, increased predation and poaching and it should not be a surprise that legal hunters are disappointed.
Post by: bigmacc on October 27, 2016, 10:25:13 AM
Move the season later? Are you serious?
2x1 equals a three point. Oh my!
The reason you guys see two points is its all that is left. I guarantee if it wasn't 3 point or better, you wouldn't see them either. Lol.
Two points aren't the destruction of the herd. Most of those two points will be nice bucks if you let them live more than two years. Yes, there are an occasional big one. There always has been. It's interesting that all of you are worried about messing with the genetic gene pool. Shooting the upper crust with rut tags every year will probably do more damage to the herd, lol.
Hunting is going to have to be limited. I hate to see it, but I do more hunting with a camera these days anyways. It does play right into the wolfhuggers though. What is hunting but a way to cull off the extras and manage a population. Well, we are in a hole right now in the methow. I guess you can focus on the Entitat. It hasn't been destroyed YET
:tup: :tup: :tup:
Post by: swanny on October 27, 2016, 10:27:28 AM
Post by: dmoua on October 27, 2016, 10:38:29 AM
I chuckle at how many people say they see huge two points.
In what respect?
I guess in short, I don't believe most of them. It's just a cool thing to say I guess.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi23.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb384%2Fdaniel_moua%2FIMG_4336_zpsjzzmpcf5.jpg&hash=4ba67373827bd3877507d9592a459ba27b8427ce) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/daniel_moua/media/IMG_4336_zpsjzzmpcf5.jpg.html)
Post by: Mr Mykiss on October 27, 2016, 10:56:49 AM
Post by: JBar on October 27, 2016, 11:07:11 AM
Are you calling that deer huge?
He may not be mature but he's not your average 2pt either.
Post by: RileyH on October 27, 2016, 11:07:54 AM
I think the problem is more the laziness of the average hunter, and unwillingness to work for a mature deer. Same basic philosophical issue everyone loves to point out about my fellow millennials, everyone feels they deserve "it" (self-defined) and it's all Red Herring's and finger pointing when they don't get "it" because it sure isn't their fault.
Deer aren't dumb like the average hunter I've spoken to seems to think. Opening day when the swarms of road hunters take to the Methow Valley, the mature deer move up and away from the roads like clockwork. The big bucks know what time of the year it is, this happens on a schedule and there aren't 40 trucks on the road when it's not hunting season. I saw six (6) nice 4x's opening weekend, including a 170's buck that I missed, all moving up the hills directly away from the roads. It was maybe an hour after light and they were already well on their way to their hiding spots. Saw about 20 trophy class trucks cruising circles as well through the spotting scope, loaded up with guys and guns. My Dad said the number of road warriors the last two years reminds him of the 70's and 80's.
Only the young bucks are left hanging around because they don't know any better. Which leads to desperate (see lazy) hunters growing 3rds like magic and smoking all the spikes and 2's along the roads. I watched a truck through the scope this year get out and shoot two guns at a group of deer along the road, walk up to where they were standing, hustle back to the truck and leave. Went to look on my way back to camp that night and there was a dead 2x lying 50' off the road with the backstraps cut out. Hell I was packing my buck out and about a half mile from the road and two guys drove up on me in a four-wheeler, beers in hand, asking how I managed to find a buck with "no deer around".
I've seen some of these super 2s running around as well, but only down in Steptoe and Ritzville. They are truly 4-7 year old bucks in their prime with massive frames, I saw one this year this had to be 24" tall and 28"+ wide, just outside of Sprague.
A seemingly large increase in the number of hunters, the average guy being too lazy and/or unethical, and the natural cycle and evolution are all that's happening in my opinion. Now when the wolves start to spread like wildfire, then we'll have a serious issue to talk about. :twocents:
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 27, 2016, 11:08:45 AM
Why isn't anyone talking about habitat issues to help the deer populations? It's not an accident that the deer herd was at it's all time (in written record) high ~30-50 years after a HUGE fire year and while logging across the west was going crazy.
