Post by: Allen23 on January 20, 2017, 01:14:02 PM
I don't want to sound like I am complaining, and I do feel very lucky to have had the year that I did. I drew a multi season Elk tag ( had 4 points) also drew a antlerless tag ( 1 point ) and I drew a quality bull tag (10 points). Now one would look at that roster and say wow what luck you had this year, but after talking to a few people that were lucky as well and drew quality bull tags I also discovered that they in fact ALL had drawn the antlerless tags that they had put in for. Don't get me wrong I think it is great to have options but I don't know anyone who is going to pick an antlerless tag over a quality bull tag.
I might be over analyzing this but all I see here is 4 tags, that no matter which one you decided to hunt for, that would not be filled because they were given to people that already had tags.
My question I guess, is why isn't there a second draw in Washington like there is in so many other states? And is there anyone else who thinks this way? I think if you are lucky enough to draw multiple tags in a year and are only allowed to harvest one animal of that species shouldn't we have the choice to give our fellow hunters the opportunity to draw a special tag on a second draw?
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 20, 2017, 01:18:37 PM
Post by: robodad on January 20, 2017, 01:25:27 PM
Post by: 7mmfan on January 20, 2017, 01:35:11 PM
Post by: Bob33 on January 20, 2017, 01:38:38 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on January 20, 2017, 02:30:53 PM
Post by: walleye1 on January 20, 2017, 03:16:55 PM
Post by: Bob33 on January 20, 2017, 03:19:25 PM
Post by: JoeE on January 20, 2017, 03:21:47 PM
Post by: steeleywhopper on January 20, 2017, 03:43:05 PM
Post by: Firedogg on January 20, 2017, 03:47:58 PM
Post by: Buzz2401 on January 20, 2017, 04:34:19 PM
Post by: steeleywhopper on January 20, 2017, 04:56:53 PM
I think it should stay same. People get to choose if they want points or not. If you divided it it would take even longer to draw any tag. A Bull tag is something many people wait for for over 10 years. Antlerless tags are just a bonus and are often drawn under 5 years. 2015 my wife drew both and was just pumped to be able to tag a branched antler bull.
Some of us only put in for antlerless tags and hate seeing them wasted. I put in for cow tags and it pisses me off that WDFW lets them fall by the wayside. If you draw both in one season let a guy fill both tags, we've paid for it in our years of waiting and our hard earned dollar.
Post by: sumpnz on January 20, 2017, 04:58:28 PM
Post by: Jerome on January 20, 2017, 05:26:08 PM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 20, 2017, 05:43:43 PM
We should beable to forfeit the permit of our choice and keep our points in that category if we draw multiple permits for the same species. My son drew a bull and a antlerless permit last year and obviously only hunted the bull permit. It would have been nice to beable to decline the antlerless permit and keep the points. It worked out and he took a stud bull that was worth losing the points in both categories but as we all know that doesnt always happen.Absolutely not! You apply and draw your points are gone. I like that people get their points used up faster. It ups the odds of drawing for everyone else by removing some points from the pool. Wa draw system is already complicated enough.
I feel that we pay to play their game. If we draw a cow and bull permit we should be able to buy a second elk tag and harvest both animals. Tired of hearing about them letting us draw multiple tags but only letting us fill one of them.In wa you don't draw a tag, but a permit. You buy a tag to be able to apply for the permits and to actually hunt. I would like to see WA actually draw for tags.. i.e. You draw a colockum cow tag for example. That season is all that you get to hunt that year. :twocents:
Post by: Buzz2401 on January 20, 2017, 05:47:42 PM
We should beable to forfeit the permit of our choice and keep our points in that category if we draw multiple permits for the same species. My son drew a bull and a antlerless permit last year and obviously only hunted the bull permit. It would have been nice to beable to decline the antlerless permit and keep the points. It worked out and he took a stud bull that was worth losing the points in both categories but as we all know that doesnt always happen.Absolutely not! You apply and draw your points are gone. I like that people get their points used up faster. It ups the odds of drawing for everyone else by removing some points from the pool. Wa draw system is already complicated enough.I feel that we pay to play their game. If we draw a cow and bull permit we should be able to buy a second elk tag and harvest both animals. Tired of hearing about them letting us draw multiple tags but only letting us fill one of them.In wa you don't draw a tag, but a permit. You buy a tag to be able to apply for the permits and to actually hunt. I would like to see WA actually draw for tags.. i.e. You draw a colockum cow tag for example. That season is all that you get to hunt that year. :twocents:
I like that idea.
Post by: jstone on January 20, 2017, 05:56:59 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 20, 2017, 06:15:07 PM
Post by: NRA4LIFE on January 20, 2017, 06:41:54 PM
Post by: KNOPHISH on January 20, 2017, 08:56:04 PM
Post by: steeleywhopper on January 21, 2017, 04:42:52 AM
We should beable to forfeit the permit of our choice and keep our points in that category if we draw multiple permits for the same species. My son drew a bull and a antlerless permit last year and obviously only hunted the bull permit. It would have been nice to beable to decline the antlerless permit and keep the points. It worked out and he took a stud bull that was worth losing the points in both categories but as we all know that doesnt always happen.Absolutely not! You apply and draw your points are gone. I like that people get their points used up faster. It ups the odds of drawing for everyone else by removing some points from the pool. Wa draw system is already complicated enough.I feel that we pay to play their game. If we draw a cow and bull permit we should be able to buy a second elk tag and harvest both animals. Tired of hearing about them letting us draw multiple tags but only letting us fill one of them.In wa you don't draw a tag, but a permit. You buy a tag to be able to apply for the permits and to actually hunt. I would like to see WA actually draw for tags.. i.e. You draw a colockum cow tag sorry for the mistake for example. That season is all that you get to hunt that year. :twocents:
:bash:
Post by: wheels on January 21, 2017, 05:02:11 AM
Post by: Fish4Fun on January 23, 2017, 08:50:14 AM
I've been playing the ghost point game with elk lately, just because I don't want to draw multiple.
