Post by: JJD on June 21, 2017, 09:29:34 AM
Federal Pittman-Robertson funds keep hunter ed going, but the state Oligarchy says because instructors are covered by the states insurance, we will have to cancel classes IF the legislators do not pass budget by 7/1. I believe that this is the third time they have pulled this crap since I have been an instructor . Every time the budget is in question, we repeat this scenario. The track record indicates that they will likely pass a budget in time, but ya still have to have a plan as to how you will handle the issue should they not. More time wasted.
My pay stays the same regardless, so no monetary damage. However, my time is valuable, don't ask my wife for a second opinion :), and I hate having my time wasted. Returning class fees and explaining why, can be a real pain in the drain.
:bash:
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 21, 2017, 09:37:18 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 21, 2017, 09:45:31 AM
Post by: Bob33 on June 21, 2017, 11:18:00 AM
Post by: bearpaw on June 21, 2017, 11:31:49 AM
Post by: Bob33 on June 21, 2017, 11:36:20 AM
I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 21, 2017, 11:44:18 AM
I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:
This is a double-edged sword, Dale. Without the hunters, you're literally out of business. And fewer new hunters mean fewer people who have a stake in demanding better predator hunting and control. It would be self-defeating to stop creating new hunters because of things we dislike about the department. On the contrary, new blood in hunting can help us put pressure on the rest of the department to get their act together. As such, this is the one section of the WDFW that helps all of us be more effective in getting what we want out of the other sections.
As far as improvement to the education are concerned, I know there's room on the Hunter Education Advisory Board - 2 slots. If you or someone you know wants to see change, that'd be a great starting point. :tup:
Post by: bearpaw on June 21, 2017, 12:14:16 PM
I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
Post by: bearpaw on June 21, 2017, 12:16:24 PM
I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:
This is a double-edged sword, Dale. Without the hunters, you're literally out of business. And fewer new hunters mean fewer people who have a stake in demanding better predator hunting and control. It would be self-defeating to stop creating new hunters because of things we dislike about the department. On the contrary, new blood in hunting can help us put pressure on the rest of the department to get their act together. As such, this is the one section of the WDFW that helps all of us be more effective in getting what we want out of the other sections.
As far as improvement to the education are concerned, I know there's room on the Hunter Education Advisory Board - 2 slots. If you or someone you know wants to see change, that'd be a great starting point. :tup:
WDFW is already doing their best to stop hunting! The only influence left is to cut off their paycheck. How long do you really think it would take them to improve HE opportunity if their high paying jobs were going to end?
Post by: Bob33 on June 21, 2017, 12:19:43 PM
Dale, I understand you don't like WDFW but you've stated the hunter education program needs to be improved. Can you offer some specific suggestions?I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:
This is a double-edged sword, Dale. Without the hunters, you're literally out of business. And fewer new hunters mean fewer people who have a stake in demanding better predator hunting and control. It would be self-defeating to stop creating new hunters because of things we dislike about the department. On the contrary, new blood in hunting can help us put pressure on the rest of the department to get their act together. As such, this is the one section of the WDFW that helps all of us be more effective in getting what we want out of the other sections.
As far as improvement to the education are concerned, I know there's room on the Hunter Education Advisory Board - 2 slots. If you or someone you know wants to see change, that'd be a great starting point. :tup:
WDFW is already doing their best to stop hunting! The only influence left is to cut off their paycheck. How long do you really think it would take them to improve HE opportunity if their high paying jobs were going to end?
Post by: bearpaw on June 21, 2017, 12:21:01 PM
I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
Online classes need to be expanded and range days need to be made far more available at local ranges, again, WDFW has to want this, it does not appear they really want to increase or even maintain hunter numbers!
Post by: bearpaw on June 21, 2017, 12:21:39 PM
I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
apparently you missed that Bob33
Post by: bobcat on June 21, 2017, 12:21:49 PM
Post by: timberfaller on June 21, 2017, 12:22:20 PM
Get their house in order PERIOD!
