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Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: canyelk48 on December 13, 2016, 05:16:24 PM


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Title: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: canyelk48 on December 13, 2016, 05:16:24 PM
Today I looked out my window to see a herd of elk standing near my access road, so decided to drive down to the mailbox and take some photos.  Much to my dismay, as I round the curve and started snapping photos, I notice one cow limping away and then I see several rigs parked on a side road and people wearing hunter orange.  Drove down and see that they all had rifles and had shot the hell out of the herd.  At least 3 cows in sight down, and several others wounded and trying to keep up with the herd.  When I told them they were on private property (not mine, however), they claimed to have verbal permission (though highly unlikely since the land owner doesn't even live here) and that they were all Master Hunters.  I was so disgusted by the way these so called hunters just shot into the herd, including in the direction of nearby horses and livestock, that I gave them a piece of my mind and told them that in no way are they real hunters and just give hunters a bad name by actions such as theirs.  I took photographs and called Fish and Game and waited for them to show.  The officers investigated and another land owner also reported to them about coming upon 2 gut piles and a dead elk the other day behind his property.  Don't know what the outcome of these two separate incidents will be, but hopefully if nothing else, these idiots will think twice about shooting up a herd of elk in an area sounded by homes and livestock.  Nothing more than legalized poaching IMO and no better than the other incident with Natives at Oak Creek that is currently stirring up a lot of talk on this site.  To these "Master Hunters", way to go, you should be proud of your great hunt.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 13, 2016, 05:18:33 PM
 :hunt2: :yike:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Buzz2401 on December 13, 2016, 05:38:34 PM
Ya I think the program is a joke, they need to get rid of it.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Bill W on December 13, 2016, 05:39:34 PM
If you didn't believe they had permission to hunt the land why then did you believe them when they said they were "master hunters".

I'm not saying they had permission, nor that they were master hunters.  Just wondered why you believed one statement and not the other.  I would think both were BS.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Buzz2401 on December 13, 2016, 05:45:35 PM
Maybe they were natives disguised as Master Hunters.  lol
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: boneaddict on December 13, 2016, 05:49:45 PM
I've never liked this program, though I have several friends that do well by it.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: MtnMuley on December 13, 2016, 05:53:09 PM
The intentions of this program are great. The results of this program often aren't. Several good examples are always trumped by a few culls. :twocents:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: jackelope on December 13, 2016, 05:55:28 PM
The intentions of this program are great. The results of this program often aren't. Several good examples are always trumped by a few culls. :twocents:

That's a real good way of putting it.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Bob33 on December 13, 2016, 05:57:57 PM
I'm holding out to join a group with only perfect hunters.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: jackelope on December 13, 2016, 05:58:55 PM
That's a whole other level, Bob.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Rainier10 on December 13, 2016, 06:00:00 PM
The intentions of this program are great. The results of this program often aren't. Several good examples are always trumped by a few culls. :twocents:
:yeah: :yeah:
Good on the OP for reporting it.  They should be removed from the program for this type of activity.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: JBar on December 13, 2016, 06:00:29 PM
  :yeah:  :bash: Again another black eye for hunters!! We're just batting 1000 this week.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: BreezyBear on December 13, 2016, 06:09:49 PM
Time to do away with the Master Hunter Program  :twocents:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: jay.sharkbait on December 13, 2016, 06:10:42 PM
I thought only dem injuns did this kinda thing?

Did they have any pepshi's in thier cooler?
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Rainier10 on December 13, 2016, 06:11:54 PM
I'm holding out to join a group with only perfect hunters.
So you don't want to hunt with the master hunters, the yakama's, the muckleshoots, the couple from Oregon or Tod Riechert?  What the heck Bob?
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Bob33 on December 13, 2016, 06:13:06 PM
I'm holding out to join a group with only perfect hunters.
So you don't want to hunt with the master hunters, the yakama's, the muckleshoots, the couple from Oregon or Tod Riechert?  What the heck Bob?
It's tough being a lone wolf without perfect hunting companions.  I had one once until I learned he took at shot and killed an animal at too far a distance.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: brew on December 13, 2016, 06:17:28 PM
I'm holding out to join a group with only perfect hunters.
Copy that Bob33...it doesn't matter what group you belong to--be it licensed hunters, "master hunters", natives, boy scouts, law enforcement, foster parents etc, etc.  there will always be a bad element in place in any group...that doesn't mean you shut the whole thing down...you are just cutting a nose off to despite ones face.  these groups are in place to provide a needed service and if they screw up they should be dealt with lawfully--not at the expense of those who are doing it legally...you are not going to curtail someone's illegal activity by bitching about it on these web sites...if your are serious about these offenses introduce legislation that funds more Law Enforcement FTE's....the more people out enforcing the better
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Watimberghost on December 13, 2016, 06:18:17 PM
I'm holding out to join a group with only perfect hunters.
So you don't want to hunt with the master hunters, the yakama's, the muckleshoots, the couple from Oregon or Tod Riechert?  What the heck Bob?
It's tough being a lone wolf without perfect hunting companions.  I had one once until I learned he took at shot and killed an animal at too far a distance.
Unreal... I can't believe you would acquaintance yourself with people like that.  :)
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Rainier10 on December 13, 2016, 06:20:06 PM
I'm holding out to join a group with only perfect hunters.
Copy that Bob33...it doesn't matter what group you belong to--be it licensed hunters, "master hunters", natives, boy scouts, law enforcement, foster parents etc, etc.  there will always be a bad element in place in any group...that doesn't mean you shut the whole thing down...you are just cutting a nose off to despite ones face.  these groups are in place to provide a needed service and if they screw up they should be dealt with lawfully--not at the expense of those who are doing it legally...you are not going to curtail someone's illegal activity by bitching about it on these web sites...if your are serious about these offenses introduce legislation that funds more Law Enforcement FTE's....the more people out enforcing the better
:yeah:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: ghosthunter on December 13, 2016, 06:26:47 PM
Any program, which includes human beings has the potential of bad apples.

This type of behavior is rampant in this state. Regardless of what group you belong too.

Most property owners who are plagued with elk problems really don't care how the job gets done.

These are not hunts. They are killings. The intent is to kill the offending animals and except for bad press the DFW really don't care how it is accomplished.

If it is your fences,crops,pasture or property being destroyed by the game Dept bringing in elk with no end plan to control them, you are looking for any relief. Like in the Skagit Valley.

 :twocents:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: MtnMuley on December 13, 2016, 06:33:52 PM
These "master hunter" stories make me laugh. I know about some stories that have never been posted that'd would blow most minds. I also know of several others that have prime tablefare for their family every year due to this program while helping out a true struggling farmer. No, I'm not a master hunter either.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: jstone on December 13, 2016, 06:50:19 PM
never been a fan of the Master Hunter thing..
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: WALLEYEGUY on December 13, 2016, 07:03:59 PM
The next round of public comments should have a ton of do away with this broke program. Good idea gone bad, oh wait it is run by  :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :twocents:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: baker5150 on December 13, 2016, 07:33:49 PM
These "master hunter" stories make me laugh. I know about some stories that have never been posted that'd would blow most minds. I also know of several others that have prime tablefare for their family every year due to this program while helping out a true struggling farmer. No, I'm not a master hunter either.