This will be my game plan now that I have the Quality Bull out of the way. I will ghost the any bull and try to get my cow points drawn, then go after the any bull permit. Really don't want to wipe out the any bull and cow all in the same season.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on January 25, 2017, 09:33:24 PM
I've been playing the ghost point game with elk lately, just because I don't want to draw multiple.In Washington one should never concern ones self with drawing a tag, much less multiples thereof.
Post by: Allen23 on March 09, 2017, 08:50:02 PM
Post by: huntbow on March 09, 2017, 10:02:17 PM
What if i don't draw one? Plenty of other opportunity, Idaho or Colorado OTC tags. I can hunt Washington another year.
If you put in and draw multiple tags that's your choice and not mine. However, I don't feel that points should be given back in that circumstance just for the fact that others have already pointed out "point creep". There are different ways to play their game and this is mine.
Post by: OutHouse on March 10, 2017, 10:08:51 AM
Post by: Bob33 on March 10, 2017, 10:11:26 AM
Post by: mburrows on March 10, 2017, 10:36:11 AM
Post by: Browndawg on March 10, 2017, 12:08:06 PM
Post by: Bob33 on March 10, 2017, 12:14:32 PM
Glad I saw this. I've got 6 points for each, and I'd hate to draw multiple. I'm thinking I just might put in for Antlerless and buy points for the Quality and Bull. I'd hate to have to switch units to hunt for a Quality Bull, and eat all my Antlerless points in the unit I usually hunt. West Side Guy.With odds of drawing a quality permit with six points quite low, I'd think twice about sitting out a year for the very unlikely possibility of drawing multiple permits.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on March 10, 2017, 01:18:32 PM
I understand the frustration of getting zeroed out, but have little sympathy for it. I know of dozens of permits that are wasted every year. Not wasted as in the hunter tried and didnt fill a tag, wasted as in the hunter didnt even hunt it and often had no or little intention of hunting it in the first place. Not knocking it the system is in place and allows it. I wish we would go back to pre cash grab permit system. Then guys who genuinely wanted a antlerless permit are not competing with guys who throw in "just in case" often with stacked points from waiting prior years for quality permits.
I havent accrued any antlerless points since the inception, and till last year doubled down on bull and quality, but at this point I would be dissapointed if I threw snake eyes and got both in one season.
Post by: sumpnz on March 10, 2017, 01:34:43 PM
Post by: RadSav on March 10, 2017, 02:13:08 PM
Post by: M_ray on March 10, 2017, 02:17:49 PM
I think it should stay same. People get to choose if they want points or not. If you divided it it would take even longer to draw any tag. A Bull tag is something many people wait for for over 10 years. Antlerless tags are just a bonus and are often drawn under 5 years. 2015 my wife drew both and was just pumped to be able to tag a branched antler bull.
If it were a system where you had to choose only one between Deer, Elk, oil or antlerless then your odds of drawing will actually go up not down and most likely an antlerless tag could be drawn every time you chose it :dunno: Do some math and you'll find you actually have a better chance of going an entire lifetime without drawing an oil tag than you do of drawing it. :twocents:
Post by: Bob33 on March 10, 2017, 02:38:47 PM
"NOIL" permits. ;)I think it should stay same. People get to choose if they want points or not. If you divided it it would take even longer to draw any tag. A Bull tag is something many people wait for for over 10 years. Antlerless tags are just a bonus and are often drawn under 5 years. 2015 my wife drew both and was just pumped to be able to tag a branched antler bull.
If it were a system where you had to choose only one between Deer, Elk, oil or antlerless then your odds of drawing will actually go up not down and most likely an antlerless tag could be drawn every time you chose it :dunno: Do some math and you'll find you actually have a better chance of going an entire lifetime without drawing an oil tag than you do of drawing it. :twocents:
In 2016, for “any moose” there were 19,324 applications for 107 permits: 1 in 180 overall odds.
“Any ram” bighorn sheep: 13,108 applications for 22 permits: 1 in 595.
Mountain goat: 8,900 applications for 21 permits: 1 in 423.
Your odds with points are better but are still fairly poor. For "any moose" there were 142 applications with 20 or more points; 4 of them drew: 1 in 35.
Post by: sumpnz on March 10, 2017, 03:23:54 PM
"NOIL" permits. ;)I think it should stay same. People get to choose if they want points or not. If you divided it it would take even longer to draw any tag. A Bull tag is something many people wait for for over 10 years. Antlerless tags are just a bonus and are often drawn under 5 years. 2015 my wife drew both and was just pumped to be able to tag a branched antler bull.