Post by: bearpaw on June 21, 2017, 12:25:54 PM
Repeal the "Law" that says they HAVE to set aside $$$$$$$ for land purchases! Then sell some of their worthless holdings back to the public!
Get their house in order PERIOD!
Lots of cuts could take place and increased hunter incentives could create more revenue, WDFW could have a surplus and not need general fund money if they were managed differently!
Post by: Bob33 on June 21, 2017, 12:28:18 PM
I did miss it. Thanks.I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
apparently you missed that Bob33
We've been fortunate with our program to have several dedicated and qualified instructors. We tend to lose one or two a year, and pick up one or two replacements. I think we must have more instructors and classes in this part of the state because we don't tend to see the unfilled demand for classes that we did a few years ago.
Post by: KFhunter on June 21, 2017, 12:29:06 PM
I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
and get rid of that online crap
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 21, 2017, 12:32:43 PM
Repeal the "Law" that says they HAVE to set aside $$$$$$$ for land purchases! Then sell some of their worthless holdings back to the public!
Get their house in order PERIOD!
How does this help Hunter Ed if the budget debate shuts it down at the end of the month? :dunno:
Post by: timberfaller on June 21, 2017, 12:35:55 PM
You parents can thank "Risk Management" for some of your woes!! The hunting rules minimums are 20 gauge and 243 in game hunting. We try and accommodate little ones, But "youth" firearms are only so small and small framed kids are still going to have problems.
They purposely made it hard to entice NEW instructor's. I personally had 4 candidates who after seeing how much time and miles it takes to become certified, have bowed out!
I've talked till I was blue in the face about how to get new instructors but it fell on deaf ears. Their "excuse" about the old way of doing it was "the no shows for the PST's" $20 non-refundable! Make it $100 Refundable, YOU cure the no-shows. That is all it would have taken!
oh well rant over :hello:
Post by: Bob33 on June 21, 2017, 12:39:59 PM
What don't you like about the "online crap"? The students we've had come through it are almost universally well prepared.I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
and get rid of that online crap
Post by: hunter399 on June 21, 2017, 12:42:07 PM
I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:I always like to see it improvements.The problem I have is with this.
we get more predator seasons and control.
I don't think a new hunter,or kid should be denied hunter ed over predator seaons or how u feel about wolves or other predators or seasons ,rules,.In a way your getting more predator control by putting more future hunters in the woods we hunt , so this comment makes no sense to me.
Post by: bearpaw on June 21, 2017, 12:51:19 PM
I did miss it. Thanks.I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
apparently you missed that Bob33
We've been fortunate with our program to have several dedicated and qualified instructors. We tend to lose one or two a year, and pick up one or two replacements. I think we must have more instructors and classes in this part of the state because we don't tend to see the unfilled demand for classes that we did a few years ago.
I understand HE instructors have pride in HE, I am in no way belittling the many HE instructors who volunteer their time. My hat is off to HE instructors for putting up with the whole WDFW system. I think there should be more incentives for you guys, including better permit opportunities which might also increase the number of HE instructors. I also have very few complaints about the majority of WDFW field officers, they are mostly good people doing their jobs, we need more of them.
My complaint is with WDFW management! It needs gone through, many positions could probably be eliminated, and the rest need to change their priorities or be replaced!
Post by: bearpaw on June 21, 2017, 12:54:37 PM
I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:I always like to see it improvements.The problem I have is with this.
we get more predator seasons and control.
I don't think a new hunter,or kid should be denied hunter ed over predator seaons or how u feel about wolves or other predators or seasons ,rules,.In a way your getting more predator control by putting more future hunters in the woods we hunt , so this comment makes no sense to me.
My apologies, I'll try to say it more clearly. You hold back the budget until WDFW improves the HE program. Pay checks quit coming out and it would surprise you how fast the program would be improved and more available to more kids! Money is the primary thing WDFW understands! :twocents:
I've got other work to do, gotta go.
Post by: JJD on June 21, 2017, 12:54:59 PM
I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
and get rid of that online crap
So what is your beef with the Online Courses?
