Post by: canyelk48 on December 13, 2016, 05:16:24 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 13, 2016, 05:18:33 PM
Post by: Buzz2401 on December 13, 2016, 05:38:34 PM
Post by: Bill W on December 13, 2016, 05:39:34 PM
I'm not saying they had permission, nor that they were master hunters. Just wondered why you believed one statement and not the other. I would think both were BS.
Post by: Buzz2401 on December 13, 2016, 05:45:35 PM
Post by: boneaddict on December 13, 2016, 05:49:45 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on December 13, 2016, 05:53:09 PM
Post by: jackelope on December 13, 2016, 05:55:28 PM
The intentions of this program are great. The results of this program often aren't. Several good examples are always trumped by a few culls. :twocents:
That's a real good way of putting it.
Post by: Bob33 on December 13, 2016, 05:57:57 PM
Post by: jackelope on December 13, 2016, 05:58:55 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on December 13, 2016, 06:00:00 PM
The intentions of this program are great. The results of this program often aren't. Several good examples are always trumped by a few culls. :twocents::yeah: :yeah:
Good on the OP for reporting it. They should be removed from the program for this type of activity.
Post by: JBar on December 13, 2016, 06:00:29 PM
Post by: BreezyBear on December 13, 2016, 06:09:49 PM
Post by: jay.sharkbait on December 13, 2016, 06:10:42 PM
Did they have any pepshi's in thier cooler?
Post by: Rainier10 on December 13, 2016, 06:11:54 PM
I'm holding out to join a group with only perfect hunters.So you don't want to hunt with the master hunters, the yakama's, the muckleshoots, the couple from Oregon or Tod Riechert? What the heck Bob?
Post by: Bob33 on December 13, 2016, 06:13:06 PM
It's tough being a lone wolf without perfect hunting companions. I had one once until I learned he took at shot and killed an animal at too far a distance.I'm holding out to join a group with only perfect hunters.So you don't want to hunt with the master hunters, the yakama's, the muckleshoots, the couple from Oregon or Tod Riechert? What the heck Bob?
Post by: brew on December 13, 2016, 06:17:28 PM
I'm holding out to join a group with only perfect hunters.Copy that Bob33...it doesn't matter what group you belong to--be it licensed hunters, "master hunters", natives, boy scouts, law enforcement, foster parents etc, etc. there will always be a bad element in place in any group...that doesn't mean you shut the whole thing down...you are just cutting a nose off to despite ones face. these groups are in place to provide a needed service and if they screw up they should be dealt with lawfully--not at the expense of those who are doing it legally...you are not going to curtail someone's illegal activity by bitching about it on these web sites...if your are serious about these offenses introduce legislation that funds more Law Enforcement FTE's....the more people out enforcing the better
Post by: Watimberghost on December 13, 2016, 06:18:17 PM
Unreal... I can't believe you would acquaintance yourself with people like that. :)It's tough being a lone wolf without perfect hunting companions. I had one once until I learned he took at shot and killed an animal at too far a distance.I'm holding out to join a group with only perfect hunters.So you don't want to hunt with the master hunters, the yakama's, the muckleshoots, the couple from Oregon or Tod Riechert? What the heck Bob?
Post by: Rainier10 on December 13, 2016, 06:20:06 PM
:yeah:I'm holding out to join a group with only perfect hunters.Copy that Bob33...it doesn't matter what group you belong to--be it licensed hunters, "master hunters", natives, boy scouts, law enforcement, foster parents etc, etc. there will always be a bad element in place in any group...that doesn't mean you shut the whole thing down...you are just cutting a nose off to despite ones face. these groups are in place to provide a needed service and if they screw up they should be dealt with lawfully--not at the expense of those who are doing it legally...you are not going to curtail someone's illegal activity by bitching about it on these web sites...if your are serious about these offenses introduce legislation that funds more Law Enforcement FTE's....the more people out enforcing the better
Post by: ghosthunter on December 13, 2016, 06:26:47 PM
This type of behavior is rampant in this state. Regardless of what group you belong too.
Most property owners who are plagued with elk problems really don't care how the job gets done.
These are not hunts. They are killings. The intent is to kill the offending animals and except for bad press the DFW really don't care how it is accomplished.
If it is your fences,crops,pasture or property being destroyed by the game Dept bringing in elk with no end plan to control them, you are looking for any relief. Like in the Skagit Valley.
:twocents:
Post by: MtnMuley on December 13, 2016, 06:33:52 PM
Post by: jstone on December 13, 2016, 06:50:19 PM
Post by: WALLEYEGUY on December 13, 2016, 07:03:59 PM
Post by: baker5150 on December 13, 2016, 07:33:49 PM
These "master hunter" stories make me laugh. I know about some stories that have never been posted that'd would blow most minds. I also know of several others that have prime tablefare for their family every year due to this program while helping out a true struggling farmer. No, I'm not a master hunter either.
This is the issue, you only hear the bad and never the good.
Too many jump to conclusions based on a few 2nd hand stories and a massive lack of information.
This can be said for a lot of issues now days.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 13, 2016, 07:34:21 PM
Post by: Jlittlebear31 on December 13, 2016, 07:57:46 PM
With a wife and four near teenage children I am thankful for my oppurtunity to harvest a cow in the early season. It is my best oppurtunity to get meat on the table and is helpful for local farms and farmers. In addition, as an archer, I have never entered the woods for a MH cow hunt while any archery season is occurring. In exchange, I offer physical labor help to several east side land owners for access.
