Post by: swanny on February 02, 2017, 08:49:42 AM
Post by: Shannon on February 02, 2017, 09:29:48 AM
Post by: swanny on February 02, 2017, 09:34:54 AM
I have three and addictedtohunting has one with I believe maybe another coming soon. I was a lab guy before but I won't own another breed now. Ask away and I'll try to answer any questions. Either here or PM.
Wow, good to know. I've always been a lab guy myself, but have been interested in a GSP also. Was told it was a quality mix of both breed types, and I have to admit I just love the look of them.
How are they around kids and other people, well mannered and mild temper? We attempted to help in the re-homing process of a Viszla at one point but it was to attached to being just my wife and I, hated having other people around to the point where it would growl and snap at them for no reason.
Are your dogs from the same breeder? Looks like all of the local ones sort of work together with their breeding stock.
Post by: JLS on February 02, 2017, 10:02:41 AM
I have three and addictedtohunting has one with I believe maybe another coming soon. I was a lab guy before but I won't own another breed now. Ask away and I'll try to answer any questions. Either here or PM.
Wow, good to know. I've always been a lab guy myself, but have been interested in a GSP also. Was told it was a quality mix of both breed types, and I have to admit I just love the look of them.
How are they around kids and other people, well mannered and mild temper? We attempted to help in the re-homing process of a Viszla at one point but it was to attached to being just my wife and I, hated having other people around to the point where it would growl and snap at them for no reason.
Are your dogs from the same breeder? Looks like all of the local ones sort of work together with their breeding stock.
That's a bummer to hear about the Viszla. My guess is those behaviors were likely due to environment rather than breed specific. The dog probably was not socialized well as a puppy and was left alone a lot. Hard to say.
I think you will find many of the versatile breeds can and will be fantastic family dogs given the right environment. They are very smart, and young children can have a difficult time getting them to mind and behave. Mine is a completely different dog when I am around vs. when he is with my kids and/or wife. Consistency and some time spent training are key.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 02, 2017, 09:23:30 PM
Post by: ForestDump on February 02, 2017, 11:54:09 PM
Post by: addicted2hunting on February 03, 2017, 01:38:05 AM
Post by: kball4 on February 03, 2017, 06:24:44 AM
Post by: swanny on February 03, 2017, 09:14:52 AM
Post by: Shannon on February 03, 2017, 11:56:33 AM
A PP is cheaper than a well bred lab also. You might have to wait longer for a Pudelpointer though. All of my dogs are from Cedarwoods Kennels. Hopefully that helps.
Post by: JLS on February 03, 2017, 12:03:32 PM
I don't believe in Happy's comment. They are easy to train IMO. There is a lot to train with a good versatile, more so than just retrieving games, if you want your dog steady to wing,shot, and fall. I wouldn't consider a lab a versatile breed but more of a specialist. Yes they will hunt many types of birds but they aren't considered a versatile breed. I like labs also but I get a rush when my dogs are running full bore across a field and slam on point and hold it like a statue until I get there. Hard to describe until you've seen it in person. At maturity my dogs retrieve just as good as any lab I've ever owned with a little more style in doing it. Labs as puppies are better at marking and retrieving at a young age. At least the ones I have trained but after 12 months or so the Pudelpointers catch up.
A PP is cheaper than a well bred lab also. You might have to wait longer for a Pudelpointer though. All of my dogs are from Cedarwoods Kennels. Hopefully that helps.
I don't want to get into a dog breed debate, but I agree 110% on your statements. I would prefer a versatile dog any day of the week over a lab, and I've had both. To each their own.
Post by: Colin on February 03, 2017, 02:13:56 PM
Yep got my second coming in April. My PP will do it all from sitting in frozen water and breaking ice to retrieve all the way to hunting chukar on the Columbia breaks. I've yet to find a lab that will beat him to a retrieve in any condition. As for trainability, they are incredibly intelligent and love to please. He was my first dog that I tried to train myself and it's been a fun journey. They are very fun and clownish in demeanor and love their family.Now we gonna have to have a race! Lol
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Post by: addicted2hunting on February 03, 2017, 04:59:57 PM
Post by: addicted2hunting on February 03, 2017, 05:03:28 PM
Post by: Colin on February 03, 2017, 07:20:41 PM
I gotta get Cedars PZ 1 UT in navhda this spring then Imma get with you Colin and see how Andy got you going on blinds so I can start running Seasoned.Any time you're more than welcome. No promises on my teaching though.
