Post by: DoubleJ on June 03, 2017, 07:06:16 PM
Fast forward to today, we made an appointment with the dealership to resolve this issue. We informed them of the symptoms and told them the TSB number and that the software update would fix it. They didn't care. They didn't want to know about the TSB, the fact that it was the latest software issued in MARCH 2017. They told us the RPM fluttering is because it's a "learning transmission" and it's adjusting to our driving habits, and that we have the latest software update available, OCTOBER 2016 according to them. They wouldn't even entertain looking up the TSB, let alone installing the new software.
I'm frustrated but unsure what to do next. I have no problem going to a different dealership if that would get this done. I was too tired today, after having the truck at the dealership 4 hours already to make a scene.
Anyone, preferably someone associated with Toyota have any ideas? Thanks
Post by: coachcw on June 03, 2017, 07:50:57 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on June 03, 2017, 09:14:08 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on June 03, 2017, 09:58:24 PM
Hhhhhmmm I think we all need to know where not to go. ;)
Meh, not just yet. I'd like more input and further ideas before I sell out a dealership that has, until this, treated me like royalty. ;)
Post by: shadowless_nite on June 05, 2017, 03:57:39 PM
The service writer doesn't know every single tsb or latest updates. It's usually up to the service technician to diagnose the issue and check for applicable tsb. While the service writer does have access TIS and can see any and all applicable tsb's it doesn't mean they will, like in your case (poor service)
I will also tell you that from a industry stand point coming in saying you diagnosed your problem yourself and its this or that is very frowned upon by both the service writer and technician. Often times we get customers that say it's this or that and they want a specific thing done to fix said "self diagnosed " issue. Then when you repair/replace the customer specified item and it doesn't fix the problem they blame falls back on the dealer. And the customers get even more upset and frustrated to hear it needs to be actually diagnosed and its not what they read on Google or on some forum. Now this may not always be the case in your situation or in other situations but it's very frequent problem that comes up.
My advice would be to first contact the service manager. Let them look into it and work with a different service writer that's actually willing to do something for the customer. Even just logging in and looking up open applicable recalls and service bulletins. Sorry this is the service you got. If I still had access to TIS I'd be able to help you out more.
Post by: DoubleJ on June 05, 2017, 04:03:38 PM
I will tell you from a Toyota dealer stand point as I have worked there and dealt with this.
The service writer doesn't know every single tsb or latest updates. It's usually up to the service technician to diagnose the issue and check for applicable tsb. While the service writer does have access TIS and can see any and all applicable tsb's it doesn't mean they will, like in your case (poor service)
I will also tell you that from a industry stand point coming in saying you diagnosed your problem yourself and its this or that is very frowned upon by both the service writer and technician. Often times we get customers that say it's this or that and they want a specific thing done to fix said "self diagnosed " issue. Then when you repair/replace the customer specified item and it doesn't fix the problem they blame falls back on the dealer. And the customers get even more upset and frustrated to hear it needs to be actually diagnosed and its not what they read on Google or on some forum. Now this may not always be the case in your situation or in other situations but it's very frequent problem that comes up.
My advice would be to first contact the service manager. Let them look into it and work with a different service writer that's actually willing to do something for the customer. Even just logging in and looking up open applicable recalls and service bulletins. Sorry this is the service you got. If I still had access to TIS I'd be able to help you out more.
Service manager emailed today. Waiting to hear
I have TIS here at home. Can I upload the TSB software update myself?
I'm not frustrated because I self diagnosed the problem and I'm just fine with them diagnosing it themselves but, when they are told I have a TSB that they can look at that might fix the problem because exactly what we're describing is fixed by the TSB, and it's blown off and we're told that we have the latest software (Clearly not true) and that it's part of a "learning transmission" and to just ignore it, I'm kinda upset about that. They never even entertained the idea
Post by: Buckmark on June 05, 2017, 04:29:07 PM
Post by: Buckmark on June 05, 2017, 04:31:00 PM
Post by: shadowless_nite on June 05, 2017, 05:42:23 PM
Post by: h20hunter on June 05, 2017, 06:40:22 PM
Post by: DoubleJ on June 05, 2017, 09:59:38 PM
So even with that tsb in hand printed out and taken to them. The correct procedures would need to be taken. Service writer would have to write it up, technician would have to verify that it is covered by the tsb according to vin range AND if it does, then he would have to verify the complaint. Rememer this is a tsb and not a recall so there is not necessarily just a replace parts and go. Complaint must be in accordance with the technicians diagnosis and tsb qualification guide lines. There is not a mandatory need to replace things without proper diagnosis. This covers both the customers ass and the dealership. Otherwise their would be a huge amount of warranty audits for claims on every little thing. And following the correct tsb service actions helps a customer in the event that this turns into a lemon or something of that scenario
So what is my next course of action?
BTW, Thanks Buckmark :tup:
Post by: jackelope on June 06, 2017, 07:26:39 AM
So even with that tsb in hand printed out and taken to them. The correct procedures would need to be taken. Service writer would have to write it up, technician would have to verify that it is covered by the tsb according to vin range AND if it does, then he would have to verify the complaint. Rememer this is a tsb and not a recall so there is not necessarily just a replace parts and go. Complaint must be in accordance with the technicians diagnosis and tsb qualification guide lines. There is not a mandatory need to replace things without proper diagnosis. This covers both the customers ass and the dealership. Otherwise their would be a huge amount of warranty audits for claims on every little thing. And following the correct tsb service actions helps a customer in the event that this turns into a lemon or something of that scenario
So what is my next course of action?