This is the issue, you only hear the bad and never the good. 
Too many jump to conclusions based on a few 2nd hand stories and a massive lack of information.
This can be said for a lot of issues now days.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 13, 2016, 07:34:21 PM
If you don't like the areas that the master hunters are allowed to hunt contact the WDFW or the Hunt Master. There's always going to be he said she said stories but unless you prove it and complain to the state its going to fall on deaf ears. The rock throwing just gets old and thus why the hunting community is so divided.  :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Jlittlebear31 on December 13, 2016, 07:57:46 PM
I am new to this forum and have read it a lot more than I have made comments.  As a Master Hunter for the past 12 years I understand the irritation towards the actions of a few morons.  I agree with others that just because of the poor decisions and actions of a few, the rest of us that enjoy and depend on this program should not suffer.

With a wife and four near teenage children I am thankful for my oppurtunity to harvest a cow in the early season.  It is my best oppurtunity to get meat on the table and is helpful for local farms and farmers.  In addition, as an archer, I have never entered the woods for a MH cow hunt while any archery season is occurring.  In exchange, I offer physical labor help to several east side land owners for access.

I do not boast about my success, nor do I make lousy and unethical judgements when I choose to harvest an animal.  The vast majority of MH's (I believe) are ethical, smart, enjoy wildlife and hunting and want to bring a good positive light to our sport.  To hammer the whole program and those who use it positively seems a bit excessive.  I agree with Skyvalhunter, collect license plates, descriptions and take good notes of who is responsible for illegal dangerous actions and report them.  My thoughts.....
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: chukarchaser on December 13, 2016, 08:38:08 PM
This same type of behavior occurs in other units with damage hunts that are not solely MH hunts. I here the Malaga hung is having issues similar to this as well
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 07:23:26 AM
If this was a group of MHs, then there was a hunt coordinator. If they were hunting on private land without permission, all of them will lose their MH status. MHs are held to much higher standards of conduct in order to keep the designation they have worked hard for. I'm unsure what happened on this specific "hunt", but it's quite possible that this group was called in to cull several animals at the request of the landowner or because a bio saw the need to thin the herd in that specific place. There's not enough information here to make a judgement just yet.

The MH program provides a minimum of 16,000 hours of volunteer conservation work each year - minimum; that's if each MH only does what's required. At $10/hr, that saves conservation resources a minimum of $160,000.00 a year. I've personally never done less than 20 hours and I'm not alone. I suggest that our wildlife and budding young hunters would suffer greatly as a result of eliminating this program. Are there a$$hats out there who abuse the program? Yes, of course there are and the WDFW is doing their best to identify and remove those types from the program. Are there regular hunters out there who are unethical and shed a bad light on hunting? I would guarantee there are far more than in the MH ranks. Does that mean we should eliminate hunting altogether? What do you think? Before you decide to eliminate a program which provides much to conservation and our wildlife, I suggest you should definitely learn more about its benefits to our hunting community and wildlife. Closing the program would be tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face, IMHO.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: headshot5 on December 14, 2016, 07:57:20 AM
Quote
Before you decide to eliminate a program which provides much to conservation and our wildlife, I suggest you should definitely learn more about its benefits to our hunting community and wildlife.


Is there somewhere that documents where/what the volunteer hrs of work accomplished?  So the non-MH can get an idea of the benefits provided to our ecosystem.  It might help the non master hunters if we could tangibly see what service MH provide as far as conservation work.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 07:58:39 AM
I believe the requirements are outlined clearly on the master hunter page of the WDFW website.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Okanagan on December 14, 2016, 08:00:29 AM
I've never liked the MH program since I first heard it proposed.  It sets up a two tier class of people among hunters, a recipe for tensions and ready-made for divide and conquer anti-hunters.  Master Hunter strikes me as a pseudo elitist designation which IMO appeals to the kind of person who likes to join clubs, of which I am not one.  But I'm probably in the minority. 

The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that. 

Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Rainier10 on December 14, 2016, 08:10:22 AM
I put in 60-100 hours of service teaching hunter education classes each year and another 16 hours repairing fences knocked down by elk.

I've never liked the MH program since I first heard it proposed.  It sets up a two tier class of people among hunters, a recipe for tensions and ready-made for divide and conquer anti-hunters.  Master Hunter strikes me as a pseudo elitist designation which IMO appeals to the kind of person who likes to join clubs, of which I am not one.  But I'm probably in the minority. 

The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that. 



Two tier is actually what you have.  The WDFW wanted a group of hunters that could work as ambassadors of hunting and interact with the private landowners to build a positive image of hunters.  The goal was to paint hunters in a better light and hopefully open up more private land for all hunters to access.

Is it working to do that?  In many cases yes.  However these bad ones really put a black on the program.

One other thing that the program does and I have witnessed personally is to change the habits of the elk.  I have seen the impact of these "hunts" on the elk in 3911.  I used to see 300-400 elk in the farmers fields in my area and since the hunts have been going on the elk have moved to ground that doesn't result in conflict with private land owners.  That's a good thing for everyone. The point of these hunts isn't to give master hunters the opportunity to harvest more elk the point is to haze the elk and make them change their habits.  The side benefit is MH's have the opportunity to harvest elk.  Now that the hazing is working there is not as much opportunity to harvest an elk.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 08:13:16 AM
I've never liked the MH program since I first heard it proposed.  It sets up a two tier class of people among hunters, a recipe for tensions and ready-made for divide and conquer anti-hunters.  Master Hunter strikes me as a pseudo elitist designation which IMO appeals to the kind of person who likes to join clubs, of which I am not one.  But I'm probably in the minority. 

The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that. 



It could be argued that if you stopped bashing the program, the "divide and conquer" wouldn't be an issue. Just saying.  :dunno: People put in a lot of work to attain and keep their certification and most of the people with whom I've dealt in the program are selfless and in it to help our wildlife. In 6 years, I've been chosen for one tag and never got picked to hunt it. In that time, I've donated a minimum of 150 hours to conservation and hunter education programs. I'll continue to do so regardless of whether or not I get any special tags.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Rob on December 14, 2016, 08:20:38 AM
If this was a group of MHs, then there was a hunt coordinator. If they were hunting on private land without permission, all of them will lose their MH status. MHs are held to much higher standards of conduct in order to keep the designation they have worked hard for. I'm unsure what happened on this specific "hunt", but it's quite possible that this group was called in to cull several animals at the request of the landowner or because a bio saw the need to thin the herd in that specific place. There's not enough information here to make a judgement just yet.