I do not boast about my success, nor do I make lousy and unethical judgements when I choose to harvest an animal. The vast majority of MH's (I believe) are ethical, smart, enjoy wildlife and hunting and want to bring a good positive light to our sport. To hammer the whole program and those who use it positively seems a bit excessive. I agree with Skyvalhunter, collect license plates, descriptions and take good notes of who is responsible for illegal dangerous actions and report them. My thoughts.....
Post by: chukarchaser on December 13, 2016, 08:38:08 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 07:23:26 AM
The MH program provides a minimum of 16,000 hours of volunteer conservation work each year - minimum; that's if each MH only does what's required. At $10/hr, that saves conservation resources a minimum of $160,000.00 a year. I've personally never done less than 20 hours and I'm not alone. I suggest that our wildlife and budding young hunters would suffer greatly as a result of eliminating this program. Are there a$$hats out there who abuse the program? Yes, of course there are and the WDFW is doing their best to identify and remove those types from the program. Are there regular hunters out there who are unethical and shed a bad light on hunting? I would guarantee there are far more than in the MH ranks. Does that mean we should eliminate hunting altogether? What do you think? Before you decide to eliminate a program which provides much to conservation and our wildlife, I suggest you should definitely learn more about its benefits to our hunting community and wildlife. Closing the program would be tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face, IMHO.
Post by: headshot5 on December 14, 2016, 07:57:20 AM
Quote
Before you decide to eliminate a program which provides much to conservation and our wildlife, I suggest you should definitely learn more about its benefits to our hunting community and wildlife.
Is there somewhere that documents where/what the volunteer hrs of work accomplished? So the non-MH can get an idea of the benefits provided to our ecosystem. It might help the non master hunters if we could tangibly see what service MH provide as far as conservation work.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 07:58:39 AM
Post by: Okanagan on December 14, 2016, 08:00:29 AM
The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that.
Post by: Rainier10 on December 14, 2016, 08:10:22 AM
I've never liked the MH program since I first heard it proposed. It sets up a two tier class of people among hunters, a recipe for tensions and ready-made for divide and conquer anti-hunters. Master Hunter strikes me as a pseudo elitist designation which IMO appeals to the kind of person who likes to join clubs, of which I am not one. But I'm probably in the minority.
The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that.
Two tier is actually what you have. The WDFW wanted a group of hunters that could work as ambassadors of hunting and interact with the private landowners to build a positive image of hunters. The goal was to paint hunters in a better light and hopefully open up more private land for all hunters to access.
Is it working to do that? In many cases yes. However these bad ones really put a black on the program.
One other thing that the program does and I have witnessed personally is to change the habits of the elk. I have seen the impact of these "hunts" on the elk in 3911. I used to see 300-400 elk in the farmers fields in my area and since the hunts have been going on the elk have moved to ground that doesn't result in conflict with private land owners. That's a good thing for everyone. The point of these hunts isn't to give master hunters the opportunity to harvest more elk the point is to haze the elk and make them change their habits. The side benefit is MH's have the opportunity to harvest elk. Now that the hazing is working there is not as much opportunity to harvest an elk.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 08:13:16 AM
I've never liked the MH program since I first heard it proposed. It sets up a two tier class of people among hunters, a recipe for tensions and ready-made for divide and conquer anti-hunters. Master Hunter strikes me as a pseudo elitist designation which IMO appeals to the kind of person who likes to join clubs, of which I am not one. But I'm probably in the minority.
The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that.
It could be argued that if you stopped bashing the program, the "divide and conquer" wouldn't be an issue. Just saying. :dunno: People put in a lot of work to attain and keep their certification and most of the people with whom I've dealt in the program are selfless and in it to help our wildlife. In 6 years, I've been chosen for one tag and never got picked to hunt it. In that time, I've donated a minimum of 150 hours to conservation and hunter education programs. I'll continue to do so regardless of whether or not I get any special tags.
Post by: Rob on December 14, 2016, 08:20:38 AM
If this was a group of MHs, then there was a hunt coordinator. If they were hunting on private land without permission, all of them will lose their MH status. MHs are held to much higher standards of conduct in order to keep the designation they have worked hard for. I'm unsure what happened on this specific "hunt", but it's quite possible that this group was called in to cull several animals at the request of the landowner or because a bio saw the need to thin the herd in that specific place. There's not enough information here to make a judgement just yet.
The MH program provides a minimum of 16,000 hours of volunteer conservation work each year - minimum; that's if each MH only does what's required. At $10/hr, that saves conservation resources a minimum of $160,000.00 a year. I've personally never done less than 20 hours and I'm not alone. I suggest that our wildlife and budding young hunters would suffer greatly as a result of eliminating this program. Are there a$$hats out there who abuse the program? Yes, of course there are and the WDFW is doing their best to identify and remove those types from the program. Are there regular hunters out there who are unethical and shed a bad light on hunting? I would guarantee there are far more than in the MH ranks. Does that mean we should eliminate hunting altogether? What do you think? Before you decide to eliminate a program which provides much to conservation and our wildlife, I suggest you should definitely learn more about its benefits to our hunting community and wildlife. Closing the program would be tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face, IMHO.
Well stated.
To extend the thought, should we eliminate the entire hunting season because some folks break the rules or act unethically? Perhaps we should eliminate all Elk hunting after what happened on Hwy 20 back in 2009 due to a special Archery season?
http://www.heraldnet.com/news/elk-hunt-atrocity-in-concrete-farmers-field-closes-season-early/
Or after the Elk "massacre" that occurred this year, perhaps we should eliminate rifle hunting?
If the folks in NB acted out of line, or unethically, or illegally they should have their MH permit removed, and should be fined accordingly. But hearing only one side of the story and ordering an execution without proper (i.e. non-internet) due process is not right.