BTW, Thanks Buckmark :tup:
Don't make a scene first of all.
Did your car go into the shop at all?
Ask to road test with the technician so you can display your concern. If you have a problem and the technician can verify it, they'll attempt a repair. If you road test it, display your concern and they tell you it's normal, ask them to drive you in another like vehicle. If it does the same thing as yours, take your car and go home. If it's a normal characteristic of the vehicle, you own it. Adaptive "learning" transmissions are a thing.
Unless you know for sure your vehicle doesn't have the latest software, why would you want them to update software to the same software that's already in it?
I will say from a service advisor/service manager/technician/service department point of view...if a problem cannot be verified, a repair should not be attempted. All those repair attempts end up adding to the attempted repairs when it comes to lemon law. The other thing to keep in mind is that dealers get paid by the manufacturer to do warranty work. They make a significant amount of money fixing stuff. Doesn't matter if the customer is paying or the manufacturer is paying. It's a lot of money. There would be absolutely no reason for them to not fix your car unless of course there was nothing wrong with it.
Lastly, and don't take this the wrong way, but the last kind of customer I want standing in front of me is the guy who prints out all the TSB's, thinks he knows everything and shows up demanding we do them all. If there's a concern with your car, show them. Display it to them and let them fix it. They're professionals. Let them do their jobs. Don't try cramming TSB's down their throat then get pissed off when they tell you they won't do them. I'd do the same thing if I couldn't reproduce a concern with your vehicle.
Post by: Miles on June 06, 2017, 08:16:36 AM
It was a pretty straight forward item... I ended up just buying the $100 module and fixing it myself rather then taking it up the A from a dealer.
Post by: jackelope on June 06, 2017, 08:21:40 AM
I've had a dealership flat out refuse to look at an item which had a TSB out on it. They refused to even look/listen to it in the parking lot. They said unless I was willing to pay upfront for the troubleshooting and leave the truck with them, they couldn't help me. This was on a Chevrolet Silverado and the fan had stuck on (running on high speed even when the ignition was off). I had to pull the fuse so the battery wouldn't die.
It was a pretty straight forward item... I ended up just buying the $100 module and fixing it myself rather then taking it up the A from a dealer.
Would you have been ok paying for that repair had it not fixed the problem? I'm assuming we all know TSB's don't mean the repairs are covered by some sort of warranty.
(Side note...your answer may not typify the mentality of lots of vehicle owners....so take that question for what it's worth.)
In this situation, I'm more than happy to make those repairs on your dime, but it will be made extremely clear up front that you own the repair whether it fixes the problem or not. If we diagnose the problem, we guarantee the repair.
Post by: Woodchuck on June 06, 2017, 08:24:09 AM
:yeah:I've had a dealership flat out refuse to look at an item which had a TSB out on it. They refused to even look/listen to it in the parking lot. They said unless I was willing to pay upfront for the troubleshooting and leave the truck with them, they couldn't help me. This was on a Chevrolet Silverado and the fan had stuck on (running on high speed even when the ignition was off). I had to pull the fuse so the battery wouldn't die.
It was a pretty straight forward item... I ended up just buying the $100 module and fixing it myself rather then taking it up the A from a dealer.
Would you have been ok paying for that repair had it not fixed the problem? I'm assuming we all know TSB's don't mean the repairs are covered by some sort of warranty.
(Side note...your answer may not typify the mentality of lots of vehicle owners....so take that question for what it's worth.)
In this situation, I'm more than happy to make those repairs on your dime, but it will be made extremely clear up front that you own the repair whether it fixes the problem or not. If we diagnose the problem, we guarantee the repair.
Post by: Miles on June 06, 2017, 08:35:50 AM
I've had a dealership flat out refuse to look at an item which had a TSB out on it. They refused to even look/listen to it in the parking lot. They said unless I was willing to pay upfront for the troubleshooting and leave the truck with them, they couldn't help me. This was on a Chevrolet Silverado and the fan had stuck on (running on high speed even when the ignition was off). I had to pull the fuse so the battery wouldn't die.
It was a pretty straight forward item... I ended up just buying the $100 module and fixing it myself rather then taking it up the A from a dealer.
Would you have been ok paying for that repair had it not fixed the problem?
If they had given me that option I would have said go right ahead. I just had a feeling I was about to get the shaft with the "pay now for troubleshooting" request. After that I didn't really even want them touching the truck. No offense Jackelope, but I'm in the maintenance field and I've encountered a lot of shady things/people as I'm sure you have. There's always a little hesitation when it comes to trusting dealerships and maintenance shops.
I checked the module signal with my meter prior to driving to the dealer. I did buy the $100 part without hesitation. ;)
Post by: jackelope on June 06, 2017, 08:47:58 AM
I've had a dealership flat out refuse to look at an item which had a TSB out on it. They refused to even look/listen to it in the parking lot. They said unless I was willing to pay upfront for the troubleshooting and leave the truck with them, they couldn't help me. This was on a Chevrolet Silverado and the fan had stuck on (running on high speed even when the ignition was off). I had to pull the fuse so the battery wouldn't die.
It was a pretty straight forward item... I ended up just buying the $100 module and fixing it myself rather then taking it up the A from a dealer.
Would you have been ok paying for that repair had it not fixed the problem?