The MH program provides a minimum of 16,000 hours of volunteer conservation work each year - minimum; that's if each MH only does what's required. At $10/hr, that saves conservation resources a minimum of $160,000.00 a year. I've personally never done less than 20 hours and I'm not alone. I suggest that our wildlife and budding young hunters would suffer greatly as a result of eliminating this program. Are there a$$hats out there who abuse the program? Yes, of course there are and the WDFW is doing their best to identify and remove those types from the program. Are there regular hunters out there who are unethical and shed a bad light on hunting? I would guarantee there are far more than in the MH ranks. Does that mean we should eliminate hunting altogether? What do you think? Before you decide to eliminate a program which provides much to conservation and our wildlife, I suggest you should definitely learn more about its benefits to our hunting community and wildlife. Closing the program would be tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face, IMHO.

Well stated.

To extend the thought, should we eliminate the entire hunting season because some folks break the rules or act unethically?  Perhaps we should eliminate all Elk hunting after what happened on Hwy 20 back in 2009 due to a special Archery season?
http://www.heraldnet.com/news/elk-hunt-atrocity-in-concrete-farmers-field-closes-season-early/

Or after the Elk "massacre" that occurred this year, perhaps we should eliminate rifle hunting?

If the folks in NB acted out of line, or unethically, or illegally they should have their MH permit removed, and should be fined accordingly.  But hearing only one side of the story and ordering an execution without proper (i.e. non-internet) due process is not right.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: lokidog on December 14, 2016, 08:26:07 AM
I put in 60-100 hours of service teaching hunter education classes each year and another 16 hours repairing fences knocked down by elk.

I've never liked the MH program since I first heard it proposed.  It sets up a two tier class of people among hunters, a recipe for tensions and ready-made for divide and conquer anti-hunters.  Master Hunter strikes me as a pseudo elitist designation which IMO appeals to the kind of person who likes to join clubs, of which I am not one.  But I'm probably in the minority. 

The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that. 



Two tier is actually what you have.  The WDFW wanted a group of hunters that could work as ambassadors of hunting and interact with the private landowners to build a positive image of hunters.  The goal was to paint hunters in a better light and hopefully open up more private land for all hunters to access.

Is it working to do that?  In many cases yes.  However these bad ones really put a black on the program.

One other thing that the program does and I have witnessed personally is to change the habits of the elk.  I have seen the impact of these "hunts" on the elk in 3911.  I used to see 300-400 elk in the farmers fields in my area and since the hunts have been going on the elk have moved to ground that doesn't result in conflict with private land owners.  That's a good thing for everyone. The point of these hunts isn't to give master hunters the opportunity to harvest more elk the point is to haze the elk and make them change their habits.  The side benefit is MH's have the opportunity to harvest elk.  Now that the hazing is working there is not as much opportunity to harvest an elk.
I wonder if your last sentence is part of the problem? Maybe many of these guys see this as their only opportunity to put meat in the freezer and take less than optimal shots once the shooting begins and there are multiple shooters.

The trespassing issue aside, it seems that ethical/accurate shot placement is a big complaint in these group shoots.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 08:34:37 AM
I put in 60-100 hours of service teaching hunter education classes each year and another 16 hours repairing fences knocked down by elk.

I've never liked the MH program since I first heard it proposed.  It sets up a two tier class of people among hunters, a recipe for tensions and ready-made for divide and conquer anti-hunters.  Master Hunter strikes me as a pseudo elitist designation which IMO appeals to the kind of person who likes to join clubs, of which I am not one.  But I'm probably in the minority. 

The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that. 



Two tier is actually what you have.  The WDFW wanted a group of hunters that could work as ambassadors of hunting and interact with the private landowners to build a positive image of hunters.  The goal was to paint hunters in a better light and hopefully open up more private land for all hunters to access.

Is it working to do that?  In many cases yes.  However these bad ones really put a black on the program.

One other thing that the program does and I have witnessed personally is to change the habits of the elk.  I have seen the impact of these "hunts" on the elk in 3911.  I used to see 300-400 elk in the farmers fields in my area and since the hunts have been going on the elk have moved to ground that doesn't result in conflict with private land owners.  That's a good thing for everyone. The point of these hunts isn't to give master hunters the opportunity to harvest more elk the point is to haze the elk and make them change their habits.  The side benefit is MH's have the opportunity to harvest elk.  Now that the hazing is working there is not as much opportunity to harvest an elk.
I wonder if your last sentence is part of the problem? Maybe many of these guys see this as their only opportunity to put meat in the freezer and take less than optimal shots once the shooting begins and there are multiple shooters.

The trespassing issue aside, it seems that ethical/accurate shot placement is a big complaint in these group shoots.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Again Loki, there are going to be bad apples in every group of hunters. I will say that something required of MHs and not of the general licensed hunting population is a minimum shooting proficiency. A MH must qualify with a minimum proficiency in at least one of I believe five different firearms (bow, rifle, shotgun w/slug, ML, crossbow). Some choose to qualify in all 5. This is definitely an effort to enlist people who have the ability to take better shots. In addition, there's a huge amount of material covering ethics and hunter safety. But, this isn't going to weed out bad apples. It's only going to do what the program can to eliminate as many of them as possible.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: boneaddict on December 14, 2016, 08:36:31 AM
A lot of these arguements seem to be comparative to what some of you claim are issues with tribal hunting.  Many of you that are master hunters seem to react the same way that tribal hunters do when they defend their rights.   The other funny thing that I've noticed is that instead of the race card, many pull, we are fighting amongst each other thus going to,end hunting card. 
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: boneaddict on December 14, 2016, 08:40:29 AM
I believe a little self inspection and cleaning up amongst ourselves might be a good thing.  I know tribal guys that exercise their rights and are very respectful and honorable.   I assume there are MAster Hunters that are the same.    I don't really like the tier system in either case, but that's neither here or there.   Maybe a little more accountability in either situation could go a long ways.  After all, all of us are "hunters" to the non hunting world, and most of us all want a full freezer in our futures.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Duckhunter14 on December 14, 2016, 08:43:28 AM
Its unfortunate that members of a group that is supposed to be setting the standard for ethical and moral hunting practices and building a better relationship with landowners has members committing acts like this. Unfortunately I have watched the exact same behavior on multiple occasions in the area that I hunt. It appears that people are only getting into the Master Hunter program for more opportunity, not to be a steward and a voice for all sportsman in the state. I know there are people in the program who exude that behavior. But unfortunately from all the Master Hunters I have run into; their attitude has been that they are better, they are elite, and they have the "right" to go hunt wherever they want. As if they are somehow blessed by the Fish & Game to do their deeds.