If it were a system where you had to choose only one between Deer, Elk, oil or antlerless then your odds of drawing will actually go up not down and most likely an antlerless tag could be drawn every time you chose it :dunno: Do some math and you'll find you actually have a better chance of going an entire lifetime without drawing an oil tag than you do of drawing it. :twocents:
In 2016, for “any moose” there were 19,324 applications for 107 permits: 1 in 180 overall odds.
“Any ram” bighorn sheep: 13,108 applications for 22 permits: 1 in 595.
Mountain goat: 8,900 applications for 21 permits: 1 in 423.
Your odds with points are better but are still fairly poor. For "any moose" there were 142 applications with 20 or more points; 4 of them drew: 1 in 35.
How many raffle tickets would it take to get better odds?
Post by: Bob33 on March 10, 2017, 03:29:50 PM
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/permits/raffles/big_game_raffle_ticket_sales.pdf"NOIL" permits. ;)I think it should stay same. People get to choose if they want points or not. If you divided it it would take even longer to draw any tag. A Bull tag is something many people wait for for over 10 years. Antlerless tags are just a bonus and are often drawn under 5 years. 2015 my wife drew both and was just pumped to be able to tag a branched antler bull.
If it were a system where you had to choose only one between Deer, Elk, oil or antlerless then your odds of drawing will actually go up not down and most likely an antlerless tag could be drawn every time you chose it :dunno: Do some math and you'll find you actually have a better chance of going an entire lifetime without drawing an oil tag than you do of drawing it. :twocents:
In 2016, for “any moose” there were 19,324 applications for 107 permits: 1 in 180 overall odds.
“Any ram” bighorn sheep: 13,108 applications for 22 permits: 1 in 595.
Mountain goat: 8,900 applications for 21 permits: 1 in 423.
Your odds with points are better but are still fairly poor. For "any moose" there were 142 applications with 20 or more points; 4 of them drew: 1 in 35.
How many raffle tickets would it take to get better odds?
If my eyeballs and math are good, there were 5,526 moose raffle tickets sold last year. It would take about 30 tickets to get 1 in 180 odds, and 157 to get 1 in 35 odds. Tickets for moose are $6 each.
Post by: sumpnz on March 10, 2017, 03:45:56 PM
Post by: M_ray on March 10, 2017, 03:52:54 PM
"NOIL" permits. ;)I think it should stay same. People get to choose if they want points or not. If you divided it it would take even longer to draw any tag. A Bull tag is something many people wait for for over 10 years. Antlerless tags are just a bonus and are often drawn under 5 years. 2015 my wife drew both and was just pumped to be able to tag a branched antler bull.
If it were a system where you had to choose only one between Deer, Elk, oil or antlerless then your odds of drawing will actually go up not down and most likely an antlerless tag could be drawn every time you chose it :dunno: Do some math and you'll find you actually have a better chance of going an entire lifetime without drawing an oil tag than you do of drawing it. :twocents:
In 2016, for “any moose” there were 19,324 applications for 107 permits: 1 in 180 overall odds.
“Any ram” bighorn sheep: 13,108 applications for 22 permits: 1 in 595.
Mountain goat: 8,900 applications for 21 permits: 1 in 423.
Your odds with points are better but are still fairly poor. For "any moose" there were 142 applications with 20 or more points; 4 of them drew: 1 in 35.
Now consider how many of your numbers include people that put in for all three or all five if you include antlerless moose and ewe ram, I know I do. Take those people out of each category and make them choose just one and your odds will be even better than you have figured. You may find in a few years that those who choose to go for a cow elk will be drawing every year! Not to mention it will eliminate the cow tags going unused because someone has also drawn a bull tag choosing to eat the cow tag that someone else would be happy to have. ;)
Post by: baker5150 on March 10, 2017, 03:57:52 PM
Just let the tags be filled. If you draw multiple Elk tags, you get to fill multiple elk tags.
Post by: M_ray on March 10, 2017, 04:15:38 PM
"NOIL" permits. ;)I think it should stay same. People get to choose if they want points or not. If you divided it it would take even longer to draw any tag. A Bull tag is something many people wait for for over 10 years. Antlerless tags are just a bonus and are often drawn under 5 years. 2015 my wife drew both and was just pumped to be able to tag a branched antler bull.
If it were a system where you had to choose only one between Deer, Elk, oil or antlerless then your odds of drawing will actually go up not down and most likely an antlerless tag could be drawn every time you chose it :dunno: Do some math and you'll find you actually have a better chance of going an entire lifetime without drawing an oil tag than you do of drawing it. :twocents:
In 2016, for “any moose” there were 19,324 applications for 107 permits: 1 in 180 overall odds.
“Any ram” bighorn sheep: 13,108 applications for 22 permits: 1 in 595.
Mountain goat: 8,900 applications for 21 permits: 1 in 423.
Your odds with points are better but are still fairly poor. For "any moose" there were 142 applications with 20 or more points; 4 of them drew: 1 in 35.
BTW lets take your odds of drawing and really look at the implied probability percentage of drawing and see if you still like the way it looks
For 1 to 180 odds for winning;
Probability of:
Winning = (0.0055) or 0.5525%
Losing = (0.9945) or 99.4475%
So yes after looking at a 99.4475% chance that you will not be drawn? then yes you can go a lifetime and never see an oil tag. :tup:
Quote
Your odds with points are better but are still fairly poor.