Post by: bearpaw on June 21, 2017, 12:56:48 PM
I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
and get rid of that online crap
So what is your beef with the Online Courses?
Ok, I'll answer this before leaving, the range time! Range time needs to be far more available, that is the biggest bottle neck with online! :tup:
Post by: KFhunter on June 21, 2017, 12:58:17 PM
What don't you like about the "online crap"? The students we've had come through it are almost universally well prepared.I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
and get rid of that online crap
Well that's heartening to hear. Do you just focus on the range portion or do you take the time to get a little more in depth about the kids' learning? Or since you have so many kids lined up you just do the range stuff then do the paperwork? Wouldn't it be possible for someone else (parent) to complete the online portion and just focus on getting the kid to pass the range evaluation?
Honest question, I haven't been all the way through the range portion of an online class but I did go through the online class itself on the computer and choose to take my kid to a traditional class after seeing it. I didn't care for the computer class.
Actually this instructor doesn't have a "traditional class" as there's bird dogs involved and some other stuff I think WDFW had to grant special permission for, so this should be a treat or sorts. The guy is getting up there and I don't think anyone will be able to do what he does again once he quits.
Post by: Bob33 on June 21, 2017, 01:04:32 PM
I agree with you on both counts.I did miss it. Thanks.I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
apparently you missed that Bob33
We've been fortunate with our program to have several dedicated and qualified instructors. We tend to lose one or two a year, and pick up one or two replacements. I think we must have more instructors and classes in this part of the state because we don't tend to see the unfilled demand for classes that we did a few years ago.
I understand HE instructors have pride in HE, I am in no way belittling the many HE instructors who volunteer their time. My hat is off to HE instructors for putting up with the whole WDFW system. I think there should be more incentives for you guys, including better permit opportunities which might also increase the number of HE instructors. I also have very few complaints about the majority of WDFW field officers, they are mostly good people doing their jobs, we need more of them.
My complaint is with WDFW management! It needs gone through, many positions could probably be eliminated, and the rest need to change their priorities or be replaced!
I don't know of very many instructors who do it for the incentives (we do get overpaid :chuckle:) but it's nice to get some recognition.
The following is an excerpt from an email I received from one of our students in a spring class this year. He and his girlfriend had never hunted, but wanted to start. He asked lots of questions in class, and continued to ask (bordering on "pester") me questions via email about turkey hunting after the class. He went turkey hunting and got his first wild animal (a turkey.) It's things like this that makes it most rewarding:
In summary I can't stop thinking about the moment I took that shot. It changed me. I have a whole new respect for hunting. It truly is something amazing about our species. Despite being charged like a bolt of lightening I vividly remember the fractions of a second leading up to the trigger being pulled. After the shot and even the car ride back we felt like that we were indeed hunters.
Thanks again for the amazing class and all the help. It truly made a difference and made something unknown to us less intimidating.
Post by: KFhunter on June 21, 2017, 01:08:15 PM
Quote
In summary I can't stop thinking about the moment I took that shot. It changed me. I have a whole new respect for hunting. It truly is something amazing about our species. Despite being charged like a bolt of lightening I vividly remember the fractions of a second leading up to the trigger being pulled. After the shot and even the car ride back we felt like that we were indeed hunters.
Thanks again for the amazing class and all the help. It truly made a difference and made something unknown to us less intimidating.
Would you have seen a letter like this if the new hunter took an online class instead of a traditional hands on class?
Would you have been able to make such an impact on this person?
Would you have been able to answer all those questions and developed a tutor/mentor type relationship?
and finally, without that guidance would they have even gone hunting?
Post by: Russ McDonald on June 21, 2017, 01:11:52 PM
Since I am new to the HE instructor ranks I hope that I can shed some light from what I have seen. I believe that most of us in the 35+ range would much rather take a traditional class but in todays technology must under the age of 35 and under whats it right now so they created the online course. I have gone through 4 classes right now and I think that the kids are well prepared. I get some great questions during the field course.What don't you like about the "online crap"? The students we've had come through it are almost universally well prepared.I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
and get rid of that online crap
Well that's heartening to hear. Do you just focus on the range portion or do you take the time to get a little more in depth about the kids' learning? Or since you have so many kids lined up you just do the range stuff then do the paperwork? Wouldn't it be possible for someone else (parent) to complete the online portion and just focus on getting the kid to pass the range evaluation?