I began the process of completing my Master Hunter Certification some time back; but decided I didn't want to be associated with a group that has developed such an awful reputation.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 08:45:05 AM
Its unfortunate that members of a group that is supposed to be setting the standard for ethical and moral hunting practices and building a better relationship with landowners has members committing acts like this. Unfortunately I have watched the exact same behavior on multiple occasions in the area that I hunt. It appears that people are only getting into the Master Hunter program for more opportunity, not to be a steward and a voice for all sportsman in the state. I know there are people in the program who exude that behavior. But unfortunately from all the Master Hunters I have run into; their attitude has been that they are better, they are elite, and they have the "right" to go hunt wherever they want. As if they are somehow blessed by the Fish & Game to do their deeds.

I began the process of completing my Master Hunter Certification some time back; but decided I didn't want to be associated with a group that has developed such an awful reputation.

Your and wildlife's loss. Most are great people.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2016, 08:48:57 AM
Elk Area 3911 encompasses a large area between Cle Elum and Kittitas. For many years there has been a general season for Master Hunters for antlerless elk that runs from August 1 through mid-December, with a break in the middle. The intent of having this season for Master Hunters was to keep elk of the agricultural areas in the valley and reduce crop damage. To a degree this has worked. Elk have adapted to the hunting pressure and do not cause the same amount of damage as they previously did.

Over the years the 3911 boundaries have shrunk, the season has been shortened several times, and additional restrictions have been placed on hunters such as a requirement to purchase a second elk tag during the first half of the season.

Most of the land in 3911 is private. A significant amount of public land was eliminated when the boundaries were reduced. There are a few parcels of public land (primarily DNR) remaining, and these tend to get hit pretty hard.

Because 3911 is a general season open to all Master Hunters (with Eastside licenses), and because the areas that are huntable without permission are small, this does tend to create a situation where poor behavior is more likely to occur.

There is no question that some Master Hunters have acted both illegally and contrary to good ethics in the 3911 area.  There is a zero tolerance policy for Master Hunters. Those who have acted illegally and appropriately charged are no longer Master Hunters. Those who are not charged, and those who display poor ethical behavior may still be in the program.

I know many Master Hunters, and with few exceptions believe each of them to be ethical, competent hunters. It is unfortunate that in any group, there are some bad apples that can taint the reputation of everyone in the group.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 08:49:19 AM
A lot of these arguements seem to be comparative to what some of you claim are issues with tribal hunting.  Many of you that are master hunters seem to react the same way that tribal hunters do when they defend their rights.   The other funny thing that I've noticed is that instead of the race card, many pull, we are fighting amongst each other thus going to,end hunting card.

All due respect (and I have quite a bit for you), I'm surprised at your comment, Doug, and the comparison is completely bogus. This is nothing like tribal hunting and the program is about far more than killing animals. In addition, the use of the phrase "tribal hunting" here paints with a wide brush. There are many tribal hunters who don't abuse their rights. Many are valued members of this site.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 08:50:10 AM
I believe a little self inspection and cleaning up amongst ourselves might be a good thing.  I know tribal guys that exercise their rights and are very respectful and honorable.   I assume there are MAster Hunters that are the same.    I don't really like the tier system in either case, but that's neither here or there.   Maybe a little more accountability in either situation could go a long ways.  After all, all of us are "hunters" to the non hunting world, and most of us all want a full freezer in our futures.

A great majority of us. Thanks Doug.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 08:58:19 AM
I'm going to bow out of this discussion. You all know how I feel about the program. Have a great day and stay warm.
PMan
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: boneaddict on December 14, 2016, 09:03:04 AM
No,need to bow out.  I'm glad you are proud of the program.  You and Bob highlight what the program stands for.   That's important.   

Personally I've had equal exposure to the good and the bad. I'm not really swayed either way.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: boneaddict on December 14, 2016, 09:07:42 AM
In many discussions about tribal hunting, the master hunter program comes up.  I think you'd be proud of me that I try to listen and be open minded about the comparisons of it.   I agree I am only looking at the one facet of the program, and not being that interested in it, am ignorant to much of the other parts of it.  I am being more enlightened of it just by this thread itself.   
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on December 14, 2016, 09:09:03 AM
Well, I knew nothing about this program before this thread.  I'm learning something new today!     
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: boneaddict on December 14, 2016, 09:11:57 AM
One of the best qualities of this forum.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: ryanj on December 14, 2016, 09:16:14 AM
master hunters ha! :bash:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: JDHasty on December 14, 2016, 09:32:32 AM
I put in 60-100 hours of service teaching hunter education classes each year and another 16 hours repairing fences knocked down by elk.

I've never liked the MH program since I first heard it proposed.  It sets up a two tier class of people among hunters, a recipe for tensions and ready-made for divide and conquer anti-hunters.  Master Hunter strikes me as a pseudo elitist designation which IMO appeals to the kind of person who likes to join clubs, of which I am not one.  But I'm probably in the minority. 

The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that. 



Two tier is actually what you have.  The WDFW wanted a group of hunters that could work as ambassadors of hunting and interact with the private landowners to build a positive image of hunters.  The goal was to paint hunters in a better light and hopefully open up more private land for all hunters to access.

Is it working to do that?  In many cases yes.  However these bad ones really put a black on the program.

One other thing that the program does and I have witnessed personally is to change the habits of the elk.  I have seen the impact of these "hunts" on the elk in 3911.  I used to see 300-400 elk in the farmers fields in my area and since the hunts have been going on the elk have moved to ground that doesn't result in conflict with private land owners.  That's a good thing for everyone. The point of these hunts isn't to give master hunters the opportunity to harvest more elk the point is to haze the elk and make them change their habits.  The side benefit is MH's have the opportunity to harvest elk.  Now that the hazing is working there is not as much opportunity to harvest an elk.
I wonder if your last sentence is part of the problem? Maybe many of these guys see this as their only opportunity to put meat in the freezer and take less than optimal shots once the shooting begins and there are multiple shooters.

The trespassing issue aside, it seems that ethical/accurate shot placement is a big complaint in these group shoots.

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Again Loki, there are going to be bad apples in every group of hunters. I will say that something required of MHs and not of the general licensed hunting population is a minimum shooting proficiency. A MH must qualify with a minimum proficiency in at least one of I believe five different firearms (bow, rifle, shotgun w/slug, ML, crossbow). Some choose to qualify in all 5. This is definitely an effort to enlist people who have the ability to take better shots. In addition, there's a huge amount of material covering ethics and hunter safety. But, this isn't going to weed out bad apples. It's only going to do what the program can to eliminate as many of them as possible.

There are seven, you left out handgun & shotgun wing shooting.   The bottom line is that anyone involved in this, if what is being said re: trespass and/or wounding and/or safety violations is validated, will be gone from the program, and will not be qualified to reenter it.   If they did any of the above then they should be reported and if they actually did what is alleged they will be removed from the program permanently. 

Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 09:52:11 AM
No,need to bow out.  I'm glad you are proud of the program.  You and Bob highlight what the program stands for.   That's important.   

Personally I've had equal exposure to the good and the bad. I'm not really swayed either way.