Also I am not saying eliminate points I'm saying eliminate the number of people in a category and the odds of drawing it will increase. :twocents:
Post by: M_ray on March 10, 2017, 04:23:01 PM
Easy solution.
Just let the tags be filled. If you draw multiple Elk tags, you get to fill multiple elk tags.
Sounds great but the reality is that most will not even hunt for a cow given a bull permit in their pocket. I shot a cow last year in the muzzy season and passed several legal 3 point or better bucks in Wa and ate the tag because I didn't need the meat. I can see people doing the same once one of the tags are filled :dunno: Who needs or has the space for two elk? I know some will be the exception to the rule but many hunters will not take two elk even given the chance.
Post by: baker5150 on March 10, 2017, 04:39:15 PM
Easy solution.
Just let the tags be filled. If you draw multiple Elk tags, you get to fill multiple elk tags.
Sounds great but the reality is that most will not even hunt for a cow given a bull permit in their pocket. I shot a cow last year in the muzzy season and passed several legal 3 point or better bucks in Wa and ate the tag because I didn't need the meat. I can see people doing the same once one of the tags are filled :dunno: Who needs or has the space for two elk? I know some will be the exception to the rule but many hunters will not take two elk even given the chance.
I know a lot of people who could use that meat. Friends, Family, Hunting buddies with bad luck, etc.
Lets say you draw a quality and a bull tag, you wouldn't fill both tags if you could?
You have a modern cow and a modern quality tag, 2 separate seasons, I'd love to be in the woods hunting elk that long, who wouldn't?
Or a bull and a cow tag, you see a cow and fill that tag, now your set for meat and can still hunt for that bull of a lifetime knowing your set up if it doesn't happen. You can be picky with no worries about an empty freezer.
I'm just saying make it an option to fill both, right now your just screwed out of a tag
If it's our choice, and you don't need the meat, than don't fill the tag. At least the choice was yours, not the DFW's.
Post by: Bob33 on March 10, 2017, 04:46:19 PM
Post by: sumpnz on March 10, 2017, 05:00:22 PM
Or do what M_ray suggested and make people pick only one category per species. Those that want the trophy bull tags won't be in the way of guys like me that would rather get a cow than a rutted out bull anyway since the cows taste better and antlers are a minimal motivator.
I don't care all that much what gets done, but something to improve the draw odds would be nice.
Post by: Bob33 on March 10, 2017, 05:03:41 PM
Post by: johnnyaustin44 on March 10, 2017, 05:15:26 PM
Post by: RadSav on March 10, 2017, 05:40:38 PM
Easy solution.
Just let the tags be filled. If you draw multiple Elk tags, you get to fill multiple elk tags.
Sounds great but the reality is that most will not even hunt for a cow given a bull permit in their pocket. I shot a cow last year in the muzzy season and passed several legal 3 point or better bucks in Wa and ate the tag because I didn't need the meat. I can see people doing the same once one of the tags are filled :dunno: Who needs or has the space for two elk? I know some will be the exception to the rule but many hunters will not take two elk even given the chance.
The one time I did draw a cow tag I shot a bull opening day of Early Archery. That filled our elk freezer so the wife did not use her tag during early. Found someone to take the year prior elk meat day before late season ended so we took a few hours on the last day and filled the wife's with a cow. Using my cow points to shoot a bull doesn't bother me much.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 10, 2017, 05:49:36 PM
Post by: Browndawg on March 10, 2017, 05:59:19 PM
Not planning on sitting out. Paying for the point saver, or "ghost", if I'm understanding the terminology.Glad I saw this. I've got 6 points for each, and I'd hate to draw multiple. I'm thinking I just might put in for Antlerless and buy points for the Quality and Bull. I'd hate to have to switch units to hunt for a Quality Bull, and eat all my Antlerless points in the unit I usually hunt. West Side Guy.With odds of drawing a quality permit with six points quite low, I'd think twice about sitting out a year for the very unlikely possibility of drawing multiple permits.
I've been putting in for quality bull as a point saver the last few years because the draw I want is on the east side. I hunt the west side. If I put my points in for an East side draw, I have to hunt the east side whether I draw it or not. Stupid rule for my circumstances but I get it.
Post by: Bob33 on March 10, 2017, 06:06:23 PM
Post by: M_ray on March 10, 2017, 06:20:29 PM
Easy solution.
Just let the tags be filled. If you draw multiple Elk tags, you get to fill multiple elk tags.
Sounds great but the reality is that most will not even hunt for a cow given a bull permit in their pocket. I shot a cow last year in the muzzy season and passed several legal 3 point or better bucks in Wa and ate the tag because I didn't need the meat. I can see people doing the same once one of the tags are filled :dunno: Who needs or has the space for two elk? I know some will be the exception to the rule but many hunters will not take two elk even given the chance.
I know a lot of people who could use that meat. Friends, Family, Hunting buddies with bad luck, etc.
Lets say you draw a quality and a bull tag, you wouldn't fill both tags if you could?
You have a modern cow and a modern quality tag, 2 separate seasons, I'd love to be in the woods hunting elk that long, who wouldn't?