Post by: lokidog on December 14, 2016, 08:26:07 AM
I put in 60-100 hours of service teaching hunter education classes each year and another 16 hours repairing fences knocked down by elk.I wonder if your last sentence is part of the problem? Maybe many of these guys see this as their only opportunity to put meat in the freezer and take less than optimal shots once the shooting begins and there are multiple shooters.I've never liked the MH program since I first heard it proposed. It sets up a two tier class of people among hunters, a recipe for tensions and ready-made for divide and conquer anti-hunters. Master Hunter strikes me as a pseudo elitist designation which IMO appeals to the kind of person who likes to join clubs, of which I am not one. But I'm probably in the minority.
The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that.
Two tier is actually what you have. The WDFW wanted a group of hunters that could work as ambassadors of hunting and interact with the private landowners to build a positive image of hunters. The goal was to paint hunters in a better light and hopefully open up more private land for all hunters to access.
Is it working to do that? In many cases yes. However these bad ones really put a black on the program.
One other thing that the program does and I have witnessed personally is to change the habits of the elk. I have seen the impact of these "hunts" on the elk in 3911. I used to see 300-400 elk in the farmers fields in my area and since the hunts have been going on the elk have moved to ground that doesn't result in conflict with private land owners. That's a good thing for everyone. The point of these hunts isn't to give master hunters the opportunity to harvest more elk the point is to haze the elk and make them change their habits. The side benefit is MH's have the opportunity to harvest elk. Now that the hazing is working there is not as much opportunity to harvest an elk.
The trespassing issue aside, it seems that ethical/accurate shot placement is a big complaint in these group shoots.
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 08:34:37 AM
I put in 60-100 hours of service teaching hunter education classes each year and another 16 hours repairing fences knocked down by elk.I wonder if your last sentence is part of the problem? Maybe many of these guys see this as their only opportunity to put meat in the freezer and take less than optimal shots once the shooting begins and there are multiple shooters.I've never liked the MH program since I first heard it proposed. It sets up a two tier class of people among hunters, a recipe for tensions and ready-made for divide and conquer anti-hunters. Master Hunter strikes me as a pseudo elitist designation which IMO appeals to the kind of person who likes to join clubs, of which I am not one. But I'm probably in the minority.
The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that.
Two tier is actually what you have. The WDFW wanted a group of hunters that could work as ambassadors of hunting and interact with the private landowners to build a positive image of hunters. The goal was to paint hunters in a better light and hopefully open up more private land for all hunters to access.
Is it working to do that? In many cases yes. However these bad ones really put a black on the program.
One other thing that the program does and I have witnessed personally is to change the habits of the elk. I have seen the impact of these "hunts" on the elk in 3911. I used to see 300-400 elk in the farmers fields in my area and since the hunts have been going on the elk have moved to ground that doesn't result in conflict with private land owners. That's a good thing for everyone. The point of these hunts isn't to give master hunters the opportunity to harvest more elk the point is to haze the elk and make them change their habits. The side benefit is MH's have the opportunity to harvest elk. Now that the hazing is working there is not as much opportunity to harvest an elk.
The trespassing issue aside, it seems that ethical/accurate shot placement is a big complaint in these group shoots.
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
Again Loki, there are going to be bad apples in every group of hunters. I will say that something required of MHs and not of the general licensed hunting population is a minimum shooting proficiency. A MH must qualify with a minimum proficiency in at least one of I believe five different firearms (bow, rifle, shotgun w/slug, ML, crossbow). Some choose to qualify in all 5. This is definitely an effort to enlist people who have the ability to take better shots. In addition, there's a huge amount of material covering ethics and hunter safety. But, this isn't going to weed out bad apples. It's only going to do what the program can to eliminate as many of them as possible.
Post by: boneaddict on December 14, 2016, 08:36:31 AM
Post by: boneaddict on December 14, 2016, 08:40:29 AM
Post by: Duckhunter14 on December 14, 2016, 08:43:28 AM
I began the process of completing my Master Hunter Certification some time back; but decided I didn't want to be associated with a group that has developed such an awful reputation.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 08:45:05 AM
Its unfortunate that members of a group that is supposed to be setting the standard for ethical and moral hunting practices and building a better relationship with landowners has members committing acts like this. Unfortunately I have watched the exact same behavior on multiple occasions in the area that I hunt. It appears that people are only getting into the Master Hunter program for more opportunity, not to be a steward and a voice for all sportsman in the state. I know there are people in the program who exude that behavior. But unfortunately from all the Master Hunters I have run into; their attitude has been that they are better, they are elite, and they have the "right" to go hunt wherever they want. As if they are somehow blessed by the Fish & Game to do their deeds.
I began the process of completing my Master Hunter Certification some time back; but decided I didn't want to be associated with a group that has developed such an awful reputation.
Your and wildlife's loss. Most are great people.
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2016, 08:48:57 AM
Over the years the 3911 boundaries have shrunk, the season has been shortened several times, and additional restrictions have been placed on hunters such as a requirement to purchase a second elk tag during the first half of the season.
Most of the land in 3911 is private. A significant amount of public land was eliminated when the boundaries were reduced. There are a few parcels of public land (primarily DNR) remaining, and these tend to get hit pretty hard.
Because 3911 is a general season open to all Master Hunters (with Eastside licenses), and because the areas that are huntable without permission are small, this does tend to create a situation where poor behavior is more likely to occur.
There is no question that some Master Hunters have acted both illegally and contrary to good ethics in the 3911 area. There is a zero tolerance policy for Master Hunters. Those who have acted illegally and appropriately charged are no longer Master Hunters. Those who are not charged, and those who display poor ethical behavior may still be in the program.