I'm only bowing out because I've had my say and I've offered information that other people may not have been previously known. At this point, people know exactly where I stand and there's no reason to continue repeating myself. I just get worked up and other people get worked up and I think anyone is rarely ever convinced of joining someone else's opposing opinions in these threads. It's one of the reasons I got out of the Off-Topics board - too many bad feelings and it sets the mood for the day.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Special T on December 14, 2016, 09:58:12 AM
I have a couple of buddies who are master hunters involved here in Skagit County. They are a necessary part of hazing elk in the area where there is a patchwork of property and conflicting interests when it comes to elk. One of the important things that has developed is a closer relationship with the local Bios and Wardens. IMO this is important because if these people are approachable for clarification problems can be avoided. The Emphasis with MH should be increased communication with landowners and WDFW personal. My 2 friends who are involved in the program have stated many times that the communication is why many farmers stay in the program despite some less worthy participants. Additionally there is a 2 tier list within the MH group. The A team has great reviews and are the embasador for the program and those names are talked about.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: huntingfool7 on December 14, 2016, 10:06:58 AM
Additionally there is a 2 tier list within the MH group. The A team has great reviews and are the embasador for the program and those names are talked about.


First I've heard of an "A team" list and a second lower class in the MH program.  Is that an actual list at the WDFW?
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: jackelope on December 14, 2016, 10:59:50 AM
Additionally there is a 2 tier list within the MH group. The A team has great reviews and are the embasador for the program and those names are talked about.


First I've heard of an "A team" list and a second lower class in the MH program.  Is that an actual list at the WDFW?

I agree. You're saying there are literally 2 different tier groups of MHer's in the program?
It sounds like you're saying there is a group of good ones and a group of not so good ones?
Is there a source for this info?
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: canyelk48 on December 14, 2016, 11:31:26 AM
If this was a group of MHs, then there was a hunt coordinator. If they were hunting on private land without permission, all of them will lose their MH status. MHs are held to much higher standards of conduct in order to keep the designation they have worked hard for. I'm unsure what happened on this specific "hunt", but it's quite possible that this group was called in to cull several animals at the request of the landowner or because a bio saw the need to thin the herd in that specific place. There's not enough information here to make a judgement just yet.

The MH program provides a minimum of 16,000 hours of volunteer conservation work each year - minimum; that's if each MH only does what's required. At $10/hr, that saves conservation resources a minimum of $160,000.00 a year. I've personally never done less than 20 hours and I'm not alone. I suggest that our wildlife and budding young hunters would suffer greatly as a result of eliminating this program. Are there a$$hats out there who abuse the program? Yes, of course there are and the WDFW is doing their best to identify and remove those types from the program. Are there regular hunters out there who are unethical and shed a bad light on hunting? I would guarantee there are far more than in the MH ranks. Does that mean we should eliminate hunting altogether? What do you think? Before you decide to eliminate a program which provides much to conservation and our wildlife, I suggest you should definitely learn more about its benefits to our hunting community and wildlife. Closing the program would be tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face, IMHO.

Highly doubtful that a landowner requested any culling from this herd.  For one thing, the herd was mainly hanging around in the Wind Farm area off of Hwy 97; no farms or cattle ranches until they get across the highway into the valley.  These 'hunters" drove up a Private Road, clearly marked Private Road, and No Hunting, parked their trucks directly in front of two homes less than 20 yards away and opened fire on the herd in the direction of another property with horses and a few cattle.  The property the elk were on consisted of maybe 10 acres of grass and burned sage.  When they claimed they had permission from the property owner that "owned the Mexican Restaurant in town", the property owner with the horses told me that's a lie because his brother owns the restaurant and doesn't even own the property that the elk were shot on.  The hunters also told me that they'd been "chasing" this herd for 3 days.  Clearly, once they saw that the herd had settled on a piece of land off of the private road, they bailed out of their trucks and shot into the herd.  Five hunters, 3 elk down and several others wounded and ran/limped off back onto the Wind Farm property.  Also, I might add, that no one took to the trails of the wounded elk.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: JDHasty on December 14, 2016, 11:33:58 AM
If this was a group of MHs, then there was a hunt coordinator. If they were hunting on private land without permission, all of them will lose their MH status. MHs are held to much higher standards of conduct in order to keep the designation they have worked hard for. I'm unsure what happened on this specific "hunt", but it's quite possible that this group was called in to cull several animals at the request of the landowner or because a bio saw the need to thin the herd in that specific place. There's not enough information here to make a judgement just yet.

The MH program provides a minimum of 16,000 hours of volunteer conservation work each year - minimum; that's if each MH only does what's required. At $10/hr, that saves conservation resources a minimum of $160,000.00 a year. I've personally never done less than 20 hours and I'm not alone. I suggest that our wildlife and budding young hunters would suffer greatly as a result of eliminating this program. Are there a$$hats out there who abuse the program? Yes, of course there are and the WDFW is doing their best to identify and remove those types from the program. Are there regular hunters out there who are unethical and shed a bad light on hunting? I would guarantee there are far more than in the MH ranks. Does that mean we should eliminate hunting altogether? What do you think? Before you decide to eliminate a program which provides much to conservation and our wildlife, I suggest you should definitely learn more about its benefits to our hunting community and wildlife. Closing the program would be tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face, IMHO.

Highly doubtful that a landowner requested any culling from this herd.  For one thing, the herd was mainly hanging around in the Wind Farm area off of Hwy 97; no farms or cattle ranches until they get across the highway into the valley.  These 'hunters" drove up a Private Road, clearly marked Private Road, and No Hunting, parked their trucks directly in front of two homes less than 20 yards away and opened fire on the herd in the direction of another property with horses and a few cattle.  The property the elk were on consisted of maybe 10 acres of grass and burned sage.  When they claimed they had permission from the property owner that "owned the Mexican Restaurant in town", the property owner with the horses told me that's a lie because his brother owns the restaurant and doesn't even own the property that the elk were shot on.  The hunters also told me that they'd been "chasing" this herd for 3 days.  Clearly, once they saw that the herd had settled on a piece of land off of the private road, they bailed out of their trucks and shot into the herd.  Five hunters, 3 elk down and several others wounded and ran/limped off back onto the Wind Farm property.

If it went down as you say it is pretty cut and dry what will happen.  There will be five individuals who are no longer in the program. 
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: lokidog on December 14, 2016, 12:12:00 PM
I put in 60-100 hours of service teaching hunter education classes each year and another 16 hours repairing fences knocked down by elk.

I've never liked the MH program since I first heard it proposed.  It sets up a two tier class of people among hunters, a recipe for tensions and ready-made for divide and conquer anti-hunters.  Master Hunter strikes me as a pseudo elitist designation which IMO appeals to the kind of person who likes to join clubs, of which I am not one.  But I'm probably in the minority. 

The volunteer work is good but there are less divisive ways to achieve that. 