If they had given me that option I would have said go right ahead. I just had a feeling I was about to get the shaft with the "pay now for troubleshooting" request. After that I didn't really even want them touching the truck. No offense Jackelope, but I'm in the maintenance field and I've encountered a lot of shady things/people as I'm sure you have. There's always a little hesitation when it comes to trusting dealerships and maintenance shops.
I checked the module signal with my meter prior to driving to the dealer. I did buy the $100 part without hesitation. ;)
That's why I said your answer may not be typical. What happens a lot is we'll have a customer come in, get all pissy wanting us to replace a part, not cover our time to diagnose the problem and verify the faulty part and then refuse to pay for our time and the parts when the part they wanted replaced doesn't fix the issue.
I don't have any issue at all replacing parts for folks if that's what they want done. Obviously we wouldn't guarantee a repair unless we diagnosed the problem, and we, like the consumer, don't work for free.
Side note to this is we will never perform a warranty repair without diagnosis. Regardless of what TSB or whatever the customer comes in with.
Post by: Miles on June 06, 2017, 08:51:45 AM
Post by: DoubleJ on June 06, 2017, 11:26:36 AM
So even with that tsb in hand printed out and taken to them. The correct procedures would need to be taken. Service writer would have to write it up, technician would have to verify that it is covered by the tsb according to vin range AND if it does, then he would have to verify the complaint. Rememer this is a tsb and not a recall so there is not necessarily just a replace parts and go. Complaint must be in accordance with the technicians diagnosis and tsb qualification guide lines. There is not a mandatory need to replace things without proper diagnosis. This covers both the customers ass and the dealership. Otherwise their would be a huge amount of warranty audits for claims on every little thing. And following the correct tsb service actions helps a customer in the event that this turns into a lemon or something of that scenario
So what is my next course of action?
BTW, Thanks Buckmark :tup:
Don't make a scene first of all. No scene was made and none will be. I'm not that type of person
Did your car go into the shop at all? Yes it did, on an appointment made to address this issue
Ask to road test with the technician so you can display your concern. If you have a problem and the technician can verify it, they'll attempt a repair. If you road test it, display your concern and they tell you it's normal, ask them to drive you in another like vehicle. If it does the same thing as yours, take your car and go home. If it's a normal characteristic of the vehicle, you own it. Adaptive "learning" transmissions are a thing. I asked for a road test. "We don't do that sort of thing. We have the ability to reproduce road conditions here"
Unless you know for sure your vehicle doesn't have the latest software, why would you want them to update software to the same software that's already in it? They told us our software was from October 2016. The TSB is from March 2017. Unless I'm missing something, the software from October currently on the truck isn't the most current. Only thing I can think of is that the software from October is the most current and the TSB from March is just a patch of sorts? I don't know
I will say from a service advisor/service manager/technician/service department point of view...if a problem cannot be verified, a repair should not be attempted. I completely understandAll those repair attempts end up adding to the attempted repairs when it comes to lemon law. The other thing to keep in mind is that dealers get paid by the manufacturer to do warranty work. They make a significant amount of money fixing stuff. Doesn't matter if the customer is paying or the manufacturer is paying. It's a lot of money. There would be absolutely no reason for them to not fix your car unless of course there was nothing wrong with it.
Lastly, and don't take this the wrong way, but the last kind of customer I want standing in front of me is the guy who prints out all the TSB's, thinks he knows everything and shows up demanding we do them all. If there's a concern with your car, show them. Display it to them and let them fix it. They're professionals. Let them do their jobs. Don't try cramming TSB's down their throat then get pissed off when they tell you they won't do them. I'd do the same thing if I couldn't reproduce a concern with your vehicle. Again, I completely understand. I wasn't trying to wave the TSB in front of them and demand that they do it regardless of what they saw. My only issue, and again I may not understand how it works, is that we described an issue, the issue should be recreatable save for the fact that, like any other vehicle issue, it isn't an every time thing so, making it do it for the mechanic is gonna be hit or miss, and there is a known TSB for that issue. What I'm saying I guess is, how do I go about proving to the mechanic that it's doing it if it won't do it for him, and the fact that they told us our software was up to date when it clearly isn't, unless I got that part wrong. Thank you for your time helping with this. I'll take any other advice you can give
Post by: jackelope on June 06, 2017, 11:47:05 AM
So even with that tsb in hand printed out and taken to them. The correct procedures would need to be taken. Service writer would have to write it up, technician would have to verify that it is covered by the tsb according to vin range AND if it does, then he would have to verify the complaint. Rememer this is a tsb and not a recall so there is not necessarily just a replace parts and go. Complaint must be in accordance with the technicians diagnosis and tsb qualification guide lines. There is not a mandatory need to replace things without proper diagnosis. This covers both the customers ass and the dealership. Otherwise their would be a huge amount of warranty audits for claims on every little thing. And following the correct tsb service actions helps a customer in the event that this turns into a lemon or something of that scenario
So what is my next course of action?