I know many Master Hunters, and with few exceptions believe each of them to be ethical, competent hunters. It is unfortunate that in any group, there are some bad apples that can taint the reputation of everyone in the group.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 08:49:19 AM
A lot of these arguements seem to be comparative to what some of you claim are issues with tribal hunting. Many of you that are master hunters seem to react the same way that tribal hunters do when they defend their rights. The other funny thing that I've noticed is that instead of the race card, many pull, we are fighting amongst each other thus going to,end hunting card.
All due respect (and I have quite a bit for you), I'm surprised at your comment, Doug, and the comparison is completely bogus. This is nothing like tribal hunting and the program is about far more than killing animals. In addition, the use of the phrase "tribal hunting" here paints with a wide brush. There are many tribal hunters who don't abuse their rights. Many are valued members of this site.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 08:50:10 AM
I believe a little self inspection and cleaning up amongst ourselves might be a good thing. I know tribal guys that exercise their rights and are very respectful and honorable. I assume there are MAster Hunters that are the same. I don't really like the tier system in either case, but that's neither here or there. Maybe a little more accountability in either situation could go a long ways. After all, all of us are "hunters" to the non hunting world, and most of us all want a full freezer in our futures.
A great majority of us. Thanks Doug.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 08:58:19 AM
PMan
Post by: boneaddict on December 14, 2016, 09:03:04 AM
Personally I've had equal exposure to the good and the bad. I'm not really swayed either way.
Post by: boneaddict on December 14, 2016, 09:07:42 AM
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on December 14, 2016, 09:09:03 AM
Post by: boneaddict on December 14, 2016, 09:11:57 AM
Post by: ryanj on December 14, 2016, 09:16:14 AM
Post by: JDHasty on December 14, 2016, 09:32:32 AM
I put in 60-100 hours of service teaching hunter education classes each year and another 16 hours repairing fences knocked down by elk.I wonder if your last sentence is part of the problem? Maybe many of these guys see this as their only opportunity to put meat in the freezer and take less than optimal shots once the shooting begins and there are multiple shooters.I've never liked the MH program since I first heard it proposed. It sets up a two tier class of people among hunters, a recipe for tensions and ready-made for divide and conquer anti-hunters. Master Hunter strikes me as a pseudo elitist designation which IMO appeals to the kind of person who likes to join clubs, of which I am not one. But I'm probably in the minority.
The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that.
Two tier is actually what you have. The WDFW wanted a group of hunters that could work as ambassadors of hunting and interact with the private landowners to build a positive image of hunters. The goal was to paint hunters in a better light and hopefully open up more private land for all hunters to access.
Is it working to do that? In many cases yes. However these bad ones really put a black on the program.
One other thing that the program does and I have witnessed personally is to change the habits of the elk. I have seen the impact of these "hunts" on the elk in 3911. I used to see 300-400 elk in the farmers fields in my area and since the hunts have been going on the elk have moved to ground that doesn't result in conflict with private land owners. That's a good thing for everyone. The point of these hunts isn't to give master hunters the opportunity to harvest more elk the point is to haze the elk and make them change their habits. The side benefit is MH's have the opportunity to harvest elk. Now that the hazing is working there is not as much opportunity to harvest an elk.
The trespassing issue aside, it seems that ethical/accurate shot placement is a big complaint in these group shoots.
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
Again Loki, there are going to be bad apples in every group of hunters. I will say that something required of MHs and not of the general licensed hunting population is a minimum shooting proficiency. A MH must qualify with a minimum proficiency in at least one of I believe five different firearms (bow, rifle, shotgun w/slug, ML, crossbow). Some choose to qualify in all 5. This is definitely an effort to enlist people who have the ability to take better shots. In addition, there's a huge amount of material covering ethics and hunter safety. But, this isn't going to weed out bad apples. It's only going to do what the program can to eliminate as many of them as possible.
There are seven, you left out handgun & shotgun wing shooting. The bottom line is that anyone involved in this, if what is being said re: trespass and/or wounding and/or safety violations is validated, will be gone from the program, and will not be qualified to reenter it. If they did any of the above then they should be reported and if they actually did what is alleged they will be removed from the program permanently.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 09:52:11 AM
No,need to bow out. I'm glad you are proud of the program. You and Bob highlight what the program stands for. That's important.
Personally I've had equal exposure to the good and the bad. I'm not really swayed either way.
I'm only bowing out because I've had my say and I've offered information that other people may not have been previously known. At this point, people know exactly where I stand and there's no reason to continue repeating myself. I just get worked up and other people get worked up and I think anyone is rarely ever convinced of joining someone else's opposing opinions in these threads. It's one of the reasons I got out of the Off-Topics board - too many bad feelings and it sets the mood for the day.
Post by: Special T on December 14, 2016, 09:58:12 AM
Post by: huntingfool7 on December 14, 2016, 10:06:58 AM
Additionally there is a 2 tier list within the MH group. The A team has great reviews and are the embasador for the program and those names are talked about.
First I've heard of an "A team" list and a second lower class in the MH program. Is that an actual list at the WDFW?
Post by: jackelope on December 14, 2016, 10:59:50 AM
Additionally there is a 2 tier list within the MH group. The A team has great reviews and are the embasador for the program and those names are talked about.
First I've heard of an "A team" list and a second lower class in the MH program. Is that an actual list at the WDFW?
I agree. You're saying there are literally 2 different tier groups of MHer's in the program?
It sounds like you're saying there is a group of good ones and a group of not so good ones?
Is there a source for this info?