If we want more deer we should be talking about habitat issues: weeds are a terrible issue, the winter range is largely developed with homes and roads, logging is slow, and fires are still being repressed. Couple those habitat issues with loss to roadkill, increased predation and poaching and it should not be a surprise that legal hunters are disappointed.
A lot of people are talking about and working on habitat issues. The solutions are not mutually exclusive.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on October 27, 2016, 11:18:48 AM
Are you calling that deer huge?My bad...I forgot there for a minute that we were talking about WA mule deer. Yep that there is a huge mule deer (in WA) the kinda deer that you bring back to camp and people be all like "Daaaaaaaaang son. Where'd you find that one??"
He may not be mature but he's not your average 2pt either.
Post by: buckfvr on October 27, 2016, 11:41:21 AM
Post by: Curly on October 27, 2016, 11:54:13 AM
It all depends on what hunters are willing to live with and what WDFW is willing to lose on license revenue. I suspect the majority of hunters aren't willing to make changes and WDFW doesn't want to lose license revenue. :'(
Post by: boneaddict on October 27, 2016, 12:04:44 PM
Sure habitat is a major issue........people now occupy most all historical mule deer wintering grounds. This state may be the worst.
Interesting note on this, the large tracts are what is "saving" the deer right now. If it wasn't for the refuge effect, of some of this private, things would be worse if you can imagine that
Basically spot on Curly. But you'll hear even on here..".make the seasons longer and later." :rolleyes:
Post by: Bill W on October 27, 2016, 12:12:43 PM
A friend of mine hunted this same area from before it was a wilderness area and I wonder what he saw back then. This was in the early 60's. I think I heard Glacier Peak Wilderness was established somewhere around 1963.
What I suspect is the small bucks gather in one spot, the bigger ones (legal 3's and 4's 18-20" wide) in another and the bruisers in yet a different spot. I think that if a person is seeing small bucks the issue is they should move to a different location, whether it be distance, cover, elevation or something else that makes it different.
Post by: Rainier10 on October 27, 2016, 12:39:05 PM
Lots of great ideas here.
I will say since the 3pt minimum rule was introduced I see more bucks than before. I do see lots of two pts but I am not sure there are a ton of really big ones in the areas that I hunt. There are a lot of standard sized two points but that is because you can't shoot them. I also see a bunch of 3x's and 4x's. Maybe I am just hunting in good areas. My kids have the multiseason tags so we hunted archery and muzzy season, one tagged out in each season. Their cousin had a rifle tag and had opportunities at multiple legal bucks and ended up tagging out on the second weekend.
I am concerned about the amount of deer taken by predators and after reading the first post I am really concerned about how many deer are being taken by mistake.
Post by: timberfaller on October 27, 2016, 12:50:32 PM
Having spent most of the general season in the Methow, hunting all my ole stomping(logging) grounds, here is goes!!
Last years fires concentrated a whole lot of Okanogan deer into the Methow drainage's, after season estimates put the slaughter at 550+ bucks :yike: add to that a un-reported :dunno: winter kill.
Talked to numerous hunters and their FIRST question was, "where are all the deer at?" :chuckle: On private property!
Yes a few were found and taken, but as one guy told us, (spent the season with my brother in law), "the west side game dept. people told them it would be as good a season as last years" :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Before I moved out of the Methow(5 years ago) I had a very interesting conversation with a now retired game warden. His take on the "3 point or better" was, "it needed to be abandoned" he also informed me that the agency no longer was interested in what the "wardens" opinions were :yike: only the "biologist" had any creditably in regards to what was going on "outdoors"!! bunch of desk jockey's!!
My take on this years season in the Methow, I have never seen so FEW deer there!! Up high(in the snow) and down low on Private lands! The numbers are NOT there, BEST thing that could be done is to CLOSE those units(224,231 and 239)for at least 2-3 years. I can hear the screams now!!
What makes me even :bash: is the WDFG stance reported in all the local papers was, "the 3 point system is working!" in regards to last years slaughter. Common sense says otherwise!! :hello:
Post by: JBar on October 27, 2016, 01:43:21 PM
:chuckle:Are you calling that deer huge?My bad...I forgot there for a minute that we were talking about WA mule deer. Yep that there is a huge mule deer (in WA) the kinda deer that you bring back to camp and people be all like "Daaaaaaaaang son. Where'd you find that one??"