BTW, Thanks Buckmark :tup:
Don't make a scene first of all. No scene was made and none will be. I'm not that type of person
Did your car go into the shop at all? Yes it did, on an appointment made to address this issue
Ask to road test with the technician so you can display your concern. If you have a problem and the technician can verify it, they'll attempt a repair. If you road test it, display your concern and they tell you it's normal, ask them to drive you in another like vehicle. If it does the same thing as yours, take your car and go home. If it's a normal characteristic of the vehicle, you own it. Adaptive "learning" transmissions are a thing. I asked for a road test. "We don't do that sort of thing. We have the ability to reproduce road conditions here"
Unless you know for sure your vehicle doesn't have the latest software, why would you want them to update software to the same software that's already in it? They told us our software was from October 2016. The TSB is from March 2017. Unless I'm missing something, the software from October currently on the truck isn't the most current. Only thing I can think of is that the software from October is the most current and the TSB from March is just a patch of sorts? I don't know
I will say from a service advisor/service manager/technician/service department point of view...if a problem cannot be verified, a repair should not be attempted. I completely understandAll those repair attempts end up adding to the attempted repairs when it comes to lemon law. The other thing to keep in mind is that dealers get paid by the manufacturer to do warranty work. They make a significant amount of money fixing stuff. Doesn't matter if the customer is paying or the manufacturer is paying. It's a lot of money. There would be absolutely no reason for them to not fix your car unless of course there was nothing wrong with it.
Lastly, and don't take this the wrong way, but the last kind of customer I want standing in front of me is the guy who prints out all the TSB's, thinks he knows everything and shows up demanding we do them all. If there's a concern with your car, show them. Display it to them and let them fix it. They're professionals. Let them do their jobs. Don't try cramming TSB's down their throat then get pissed off when they tell you they won't do them. I'd do the same thing if I couldn't reproduce a concern with your vehicle. Again, I completely understand. I wasn't trying to wave the TSB in front of them and demand that they do it regardless of what they saw. My only issue, and again I may not understand how it works, is that we described an issue, the issue should be recreatable save for the fact that, like any other vehicle issue, it isn't an every time thing so, making it do it for the mechanic is gonna be hit or miss, and there is a known TSB for that issue. What I'm saying I guess is, how do I go about proving to the mechanic that it's doing it if it won't do it for him, and the fact that they told us our software was up to date when it clearly isn't, unless I got that part wrong. Thank you for your time helping with this. I'll take any other advice you can give
It doesn't really come down to having to prove to anyone that anything is happening. Really it's about recreating the issue so that we can see what's causing it. It's not that we don't believe things are happening. If we see the concern happen, we can determine what's causing it and/or if it's a normal characteristic of the vehicle.
I would ask the service manager directly to take a technician for a road test so you can show him your concern. Point it out. He will tell you if it's an issue, if it's normal, he'll know how to reproduce the concern for himself for sure, etc. If they don't employ this tactic once in a while, they're missing the boat. I use it all the time and solve a lot of potentially difficult to find problems. We don't always drive the same way as you or lines get crossed between you and the tech because of the middle man service advisor, etc. Worst case scenario, take the service manager for a ride. He can then take the car to the tech and show the tech what you're doing to make the concern happen or what your exact concern is.
I'm trying to figure out how they're calling the RPM flutter a function of the transmission learning, when it's an RPM flutter at restart per the TSB. Is your RPM flutter happening at restart?
Post by: jackelope on June 06, 2017, 11:47:51 AM
Is your vehicle exhibiting these concerns?
Post by: Woodchuck on June 06, 2017, 11:54:09 AM
Post by: DoubleJ on June 06, 2017, 01:49:13 PM
So even with that tsb in hand printed out and taken to them. The correct procedures would need to be taken. Service writer would have to write it up, technician would have to verify that it is covered by the tsb according to vin range AND if it does, then he would have to verify the complaint. Rememer this is a tsb and not a recall so there is not necessarily just a replace parts and go. Complaint must be in accordance with the technicians diagnosis and tsb qualification guide lines. There is not a mandatory need to replace things without proper diagnosis. This covers both the customers ass and the dealership. Otherwise their would be a huge amount of warranty audits for claims on every little thing. And following the correct tsb service actions helps a customer in the event that this turns into a lemon or something of that scenario
So what is my next course of action?
BTW, Thanks Buckmark :tup:
Don't make a scene first of all. No scene was made and none will be. I'm not that type of person
Did your car go into the shop at all? Yes it did, on an appointment made to address this issue
Ask to road test with the technician so you can display your concern. If you have a problem and the technician can verify it, they'll attempt a repair. If you road test it, display your concern and they tell you it's normal, ask them to drive you in another like vehicle. If it does the same thing as yours, take your car and go home. If it's a normal characteristic of the vehicle, you own it. Adaptive "learning" transmissions are a thing. I asked for a road test. "We don't do that sort of thing. We have the ability to reproduce road conditions here"
Unless you know for sure your vehicle doesn't have the latest software, why would you want them to update software to the same software that's already in it? They told us our software was from October 2016. The TSB is from March 2017. Unless I'm missing something, the software from October currently on the truck isn't the most current. Only thing I can think of is that the software from October is the most current and the TSB from March is just a patch of sorts? I don't know
I will say from a service advisor/service manager/technician/service department point of view...if a problem cannot be verified, a repair should not be attempted. I completely understandAll those repair attempts end up adding to the attempted repairs when it comes to lemon law. The other thing to keep in mind is that dealers get paid by the manufacturer to do warranty work. They make a significant amount of money fixing stuff. Doesn't matter if the customer is paying or the manufacturer is paying. It's a lot of money. There would be absolutely no reason for them to not fix your car unless of course there was nothing wrong with it.