Post by: canyelk48 on December 14, 2016, 11:31:26 AM
If this was a group of MHs, then there was a hunt coordinator. If they were hunting on private land without permission, all of them will lose their MH status. MHs are held to much higher standards of conduct in order to keep the designation they have worked hard for. I'm unsure what happened on this specific "hunt", but it's quite possible that this group was called in to cull several animals at the request of the landowner or because a bio saw the need to thin the herd in that specific place. There's not enough information here to make a judgement just yet.
The MH program provides a minimum of 16,000 hours of volunteer conservation work each year - minimum; that's if each MH only does what's required. At $10/hr, that saves conservation resources a minimum of $160,000.00 a year. I've personally never done less than 20 hours and I'm not alone. I suggest that our wildlife and budding young hunters would suffer greatly as a result of eliminating this program. Are there a$$hats out there who abuse the program? Yes, of course there are and the WDFW is doing their best to identify and remove those types from the program. Are there regular hunters out there who are unethical and shed a bad light on hunting? I would guarantee there are far more than in the MH ranks. Does that mean we should eliminate hunting altogether? What do you think? Before you decide to eliminate a program which provides much to conservation and our wildlife, I suggest you should definitely learn more about its benefits to our hunting community and wildlife. Closing the program would be tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face, IMHO.
Highly doubtful that a landowner requested any culling from this herd. For one thing, the herd was mainly hanging around in the Wind Farm area off of Hwy 97; no farms or cattle ranches until they get across the highway into the valley. These 'hunters" drove up a Private Road, clearly marked Private Road, and No Hunting, parked their trucks directly in front of two homes less than 20 yards away and opened fire on the herd in the direction of another property with horses and a few cattle. The property the elk were on consisted of maybe 10 acres of grass and burned sage. When they claimed they had permission from the property owner that "owned the Mexican Restaurant in town", the property owner with the horses told me that's a lie because his brother owns the restaurant and doesn't even own the property that the elk were shot on. The hunters also told me that they'd been "chasing" this herd for 3 days. Clearly, once they saw that the herd had settled on a piece of land off of the private road, they bailed out of their trucks and shot into the herd. Five hunters, 3 elk down and several others wounded and ran/limped off back onto the Wind Farm property. Also, I might add, that no one took to the trails of the wounded elk.
Post by: JDHasty on December 14, 2016, 11:33:58 AM
If this was a group of MHs, then there was a hunt coordinator. If they were hunting on private land without permission, all of them will lose their MH status. MHs are held to much higher standards of conduct in order to keep the designation they have worked hard for. I'm unsure what happened on this specific "hunt", but it's quite possible that this group was called in to cull several animals at the request of the landowner or because a bio saw the need to thin the herd in that specific place. There's not enough information here to make a judgement just yet.
The MH program provides a minimum of 16,000 hours of volunteer conservation work each year - minimum; that's if each MH only does what's required. At $10/hr, that saves conservation resources a minimum of $160,000.00 a year. I've personally never done less than 20 hours and I'm not alone. I suggest that our wildlife and budding young hunters would suffer greatly as a result of eliminating this program. Are there a$$hats out there who abuse the program? Yes, of course there are and the WDFW is doing their best to identify and remove those types from the program. Are there regular hunters out there who are unethical and shed a bad light on hunting? I would guarantee there are far more than in the MH ranks. Does that mean we should eliminate hunting altogether? What do you think? Before you decide to eliminate a program which provides much to conservation and our wildlife, I suggest you should definitely learn more about its benefits to our hunting community and wildlife. Closing the program would be tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face, IMHO.
Highly doubtful that a landowner requested any culling from this herd. For one thing, the herd was mainly hanging around in the Wind Farm area off of Hwy 97; no farms or cattle ranches until they get across the highway into the valley. These 'hunters" drove up a Private Road, clearly marked Private Road, and No Hunting, parked their trucks directly in front of two homes less than 20 yards away and opened fire on the herd in the direction of another property with horses and a few cattle. The property the elk were on consisted of maybe 10 acres of grass and burned sage. When they claimed they had permission from the property owner that "owned the Mexican Restaurant in town", the property owner with the horses told me that's a lie because his brother owns the restaurant and doesn't even own the property that the elk were shot on. The hunters also told me that they'd been "chasing" this herd for 3 days. Clearly, once they saw that the herd had settled on a piece of land off of the private road, they bailed out of their trucks and shot into the herd. Five hunters, 3 elk down and several others wounded and ran/limped off back onto the Wind Farm property.
If it went down as you say it is pretty cut and dry what will happen. There will be five individuals who are no longer in the program.
Post by: lokidog on December 14, 2016, 12:12:00 PM
I understand that, however, it does seem that "gut shot", wounded,"hit in the leg" are complaints heard frequently with these kind of group hunts whereas one rarely hears of this regarding individual MH's. Maybe, I'm not understanding these hunts, are they all conducted in this group kind of setting?I put in 60-100 hours of service teaching hunter education classes each year and another 16 hours repairing fences knocked down by elk.I wonder if your last sentence is part of the problem? Maybe many of these guys see this as their only opportunity to put meat in the freezer and take less than optimal shots once the shooting begins and there are multiple shooters.I've never liked the MH program since I first heard it proposed. It sets up a two tier class of people among hunters, a recipe for tensions and ready-made for divide and conquer anti-hunters. Master Hunter strikes me as a pseudo elitist designation which IMO appeals to the kind of person who likes to join clubs, of which I am not one. But I'm probably in the minority.
The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that.
Two tier is actually what you have. The WDFW wanted a group of hunters that could work as ambassadors of hunting and interact with the private landowners to build a positive image of hunters. The goal was to paint hunters in a better light and hopefully open up more private land for all hunters to access.
Is it working to do that? In many cases yes. However these bad ones really put a black on the program.