Two tier is actually what you have.  The WDFW wanted a group of hunters that could work as ambassadors of hunting and interact with the private landowners to build a positive image of hunters.  The goal was to paint hunters in a better light and hopefully open up more private land for all hunters to access.

Is it working to do that?  In many cases yes.  However these bad ones really put a black on the program.

One other thing that the program does and I have witnessed personally is to change the habits of the elk.  I have seen the impact of these "hunts" on the elk in 3911.  I used to see 300-400 elk in the farmers fields in my area and since the hunts have been going on the elk have moved to ground that doesn't result in conflict with private land owners.  That's a good thing for everyone. The point of these hunts isn't to give master hunters the opportunity to harvest more elk the point is to haze the elk and make them change their habits.  The side benefit is MH's have the opportunity to harvest elk.  Now that the hazing is working there is not as much opportunity to harvest an elk.
I wonder if your last sentence is part of the problem? Maybe many of these guys see this as their only opportunity to put meat in the freezer and take less than optimal shots once the shooting begins and there are multiple shooters.

The trespassing issue aside, it seems that ethical/accurate shot placement is a big complaint in these group shoots.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Again Loki, there are going to be bad apples in every group of hunters. I will say that something required of MHs and not of the general licensed hunting population is a minimum shooting proficiency. A MH must qualify with a minimum proficiency in at least one of I believe five different firearms (bow, rifle, shotgun w/slug, ML, crossbow). Some choose to qualify in all 5. This is definitely an effort to enlist people who have the ability to take better shots. In addition, there's a huge amount of material covering ethics and hunter safety. But, this isn't going to weed out bad apples. It's only going to do what the program can to eliminate as many of them as possible.
I understand that, however, it does seem that "gut shot", wounded,"hit in the leg" are complaints heard frequently with these kind of group hunts whereas one rarely hears of this regarding individual MH's. Maybe, I'm not understanding these hunts, are they all conducted in this group kind of setting?

Some of the worst behavior I have seen from hunters is not with an individual trying to fill a tag, it is with groups that seem to feel a need to compete or just get into a shooting frenzy when there are more animals to try to shoot than just one.

If this is the case with these group master hunts, maybe the number of shooters in one location needs to be addressed.

I have not witnessed any master hunts so am just going off of what I read here. I am sure, as is usually the case, most MH's are conscientious hunters and ambassadors of hunting.

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Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: MADMAX on December 14, 2016, 12:13:03 PM
Did the program for 15 years, quit when the BS got too heavy.
went to renew and was told I had to retake the entire course because I was over 3 months expired
not something I was closely every -6 years ( I think ) -paying regular attention to for my expiration date.

My bad
dont miss it
 :twocents:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2016, 12:15:42 PM
If the facts are accurate, the individuals that performed this way should be removed from the MH program.

They will still be just as unethical, if not more so without a "zero tolerance" policy. Their marksmanship will be just as poor.

When they cripple an animal, miss, trespass, or violate any other legal or ethical code we most likely will never know.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Rainier10 on December 14, 2016, 12:30:17 PM
If the facts are accurate, the individuals that performed this way should be removed from the MH program.

They will still be just as unethical, if not more so without a "zero tolerance" policy. Their marksmanship will be just as poor.

When they cripple an animal, miss, trespass, or violate any other legal or ethical code we most likely will never know.
:yeah:
I think if it played out how it is described they will be removed.

And you are definitely correct that they will continue with their actions and instead of ending up in a "disgusted with MH" thread they will be in a "slob road hunters" or "slob rifle hunters" thread.  They may even make friends with a native and end up in a "native poaching" thread.

Bad apples are bad apples and they end up in every user group.  Well except for the group of perfect hunters that Bob is still looking for.  :chuckle:  They are out there Bob, I am sure of it.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2016, 12:54:39 PM
Bad apples are bad apples and they end up in every user group.  Well except for the group of perfect hunters that Bob is still looking for.  :chuckle:  They are out there Bob, I am sure of it.
I've reviewed quite a few applications, but after pouring over social media and other hunting sites I usually find something to disqualify them: missing hunter orange in a success photo, killing an animal with the wrong bullet, associating with members of certain organizations deemed unfit, and even a few who were temporarily banned from Hunt WA for trying to bypass the censor filter.

Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Special T on December 14, 2016, 01:12:59 PM
Additionally there is a 2 tier list within the MH group. The A team has great reviews and are the embasador for the program and those names are talked about.


First I've heard of an "A team" list and a second lower class in the MH program.  Is that an actual list at the WDFW?
No official list. Just people with a good reputation that get on the list each year that would be requested  participants if there was a mechanism for doing so.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Timberstalker on December 14, 2016, 01:14:05 PM
Bad apples are bad apples and they end up in every user group.  Well except for the group of perfect hunters that Bob is still looking for.  :chuckle:  They are out there Bob, I am sure of it.
I've reviewed quite a few applications, but after pouring over social media and other hunting sites I usually find something to disqualify them: missing hunter orange in a success photo, killing an animal with the wrong bullet, associating with members of certain organizations deemed unfit, and even a few who were temporarily banned from Hunt WA for trying to bypass the censor filter.



 :chuckle: :chuckle:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: samsqatch on December 14, 2016, 01:39:03 PM
Had a master hunter/ aquaitance show up at our house once with a cow elk he had harvested and managed to get into his pick up whole. Guts and all! He asked if I would help him gut and skin seeing how he had never done one before with this being his first animal he had ever harvest. I explained I did not have time but my 8 year old at the time did. Guy drank a couple of beers while I helped my 8 year old with a little guidance get the job done. Not all are but this guy is one of two idiots I know that that hold that license and either really should not have a hunting license period or abuse the privilege. 
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Widgeondeke on December 14, 2016, 01:42:47 PM
quote from Bob33
I've reviewed quite a few applications, but after pouring over social media and other hunting sites I usually find something to disqualify them: missing hunter orange in a success photo, killing an animal with the wrong bullet, associating with members of certain organizations deemed unfit, and even a few who were temporarily banned from Hunt WA for trying to bypass the censor filter.
[/quote]

Seriously? you are deemed unfit to be a MH because you wanted to not have hunter orange in a pic?  :yike:  That is ridiculous  :twocents:  That in itself would discourage me from the elitist group
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2016, 01:48:12 PM
Lol widgeon, you not that good with satire, huh?
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Widgeondeke on December 14, 2016, 02:02:07 PM
Lol widgeon, you not that good with satire, huh?

You never know with Bob33   :chuckle:
Many on here are guilty by association, so...... :dunno:
an alleged trespasser was given a ticket for no hunter orange in a picture, so.... :dunno:

the bullet was the giveaway to me. now if he has said wrong caliber that'd be an entire different thread bashing  :bash:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2016, 02:06:06 PM
Lol widgeon, you not that good with satire, huh?