He may not be mature but he's not your average 2pt either.
Post by: buckfvr on October 27, 2016, 02:07:45 PM
Sure habitat is a major issue........people now occupy most all historical mule deer wintering grounds. This state may be the worst.
Interesting note on this, the large tracts are what is "saving" the deer right now. If it wasn't for the refuge effect, of some of this private, things would be worse if you can imagine that
Basically spot on Curly. But you'll hear even on here..".make the seasons longer and later." :rolleyes:
I agree, however I was pointing more at the folks who have settled in the valley bottoms where the deer once sought winter refuge....And yes Curly is right. Im just not sure I trust wdfw enough to hand them the keys to an emergency closure of any sort.
Post by: LDennis24 on October 27, 2016, 03:30:49 PM
Post by: ghosthunter on October 27, 2016, 03:58:05 PM
I've gotta ask just outta curiousity from you guys that hunt there- how many wolves have you seen, did you hunt this year , were you successful and if not how far from the road were you?
My group hunts there. 7 this year. Average age 60. No more than 3 miles from road. Saw lots of smaller bucks, killed no bucks. One doe tag filled , one not.
No wolves or cats, heard yotes though.
Camped there 15 days in tents.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 27, 2016, 04:16:50 PM
Seeing how mature mule deer bucks are the best for breeding does, maybe no rut permit hunts should occur in some of these areas where numbers are way down. That might help keep some of the big boys around to spread their genes and have the most success in breeding and fawn survival. Maybe no doe seasons should occur until the deer numbers go up? :dunno:
It all depends on what hunters are willing to live with and what WDFW is willing to lose on license revenue. I suspect the majority of hunters aren't willing to make changes and WDFW doesn't want to lose license revenue. :'(
:yeah:
I enjoy being able to hunt deer every year... the killing a deer every year part is just a bonus, so at 1st thought I was not liking the odd/even every other year thing. BUT I think I could get on board with every other year mulie hunting if the same was done for elk hunting.
This way a guy gets to hunt every single year and it would benefit both the mulies and the elk.
The question is, If mulie hunting is reduced/limited, how will this effect the blackie & whitey hunting? Seems these species would get hit a lot harder. :dunno:
Post by: Sakko300wsm on October 27, 2016, 05:32:40 PM
I've gotta ask just outta curiousity from you guys that hunt there- how many wolves have you seen, did you hunt this year , were you successful and if not how far from the road were you?
My group hunts there. 7 this year. Average age 60. No more than 3 miles from road. Saw lots of smaller bucks, killed no bucks. One doe tag filled , one not.
No wolves or cats, heard yotes though.
Camped there 15 days in tents.
We had camp set up at 6000'. Was 7 of us - 5 only hunted 2 days and went home. Me and my wife hunted deer 4 days(had the whole 11 days off) , got 2 nice bucks down, killed grouse another day and came home on Thursday before snow got bad where we were. No wolves or cats. Saw quite a few deer - probably shoulda held out a few more days , but oh well. 3-5 miles in everyday, saw quite a few deer and no people except making tire tracks
Post by: eliandsky on October 27, 2016, 06:11:47 PM
I've only hunted for the last 5 years. I was taught hard work and perseverance pays off. I've killed an average 135-145 4point every year and not once has it been easy it's 10mile days and 3000'. I see only whole deer in camps and of the 650 deer at Thompson's last year 95% were whole. That may never happen again.
Pod casts internet google earth hunt-WA have made deer hunting education accessible to everyone. Hunters are educated like never before. Hunters are becoming athletes. Hunters are changing. Hunting is going to get harder and maybe that's ok.
Hope this guy grew an eye guard this year and someone found him.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20161028%2F0ae02af50ea0ed5b85b29c41c0fd2f3e.png&hash=691be6efee9c1420f3b4ca45d36237ad43247dcc)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Jonathan_S on October 27, 2016, 06:14:09 PM
Post by: Sakko300wsm on October 27, 2016, 06:18:03 PM
Post by: nimrod67 on October 27, 2016, 07:57:24 PM
Post by: Sakko300wsm on October 27, 2016, 08:06:09 PM
Post by: dmoua on October 27, 2016, 09:56:13 PM
Are you calling that deer huge?