One other thing that the program does and I have witnessed personally is to change the habits of the elk. I have seen the impact of these "hunts" on the elk in 3911. I used to see 300-400 elk in the farmers fields in my area and since the hunts have been going on the elk have moved to ground that doesn't result in conflict with private land owners. That's a good thing for everyone. The point of these hunts isn't to give master hunters the opportunity to harvest more elk the point is to haze the elk and make them change their habits. The side benefit is MH's have the opportunity to harvest elk. Now that the hazing is working there is not as much opportunity to harvest an elk.
The trespassing issue aside, it seems that ethical/accurate shot placement is a big complaint in these group shoots.
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Again Loki, there are going to be bad apples in every group of hunters. I will say that something required of MHs and not of the general licensed hunting population is a minimum shooting proficiency. A MH must qualify with a minimum proficiency in at least one of I believe five different firearms (bow, rifle, shotgun w/slug, ML, crossbow). Some choose to qualify in all 5. This is definitely an effort to enlist people who have the ability to take better shots. In addition, there's a huge amount of material covering ethics and hunter safety. But, this isn't going to weed out bad apples. It's only going to do what the program can to eliminate as many of them as possible.
Some of the worst behavior I have seen from hunters is not with an individual trying to fill a tag, it is with groups that seem to feel a need to compete or just get into a shooting frenzy when there are more animals to try to shoot than just one.
If this is the case with these group master hunts, maybe the number of shooters in one location needs to be addressed.
I have not witnessed any master hunts so am just going off of what I read here. I am sure, as is usually the case, most MH's are conscientious hunters and ambassadors of hunting.
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Post by: MADMAX on December 14, 2016, 12:13:03 PM
went to renew and was told I had to retake the entire course because I was over 3 months expired
not something I was closely every -6 years ( I think ) -paying regular attention to for my expiration date.
My bad
dont miss it
:twocents:
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2016, 12:15:42 PM
They will still be just as unethical, if not more so without a "zero tolerance" policy. Their marksmanship will be just as poor.
When they cripple an animal, miss, trespass, or violate any other legal or ethical code we most likely will never know.
Post by: Rainier10 on December 14, 2016, 12:30:17 PM
If the facts are accurate, the individuals that performed this way should be removed from the MH program.:yeah:
They will still be just as unethical, if not more so without a "zero tolerance" policy. Their marksmanship will be just as poor.
When they cripple an animal, miss, trespass, or violate any other legal or ethical code we most likely will never know.
I think if it played out how it is described they will be removed.
And you are definitely correct that they will continue with their actions and instead of ending up in a "disgusted with MH" thread they will be in a "slob road hunters" or "slob rifle hunters" thread. They may even make friends with a native and end up in a "native poaching" thread.
Bad apples are bad apples and they end up in every user group. Well except for the group of perfect hunters that Bob is still looking for. :chuckle: They are out there Bob, I am sure of it.
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2016, 12:54:39 PM
Bad apples are bad apples and they end up in every user group. Well except for the group of perfect hunters that Bob is still looking for. :chuckle: They are out there Bob, I am sure of it.I've reviewed quite a few applications, but after pouring over social media and other hunting sites I usually find something to disqualify them: missing hunter orange in a success photo, killing an animal with the wrong bullet, associating with members of certain organizations deemed unfit, and even a few who were temporarily banned from Hunt WA for trying to bypass the censor filter.
Post by: Special T on December 14, 2016, 01:12:59 PM
No official list. Just people with a good reputation that get on the list each year that would be requested participants if there was a mechanism for doing so.Additionally there is a 2 tier list within the MH group. The A team has great reviews and are the embasador for the program and those names are talked about.
First I've heard of an "A team" list and a second lower class in the MH program. Is that an actual list at the WDFW?
Post by: Timberstalker on December 14, 2016, 01:14:05 PM
Bad apples are bad apples and they end up in every user group. Well except for the group of perfect hunters that Bob is still looking for. :chuckle: They are out there Bob, I am sure of it.I've reviewed quite a few applications, but after pouring over social media and other hunting sites I usually find something to disqualify them: missing hunter orange in a success photo, killing an animal with the wrong bullet, associating with members of certain organizations deemed unfit, and even a few who were temporarily banned from Hunt WA for trying to bypass the censor filter.
:chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: samsqatch on December 14, 2016, 01:39:03 PM
Post by: Widgeondeke on December 14, 2016, 01:42:47 PM
I've reviewed quite a few applications, but after pouring over social media and other hunting sites I usually find something to disqualify them: missing hunter orange in a success photo, killing an animal with the wrong bullet, associating with members of certain organizations deemed unfit, and even a few who were temporarily banned from Hunt WA for trying to bypass the censor filter.
[/quote]
Seriously? you are deemed unfit to be a MH because you wanted to not have hunter orange in a pic? :yike: That is ridiculous :twocents: That in itself would discourage me from the elitist group
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 01:48:12 PM
Post by: Widgeondeke on December 14, 2016, 02:02:07 PM
Lol widgeon, you not that good with satire, huh?
You never know with Bob33 :chuckle:
Many on here are guilty by association, so...... :dunno:
an alleged trespasser was given a ticket for no hunter orange in a picture, so.... :dunno:
the bullet was the giveaway to me. now if he has said wrong caliber that'd be an entire different thread bashing :bash:
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2016, 02:06:06 PM
:fishin:Lol widgeon, you not that good with satire, huh?
You never know with Bob33 :chuckle:
Many on here are guilty by association, so...... :dunno:
an alleged trespasser was given a ticket for no hunter orange in a picture, so.... :dunno:
the bullet was the giveaway to me. now if he has said wrong caliber that'd be an entire different thread bashing :bash:
Sorry about that. I was kidding. :tup:
Post by: WSU on December 14, 2016, 03:07:22 PM
Post by: Okanagan on December 14, 2016, 03:51:07 PM
I've also been surprised by the lack of experience many have.