You never know with Bob33   :chuckle:
Many on here are guilty by association, so...... :dunno:
an alleged trespasser was given a ticket for no hunter orange in a picture, so.... :dunno:

the bullet was the giveaway to me. now if he has said wrong caliber that'd be an entire different thread bashing  :bash:
:fishin:

Sorry about that. I was kidding. :tup:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: WSU on December 14, 2016, 03:07:22 PM
I've had good luck with the program.  I've helped some landowners, some of who have become friendly and I've maintained a relationship with.  I've volunteered quite a bit.  I've also got a few elk through the program (although I long ago wrote off the Yakima/Ellensburg area because I'm too far away and haven't made the contacts you'd need to make it worth while).  Like every group, there are some good and some not so good.  I've also been surprised by the lack of experience many have.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Okanagan on December 14, 2016, 03:51:07 PM
I've also been surprised by the lack of experience many have.

You must be mistaken.  These are MASTER HUNTERS.

The title alone sets up some great humor!

Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: WSU on December 14, 2016, 03:58:50 PM
I've also been surprised by the lack of experience many have.

You must be mistaken.  These are MASTER HUNTERS.

The title alone sets up some great humor!

Not that it matters.  Some of the biggest slobs have been hunting their entire life.  I don't think experience is necessarily required for damage hunts and volunteering. 
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Special T on December 14, 2016, 04:49:28 PM
I think being close to where your going to haze elk also makes a big difference to being an A list MH. If you have the ability to check on the farmers feild a few times a week not just on the weekend u get to know the property, area, and accomplish more by hazing. Much harder to do if your not a "local". 
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Odell on December 14, 2016, 05:18:32 PM
I've also been surprised by the lack of experience many have.

You must be mistaken.  These are MASTER HUNTERS.

The title alone sets up some great humor!

I am convinced the title is responsible for most of the animosity toward it by other hunters. If they were called 'volunteer conservationists' or something it wouldn't threaten the fragile ego of so many who believe themselves to be better hunters but don't want to be in the program.

The reality is its an open program to anyone willing to put in the work. It doesn't have anything to do with your level of hunting skill. Also, many come into the program with a variety of backgrounds. I have 25 years working dogs and hunting ducks but know almost nothing about hunting elk.


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Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: JDHasty on December 14, 2016, 06:06:17 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate.  I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth. 
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: jay.sharkbait on December 14, 2016, 06:10:00 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate.  I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth.

How about some facts instead of half baked opinions like most of your other posts?
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Okanagan on December 14, 2016, 06:28:51 PM
Just for clarity, (not that it will make any difference to anybody):  thinking that a particular government program is not a good idea does not equate to animosity toward anyone.

 
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Odell on December 14, 2016, 06:38:11 PM
I can see that. But the program and the people in the program get attacked with a level of animosity on here that makes little sense.


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Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: EyeTooth on December 14, 2016, 07:01:19 PM
Sorry to hear about that canyelk48. That's doesn't sound like the makings for a pleasant day.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: mountainman on December 14, 2016, 07:41:12 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate.  I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth. 
sure this is true for some, but in a lesser degree..
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: JDHasty on December 14, 2016, 08:12:43 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate.  I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth.

How about some facts instead of half baked opinions like most of your other posts?

Oh sorry, did that hit a little close to home? 
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: jay.sharkbait on December 14, 2016, 08:18:52 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate.  I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth.

How about some facts instead of half baked opinions like most of your other posts?

Oh sorry, did that hit a little close to home?

Oh, wow you got me there. I'll confess, I can't pass the marksmanship test.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: JDHasty on December 14, 2016, 08:22:05 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate.  I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth.

How about some facts instead of half baked opinions like most of your other posts?

Oh sorry, did that hit a little close to home?

Oh, wow you got me there. I'll confess, I can't pass the marksmanship test.

Yea, I doubt there is going to be a certification standard for volley fire. 
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Bob33 on December 14, 2016, 08:29:22 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate.  I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth.

How about some facts instead of half baked opinions like most of your other posts?

Oh sorry, did that hit a little close to home?

Oh, wow you got me there. I'll confess, I can't pass the marksmanship test.

Yea, I doubt there is going to be a certification standard for volley fire.
Was mud slinging one of the methods you qualified with to be a Master Hunter?
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: jay.sharkbait on December 14, 2016, 08:38:25 PM
Some of the animosity is from those who can't qualify because they can't seem to not violate.  I know putting this up is not going to sit well with some, but it is the truth.

How about some facts instead of half baked opinions like most of your other posts?

Oh sorry, did that hit a little close to home?

Oh, wow you got me there. I'll confess, I can't pass the marksmanship test.

Yea, I doubt there is going to be a certification standard for volley fire.

I'm pretty good with the crew served stuff. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Dan-o on December 14, 2016, 09:11:51 PM
A couple thoughts:
1.  If these guys were really Master Hunters, and if they did anything illegal in the course of their hunt, they can be removed from the program (provisionally) BEFORE they are convicted.  This changed several years ago.   The WDFW administrators can remove them right away in the face of illegal activity (even alleged).   I hope you called a warden or police soon enough to get them (Master Hunters or not).
2.  I know that WDFW has no problem being very aggressive in removing MH's who break the rules.   No 2nd chances. 
3.  I've been in the program for about 13 years now...... and I love it.  Because I've met some AWESOME people, including farmers, land owner, other hunters.   
4.  I've removed derelict wire fence, fixed other fence, cleaned up after other slob hunters, hazed elk out of irrigated crops, cleaned boat ramp areas, and worked at a hatchery as part of my MH service.     And I'vemet some great landowners.
5.   Good night.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on December 14, 2016, 09:50:23 PM
Bad apples are bad apples and they end up in every user group.  Well except for the group of perfect hunters that Bob is still looking for.  :chuckle:  They are out there Bob, I am sure of it.
I've reviewed quite a few applications, but after pouring over social media and other hunting sites I usually find something to disqualify them: missing hunter orange in a success photo, killing an animal with the wrong bullet, associating with members of certain organizations deemed unfit, and even a few who were temporarily banned from Hunt WA for trying to bypass the censor filter.

You left out not wearing the correct amount of camo and face paint.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: JDHasty on December 15, 2016, 06:01:14 AM
A couple thoughts:
1.  If these guys were really Master Hunters, and if they did anything illegal in the course of their hunt, they can be removed from the program (provisionally) BEFORE they are convicted.  This changed several years ago.   The WDFW administrators can remove them right away in the face of illegal activity (even alleged).   I hope you called a warden or police soon enough to get them (Master Hunters or not).
2.  I know that WDFW has no problem being very aggressive in removing MH's who break the rules.   No 2nd chances. 
3.  I've been in the program for about 13 years now...... and I love it.  Because I've met some AWESOME people, including farmers, land owner, other hunters.   
4.  I've removed derelict wire fence, fixed other fence, cleaned up after other slob hunters, hazed elk out of irrigated crops, cleaned boat ramp areas, and worked at a hatchery as part of my MH service.     And I'vemet some great landowners.
5.   Good night.