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Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 04, 2017, 11:22:52 AM
This isn't a my dog can do this better than your dog comment. Just what I've seen over time. Guys like Shannon know what he's doing training. Average new comer, its a bad idea. Labs are the most versatile, easy to get and capable dogs for all conditions. Not to mention, the ability to get a good bill of health is easiest and lowest cost.
Safety in numbers is a reality in breedings.
Post by: addicted2hunting on February 04, 2017, 12:07:23 PM
Having lived at a kennel for years which focused on pointing dogs and being pretty deep in the retriever world, the majority of problem dogs are variety breeds. It's basic, there are few breeders which gives you few options and even fewer dogs to view from parents as a baseline. I've seen a lot of low desire pp's, spinones and some downright nasty attitude draughts and whp's.A lot of low desire PP? I have seen a bunch of PPs in the NAVHDA program and id say 20% of them were slugs but the others by far have more desire than any lab I have seen in hunting and in the HRC arena. Versatility means it can do everything. the amount of labs that would duck hunt the AM in freezing temps then hunt the snake river breaks in the afternoon for chukar are very rare. Just in this state I could show you atleast 10 PPS that could do that. Labs are a specialist not a versatile dog. DDs and WPGs will be much more of a serious demeanor dog especially a german bred DD. They will also generally be a very fur sharp dog as well. Thats what they breed for in germany. Spinones I can say that yes they wont be even close to those standards for desire. PPs are by far the most intelligent sporting breed I have come across.
This isn't a my dog can do this better than your dog comment. Just what I've seen over time. Guys like Shannon know what he's doing training. Average new comer, its a bad idea. Labs are the most versatile, easy to get and capable dogs for all conditions. Not to mention, the ability to get a good bill of health is easiest and lowest cost.
Safety in numbers is a reality in breedings.
Post by: rasbo on February 04, 2017, 12:28:18 PM
Post by: addicted2hunting on February 04, 2017, 12:35:00 PM
I would love to own one,but my are they pricey..I think they are awesome dogs for a guy that likes to do upland and waterfowl..ya without a doubt they are spendy. The specialist breeds of course will shine more in their element but for a guy that wants to do all with the same dog, it is hard to beat.
Post by: Shannon on February 04, 2017, 02:42:29 PM
Happy-I'm not going to get with the my dog breed is better than yours debate. I'm glad when people are passionate about what they have but to say you have seen lots of low desire pudelpointers I'll have to call BS. Unless you lived in or around Boise you aren't going to find lots of PP's anywhere especially at the kennel you worked at. I only know of less than 20 PP's in this state and I own three of them. Not saying I know them all but there are very few. I seek out PP's to watch run and I haven't seen lots of them anywhere. My dogs desire is high enough that I have to watch out for them that they don't kill themselves. Fanatical desire to retrieve especially if what they are after has fur or feathers. You stick with your labs and I'll stick with my Pudelpointers and we will both be happy. I just really enjoy watching pointing dogs lock up on point like statues with style until I go in for the flush. The only thing that tops the enjoyment I get out of that is watching my kids play sports. Labs never gave me that and never will. When I use them in the duck blind I don't have any drop off with the retrieves compared to any other breed I've ever owned. The dash and happiness they get from the retrieve rivals or beats most labs I've been around. The pointing dog games I've done I get more enjoyment from than wearing white coats and throwing bumpers and ducks all day doing multiples and blinds at retriever games. To each there own but this former lab guy will not be getting another sporting breed other than a Pudelpointer any time soon. I do get enjoyment out of watching a retriever that is well trained do his business but that doesn't compare to me when I watch pointers at work. I just like watching well trained dogs period though. I get a kick out of watching sheep dogs do there thing in Sylvana when they have there test or trials or whatever they call them. Just stick with what you like but don't bash another breed especially when you have seen very few of them.
Post by: Colin on February 04, 2017, 03:43:25 PM
Idk seems like a lab trained for strictly Upland is at a huge disadvantage in the retriever games and a PP strictly trained for waterfowl will be at that same disadvantage in the Upland games. We train for different things regardless of the dog. Lab people want control and drive while PP people want independence and drive.
On dog prices I've been watching for lab pups a lot lately and there are lots of health clearance and MH/HRCH pups available for 1000 to 1200. Only time I've seen dogs listed at 2000 or more it was FC to an FC or NFC to MH/QAA. Think there was a recent NFC bred to a MH? As a repeat litter for 2500. I have no idea what the prices for PP'S with health clearances and national titles?
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Post by: addicted2hunting on February 04, 2017, 06:55:50 PM
Isn't the difference between the two types or dogs, Upland and waterfowl based on the training? Imagine a well trained lab on a navda duck hunt. The lab would take a line from the handler, run through old falls, hit every piece of water on the line, blow through every piece of cover and maintain its line without hunting until it runs out the back of the field.Training is a part of the versatility but PPs having English pointer in them will cover ground and hunt in a similar fashion in the upland and pointing with more style than a pointing lab would. And to add to that they have the water and retrieving drive that a waterfowler desires. They get that from the german hunting pudel. Where the lab lacks in the versatility realm is the inherent instinct to point birds and have the athletic endurance to handle long periods of covering ground in an extreme upland environment. But yes me training for retriever tests is counter productive to the versatile dog tests. That's why guys like me don't get heavy into the retriever tests until our navhda UT is done because you don't want to put too much control on a navhda dogs blind retrieve area because it'll hurt that score. But the navhda invitational is like the same stuff in a retriever test and a AKC upland test all in one without a independent duck search like in the utility. Instead the have a 100 yd blind across water to a duck drag that they have to track 30yds to find the bird. Doing this you want the dog to be able to handle like a retriever if they get off course.
Idk seems like a lab trained for strictly Upland is at a huge disadvantage in the retriever games and a PP strictly trained for waterfowl will be at that same disadvantage in the Upland games. We train for different things regardless of the dog. Lab people want control and drive while PP people want independence and drive.
On dog prices I've been watching for lab pups a lot lately and there are lots of health clearance and MH/HRCH pups available for 1000 to 1200. Only time I've seen dogs listed at 2000 or more it was FC to an FC or NFC to MH/QAA. Think there was a recent NFC bred to a MH? As a repeat litter for 2500. I have no idea what the prices for PP'S with health clearances and national titles?
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Post by: constructeur on February 04, 2017, 08:44:37 PM
I've seen a lot of low desire pp's,No you haven't. If so name the kennels and dogs.
spinones and
D U D E. Really? You want to name an esoteric breed that was developed to work for small game birds on a seriously tiny parcel of land at a very very very slow pace (the developed areas of Italy!) and say that they are low desire? That's how they are supposed to be! When in Rome guy!
some downright nasty attitude draughts and whp's.
Yeah, well we've all seen those, and Teufel hunden are like that. That's what the Germans want and need and people buy them thinking they are getting the uber alles gun dog, and often they are buying way more dog than they will need or handle. But we aren't talking DD's and DK's right now are we?
There are lots of great labs out there and lots of good dogs and great folks running HRC, but the harsh truth is that none of the large sanctions recognize the lab as a versatile breed, and the foundation breeds of the Pudelpointer lend itself to a dog that is both faster afoot, and will have a longer time durability in a true upland hunt (not that planted bird flat ground stuff) We have a much milder climate than the midwest, so the coat thickness when waterfowling is really a non issue as well. I've seen so many versatiles that will flat out blow the doors off labs in the water it's not even a real talking point any longer.
Like it or not, with information being available to more folks today, the sun has set on the Labrador Retriever being the zenith of gun dogs. They're still a great dog and option, but they are no longer the top.
Post by: Colin on February 04, 2017, 09:21:28 PM
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Post by: Colin on February 04, 2017, 09:37:23 PM
Strictly talking waterfowling I don't think a veristile is going to beat a lab, if only because they are trained so differently. In a straight marking scenario a solid veristile can match a solid lab at hunt test distances but running blinds a trained lab is going to have a significant advantage due to its training if we are judging to test/trial standards. If I hunted upland I'd have a pointer. I only hunt waterfowl so I have a lab... just my thoughts as we are all probably missing hunting season right now and getting all ramped up for our respective training seasons.
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Post by: Colin on February 04, 2017, 09:40:47 PM
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Post by: addicted2hunting on February 04, 2017, 10:08:49 PM
I'm gonna have to come train with you guys as I don't know much about upland training and don't get to see those kinds of dogs work. Lemme know when you guys have a test. I'd be interested in watching!Absolutely colin. Our first test is may 19th to 21st. We will train a bunch this year and you can come out anytime.
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Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 04, 2017, 10:10:15 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 04, 2017, 10:16:06 PM
Post by: addicted2hunting on February 04, 2017, 10:18:27 PM
We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think a top level PP is gonna out retrieve a top level lab. The blind work you are comparing is apples and oranges and is very different than how a lab is trained to handle on a blind. Who knows maybe I'm wrong as i have only seen 2 PP's run marks.
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Yes that's where the training differences come in not the breed itself. Could I train my PP to handle 300yd blinds under complete control like a lab? Yes he is totally capable but once you go that way you can't go back. After I'm done testing Navhda Iwith cedar he will be trained like a lab to handle long blinds thus making him equal to a lab waterfowl hunting. My dog will do a 300 yd blind now but it won't be to test standards but if you shoot a winged cripple out at skagit headquarters and it goes 300yds into the cattail tidal marsh my dog I say back and he wil search an entire 300yd radius until he finds that duck and I can sit and drink coffee until he comes back and delivers to hand. That whole time I have no sight of him. Most labs guys would leave that bird.
Post by: addicted2hunting on February 04, 2017, 10:21:28 PM
All Pp's are high drive and amazing just like all labs including show dogs are high drive... You're right. Lol.No not ALL PPs are high drive. Just as not all labs are lazy. You just gotta know the kennels you are buying from. I'll show you what drive in a PP is like...
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 04, 2017, 10:23:05 PM
Post by: addicted2hunting on February 04, 2017, 10:28:03 PM
Post by: addicted2hunting on February 04, 2017, 10:29:21 PM
Post by: Colin on February 05, 2017, 06:56:56 AM
Lemme know where it's at.I'm gonna have to come train with you guys as I don't know much about upland training and don't get to see those kinds of dogs work. Lemme know when you guys have a test. I'd be interested in watching!Absolutely colin. Our first test is may 19th to 21st. We will train a bunch this year and you can come out anytime.
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Post by: Colin on February 05, 2017, 07:08:49 AM
I mean a 300 yard duck search is pretty impressive. I'm sure that skill and his natural abiltu have been carfully nurtured and trained to bring that out of him. I totally respect that type of skill in a dog and a trainer.We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think a top level PP is gonna out retrieve a top level lab. The blind work you are comparing is apples and oranges and is very different than how a lab is trained to handle on a blind. Who knows maybe I'm wrong as i have only seen 2 PP's run marks.
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Yes that's where the training differences come in not the breed itself. Could I train my PP to handle 300yd blinds under complete control like a lab? Yes he is totally capable but once you go that way you can't go back. After I'm done testing Navhda Iwith cedar he will be trained like a lab to handle long blinds thus making him equal to a lab waterfowl hunting. My dog will do a 300 yd blind now but it won't be to test standards but if you shoot a winged cripple out at skagit headquarters and it goes 300yds into the cattail tidal marsh my dog I say back and he wil search an entire 300yd radius until he finds that duck and I can sit and drink coffee until he comes back and delivers to hand. That whole time I have no sight of him. Most labs guys would leave that bird.
But in that hunting scenario I wouldn't leave that bird, cause I don't shoot them unless they are decoying and will fall nearby, when I don't have the means to retrieve that bird. In a field we take lots of shots on the edge when birds are wary, resulting in some cripples that sail 400 - 500 yards. In that situation I want my dog to no off all the birds down in the deekes, flailing and crippled or dead, and go after that cripple or stunned bird that went down just in line with the telephone pole on the other half of a 100 acre field. A few minutes and I a have another bird in the bag and we are blinding back up working birds again.
I honestly don't know which type of blind is better. I think you're right about the "once you go that way you can't go back". At this point I don't think I could train my lab to put on a duck search like that, at least not with the same style, without seriously hurting his other blinds. I don't know if a dog that's been carfully trained to do duck searches to that level can be trained to run a traditional blind at the same level as a lab. Not saying you cant do it. Its just counter to what the dogs already been taught. I think this why most don't train for the upland, last series of the Grand till the day before. It messes with the dogs regular blinds too much. It will be interesting to see how Cedar does with regular blinds as I've not seen a trained upland dog be taught this.
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Post by: addicted2hunting on February 05, 2017, 07:57:27 AM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 05, 2017, 09:23:46 AM
Well mine does 300 yds in the marsh on cripples without me rooting a whistle and he doesn't even have to see me. All I say is heel... aim him and say back and he disappears. About 75% of the time he delivers the cripple to hand after about 30 mins of tearing the cattails up like a bulldozer...
Trailing a wounded bird and a blind has no relation. Trailing is fun. Blind running is 100% control. I've trained with a top navhda dog and he doesn't run blinds in any way similar to a standard retriever protocol.
Post by: constructeur on February 05, 2017, 09:55:50 AM
We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think a top level PP is gonna out retrieve a top level lab. The blind work you are comparing is apples and oranges and is very different than how a lab is trained to handle on a blind. Who knows maybe I'm wrong as i have only seen 2 PP's run marks.
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All respect here Colin. I'm not sure how you hunt, but i'm often in tidal water at a river or slough mouth, and if we do shoot a bird poorly and it falls at 150+ yards, not only can I generally not see that, I'm not going to send a dog into something I'm not sure of, on the swim of a lifetime across a multitude of currents. We'd just fire up the boat and go get em' at that point. So it really comes down to short 50-100 yard retrieves, if that, and the versatiles handle those just fine. No top level triple dipply blind across a cigar pond with extra gravy on the side type retrieves necessary.
My comments about out retrieving, I mean most of the versatiles, especially the local PP's, will out 'leg' a lab and hang paw for paw on water marks.
I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong; if I'm proved so this Summer, I'll be the first to say from there on out that the local versatiles are retrieving nearly as well as labs, or whatever we find out.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 05, 2017, 10:25:06 AM
Post by: Bluemoon on February 05, 2017, 10:26:01 AM
Also to breed according to the P.C. of N.A. your dog also has to pass a VJP & BIT test (Breed Improvement Test) before the age of 5 or you are not allowed to let that dog into the gene pool.
I personally have been fortunate to train and hunt PP's from both registries and you will not go wrong with either. As far as "my PP will out mark, retrieve or what ever else your Lab" all I can say is I look forward to the day when we could somehow have a Hunt WA BRING IT ON DAY. Because there are an amazing amount of outstanding dogs and breeds owned by some great people on here..
Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 05, 2017, 10:33:18 AM
Post by: RC3 on February 05, 2017, 10:59:23 AM
Post by: Colin on February 05, 2017, 11:59:50 AM
Honestly I hunt fields 95% of the time. So I always see the falls and I usually send my dog on the long blind first. I only got my floaters wet twice this past season and both times there was not tall cover surrounding so I just don't encounter those situations.We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think a top level PP is gonna out retrieve a top level lab. The blind work you are comparing is apples and oranges and is very different than how a lab is trained to handle on a blind. Who knows maybe I'm wrong as i have only seen 2 PP's run marks.
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All respect here Colin. I'm not sure how you hunt, but i'm often in tidal water at a river or slough mouth, and if we do shoot a bird poorly and it falls at 150+ yards, not only can I generally not see that, I'm not going to send a dog into something I'm not sure of, on the swim of a lifetime across a multitude of currents. We'd just fire up the boat and go get em' at that point. So it really comes down to short 50-100 yard retrieves, if that, and the versatiles handle those just fine. No top level triple dipply blind across a cigar pond with extra gravy on the side type retrieves necessary.
My comments about out retrieving, I mean most of the versatiles, especially the local PP's, will out 'leg' a lab and hang paw for paw on water marks.
I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong; if I'm proved so this Summer, I'll be the first to say from there on out that the local versatiles are retrieving nearly as well as labs, or whatever we find out.
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Post by: addicted2hunting on February 05, 2017, 12:22:55 PM
Well typically that bird lands about 150yds from you so there is no scent on the cattails for them to trail. And you can't see a dog in cattails except the tops of the brush moving. Standard protocol for blinds is impossible in a heavy cattail environment.Well mine does 300 yds in the marsh on cripples without me rooting a whistle and he doesn't even have to see me. All I say is heel... aim him and say back and he disappears. About 75% of the time he delivers the cripple to hand after about 30 mins of tearing the cattails up like a bulldozer...
Trailing a wounded bird and a blind has no relation. Trailing is fun. Blind running is 100% control. I've trained with a top navhda dog and he doesn't run blinds in any way similar to a standard retriever protocol.
Post by: addicted2hunting on February 05, 2017, 12:31:12 PM
Post by: addicted2hunting on February 05, 2017, 12:34:32 PM
Just to throw more into this conversation for the original OP of this thread, when searching for PP's there is also two registries for this breed. The group of breeders between Idaho and Oregon breed outstanding bird dogs there is no denying that. They breed and register and test through NAVHDA. There is also the Pudlepointer Club of North America that follow a more strict German testing and breeding program more like the Deutsch-Drahthaar. Where the dog is also tested on on fur. (Which is something to consider if you have a family cat.)Richard that would be a fun day. Timed marked retrieves, timed doubles and triples. Upland field. Tracking, duck search and all that.
Also to breed according to the P.C. of N.A. your dog also has to pass a VJP & BIT test (Breed Improvement Test) before the age of 5 or you are not allowed to let that dog into the gene pool.
I personally have been fortunate to train and hunt PP's from both registries and you will not go wrong with either. As far as "my PP will out mark, retrieve or what ever else your Lab" all I can say is I look forward to the day when we could somehow have a Hunt WA BRING IT ON DAY. Because there are an amazing amount of outstanding dogs and breeds owned by some great people on here..
Post by: Shannon on February 05, 2017, 12:36:45 PM
I will side with the camp that the average area I duck hunt in doesn't allow me to give hand signals beyond 50 yards or less simply because I can't see them or the bird. Maybe the next guy hunts in something different and a different approach is better. To each there own. I am very convinced that if you take a PP from day one and train them like a lab they would do equally as well as any lab would do. I don't know of anyone that does that though. There has been some pretty successful PP's in the retrieving realm but its usually as an after thought to traditional pointing training.
Post by: addicted2hunting on February 05, 2017, 12:45:33 PM
I was never implying that my dog could do retrieving test better than a lab. I don't train for that level of retrieving with pointers. What I was saying is that they have the basic ability to do what labs do if trained accordingly equally as well. I like to see the independence in a pointer verses the control of retrievers. A perfect day for me is hunting all day and saying very few commands during that time. I don't get off on giving direction and hand signals all the way to a blind retrieve anymore. I prefer to give the command and let the dog do there thing. If they get off line I don't care. As long as they have the drive to stay out there until finding the bird or I call them back. Nothing short of that.Well said. We know of a PP that was a navhda VC, HRCH, and a NASTRA champion all by the age of 4 yrs old....
I will side with the camp that the average area I duck hunt in doesn't allow me to give hand signals beyond 50 yards or less simply because I can't see them or the bird. Maybe the next guy hunts in something different and a different approach is better. To each there own. I am very convinced that if you take a PP from day one and train them like a lab they would do equally as well as any lab would do. I don't know of anyone that does that though. There has been some pretty successful PP's in the retrieving realm but its usually as an after thought to traditional pointing training.
Post by: Colin on February 05, 2017, 12:52:34 PM
I was never implying that my dog could do retrieving test better than a lab. I don't train for that level of retrieving with pointers. What I was saying is that they have the basic ability to do what labs do if trained accordingly equally as well. I like to see the independence in a pointer verses the control of retrievers. A perfect day for me is hunting all day and saying very few commands during that time. I don't get off on giving direction and hand signals all the way to a blind retrieve anymore. I prefer to give the command and let the dog do there thing. If they get off line I don't care. As long as they have the drive to stay out there until finding the bird or I call them back. Nothing short of that.I mean that all depends on your standards in the retriever world. MH is gonna look down its nose at HRCH while HRCH is gonna look down at a MH and a FC/AFC is gonna look down on both. Anybody know if a PP has entered a UKC Grand?
I will side with the camp that the average area I duck hunt in doesn't allow me to give hand signals beyond 50 yards or less simply because I can't see them or the bird. Maybe the next guy hunts in something different and a different approach is better. To each there own. I am very convinced that if you take a PP from day one and train them like a lab they would do equally as well as any lab would do. I don't know of anyone that does that though. There has been some pretty successful PP's in the retrieving realm but its usually as an after thought to traditional pointing training.
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Post by: addicted2hunting on February 05, 2017, 12:59:08 PM
Post by: Colin on February 05, 2017, 01:19:37 PM
No grand (yet)😉. I hope to one day with one of my PPs.That'd be pretty sweet! Wished they have one on this side of the rockies.
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Post by: addicted2hunting on February 05, 2017, 01:33:00 PM
Ya that would be nice... it's like our invitational they have on the other side of the country...No grand (yet)😉. I hope to one day with one of my PPs.That'd be pretty sweet! Wished they have one on this side of the rockies.
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Post by: Happy Gilmore on February 05, 2017, 11:10:57 PM
I was never implying that my dog could do retrieving test better than a lab. I don't train for that level of retrieving with pointers. What I was saying is that they have the basic ability to do what labs do if trained accordingly equally as well. I like to see the independence in a pointer verses the control of retrievers. A perfect day for me is hunting all day and saying very few commands during that time. I don't get off on giving direction and hand signals all the way to a blind retrieve anymore. I prefer to give the command and let the dog do there thing. If they get off line I don't care. As long as they have the drive to stay out there until finding the bird or I call them back. Nothing short of that.I mean that all depends on your standards in the retriever world. MH is gonna look down its nose at HRCH while HRCH is gonna look down at a MH and a FC/AFC is gonna look down on both. Anybody know if a PP has entered a UKC Grand?
I will side with the camp that the average area I duck hunt in doesn't allow me to give hand signals beyond 50 yards or less simply because I can't see them or the bird. Maybe the next guy hunts in something different and a different approach is better. To each there own. I am very convinced that if you take a PP from day one and train them like a lab they would do equally as well as any lab would do. I don't know of anyone that does that though. There has been some pretty successful PP's in the retrieving realm but its usually as an after thought to traditional pointing training.
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I don't think anyone is looking down on it Colin. They are all different. Each their own thing and I'm happy to see anyone doing stuff that involves them with working their dog. Chose what you like and do what you find fun. I look down on people who look down on what other folks chose to do. I'm happy when I see people having a good time doing what they enjoy and have fun with their dogs. That's cool.
Post by: constructeur on February 06, 2017, 06:33:41 AM
Honestly I hunt fields 95% of the time. So I always see the falls and I usually send my dog on the long blind first. I only got my floaters wet twice this past season and both times there was not tall cover surrounding so I just don't encounter those situations.
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Right on. If you're interested, feel free to invite yourself a long on an upland hunt this year too..it doesn't just have to be a training/test GTG.
Post by: dbh411 on June 30, 2017, 06:16:57 PM
Post by: tlbradford on July 03, 2017, 01:45:06 PM
Oh common Richard... You wouldn't even take on my old fat brood bitch xhesapeake on a timed upland bird finding bet :)
Well, if that is the test, I would put up my Weim. I would even give you great odds!
I love these conversations, because it gets soon-to-be dog owners thinking about their purchase, rather than just going out and impulse buying a dog that will be in your life for 10-15 years. That is a big commitment. When you put it into that perspective, the initial cost of the dog is low compared to what you will spend on food, etc. I always advise people to buy a dog that will fit into their living situation and ability to care for it, not for the type of hunting dog they may want. Buy from a reputable breeder. That extra dollar amount up front is typically worth it. I wish people were able to be completely impartial when giving experience on dog breeds, but that rarely happens. Everyone usually exaggerates the good qualities, and downplays the poor ones. dbh411 and the OP - I would love to hear what you end up with.
Post by: Shannon on September 14, 2017, 03:34:18 PM
Fishmaker-you wouldn't be giving one of your pups away to a retiring game warden would you? If so, I know him and look forward to seeing your pup.
Post by: addicted2hunting on September 14, 2017, 07:25:34 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on September 14, 2017, 10:20:35 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on September 14, 2017, 10:34:24 PM
And, as I teased Richard before in this thread about trying to get him and other pointer guys at a pointer field trial to battle it out with my old Chesapeake bitch in the pointer bird field, it was my front yard at the time which was also used as the pointer HT and trial bird field. My bitch got to clean up hundreds if not thousands of left over birds after every pointer HT and trial. No way, no how anyone walking on the property with a dog could find more than her. Not a chance in hell. It was her yard and she knew where the birds went. They don't forget.
That brings me to my comment to bring experience into the discussion. My old bitch couldn't be beat in her front yard by any pointer anywhere in the world. It was her front yard, she knew where to find the birds and how to find them fast. This is the same with any dog who is experienced wherever that experience might be. It could be that guide you paid in NoDak with a shorthair on grouse. The dog does it every day in the same places. Birds are found in the same places on the same property no matter if they are wild or pen raised.
The guys who go boasting they train on the same "wild" ground day in day out blah blah blah... when you go hunt in SoDak and Nodak(or the guys that train there) the wild birds get found in the same spots day in day out because like fishing, there are fishy spots, birdy spots ect. Birds have habits, birds are in certain places they like, dogs and humans alike learn to find those spots pretty quick. Dog learns how to work birds fast. That's the easiest part in the entire world of dog training. *censored*, if the dog likes a feather you can teach it to work a bird.
If you're pheasant hunting, do you hunt the disced corn or, hunt the plot of millet with a rim of wind break trees with tumbleweeds all piled up against it? Dogs with half an acorn of a brain figure that out.
Post by: addicted2hunting on September 15, 2017, 01:09:33 PM
Post by: AspenBud on September 21, 2017, 01:11:38 PM
Labs are a different but similar story. There is literally a flavor of lab for everyone and the breed is tried and true.
The lesser known versatiles have smaller genetic pools to pull from and they will almost always be more expensive than a well bred Pointer or shorthair.
Buy what you want (I have looked at pudelpointers as well and have watched them run, I liked what I saw) but go into it with your eyes wide open to the fact that the big names are big for a reason and the lesser known ones are more of a gamble. As their numbers grow that will change.