Or a bull and a cow tag, you see a cow and fill that tag, now your set for meat and can still hunt for that bull of a lifetime knowing your set up if it doesn't happen. You can be picky with no worries about an empty freezer.
I'm just saying make it an option to fill both, right now your just screwed out of a tag
If it's our choice, and you don't need the meat, than don't fill the tag. At least the choice was yours, not the DFW's.
This is the rub, although you may not mind having two elk many would not even want to or have room for two elk. Most wont make the "CHOICE" to take two and lots of tags go unused.
Post by: Browndawg on March 10, 2017, 06:25:40 PM
I would consider applying for a point only as sitting out as you have no chance of drawing. :twocents:That's what I'm talking about. Buy the point. :tup:
Post by: Joe Rothrock on March 10, 2017, 09:22:24 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 10, 2017, 09:32:54 PM
That's not the way i understood bobs response but ok. :chuckle:I would consider applying for a point only as sitting out as you have no chance of drawing. :twocents:That's what I'm talking about. Buy the point. :tup:
Bob i agree with you buying it for points only=definitely not getting drawn. :tup:
Post by: Bob33 on March 10, 2017, 09:39:18 PM
While we're on the subject of points. I hope everyone keeps a watchful eye on they're accumulated points. I just logged on to my DFW account and am having some concerns about how many points are being used. In the past when you hit submit, the system told you how many points were used. Not the case now. However, today I was able to log on and see my points accumulation and luckily all the categories that I apply for are correct. Spring bear is a bit concerning. Last year I applied - not selected - 1 point. This year I applied - I believe 2 points should have been used - my account only shows 1 point????????? Also, I'm 51 years old, not a master hunter, and fortunately not disabled. Somehow I have up to as many as 9 points in the youth, disabled, 65 and over, and master hunter categories. Its a mystery to me. I realize that at times I act like a kid, and it won't be long til I'm 65, and there are days that I feel disabled. Maybe I should keep my mouth shut and take advantage of the points when I become eligible. I hope everyone's points are in order. Good Luck!
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,210304.msg2799467.html#msg2799467 (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,210304.msg2799467.html#msg2799467)
Post by: Bullkllr on March 10, 2017, 09:45:25 PM
Either let the hunter fill both, or run the draw such that if you draw quality you can't also draw bull/buck or antlerless.I'd much rather see the categories reduced to one, personally. That's what stared this whole mess.
Or do what M_ray suggested and make people pick only one category per species. Those that want the trophy bull tags won't be in the way of guys like me that would rather get a cow than a rutted out bull anyway since the cows taste better and antlers are a minimal motivator.
I don't care all that much what gets done, but something to improve the draw odds would be nice.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 10, 2017, 10:19:43 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 10, 2017, 10:21:06 PM
Post by: M_ray on March 10, 2017, 10:55:16 PM
you could improve your draw odds by putting in other states,that being said my draw odds are better for me to draw something whether doe bull or cow if i put in for all. :twocents:
I do the same ... I think we are both on the same page though, less people putting in means better odds for you! ;)
Post by: M_ray on March 10, 2017, 11:04:15 PM
if everyone only put in for one and that one was the same one you want how does it help?
You really didn't just say that did you :chuckle: think about it??? Each person can only pick one, NOT every category. That eliminates them from all the others making the odds better in the categories that have less people applying. Not really hard to understand :dunno: There is no way that given the chance everyone will pick the same one.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 10, 2017, 11:06:36 PM
Post by: M_ray on March 10, 2017, 11:34:21 PM
yes except say everyone wants to get drawn for bull like they do so everyone only puts in for bull because like you say they all pick bull so how does that give you better odds again?
There is not a chance everyone will pick the same thing ... you really don't believe that do you? There are people that were drawn for bull within the last couple years and don't have the points for what they want but perhaps they have 14 points for deer or 20 points for sheep? Do you really think they are going to put in for bull with 1 or 2? :hello:
Post by: Bullkllr on March 11, 2017, 07:22:41 AM
yes except say everyone wants to get drawn for bull like they do so everyone only puts in for bull because like you say they all pick bull so how does that give you better odds again?
There is not a chance everyone will pick the same thing ... you really don't believe that do you? There are people that were drawn for bull within the last couple years and don't have the points for what they want but perhaps they have 14 points for deer or 20 points for sheep? Do you really think they are going to put in for bull with 1 or 2? :hello:
Look at it this way:
Prior to the multiple categories, everyone had to choose the permits they really wanted and/or thought they had a chance to get. Odds were better across the board because there were way fewer total names in each hat.
After the multiple categories came along, many started putting in for everything. Odds in each category went up dramatically. This is true for quality, bull, cow, etc.
Giving everyone their "points" across all categories messed things up even more. Thousands of people with say 10 points were putting in for cow hunts with people who had been drawing those same hunts with 1 or 2 points.
Say a hunter qualifies for a disabled license. Before 2010, he could put in for a good disabled cow hunt and have a really good chance of drawing. Now, that hunter also puts in for quality, bull, regular cow, etc., in addition to the disabled hunt. This is just an example. When my kids were young, they could put in for something like 6 categories for elk alone.
The old system was more simple and better, imo; better odds, no multiple tags.
WDFW likes the roughly 500% increase in $$ the category system generates, so is unlikely to change.