The program is what you make of it.  There are people who are there strictly to take advantage of the program but they are not indicative of the participants on the whole. 
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: tgomez on December 15, 2016, 06:37:07 AM
"Master hunters" LMAO😂 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: safehunter on December 15, 2016, 08:07:44 AM
Today I looked out my window to see a herd of elk standing near my access road, so decided to drive down to the mailbox and take some photos.  Much to my dismay, as I round the curve and started snapping photos, I notice one cow limping away and then I see several rigs parked on a side road and people wearing hunter orange.  Drove down and see that they all had rifles and had shot the hell out of the herd.  At least 3 cows in sight down, and several others wounded and trying to keep up with the herd.  When I told them they were on private property (not mine, however), they claimed to have verbal permission (though highly unlikely since the land owner doesn't even live here) and that they were all Master Hunters.  I was so disgusted by the way these so called hunters just shot into the herd, including in the direction of nearby horses and livestock, that I gave them a piece of my mind and told them that in no way are they real hunters and just give hunters a bad name by actions such as theirs.  I took photographs and called Fish and Game and waited for them to show.  The officers investigated and another land owner also reported to them about coming upon 2 gut piles and a dead elk the other day behind his property.  Don't know what the outcome of these two separate incidents will be, but hopefully if nothing else, these idiots will think twice about shooting up a herd of elk in an area sounded by homes and livestock.  Nothing more than legalized poaching IMO and no better than the other incident with Natives at Oak Creek that is currently stirring up a lot of talk on this site.  To these "Master Hunters", way to go, you should be proud of your great hunt.
I understand your dismay, but sounds like you are the judge, jury and executioner and without a trial?
!) Could they have been told by someone( supposed land owner) that they could hunt there?
2) Did you witness them shoot in the direction of livestock or just your thought?
3) If the LEO investigated why didn't they take their MH permits on the spot?
4) Gut piles and a dead elk behind a land owners property, means what? Did these guys leave a dead elk and take two? Public land? Tribal hunters? Poachers? Other MH's?
 I'm not agreeing with what had transpired, but if it all went down as your reporting. Then LEO should have pulled their cards and issued citations!
  I have been in the program for quite awhile and very proud to be! I also know many who are and would have avoided the situation that you are describing!
   Giving Back is not what is described here! My  :twocents: on your post
 
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Odell on December 15, 2016, 11:20:01 AM
"Master hunters" LMAO😂 :chuckle:

There it is... primarily a name problem.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: wheels on December 16, 2016, 03:43:19 PM
not all of usare like that i hope you turned them in
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Bob33 on December 16, 2016, 04:05:02 PM
"Master hunters" LMAO😂 :chuckle:

There it is... primarily a name problem.
At least it's better than what the fishermen got.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: splitshot on December 16, 2016, 04:05:26 PM
  I don't care for the mh program.    really don't care for the second elk deal.  the fee for a mh should be as much as a multi tag or more.  mike w
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: MR5x5 on December 17, 2016, 11:29:33 AM
Not a Master Hunter here, but I get it.  It's the state tying to maintain relations with people impacted by wildlife damage in various forms in an effort to maximize opportunities for the rest of the hinting community.  Perfect? No.  Perfection is typically a ridiculously high bar to measure something by.  Go find the latest Bugle and read the article on "Shoulder Hunts".  Similar type programs being tried in other states.

There is not one charge in this thread leveled against MH's that can't be leveled against actors in the general season.  I would assume closing down the general because someone found a knucklehead would not be agreeable to us all.  (But I bet the anti-hunters would love it!)

If it the MH program is not for you, don't get involved.  Let it go...  It has no impact on you otherwise.

Enjoy the Holidays!
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on December 17, 2016, 11:41:40 AM
Not a Master Hunter here, but I get it.  It's the state tying to maintain relations with people impacted by wildlife damage in various forms in an effort to maximize opportunities for the rest of the hinting community.  Perfect? No.  Perfection is typically a ridiculously high bar to measure something by.  Go find the latest Bugle and read the article on "Shoulder Hunts".  Similar type programs being tried in other states.

There is not one charge in this thread leveled against MH's that can't be leveled against actors in the general season.  I would assume closing down the general because someone found a knucklehead would not be agreeable to us all.  (But I bet the anti-hunters would love it!)

If it the MH program is not for you, don't get involved.  Let it go...  It has no impact on you otherwise.

Enjoy the Holidays!


It cannot not impact non-Master Hunters. 

Simply stated, the uniformed public simply sees (or hears/reads about) a hunter acting in an illegal or unethical or whatever bad moniker you want to place on the behavior, and by default, gets lumped onto all hunters in general. 

The Master Hunters make an agreement to be held to a higher standard voluntarily, knowing full well the results if they violate that agreement. 



Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: MR5x5 on December 17, 2016, 12:39:14 PM
Agreed.  Hunting missteps, regardless of source, reflect badly on hunting in general, and this incident is no exception.  I have no data to back it, but I would assert that as a population, the MH hunter program has a higher ethical standard than the general hunting population simply because it takes additional effort to achieve the cert.  Are all MHs of high ethical standard? Of course not.  Are all general season hunters of low ethical standard? Of course not.

So looking at what the MH program is trying to do in balance with what would generally seem to be positive results, you'd advise throwing out the entire program for the acts of a few?  I don't believe it. Because if you did you'd be advocated the elimination of hunting general due to the acts of a few.

Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on December 18, 2016, 12:19:45 PM
Agreed.  Hunting missteps, regardless of source, reflect badly on hunting in general, and this incident is no exception.  I have no data to back it, but I would assert that as a population, the MH hunter program has a higher ethical standard than the general hunting population simply because it takes additional effort to achieve the cert.  Are all MHs of high ethical standard? Of course not.  Are all general season hunters of low ethical standard? Of course not.

So looking at what the MH program is trying to do in balance with what would generally seem to be positive results, you'd advise throwing out the entire program for the acts of a few?  I don't believe it. Because if you did you'd be advocated the elimination of hunting general due to the acts of a few.

If this was directed to me, no.  Individual actions deserve individual responses and consequences.

I was just rebutting your comment that the incident does not effect other hunters.


Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: JDHasty on December 18, 2016, 03:30:11 PM
So what was the outcome of any investigation? 
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Rob on December 18, 2016, 08:29:37 PM
So much negativity and borderline hate of one hunting group, against another.

A house divided...

So disappointing.
Title: Re: Disqusted by so called Master Hunters
Post by: Chukarhead on December 29, 2016, 10:41:44 AM
"Master hunters" LMAO😂 :chuckle:

There it is... primarily a name problem.
At least it's better than what the fishermen got.

Ah, that was worth reading through all of this.  Thanks!    :tup: :chuckle:
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