Lastly, and don't take this the wrong way, but the last kind of customer I want standing in front of me is the guy who prints out all the TSB's, thinks he knows everything and shows up demanding we do them all. If there's a concern with your car, show them. Display it to them and let them fix it. They're professionals. Let them do their jobs. Don't try cramming TSB's down their throat then get pissed off when they tell you they won't do them. I'd do the same thing if I couldn't reproduce a concern with your vehicle. Again, I completely understand. I wasn't trying to wave the TSB in front of them and demand that they do it regardless of what they saw. My only issue, and again I may not understand how it works, is that we described an issue, the issue should be recreatable save for the fact that, like any other vehicle issue, it isn't an every time thing so, making it do it for the mechanic is gonna be hit or miss, and there is a known TSB for that issue. What I'm saying I guess is, how do I go about proving to the mechanic that it's doing it if it won't do it for him, and the fact that they told us our software was up to date when it clearly isn't, unless I got that part wrong. Thank you for your time helping with this. I'll take any other advice you can give
It doesn't really come down to having to prove to anyone that anything is happening. Really it's about recreating the issue so that we can see what's causing it. It's not that we don't believe things are happening. If we see the concern happen, we can determine what's causing it and/or if it's a normal characteristic of the vehicle.
I would ask the service manager directly to take a technician for a road test so you can show him your concern. Point it out. He will tell you if it's an issue, if it's normal, he'll know how to reproduce the concern for himself for sure, etc. If they don't employ this tactic once in a while, they're missing the boat. I use it all the time and solve a lot of potentially difficult to find problems. We don't always drive the same way as you or lines get crossed between you and the tech because of the middle man service advisor, etc. Worst case scenario, take the service manager for a ride. He can then take the car to the tech and show the tech what you're doing to make the concern happen or what your exact concern is.
I'm trying to figure out how they're calling the RPM flutter a function of the transmission learning, when it's an RPM flutter at restart per the TSB. Is your RPM flutter happening at restart?
No flutter at restart. The flutter happens when holding speed steady between 40-50mph. Without depressing the gas pedal, the tach will jump from about 2500 to 3500, float back down to 3000, back to 3500 and back to 2500 where it will settle down again. Service department said it was looking for the proper gear to be in as it learned how we drive. Just doesn't seem normal, especially since we're on a flat road with no fluctuations of the gas pedal. I would say possibly a lack of power when it's doing it. When the tach flutters, we can't speed up or take our foot off the pedal and coast slower. It's like it's locked in right there until it decides to stop doing it
If I managed to take a video of the tach when it happens, would that help the service department?
Post by: DoubleJ on June 06, 2017, 01:51:11 PM
PM me the vin of the vehicle, I will do some checking.
Have to wait until I get home.
Thanks
Post by: Rainier10 on June 06, 2017, 02:02:09 PM
Post by: Woodchuck on June 06, 2017, 02:04:15 PM
:tup:PM me the vin of the vehicle, I will do some checking.
Have to wait until I get home.
Thanks
Post by: jackelope on June 06, 2017, 02:53:03 PM
So even with that tsb in hand printed out and taken to them. The correct procedures would need to be taken. Service writer would have to write it up, technician would have to verify that it is covered by the tsb according to vin range AND if it does, then he would have to verify the complaint. Rememer this is a tsb and not a recall so there is not necessarily just a replace parts and go. Complaint must be in accordance with the technicians diagnosis and tsb qualification guide lines. There is not a mandatory need to replace things without proper diagnosis. This covers both the customers ass and the dealership. Otherwise their would be a huge amount of warranty audits for claims on every little thing. And following the correct tsb service actions helps a customer in the event that this turns into a lemon or something of that scenario
So what is my next course of action?
BTW, Thanks Buckmark :tup:
Don't make a scene first of all. No scene was made and none will be. I'm not that type of person
Did your car go into the shop at all? Yes it did, on an appointment made to address this issue
Ask to road test with the technician so you can display your concern. If you have a problem and the technician can verify it, they'll attempt a repair. If you road test it, display your concern and they tell you it's normal, ask them to drive you in another like vehicle. If it does the same thing as yours, take your car and go home. If it's a normal characteristic of the vehicle, you own it. Adaptive "learning" transmissions are a thing. I asked for a road test. "We don't do that sort of thing. We have the ability to reproduce road conditions here"
Unless you know for sure your vehicle doesn't have the latest software, why would you want them to update software to the same software that's already in it? They told us our software was from October 2016. The TSB is from March 2017. Unless I'm missing something, the software from October currently on the truck isn't the most current. Only thing I can think of is that the software from October is the most current and the TSB from March is just a patch of sorts? I don't know
I will say from a service advisor/service manager/technician/service department point of view...if a problem cannot be verified, a repair should not be attempted. I completely understandAll those repair attempts end up adding to the attempted repairs when it comes to lemon law. The other thing to keep in mind is that dealers get paid by the manufacturer to do warranty work. They make a significant amount of money fixing stuff. Doesn't matter if the customer is paying or the manufacturer is paying. It's a lot of money. There would be absolutely no reason for them to not fix your car unless of course there was nothing wrong with it.
Lastly, and don't take this the wrong way, but the last kind of customer I want standing in front of me is the guy who prints out all the TSB's, thinks he knows everything and shows up demanding we do them all. If there's a concern with your car, show them. Display it to them and let them fix it. They're professionals. Let them do their jobs. Don't try cramming TSB's down their throat then get pissed off when they tell you they won't do them. I'd do the same thing if I couldn't reproduce a concern with your vehicle. Again, I completely understand. I wasn't trying to wave the TSB in front of them and demand that they do it regardless of what they saw. My only issue, and again I may not understand how it works, is that we described an issue, the issue should be recreatable save for the fact that, like any other vehicle issue, it isn't an every time thing so, making it do it for the mechanic is gonna be hit or miss, and there is a known TSB for that issue. What I'm saying I guess is, how do I go about proving to the mechanic that it's doing it if it won't do it for him, and the fact that they told us our software was up to date when it clearly isn't, unless I got that part wrong. Thank you for your time helping with this. I'll take any other advice you can give
It doesn't really come down to having to prove to anyone that anything is happening. Really it's about recreating the issue so that we can see what's causing it. It's not that we don't believe things are happening. If we see the concern happen, we can determine what's causing it and/or if it's a normal characteristic of the vehicle.