You must be mistaken. These are MASTER HUNTERS.
The title alone sets up some great humor!
Post by: WSU on December 14, 2016, 03:58:50 PM
I've also been surprised by the lack of experience many have.
You must be mistaken. These are MASTER HUNTERS.
The title alone sets up some great humor!
Not that it matters. Some of the biggest slobs have been hunting their entire life. I don't think experience is necessarily required for damage hunts and volunteering.
Post by: Special T on December 14, 2016, 04:49:28 PM
Post by: Odell on December 14, 2016, 05:18:32 PM
I've also been surprised by the lack of experience many have.
You must be mistaken. These are MASTER HUNTERS.
The title alone sets up some great humor!
I am convinced the title is responsible for most of the animosity toward it by other hunters. If they were called 'volunteer conservationists' or something it wouldn't threaten the fragile ego of so many who believe themselves to be better hunters but don't want to be in the program.
The reality is its an open program to anyone willing to put in the work. It doesn't have anything to do with your level of hunting skill. Also, many come into the program with a variety of backgrounds. I have 25 years working dogs and hunting ducks but know almost nothing about hunting elk.
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Post by: JDHasty on December 14, 2016, 06:06:17 PM
Post by: jay.sharkbait on December 14, 2016, 06:10:00 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate. I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth.
How about some facts instead of half baked opinions like most of your other posts?
Post by: Okanagan on December 14, 2016, 06:28:51 PM
Post by: Odell on December 14, 2016, 06:38:11 PM
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Post by: EyeTooth on December 14, 2016, 07:01:19 PM
Post by: mountainman on December 14, 2016, 07:41:12 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate. I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth.sure this is true for some, but in a lesser degree..
Post by: JDHasty on December 14, 2016, 08:12:43 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate. I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth.
How about some facts instead of half baked opinions like most of your other posts?
Oh sorry, did that hit a little close to home?
Post by: jay.sharkbait on December 14, 2016, 08:18:52 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate. I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth.
How about some facts instead of half baked opinions like most of your other posts?
Oh sorry, did that hit a little close to home?
Oh, wow you got me there. I'll confess, I can't pass the marksmanship test.
Post by: JDHasty on December 14, 2016, 08:22:05 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate. I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth.
How about some facts instead of half baked opinions like most of your other posts?
Oh sorry, did that hit a little close to home?
Oh, wow you got me there. I'll confess, I can't pass the marksmanship test.
Yea, I doubt there is going to be a certification standard for volley fire.
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2016, 08:29:22 PM
Was mud slinging one of the methods you qualified with to be a Master Hunter?Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate. I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth.
How about some facts instead of half baked opinions like most of your other posts?
Oh sorry, did that hit a little close to home?
Oh, wow you got me there. I'll confess, I can't pass the marksmanship test.
Yea, I doubt there is going to be a certification standard for volley fire.
Post by: jay.sharkbait on December 14, 2016, 08:38:25 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate. I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth.
How about some facts instead of half baked opinions like most of your other posts?
Oh sorry, did that hit a little close to home?
Oh, wow you got me there. I'll confess, I can't pass the marksmanship test.
Yea, I doubt there is going to be a certification standard for volley fire.
I'm pretty good with the crew served stuff. :chuckle:
Post by: Dan-o on December 14, 2016, 09:11:51 PM
1. If these guys were really Master Hunters, and if they did anything illegal in the course of their hunt, they can be removed from the program (provisionally) BEFORE they are convicted. This changed several years ago. The WDFW administrators can remove them right away in the face of illegal activity (even alleged). I hope you called a warden or police soon enough to get them (Master Hunters or not).
2. I know that WDFW has no problem being very aggressive in removing MH's who break the rules. No 2nd chances.
3. I've been in the program for about 13 years now...... and I love it. Because I've met some AWESOME people, including farmers, land owner, other hunters.
4. I've removed derelict wire fence, fixed other fence, cleaned up after other slob hunters, hazed elk out of irrigated crops, cleaned boat ramp areas, and worked at a hatchery as part of my MH service. And I'vemet some great landowners.
5. Good night.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 14, 2016, 09:50:23 PM
Bad apples are bad apples and they end up in every user group. Well except for the group of perfect hunters that Bob is still looking for. :chuckle: They are out there Bob, I am sure of it.I've reviewed quite a few applications, but after pouring over social media and other hunting sites I usually find something to disqualify them: missing hunter orange in a success photo, killing an animal with the wrong bullet, associating with members of certain organizations deemed unfit, and even a few who were temporarily banned from Hunt WA for trying to bypass the censor filter.
You left out not wearing the correct amount of camo and face paint.
Post by: JDHasty on December 15, 2016, 06:01:14 AM
A couple thoughts:
1. If these guys were really Master Hunters, and if they did anything illegal in the course of their hunt, they can be removed from the program (provisionally) BEFORE they are convicted. This changed several years ago. The WDFW administrators can remove them right away in the face of illegal activity (even alleged). I hope you called a warden or police soon enough to get them (Master Hunters or not).
2. I know that WDFW has no problem being very aggressive in removing MH's who break the rules. No 2nd chances.
3. I've been in the program for about 13 years now...... and I love it. Because I've met some AWESOME people, including farmers, land owner, other hunters.
4. I've removed derelict wire fence, fixed other fence, cleaned up after other slob hunters, hazed elk out of irrigated crops, cleaned boat ramp areas, and worked at a hatchery as part of my MH service. And I'vemet some great landowners.