I agree that going back to one category at this point could have undesirable consequences. Now that everyones' points are inflated (by the ridiculous odds created by the multiple category system in the first place), they probably would all put in for quality bull permits, rather than burn those points on a lesser tag. That's what makes the system somewhat FUBAR, and we're probably better off not making any further changes.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 08:26:24 AM
Post by: Bullkllr on March 11, 2017, 08:32:35 AM
wait just a minute,I think i am not on the same wave as some.Are you saying instead of the 3 gmu choices you only get 1?because if i was on the same wave then yes i do think almost everyone would want bull elk,unless you somehow got ahold of all the hunters and said hey dont do that i want to. :chuckle:
I think you're right.
In the old system you had 1 elk category. You could put in for a quality bull as top choice, then put in for others if you wanted. While I preferred that system, going back to it now could very likely do exactly what you said.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 08:58:42 AM
Post by: sumpnz on March 11, 2017, 09:02:19 AM
wait just a minute,I think i am not on the same wave as some.Are you saying instead of the 3 gmu choices you only get 1?because if i was on the same wave then yes i do think almost everyone would want bull elk,unless you somehow got ahold of all the hunters and said hey dont do that i want to. :chuckle:
If they keep all the different categories but you can only apply for 1 each year it will do what M_ray suggests.
Since I'd rather have the higher quality meat, and more frequent opportunity to get said meat, from a cow elk than the horns from a "quality" bull I'd get my nearly annual cow tags because most guys want the horns more than the meat. They'll get to hunt elk in WA every 6-10 years, and those that can afford it will go out of state the rest of the time.
Once my kids are able to start hunting elk with me I might alter that strategy a bit as they'd be putting in for the cow tags so I could concentrate on getting that big bull tag (hey - I like the horns, I just like consistent meat more - if the kids are able to provide the consistent meat with their tags I'll go for the horns).
In the meantime you won't suffer from my competition for the quality tags and I won't suffer the competition from you all for the cow tags.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 09:20:35 AM
Post by: M_ray on March 11, 2017, 09:41:13 AM
wait just a minute,I think i am not on the same wave as some.Are you saying instead of the 3 gmu choices you only get 1?because if i was on the same wave then yes i do think almost everyone would want bull elk,unless you somehow got ahold of all the hunters and said hey dont do that i want to. :chuckle:
You are really delusional if you think that your odds will be worse than they are now. There are lots of guys that will jump to other categories to try for their buck, quality bull or antlerless not to mention the three oil tags. It is statistically impossible to have every person choose the same thing, they never did in the past and they wont now.
Also there have a few threads and polls on here that asked "what if you could hunt just one species or one category which would it be?" And there was plenty of support for all other categories, which would mean less competition for your two bull categories.
wait just a minute,I think i am not on the same wave as some.Are you saying instead of the 3 gmu choices you only get 1?because if i was on the same wave then yes i do think almost everyone would want bull elk,unless you somehow got ahold of all the hunters and said hey dont do that i want to. :chuckle:
I think you're right.
In the old system you had 1 elk category. You could put in for a quality bull as top choice, then put in for others if you wanted. While I preferred that system, going back to it now could very likely do exactly what you said.
Now you would have three elk categories AND there were not preference points then, I wouldn't be in favor of going back to the old system either but a combination of the two would be better than what we have now. :twocents:
also before the rule change there was a lot of whining to change it to what we have now :bash: were going full circle with this topic
Mostly people wanted the preference point system NOT less of a chance the way I remember it? ;)
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 09:48:28 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 09:50:59 AM
Post by: M_ray on March 11, 2017, 10:38:34 AM
you are the delusional one if you think it will change your draw odds by much of a margin.if everyone that you think wont put in for bull puts in for points only to gain points then what is the magic number you get to before you start using your points and everyone that starts putting in for points right now does it at that magic number...............right back here again.no no no the idea of bull oil is the way to go.
In the old system even without points a guy could draw a quality bull tag every 5-8 years and a good one every 3-5 now you have to wait 10+ and some closer to 20! :yike: There were actually more hunters back then and no points and you still drew more often and you think your odds are better now? The numbers just don't add up to match your argument against in fact they support exactly what you want and that is less competition in each category and to draw your bull tag more often. And I know that there are exceptions to the rule and some bull tags are currently drawn now every 3 or 5 but in most cases a really good tag is 10+. The point being is that statistically all across the board every one of them will increase in odds.
There are other states that are doing it this way and they draw more often so this isn't just an experiment or a guess. It is a successful work in progress and as usual the WDFW is on an island doing things completely different than all the others. :twocents:
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 10:58:11 AM
Post by: bobcat on March 11, 2017, 10:59:31 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 11:04:34 AM
Post by: bobcat on March 11, 2017, 11:13:45 AM
i would also be 1 of the hunters putting in for cow but don't you think making bull an oil would make a huge swing in draw odds?
The WDFW won't do that- it would decrease the sale of applications.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 11:14:23 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 11:15:14 AM
They did it with other animals.i would also be 1 of the hunters putting in for cow but don't you think making bull an oil would make a huge swing in draw odds?
The WDFW won't do that- it would decrease the sale of applications.
Post by: bobcat on March 11, 2017, 11:19:37 AM
They did it with other animals.i would also be 1 of the hunters putting in for cow but don't you think making bull an oil would make a huge swing in draw odds?
The WDFW won't do that- it would decrease the sale of applications.
That's because for those other animals there are so few opportunities that it's necessary and hunters support it. But hunters would not support it with elk. I think a good compromise would be a waiting period, if you draw a quality elk (or quality deer) permit. Maybe five years before you can apply again?
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 11:22:44 AM
Post by: bobcat on March 11, 2017, 11:23:49 AM
I like that,as long as you can still buy points :tup:
Nope, can't buy points during a waiting period. I don't like that. Defeats the purpose of having a waiting period.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 11:25:46 AM
never happen without the buying of points though :bash: the revenue drop they would never go for so that will have to be negotiated.changing this would be like getting drawing up the ACA to many what abouts
Post by: M_ray on March 11, 2017, 11:38:01 AM
Also Bobcat you left out one of the biggest reasons for the system we have now which is the biggest reason i say the only way to go is oil. New younger hunters even if they have been hunting their entire childhood years have to start with no points and would have no chance of drawing therefore no interest and that means no future funding for the wildlife.the way it is everyone has the same chance of drawing (more points better chance but a lot of hunters get their tag with min. points) if you just have bad luck that is a personal problem.
Back the old way your dad or grandpa put you in and drew the antlerless tag 1st year and you had success right out of the gate! Now people try and get their sons and daughters involved and they cant get an antlerless tag for a few years. This leaves them first year stuck looking for a buck which we can all agree is harder to harvest and the kids can go a few years with no payoff and they loose interest. I think this has more to do with the lack of interest with future hunters than starting without points. With limiting the choice it would increase doe and cow odds and the youth and old farts would be drawing them every year.
I think everyone can see the current system is broke and not sustainable.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 11:42:24 AM
Post by: M_ray on March 11, 2017, 11:42:47 AM
i would also be 1 of the hunters putting in for cow but don't you think making bull an oil would make a huge swing in draw odds?
The WDFW won't do that- it would decrease the sale of applications.
Easily remedied ... lets say now you put in for 5 categories and it's 15 bucks or one that is 15 bucks you still spend the same amount and the state makes its revenue right? :dunno:
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 11:47:11 AM
no matter what everyone can never agree on everything FOR LONG
Post by: Curly on March 11, 2017, 11:54:41 AM
Post by: M_ray on March 11, 2017, 12:11:10 PM
bye bye elk,maybe R.M.E.F can keep us stocked :bash: for everyone to draw.you are not looking at the big picture and i fear you wont so im done.someone from WDFW can chime in i have hogged this enough.
The elk didn't disappear back when this was reality AND with far more hunters??? :dunno: So how are they going to disappear now? The percentage of harvest rate and the amount of animals harvested has remained relatively even across the board. I have that somewhere and I'll have to find it. A few years back now on here a system change was suggested and we found data that supported the harvest rates did not change much at all with more people hunting, and when there was greater chance of draw, not to mention the seasons were longer back then as well. The herd size for both deer and elk were larger than they are now and people were drawing more often so I'm pretty sure they are not going to be wiped out anytime soon.
You are forgetting that you are not going to have the same amount of people per category??? Your fears would be reality if you increased everyones take and odds for each species and let everyone stay in each. If people have to choose that is going to eliminate the amount of people in each one increasing your odds in the one you choose. Statistically it cant happen the way you are thinking. You really aren't loosing anything but you are gaining in the one you want to target and history has already proved that people are not going to all choose the same thing every year.
Post by: M_ray on March 11, 2017, 12:30:02 PM
oh i cant not reply to that.you want to make it a rich mans sport?i know its only 7.5 more but have you looked at the already rise in tag costs?
no matter what everyone can never agree on everything FOR LONG
If you haven't been playing along it's already is a rich mans sport ;)
I never suggested a rate increase...
You are assuming that a person only puts in for one category now which would double his cost. If everyone was putting in for one category we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. The reality is 90% put in for all of them, I know I do. So once again you are going to pay 3 bucks a category for 5 that equals 15 or have to choose one at 15 and you spend the same amount so there is no difference really.
We all know the state isn't going to give up revenue so any proposal is going to have to come with an equal or close to dollar amount attached so its economics 101. It's a no brainer to pay the same amount now for a greater chance at a draw than I currently have. Again you may be the exception to the rule and in some cases someone may pay more and some may even pay less but it will increase your odds for the one thing you want.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 01:37:17 PM
2004-34.19 million
2005-34.67 2013-36.39
2006-36.13 2014-35.24
2007-35.61 2015-35.85
2008-35.18
2009-45.28
2010-34.08
2011-34.66
2012-35.71
Post by: M_ray on March 11, 2017, 01:54:03 PM
from 2004 to 2015 --------------06 09 13 are the only years where more hunters than 2015 2009 had 45.28 million 2004 had 34.19 million nationwide. 2015 had 35.85 million (you were saying) these are nationwide numbers.more gun owners now also THANK YOU OBAMA LOL.