I would ask the service manager directly to take a technician for a road test so you can show him your concern. Point it out. He will tell you if it's an issue, if it's normal, he'll know how to reproduce the concern for himself for sure, etc. If they don't employ this tactic once in a while, they're missing the boat. I use it all the time and solve a lot of potentially difficult to find problems. We don't always drive the same way as you or lines get crossed between you and the tech because of the middle man service advisor, etc. Worst case scenario, take the service manager for a ride. He can then take the car to the tech and show the tech what you're doing to make the concern happen or what your exact concern is.
I'm trying to figure out how they're calling the RPM flutter a function of the transmission learning, when it's an RPM flutter at restart per the TSB. Is your RPM flutter happening at restart?
No flutter at restart. The flutter happens when holding speed steady between 40-50mph. Without depressing the gas pedal, the tach will jump from about 2500 to 3500, float back down to 3000, back to 3500 and back to 2500 where it will settle down again. Service department said it was looking for the proper gear to be in as it learned how we drive. Just doesn't seem normal, especially since we're on a flat road with no fluctuations of the gas pedal. I would say possibly a lack of power when it's doing it. When the tach flutters, we can't speed up or take our foot off the pedal and coast slower. It's like it's locked in right there until it decides to stop doing it
If I managed to take a video of the tach when it happens, would that help the service department?
Probably not, as they're going to want to be able to see the scan data when it's happening.
Does your car fit the VIN break listed on the first page of the bulletin? I don't want to be "that guy" but the symptoms you're describing don't seem to fit the symptoms listed on the bulletin. Not saying it's a normal or abnormal characteristic, just saying that maybe they're not doing the TSB because it's not going to fix the problem.
Post by: Buckmark on June 06, 2017, 03:10:55 PM
Not unusual as i get vehicles reflashed all the time.
Post by: DoubleJ on June 06, 2017, 03:16:56 PM
Oh wait, I'M that guy.
The VIN doesn't fit.
Well, crap. Is what I described normal then? I own a 2016 Corolla LE Eco with the variable band transmission so it doesn't do anything like this. Last new car I've owned was a 2005 Kia Sedona and I'm sure car computers and transmissions are way different now then they were then. Is this just normal then?
BTW, thank you all for being patient and helping me figure out what a dolt I am :bash:
Thanks
Post by: Woodchuck on June 06, 2017, 03:34:14 PM
The adaptive learning transmission is a thing, It can take some time, even more time if multiple people driving. :twocents:
Post by: DoubleJ on June 06, 2017, 03:44:23 PM
:chuckle:
The adaptive learning transmission is a thing, It can take some time, even more time if multiple people driving. :twocents:
I'm not allowed to drive it. I just pay for it :chuckle:
Post by: Woodchuck on June 06, 2017, 03:59:03 PM
:chuckle: :tup::chuckle:
The adaptive learning transmission is a thing, It can take some time, even more time if multiple people driving. :twocents:
I'm not allowed to drive it. I just pay for it :chuckle:
Post by: jackelope on June 06, 2017, 04:04:57 PM
So even with that tsb in hand printed out and taken to them. The correct procedures would need to be taken. Service writer would have to write it up, technician would have to verify that it is covered by the tsb according to vin range AND if it does, then he would have to verify the complaint. Rememer this is a tsb and not a recall so there is not necessarily just a replace parts and go. Complaint must be in accordance with the technicians diagnosis and tsb qualification guide lines. There is not a mandatory need to replace things without proper diagnosis. This covers both the customers ass and the dealership. Otherwise their would be a huge amount of warranty audits for claims on every little thing. And following the correct tsb service actions helps a customer in the event that this turns into a lemon or something of that scenario
So what is my next course of action?
BTW, Thanks Buckmark :tup:
Don't make a scene first of all. No scene was made and none will be. I'm not that type of person
Did your car go into the shop at all? Yes it did, on an appointment made to address this issue
Ask to road test with the technician so you can display your concern. If you have a problem and the technician can verify it, they'll attempt a repair. If you road test it, display your concern and they tell you it's normal, ask them to drive you in another like vehicle. If it does the same thing as yours, take your car and go home. If it's a normal characteristic of the vehicle, you own it. Adaptive "learning" transmissions are a thing. I asked for a road test. "We don't do that sort of thing. We have the ability to reproduce road conditions here"
Unless you know for sure your vehicle doesn't have the latest software, why would you want them to update software to the same software that's already in it? They told us our software was from October 2016. The TSB is from March 2017. Unless I'm missing something, the software from October currently on the truck isn't the most current. Only thing I can think of is that the software from October is the most current and the TSB from March is just a patch of sorts? I don't know
I will say from a service advisor/service manager/technician/service department point of view...if a problem cannot be verified, a repair should not be attempted. I completely understandAll those repair attempts end up adding to the attempted repairs when it comes to lemon law. The other thing to keep in mind is that dealers get paid by the manufacturer to do warranty work. They make a significant amount of money fixing stuff. Doesn't matter if the customer is paying or the manufacturer is paying. It's a lot of money. There would be absolutely no reason for them to not fix your car unless of course there was nothing wrong with it.
Lastly, and don't take this the wrong way, but the last kind of customer I want standing in front of me is the guy who prints out all the TSB's, thinks he knows everything and shows up demanding we do them all. If there's a concern with your car, show them. Display it to them and let them fix it. They're professionals. Let them do their jobs. Don't try cramming TSB's down their throat then get pissed off when they tell you they won't do them. I'd do the same thing if I couldn't reproduce a concern with your vehicle. Again, I completely understand. I wasn't trying to wave the TSB in front of them and demand that they do it regardless of what they saw. My only issue, and again I may not understand how it works, is that we described an issue, the issue should be recreatable save for the fact that, like any other vehicle issue, it isn't an every time thing so, making it do it for the mechanic is gonna be hit or miss, and there is a known TSB for that issue. What I'm saying I guess is, how do I go about proving to the mechanic that it's doing it if it won't do it for him, and the fact that they told us our software was up to date when it clearly isn't, unless I got that part wrong. Thank you for your time helping with this. I'll take any other advice you can give
It doesn't really come down to having to prove to anyone that anything is happening. Really it's about recreating the issue so that we can see what's causing it. It's not that we don't believe things are happening. If we see the concern happen, we can determine what's causing it and/or if it's a normal characteristic of the vehicle.
I would ask the service manager directly to take a technician for a road test so you can show him your concern. Point it out. He will tell you if it's an issue, if it's normal, he'll know how to reproduce the concern for himself for sure, etc. If they don't employ this tactic once in a while, they're missing the boat. I use it all the time and solve a lot of potentially difficult to find problems. We don't always drive the same way as you or lines get crossed between you and the tech because of the middle man service advisor, etc. Worst case scenario, take the service manager for a ride. He can then take the car to the tech and show the tech what you're doing to make the concern happen or what your exact concern is.
I'm trying to figure out how they're calling the RPM flutter a function of the transmission learning, when it's an RPM flutter at restart per the TSB. Is your RPM flutter happening at restart?
No flutter at restart. The flutter happens when holding speed steady between 40-50mph. Without depressing the gas pedal, the tach will jump from about 2500 to 3500, float back down to 3000, back to 3500 and back to 2500 where it will settle down again. Service department said it was looking for the proper gear to be in as it learned how we drive. Just doesn't seem normal, especially since we're on a flat road with no fluctuations of the gas pedal. I would say possibly a lack of power when it's doing it. When the tach flutters, we can't speed up or take our foot off the pedal and coast slower. It's like it's locked in right there until it decides to stop doing it
If I managed to take a video of the tach when it happens, would that help the service department?
Probably not, as they're going to want to be able to see the scan data when it's happening.
Does your car fit the VIN break listed on the first page of the bulletin? I don't want to be "that guy" but the symptoms you're describing don't seem to fit the symptoms listed on the bulletin. Not saying it's a normal or abnormal characteristic, just saying that maybe they're not doing the TSB because it's not going to fix the problem.
Perfect. So not to be that guy again, but that's why dealership service departments don't just do stuff because someone wants it done and why we want to reproduce concerns before randomly shotgunning repairs at them. They didn't do the flash because the service bulletin doesn't apply to your vehicle.
Post by: DoubleJ on June 06, 2017, 04:24:39 PM
So even with that tsb in hand printed out and taken to them. The correct procedures would need to be taken. Service writer would have to write it up, technician would have to verify that it is covered by the tsb according to vin range AND if it does, then he would have to verify the complaint. Rememer this is a tsb and not a recall so there is not necessarily just a replace parts and go. Complaint must be in accordance with the technicians diagnosis and tsb qualification guide lines. There is not a mandatory need to replace things without proper diagnosis. This covers both the customers ass and the dealership. Otherwise their would be a huge amount of warranty audits for claims on every little thing. And following the correct tsb service actions helps a customer in the event that this turns into a lemon or something of that scenario
So what is my next course of action?
BTW, Thanks Buckmark :tup:
Don't make a scene first of all. No scene was made and none will be. I'm not that type of person
Did your car go into the shop at all? Yes it did, on an appointment made to address this issue
Ask to road test with the technician so you can display your concern. If you have a problem and the technician can verify it, they'll attempt a repair. If you road test it, display your concern and they tell you it's normal, ask them to drive you in another like vehicle. If it does the same thing as yours, take your car and go home. If it's a normal characteristic of the vehicle, you own it. Adaptive "learning" transmissions are a thing. I asked for a road test. "We don't do that sort of thing. We have the ability to reproduce road conditions here"
Unless you know for sure your vehicle doesn't have the latest software, why would you want them to update software to the same software that's already in it? They told us our software was from October 2016. The TSB is from March 2017. Unless I'm missing something, the software from October currently on the truck isn't the most current. Only thing I can think of is that the software from October is the most current and the TSB from March is just a patch of sorts? I don't know
I will say from a service advisor/service manager/technician/service department point of view...if a problem cannot be verified, a repair should not be attempted. I completely understandAll those repair attempts end up adding to the attempted repairs when it comes to lemon law. The other thing to keep in mind is that dealers get paid by the manufacturer to do warranty work. They make a significant amount of money fixing stuff. Doesn't matter if the customer is paying or the manufacturer is paying. It's a lot of money. There would be absolutely no reason for them to not fix your car unless of course there was nothing wrong with it.