5. Good night.
The program is what you make of it. There are people who are there strictly to take advantage of the program but they are not indicative of the participants on the whole.
Post by: tgomez on December 15, 2016, 06:37:07 AM
Post by: safehunter on December 15, 2016, 08:07:44 AM
Today I looked out my window to see a herd of elk standing near my access road, so decided to drive down to the mailbox and take some photos. Much to my dismay, as I round the curve and started snapping photos, I notice one cow limping away and then I see several rigs parked on a side road and people wearing hunter orange. Drove down and see that they all had rifles and had shot the hell out of the herd. At least 3 cows in sight down, and several others wounded and trying to keep up with the herd. When I told them they were on private property (not mine, however), they claimed to have verbal permission (though highly unlikely since the land owner doesn't even live here) and that they were all Master Hunters. I was so disgusted by the way these so called hunters just shot into the herd, including in the direction of nearby horses and livestock, that I gave them a piece of my mind and told them that in no way are they real hunters and just give hunters a bad name by actions such as theirs. I took photographs and called Fish and Game and waited for them to show. The officers investigated and another land owner also reported to them about coming upon 2 gut piles and a dead elk the other day behind his property. Don't know what the outcome of these two separate incidents will be, but hopefully if nothing else, these idiots will think twice about shooting up a herd of elk in an area sounded by homes and livestock. Nothing more than legalized poaching IMO and no better than the other incident with Natives at Oak Creek that is currently stirring up a lot of talk on this site. To these "Master Hunters", way to go, you should be proud of your great hunt.I understand your dismay, but sounds like you are the judge, jury and executioner and without a trial?
!) Could they have been told by someone( supposed land owner) that they could hunt there?
2) Did you witness them shoot in the direction of livestock or just your thought?
3) If the LEO investigated why didn't they take their MH permits on the spot?
4) Gut piles and a dead elk behind a land owners property, means what? Did these guys leave a dead elk and take two? Public land? Tribal hunters? Poachers? Other MH's?
I'm not agreeing with what had transpired, but if it all went down as your reporting. Then LEO should have pulled their cards and issued citations!
I have been in the program for quite awhile and very proud to be! I also know many who are and would have avoided the situation that you are describing!
Giving Back is not what is described here! My :twocents: on your post
Post by: Odell on December 15, 2016, 11:20:01 AM
"Master hunters" LMAO😂 :chuckle:
There it is... primarily a name problem.
Post by: wheels on December 16, 2016, 03:43:19 PM
Post by: Bob33 on December 16, 2016, 04:05:02 PM
At least it's better than what the fishermen got."Master hunters" LMAO😂 :chuckle:
There it is... primarily a name problem.
Post by: splitshot on December 16, 2016, 04:05:26 PM
Post by: MR5x5 on December 17, 2016, 11:29:33 AM
There is not one charge in this thread leveled against MH's that can't be leveled against actors in the general season. I would assume closing down the general because someone found a knucklehead would not be agreeable to us all. (But I bet the anti-hunters would love it!)
If it the MH program is not for you, don't get involved. Let it go... It has no impact on you otherwise.
Enjoy the Holidays!
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on December 17, 2016, 11:41:40 AM
Not a Master Hunter here, but I get it. It's the state tying to maintain relations with people impacted by wildlife damage in various forms in an effort to maximize opportunities for the rest of the hinting community. Perfect? No. Perfection is typically a ridiculously high bar to measure something by. Go find the latest Bugle and read the article on "Shoulder Hunts". Similar type programs being tried in other states.
There is not one charge in this thread leveled against MH's that can't be leveled against actors in the general season. I would assume closing down the general because someone found a knucklehead would not be agreeable to us all. (But I bet the anti-hunters would love it!)
If it the MH program is not for you, don't get involved. Let it go... It has no impact on you otherwise.
Enjoy the Holidays!
It cannot not impact non-Master Hunters.
Simply stated, the uniformed public simply sees (or hears/reads about) a hunter acting in an illegal or unethical or whatever bad moniker you want to place on the behavior, and by default, gets lumped onto all hunters in general.
The Master Hunters make an agreement to be held to a higher standard voluntarily, knowing full well the results if they violate that agreement.
Post by: MR5x5 on December 17, 2016, 12:39:14 PM
So looking at what the MH program is trying to do in balance with what would generally seem to be positive results, you'd advise throwing out the entire program for the acts of a few? I don't believe it. Because if you did you'd be advocated the elimination of hunting general due to the acts of a few.
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on December 18, 2016, 12:19:45 PM
Agreed. Hunting missteps, regardless of source, reflect badly on hunting in general, and this incident is no exception. I have no data to back it, but I would assert that as a population, the MH hunter program has a higher ethical standard than the general hunting population simply because it takes additional effort to achieve the cert. Are all MHs of high ethical standard? Of course not. Are all general season hunters of low ethical standard? Of course not.
So looking at what the MH program is trying to do in balance with what would generally seem to be positive results, you'd advise throwing out the entire program for the acts of a few? I don't believe it. Because if you did you'd be advocated the elimination of hunting general due to the acts of a few.
If this was directed to me, no. Individual actions deserve individual responses and consequences.
I was just rebutting your comment that the incident does not effect other hunters.
Post by: JDHasty on December 18, 2016, 03:30:11 PM
Post by: Rob on December 18, 2016, 08:29:37 PM
A house divided...
So disappointing.
Post by: Chukarhead on December 29, 2016, 10:41:44 AM
At least it's better than what the fishermen got."Master hunters" LMAO😂 :chuckle:
There it is... primarily a name problem.
Ah, that was worth reading through all of this. Thanks! :tup: :chuckle: