Any Pudelpointer owners?

[Happy Gilmore]

Having lived at a kennel for years which focused on pointing dogs and being pretty deep in the retriever world, the majority of problem dogs are variety breeds. It's basic, there are few breeders which gives you few options and even fewer dogs to view from parents as a baseline. I've seen a lot of low desire pp's, spinones and some downright nasty attitude draughts and whp's.

This isn't a my dog can do this better than your dog comment. Just what I've seen over time. Guys like Shannon know what he's doing training. Average new comer, its a bad idea. Labs are the most versatile, easy to get and capable dogs for all conditions. Not to mention, the ability to get a good bill of health is easiest and lowest cost.

Safety in numbers is a reality in breedings.

[addicted2hunting]

Having lived at a kennel for years which focused on pointing dogs and being pretty deep in the retriever world, the majority of problem dogs are variety breeds. It's basic, there are few breeders which gives you few options and even fewer dogs to view from parents as a baseline. I've seen a lot of low desire pp's, spinones and some downright nasty attitude draughts and whp's.

This isn't a my dog can do this better than your dog comment. Just what I've seen over time. Guys like Shannon know what he's doing training. Average new comer, its a bad idea. Labs are the most versatile, easy to get and capable dogs for all conditions. Not to mention, the ability to get a good bill of health is easiest and lowest cost.

Safety in numbers is a reality in breedings.

A lot of low desire PP? I have seen a bunch of PPs in the NAVHDA program and id say 20% of them were slugs but the others by far have more desire than any lab I have seen in hunting and in the HRC arena. Versatility means it can do everything. the amount of labs that would duck hunt the AM in freezing temps then hunt the snake river breaks in the afternoon for chukar are very rare. Just in this state I could show you atleast 10 PPS that could do that. Labs are a specialist not a versatile dog. DDs and WPGs will be much more of a serious demeanor dog especially a german bred DD. They will also generally be a very fur sharp dog as well. Thats what they breed for in germany. Spinones I can say that yes they wont be even close to those standards for desire. PPs are by far the most intelligent sporting breed I have come across.

[rasbo]

I would love to own one,but my are they pricey..I think they are awesome dogs for a guy that likes to do upland and waterfowl..

[addicted2hunting]

I would love to own one,but my are they pricey..I think they are awesome dogs for a guy that likes to do upland and waterfowl..

ya without a doubt they are spendy. The specialist breeds of course will shine more in their element but for a guy that wants to do all with the same dog, it is hard to beat.

[Shannon]

I don't think $1200-$1400 for a well bred dog of any kind is expensive. I have a buddy that just spent $2,000 on a lab out of good blood lines and he said that was the going rate. I haven't bought a lab for 15+ years but aren't they in that 2K+ range for a dog out of a proven kennel with some titles in the pedigree and clear health? I'm not talking about back yard breeders.
Happy-I'm not going to get with the my dog breed is better than yours debate. I'm glad when people are passionate about what they have but to say you have seen lots of low desire pudelpointers I'll have to call BS. Unless you lived in or around Boise you aren't going to find lots of PP's anywhere especially at the kennel you worked at. I only know of less than 20 PP's in this state and I own three of them. Not saying I know them all but there are very few. I seek out PP's to watch run and I haven't seen lots of them anywhere. My dogs desire is high enough that I have to watch out for them that they don't kill themselves. Fanatical desire to retrieve especially if what they are after has fur or feathers. You stick with your labs and I'll stick with my Pudelpointers and we will both be happy. I just really enjoy watching pointing dogs lock up on point like statues with style until I go in for the flush. The only thing that tops the enjoyment I get out of that is watching my kids play sports. Labs never gave me that and never will. When I use them in the duck blind I don't have any drop off with the retrieves compared to any other breed I've ever owned. The  dash and happiness they get from the retrieve rivals or beats most labs I've been around. The pointing dog games I've done I get more enjoyment from than wearing white coats and throwing bumpers and ducks all day doing multiples and blinds at retriever games. To each there own but this former lab guy will not be getting another sporting breed other than a Pudelpointer any time soon. I do get enjoyment out of watching a retriever that is well trained do his business but that doesn't compare to me when I watch pointers at work. I just like watching well trained dogs period though. I get a kick out of watching sheep dogs do there thing in Sylvana when they have there test or trials or whatever they call them. Just stick with what you like but don't bash another breed especially when you have seen very few of them.

[Colin]

Isn't the difference between the two types or dogs, Upland and waterfowl based on the training? Imagine a well trained lab on a navda duck hunt. The lab would take a line from the handler, run through old falls, hit every piece of water on the line, blow through every piece of cover and maintain its line without hunting until it runs out the back of the field.

Idk seems like a lab trained for strictly Upland is at a huge disadvantage in the retriever games and a PP strictly trained for waterfowl will be at that same disadvantage in the Upland games. We train for different things regardless of the dog. Lab people want control and drive while PP people want independence and drive.

On dog prices I've been watching for lab pups a lot lately and there are lots of health clearance and MH/HRCH pups available for 1000 to 1200. Only time I've seen dogs listed at 2000 or more it was FC to an FC or NFC to MH/QAA. Think there was a recent NFC bred to a MH? As a repeat litter for 2500. I have no idea what the prices for PP'S with health clearances and national titles?

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[addicted2hunting]

Isn't the difference between the two types or dogs, Upland and waterfowl based on the training? Imagine a well trained lab on a navda duck hunt. The lab would take a line from the handler, run through old falls, hit every piece of water on the line, blow through every piece of cover and maintain its line without hunting until it runs out the back of the field.

Idk seems like a lab trained for strictly Upland is at a huge disadvantage in the retriever games and a PP strictly trained for waterfowl will be at that same disadvantage in the Upland games. We train for different things regardless of the dog. Lab people want control and drive while PP people want independence and drive.

On dog prices I've been watching for lab pups a lot lately and there are lots of health clearance and MH/HRCH pups available for 1000 to 1200. Only time I've seen dogs listed at 2000 or more it was FC to an FC or NFC to MH/QAA. Think there was a recent NFC bred to a MH? As a repeat litter for 2500. I have no idea what the prices for PP'S with health clearances and national titles?

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Training is a part of the versatility but PPs having English pointer in them will cover ground and hunt in a similar fashion in the upland and pointing with more style than a pointing lab would. And to add to that they have the water and retrieving drive that a waterfowler desires. They get that from the german hunting pudel. Where the lab lacks in the versatility realm is the inherent instinct to point birds and have the athletic endurance to handle long periods of covering ground in an extreme upland environment. But yes me training for retriever tests is counter productive to the versatile dog tests. That's why guys like me don't get heavy into the retriever tests until our navhda UT is done because you don't want to put too much control on a navhda dogs blind retrieve area because it'll hurt that score. But the navhda invitational is like the same stuff in a retriever test and a AKC upland test all in one without a independent duck search like in the utility. Instead the have a 100 yd blind across water to a duck drag that they have to track 30yds to find the bird. Doing this you want the dog to be able to handle like a retriever if they get off course.

[constructeur]

Alright Mr. Axe to grind, time for a history lesson.

I've seen a lot of low desire pp's,

No you haven't. If so name the kennels and dogs.

spinones and

D U D E. Really? You want to name an esoteric breed that was developed to work for small game birds on a seriously tiny parcel of land at a very very very slow pace (the developed areas of Italy!) and say that they are low desire? That's how they are supposed to be! When in Rome guy!

some downright nasty attitude draughts and whp's.

Yeah, well we've all seen those, and Teufel hunden are like that. That's what the Germans want and need and people buy them thinking they are getting the uber alles gun dog, and often they are buying way more dog than they will need or handle. But we aren't talking DD's and DK's right now are we?

There are lots of great labs out there and lots of good dogs and great folks running HRC, but the harsh truth is that none of the large sanctions recognize the lab as a versatile breed, and the foundation breeds of the Pudelpointer lend itself to a dog that is both faster afoot, and will have a longer time durability in a true upland hunt (not that planted bird flat ground stuff) We have a much milder climate than the midwest, so the coat thickness when waterfowling is really a non issue as well. I've seen so many versatiles that will flat out blow the doors off labs in the water it's not even a real talking point any longer.

Like it or not, with information being available to more folks today, the sun has set on the Labrador Retriever being the zenith of gun dogs. They're still a great dog and option, but they are no longer the top.

[Colin]

We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think a top level PP is gonna out retrieve a top level lab. The blind work you are comparing is apples and oranges and is very different than how a lab is trained to handle on a blind. Who knows maybe I'm wrong as i have only seen 2 PP's run marks.


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[Colin]

I don't think a lab will ever beat a veritable breed in upland hunting. There may be great upland labs but the best veristiles are gonna beat a the best lab.
Strictly talking waterfowling I don't think a veristile is going to beat a lab, if only because they are trained so differently. In a straight marking scenario a solid veristile can match a solid lab at hunt test distances but running blinds a trained lab is going to have a significant advantage due to its training if we are judging to test/trial standards. If I hunted upland I'd have a pointer. I only hunt waterfowl so I have a lab... just my thoughts as we are all probably missing hunting season right now and getting all ramped up for our respective training seasons.

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[Colin]

I'm gonna have to come train with you guys as I don't know much about upland training and don't get to see those kinds of dogs work. Lemme know when you guys have a test. I'd be interested in watching!

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[addicted2hunting]

I'm gonna have to come train with you guys as I don't know much about upland training and don't get to see those kinds of dogs work. Lemme know when you guys have a test. I'd be interested in watching!

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Absolutely colin. Our first test is may 19th to 21st. We will train a bunch this year and you can come out anytime.

[Happy Gilmore]

Exposure, desire and experience. Without the trio you ain't got anything.

[Happy Gilmore]

All Pp's are high drive and amazing just like all labs including show dogs are high drive... You're right. Lol.

[addicted2hunting]

We will have to agree to disagree as I don't think a top level PP is gonna out retrieve a top level lab. The blind work you are comparing is apples and oranges and is very different than how a lab is trained to handle on a blind. Who knows maybe I'm wrong as i have only seen 2 PP's run marks.


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Yes that's where the training differences come in not the breed itself. Could I train my PP to handle 300yd blinds under complete control like a lab? Yes he is totally capable but once you go that way you can't go back. After I'm done testing Navhda Iwith cedar he will be trained like a lab to handle long blinds thus making him equal to a lab waterfowl hunting. My dog will do a 300 yd blind now but it won't be to test standards but if you shoot a winged cripple out at skagit headquarters and it goes 300yds into the cattail tidal marsh my dog I say back and he wil search an entire 300yd radius until he finds that duck and I can sit and drink coffee until he comes back and delivers to hand. That whole time I have no sight of him. Most labs guys would leave that bird.