Lastly, and don't take this the wrong way, but the last kind of customer I want standing in front of me is the guy who prints out all the TSB's, thinks he knows everything and shows up demanding we do them all. If there's a concern with your car, show them. Display it to them and let them fix it. They're professionals. Let them do their jobs. Don't try cramming TSB's down their throat then get pissed off when they tell you they won't do them. I'd do the same thing if I couldn't reproduce a concern with your vehicle. Again, I completely understand. I wasn't trying to wave the TSB in front of them and demand that they do it regardless of what they saw. My only issue, and again I may not understand how it works, is that we described an issue, the issue should be recreatable save for the fact that, like any other vehicle issue, it isn't an every time thing so, making it do it for the mechanic is gonna be hit or miss, and there is a known TSB for that issue. What I'm saying I guess is, how do I go about proving to the mechanic that it's doing it if it won't do it for him, and the fact that they told us our software was up to date when it clearly isn't, unless I got that part wrong. Thank you for your time helping with this. I'll take any other advice you can give
It doesn't really come down to having to prove to anyone that anything is happening. Really it's about recreating the issue so that we can see what's causing it. It's not that we don't believe things are happening. If we see the concern happen, we can determine what's causing it and/or if it's a normal characteristic of the vehicle.
I would ask the service manager directly to take a technician for a road test so you can show him your concern. Point it out. He will tell you if it's an issue, if it's normal, he'll know how to reproduce the concern for himself for sure, etc. If they don't employ this tactic once in a while, they're missing the boat. I use it all the time and solve a lot of potentially difficult to find problems. We don't always drive the same way as you or lines get crossed between you and the tech because of the middle man service advisor, etc. Worst case scenario, take the service manager for a ride. He can then take the car to the tech and show the tech what you're doing to make the concern happen or what your exact concern is.
I'm trying to figure out how they're calling the RPM flutter a function of the transmission learning, when it's an RPM flutter at restart per the TSB. Is your RPM flutter happening at restart?
No flutter at restart. The flutter happens when holding speed steady between 40-50mph. Without depressing the gas pedal, the tach will jump from about 2500 to 3500, float back down to 3000, back to 3500 and back to 2500 where it will settle down again. Service department said it was looking for the proper gear to be in as it learned how we drive. Just doesn't seem normal, especially since we're on a flat road with no fluctuations of the gas pedal. I would say possibly a lack of power when it's doing it. When the tach flutters, we can't speed up or take our foot off the pedal and coast slower. It's like it's locked in right there until it decides to stop doing it
If I managed to take a video of the tach when it happens, would that help the service department?
Probably not, as they're going to want to be able to see the scan data when it's happening.
Does your car fit the VIN break listed on the first page of the bulletin? I don't want to be "that guy" but the symptoms you're describing don't seem to fit the symptoms listed on the bulletin. Not saying it's a normal or abnormal characteristic, just saying that maybe they're not doing the TSB because it's not going to fix the problem.
Perfect. So not to be that guy again, but that's why dealership service departments don't just do stuff because someone wants it done and why we want to reproduce concerns before randomly shotgunning repairs at them. They didn't do the flash because the service bulletin doesn't apply to your vehicle.
So do we just kind of deal with this and it will eventually go away? How long? If it's 20,000 miles in and still doing it, do we get concerned?
Post by: Woodchuck on June 06, 2017, 04:44:24 PM
Post by: jackelope on June 06, 2017, 04:57:34 PM
Post by: shadowless_nite on June 06, 2017, 06:33:39 PM
:chuckle:
The adaptive learning transmission is a thing, It can take some time, even more time if multiple people driving. :twocents:
I'm not allowed to drive it. I just pay for it :chuckle:
That can be part of the problem....
When these adaptive transmissions first started rolling out, we often had husbands coming in saying their car shifts weird or their brakes grab hard or this and that doesn't "feel right". Then come to find out their wife has absolutely no complaints and its her brand new car that her husband never drives but thinks it should or shouldn't feel a certain way compared to what he drives. If these cars only have 1 main driver that drives a particular route and style over and over these "weird feelings" get enhanced by a more manly pedal feel. And in the end all he was supposed to do was get the oil changed.
Post by: DoubleJ on June 07, 2017, 06:00:36 AM
:chuckle:
The adaptive learning transmission is a thing, It can take some time, even more time if multiple people driving. :twocents:
I'm not allowed to drive it. I just pay for it :chuckle:
That can be part of the problem....
When these adaptive transmissions first started rolling out, we often had husbands coming in saying their car shifts weird or their brakes grab hard or this and that doesn't "feel right". Then come to find out their wife has absolutely no complaints and its her brand new car that her husband never drives but thinks it should or shouldn't feel a certain way compared to what he drives. If these cars only have 1 main driver that drives a particular route and style over and over these "weird feelings" get enhanced by a more manly pedal feel. And in the end all he was supposed to do was get the oil changed.
She is the one complaining though. I don't drive it so I don't notice it.
Post by: Miles on June 07, 2017, 06:39:22 AM
Post by: DoubleJ on June 07, 2017, 07:54:50 AM
Maybe your adaptive learning transmission has a learning disability?
Do I get a handicap placard for that?
Post by: Woodchuck on June 07, 2017, 07:57:22 AM
Yes but you have to have an ASE certified service adviser be your designated shooter. :tup:Maybe your adaptive learning transmission has a learning disability?
Do I get a handicap placard for that?