Post by: ribka on September 25, 2017, 09:04:08 AM
She taught me a lot just watching her
As mentioned the secret is a lot of wild birds when they are young and good breeding and just finish up the dog
Reality of the whole my breed, your breed thing is that a dog is only as good as the exposure and quality of training it has received. And the owners who feel their dog is the best in the world only know what they have seen and had for exposure to trained dogs. Pointer, retriever, pointing retriever, hairy or smooth....they're only as good as their genes and training allow.
And, as I teased Richard before in this thread about trying to get him and other pointer guys at a pointer field trial to battle it out with my old Chesapeake bitch in the pointer bird field, it was my front yard at the time which was also used as the pointer HT and trial bird field. My bitch got to clean up hundreds if not thousands of left over birds after every pointer HT and trial. No way, no how anyone walking on the property with a dog could find more than her. Not a chance in hell. It was her yard and she knew where the birds went. They don't forget.
That brings me to my comment to bring experience into the discussion. My old bitch couldn't be beat in her front yard by any pointer anywhere in the world. It was her front yard, she knew where to find the birds and how to find them fast. This is the same with any dog who is experienced wherever that experience might be. It could be that guide you paid in NoDak with a shorthair on grouse. The dog does it every day in the same places. Birds are found in the same places on the same property no matter if they are wild or pen raised.
The guys who go boasting they train on the same "wild" ground day in day out blah blah blah... when you go hunt in SoDak and Nodak(or the guys that train there) the wild birds get found in the same spots day in day out because like fishing, there are fishy spots, birdy spots ect. Birds have habits, birds are in certain places they like, dogs and humans alike learn to find those spots pretty quick. Dog learns how to work birds fast. That's the easiest part in the entire world of dog training. *censored*, if the dog likes a feather you can teach it to work a bird.
If you're pheasant hunting, do you hunt the disced corn or, hunt the plot of millet with a rim of wind break trees with tumbleweeds all piled up against it? Dogs with half an acorn of a brain figure that out.
Post by: tlbradford on September 25, 2017, 09:27:52 AM
Post by: HaydenHunter on October 24, 2017, 07:22:50 AM
I lost my lab about a year and a half ago and I retired from work a few months ago. I am ready to get another dog and look forward to training it myself, as I will have the time. I have been looking at Pudelpointers and have done a fair amount of research. I began looking at the breed because my wife is begging me to consider a dog that does not shed this time around. I told her I would consider it, although we love the personality of labs. From what I read, Pudelpointers can be just as goofy and lovable as the Labrador Retriever. I live in the Idaho Panhandle. We can experience very cold temperatures in the later part of the waterfowl season. At this time I do not upland hunt, but I have the opportunity to do it and with more post-retirement free time, may do it.
I understand that one of the foremost Pudelpointer breeders is down in the Boise area.
Can you confirm that Pudelpointer is a non-shedding breed or a lighter shedding breed than the lab? Of course my selection of breed on the next dog will be based on much more than this parameter, but this one would make the wife happy, so there's that too.
Thanks in advance for your replies.
Post by: jagermiester on October 24, 2017, 01:40:38 PM
Post by: Tundra on October 24, 2017, 08:46:34 PM
Post by: constructeur on October 24, 2017, 09:20:45 PM
We also need to be more consistent with out training.....
If you were more consistent, that would put you at odds with most Tall Timber PP owners.
Post by: addicted2hunting on October 25, 2017, 06:01:22 PM
PPs will drop hair but not anywhere near what a lab does. The thing with PPs is that they have hair and not fur so they don't produce the allergens that other dogs do.
As for waterfowl hunting, PPs are excellent waterfowl dogs. They are very hearty in the cold weather, I hunt mine when he is breaking ice on retrieves and he sits like a statue watching for birds. Bob farris with Cedarwoods is a top notch breeder. I know Bob well and he knows how to pair the right breeding with the right person.
Post by: HaydenHunter on October 27, 2017, 06:36:18 AM
Hayden:Thank you for your reply and the info about the shedding. I have heard of Bob Farris and would be leaning that way if I went the PP route.
PPs will drop hair but not anywhere near what a lab does. The thing with PPs is that they have hair and not fur so they don't produce the allergens that other dogs do.
As for waterfowl hunting, PPs are excellent waterfowl dogs. They are very hearty in the cold weather, I hunt mine when he is breaking ice on retrieves and he sits like a statue watching for birds. Bob farris with Cedarwoods is a top notch breeder. I know Bob well and he knows how to pair the right breeding with the right person.