Huge? Maybe not but he's not small.
Post by: bigmacc on November 04, 2016, 05:53:23 PM
A lot of the problem is ethics.
The game agent told us he took a 3 pt from a guy,shooting across a paved road at a deer standing on private property,while on lookers were yelling for the guy to stop.
Another guy ,on his honeymoon shot a deer standing on a sidewalk in either Twisp or Winthrop.
These kind of people should loose their hunting for years.
As far as predators , I am Not sure I buy that any more.
I heard wolves in Nile, Never in the Methow, and I spend 20-30 days there every year in a tent.
I think it's a people problem.
I did not hunt the Methow this year, 1st time I have not in 50 years. Just figured it would be a little bigger circus than usual and from what I heard from a few buddies that were there, it sure was. I agree with your statement about ethics Ghost, the last few years I or my pardners have witnessed or heard from honest people about some real shamefull hunting techniques,alot of them envolving adults with there kids with them. I have witnessed an adult shooting 2 does then having the 2 kids that was with him tag them, I have seen people shoot from paved roads with kids with them, I have seen people shoot from inside a vehicle, with a youngster with them a half hour before shooting time! I have witnessed 4 teenagers blazing away at a buck from a paved road with a NO HUNTING sign 3 feet from them. I will say there have always been "bad apples" but I can say the last 10 years have been an uptic. So Ghost, I agree that a lot of deer are being taken illegally, a lot are being left out there because of mistakes and I agree with you that a lot of these people should loose their hunting for a long time. What worries me most is what some of these "adults" are teaching our future hunters. Thank you all that teach your young ones to respect other hunters, property and the animals they are hunting. I had my 2 granddaughters with me this year, 10 and 12 years old, we hunted a little farther east this year and the 3 of us put on 2 to 7 miles a day. We seen a lot of deer, had a couple opportunities at a couple dandy bucks but they were "A LITTLE TO FAR AWAY PAPA, I DONT WANT TO WOUND IT", the bucks were about 250 yards away, one was a real dandy, about a 26-27 inch 4 by 6. She felt comfortable at around 100 to 150 yrds and PAPA wasn't shootin it for her :chuckle:
Post by: boneaddict on November 04, 2016, 05:57:38 PM
Post by: Axle on November 04, 2016, 07:06:40 PM
I'm glad you had a good season. I just got back from the Methow. Worst photo trip I have ever had. By the way, if it wasn't for three point or better, you wouldn't have any surviving bucks. Seriously the worst I have seen. It's criminal what they have done.
:yeah:
Post by: Axle on November 04, 2016, 07:21:00 PM
Quote
In 1983 (or so) the rule changed to "three point or better).
It was many years beyond '83. I don't keep the old regs but I would guess it was more like mid to late '90s.
Somebody reading this would know.....
well - cough it up guys....
OK, I'm reduced to making popcorn and waiting for the answer..... :hello:
Post by: boneaddict on November 04, 2016, 07:36:22 PM
Post by: bigboy on November 04, 2016, 08:18:52 PM
Post by: bigmacc on November 04, 2016, 08:53:31 PM
I'm glad you had a good season. I just got back from the Methow. Worst photo trip I have ever had. By the way, if it wasn't for three point or better, you wouldn't have any surviving bucks. Seriously the worst I have seen. It's criminal what they have done.
I agree bone, its a real shame. That once mighty herd is a mere shadow of what some of us remember, as far as the 3 point or better, you are spot on.
Post by: Hilltop123 on November 04, 2016, 09:00:17 PM
Post by: Humptulips on November 04, 2016, 10:01:03 PM
I read here the population is down but seems like a lot of complaint about size of bucks. Are their actually barren does around? Not enough bucks to service the does?
If the answer is no how does this have any effect on the population?
If it was any buck do you think this would lead to barren does?
It seems like some here are complaining because they are not seeing bruisers.