2004-34.19 million
2005-34.67 2013-36.39
2006-36.13 2014-35.24
2007-35.61 2015-35.85
2008-35.18
2009-45.28
2010-34.08
2011-34.66
2012-35.71
Your numbers don't mean a thing ... in order to compare evenly you need to show numbers from WA only, since it is WA draw odds that we are talking about right? Wa had more hunters in the 70's and 80's and longer seasons than we do now and harvest statistics proved to be relatively the same, Lets at least compare apples to apples? :dunno:
Post by: Oh Mah on March 11, 2017, 02:23:13 PM
Post by: Curly on March 12, 2017, 09:08:36 AM
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/fhw11-wa.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjY7Yr0ptHSAhXnw1QKHcr-C-8QFghAMAQ&usg=AFQjCNFdgoe-trjXeAMnjdEcfYGrPi1sMQ&sig2=YENrkWrxb5FAwHFdV10yqA
Post by: LabChamp on March 12, 2017, 09:45:10 AM
Post by: BULLBLASTER on March 12, 2017, 10:56:17 AM
Not sure how to make that happen with the possibility of drawing multiple permits tho.
Post by: M_ray on March 12, 2017, 03:21:45 PM
Here's some stats:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/fhw11-wa.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjY7Yr0ptHSAhXnw1QKHcr-C-8QFghAMAQ&usg=AFQjCNFdgoe-trjXeAMnjdEcfYGrPi1sMQ&sig2=YENrkWrxb5FAwHFdV10yqA
Thanks Curly I did have this around somewhere saved on my last computer so I have seen this one before. If you look close at Curly's link on page 23 you'll see that between 2001 and 2011 hunting has dropped by nearly 10k in WA and by now probably has eclipsed 10k. Under a better plan where odds are better as they were in the past you can get that doe or cow tag just about every year and not have to wait 5-6. Youth would be able to draw and have success immediately and thus keep their interest in hunting. :twocents:
Post by: Oh Mah on March 12, 2017, 08:46:18 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on March 12, 2017, 08:48:01 PM
One change that I think would help a ton is make permits take the place of your general hunt. If you draw a permit that hunt is what you get that year. No general season option with it. That would make people think about what they want to apply for and have less permits go unhunted. :twocents:This would be an improvement to the plan already in place.if you draw antlerless you can't shoot a buck.if you draw cow you can;t shoot spike etc. :tup:
Not sure how to make that happen with the possibility of drawing multiple permits tho.
Post by: Oh Mah on March 12, 2017, 09:40:29 PM
91-246 k
96-271 k
01-227 k
06-182 k
11-218 k
Post by: Oh Mah on March 12, 2017, 09:59:12 PM
Post by: Curly on March 13, 2017, 08:45:14 AM
I think I've read more recent stats on hunter numbers declining.........can't find that article right now, but here's and older article:
Number of U.S. hunters dwindles (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/environment/2007-09-02-fewer-hunters_N.htm)
The Associated Press
Hunters remain a powerful force in American society, as evidenced by the presidential candidates who routinely pay them homage, but their ranks are shrinking dramatically and wildlife agencies worry increasingly about the loss of sorely needed license-fee revenue.
New figures from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service show that the number of hunters 16 and older declined by 10% between 1996 and 2006 — from 14 million to about 12.5 million. The drop was most acute in New England, the Rocky Mountains, and the Pacific states, which lost 400,000 hunters in that span.
The primary reasons, experts say, are the loss of hunting land to urbanization plus a perception by many families that they can't afford the time or costs that hunting entails.
"To recruit new hunters, it takes hunting families," said Gregg Patterson of Ducks Unlimited. "I was introduced to it by my father, he was introduced to it by his father. When you have boys and girls without a hunter in the household, it's tough to give them the experience."
Some animal-welfare activists welcome the trend, noting that it coincides with a 13% increase in wildlife watching since 1996. But hunters and state wildlife agencies, as they prepare for the fall hunting season, say the drop is worrisome.
"It's hunters who are the most willing to give their own dollar for wildlife conservation," Patterson said.
Compounding the problem, the number of Americans who fish also has dropped sharply — down 15%, from 35.2 million in 1996 to 30 million in 2006, according to the latest version of a national survey that the Fish and Wildlife Service conducts every five years.
Of the 50 state wildlife agencies, most rely on hunting and fishing license fees for the bulk of their revenue, and only a handful receive significant infusions from their state's general fund.
"They're trying to take care of all wildlife and all habitats on a shoestring budget," said Rachel Brittin of the Washington-based Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies.
In New Hampshire, only multiple fee increases — which produced numerous complaints — have enabled the Fish and Game Department to keep revenues robust. Its ranks of registered hunters has dropped from 83,292 in 1996 to 61,076 last year, according to department spokeswoman Judy Stokes.
"We hear concerns about land access," Stokes said. "People grew up hunting — you went out with your family, your uncle. And now you go back, and there's a shopping plaza or a housing development. Some of your favorite places just aren't available anymore."
National hunting expert Mark Damian Duda, executive director of Virginia-based research firm Responsive Management, says America's increasingly urban and suburban culture makes it less friendly toward the pastime.
"You don't just get up and go hunting one day — your father or father-type figure has to have hunted," Duda said. "In a rural environment, where your friends and family hunt, you feel comfortable with guns, you feel comfortable with killing an animal."
Post by: Allen23 on April 19, 2017, 11:33:02 AM
Post by: Roperfive88 on April 20, 2017, 05:56:52 PM
Post by: polishstunner on April 20, 2017, 08:53:26 PM