Does the average hunter want to just be successful or are they willing to forgo hunting to improve their chance of getting that bruiser?
I know where I hunt the deer are few and far between and it has nothing to do with hunters. Is it possible your problems are not hunters?
Is it just a problem of too many west side guys coming over? If it is maybe the answer to your problem is predator management on the west side because I know that is the problem in my area. I know some guys that go east and then show back up after mulies close.
Oh and I heard several times doe tags. How do doe tags square with trying to increase the population?
Post by: boneaddict on November 04, 2016, 10:10:39 PM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on November 05, 2016, 07:55:27 AM
It's criminal what they have done.I'm not super familiar with the herd there; what have they done to cause the decline?
Post by: boneaddict on November 05, 2016, 08:14:08 AM
Post by: Westside88 on November 05, 2016, 09:28:59 AM
Post by: bigmacc on November 05, 2016, 11:56:24 AM
Predator management, tag allocation numbers, antlerless harvest, season dates, ignorance of herd decline
There you go, in a nutshell. A handful of reasons, in my opinion the 1st and the last are the big ones although everyone of them are contributors..... :twocents:
Post by: huntnphool on November 05, 2016, 11:59:36 AM
Predator management, tag allocation numbers, antlerless harvest, season dates, ignorance of herd decline
There you go, in a nutshell. A handful of reasons, in my opinion the 1st and the last are the big ones although everyone of them are contributors..... :twocents:
+1
Post by: Humptulips on November 05, 2016, 08:33:34 PM
I spent yesterday out. I counted 4 bucks. I average 50. most doe were not covered. Doe themselves were way down in count. There were other indicators I wasn't just having an off day. :dunno:
You should come to my neck of the woods. Four deer in a day let alone bucks would be a stellar day. I saw 10 deer in 7 days of hard hunting.
Post by: UBA on November 05, 2016, 11:15:20 PM
Post by: Mr Mykiss on November 06, 2016, 09:48:35 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on August 10, 2017, 09:48:28 AM
I think it's slop hunting, and is despicable, but NOT what is hurting the deer population in the Methow. If there wasn't three point or better, the herd would be done! Stick a fork in it. Done! It's the only thing keeping a few deer alive. A year like this year with essentially most of the upper age bucks harvested, and nothing but younger deer, and an over abundance of hunters. There would be nothing to rebuildYep- the 3 pt rule is not the problem, people shooting illegal bucks is the problem. people need to dentify their target.
Post by: predatorG on August 11, 2017, 07:06:40 PM
Seeing how mature mule deer bucks are the best for breeding does, maybe no rut permit hunts should occur in some of these areas where numbers are way down. That might help keep some of the big boys around to spread their genes and have the most success in breeding and fawn survival. Maybe no doe seasons should occur until the deer numbers go up? :dunno:
It all depends on what hunters are willing to live with and what WDFW is willing to lose on license revenue. I suspect the majority of hunters aren't willing to make changes and WDFW doesn't want to lose license revenue. :'(
:yeah:
I enjoy being able to hunt deer every year... the killing a deer every year part is just a bonus, so at 1st thought I was not liking the odd/even every other year thing. BUT I think I could get on board with every other year mulie hunting if the same was done for elk hunting.
This way a guy gets to hunt every single year and it would benefit both the mulies and the elk.
The question is, If mulie hunting is reduced/limited, how will this effect the blackie & whitey hunting? Seems these species would get hit a lot harder. :dunno:
I realize how old this thread is but it popped back up and I find it to be interesting, if not relevant. I think that limited Mulie hunting would be worse for white tails than blacktails. There really aren't too many "bad blacktail hunters". The bad blacktail hunters are the ones that get nothing, not the ones who blast away at them on a hillside. I believe blacktails are the most resilient species and the hardest to hunt. If we just made everyone that blasted unethically at mulies on a hill hunt blacktail for 5 years, we'd end up with a lot more quality hunters. :twocents:
Post by: HoofsandWings on August 11, 2017, 09:17:02 PM
A few years earlier, the racks were much smaller. Yes you have to be careful when you see a big rack.