Honest question, I haven't been all the way through the range portion of an online class but I did go through the online class itself on the computer and choose to take my kid to a traditional class after seeing it. I didn't care for the computer class.
Actually this instructor doesn't have a "traditional class" as there's bird dogs involved and some other stuff I think WDFW had to grant special permission for.
@bearpaw Dale I don't know if this is partially the eastside and maybe not so many instructors but here I know of at least 3 different groups doing hunters ed within and 30 mile area and I know our group is doing 3 classes a month on Saturday afternoons. Right now there isn't a big push for HE classes. They aren't really that many people in them right now. Instructors have said that it picks up come August.
Post by: Russ McDonald on June 21, 2017, 01:16:16 PM
Yes, I have done it in a few of the online classes. It is how personable you make your self during the training. I even recruited a new member to the forum from one class. I offer up plenty of resources to look beyond what we can give them in class. I do agree with the traditional classes. They have their place in the systemQuoteIn summary I can't stop thinking about the moment I took that shot. It changed me. I have a whole new respect for hunting. It truly is something amazing about our species. Despite being charged like a bolt of lightening I vividly remember the fractions of a second leading up to the trigger being pulled. After the shot and even the car ride back we felt like that we were indeed hunters.
Thanks again for the amazing class and all the help. It truly made a difference and made something unknown to us less intimidating.
Would you have seen a letter like this if the new hunter took an online class instead of a traditional hands on class?
Would you have been able to make such an impact on this person?
Would you have been able to answer all those questions and developed a tutor/mentor type relationship?
and finally, without that guidance would they have even gone hunting?
Post by: Bob33 on June 21, 2017, 01:20:20 PM
When the online program first started, I was skeptical. After having seen a lot of students come through the program, I’ve concluded that it’s an effective way to train certain types of students. It is self-study, and is paced so that students can’t rush through it just to take the exam.QuoteIn summary I can't stop thinking about the moment I took that shot. It changed me. I have a whole new respect for hunting. It truly is something amazing about our species. Despite being charged like a bolt of lightening I vividly remember the fractions of a second leading up to the trigger being pulled. After the shot and even the car ride back we felt like that we were indeed hunters.
Thanks again for the amazing class and all the help. It truly made a difference and made something unknown to us less intimidating.
Would you have seen a letter like this if the new hunter took an online class instead of a traditional hands on class?
Would you have been able to make such an impact on this person?
Would you have been able to answer all those questions and developed a tutor/mentor type relationship?
and finally, without that guidance would they have even gone hunting?
We do spend time with the students instructing them with hands on firearms handling, and also have them go through simulated obstacle courses to confirm they demonstrate good muzzle control.
It works well with students that have the discipline to complete a program via self-motivation. We do encourage younger students to take a traditional classroom course.
I’ve seen far more students in traditional classes that are really too young or immature. It’s obvious in many cases they really don’t want to be there, but were pushed to do so by a parent. I’ve not seen that in an online evaluation.
It is easier to “bond” with students in a lengthier traditional course, but that’s not really the purpose of the program.
Having both types of programs available is a good thing, as it reaches a broader spectrum of new hunters.
To quote Bearpaw: “Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available.”
Post by: boneaddict on June 21, 2017, 01:25:07 PM
Quote
Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available.
BAM!
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 21, 2017, 01:32:12 PM
Post by: Bob33 on June 21, 2017, 01:38:16 PM
I currently teach with a group that won't do any online classes. I think not doing them is a mistake. Although I feel that younger hunters get more from the traditional classes, I also feel that older students, especially single moms and dads who want to accompany their children, will be more likely to sign up for something that more easily fits their busy schedule. I have confidence in the course unless a parent allows a child to be coached through it just to get them certified. That's the one drawback I see with room for mistakes going forward.That was a concern I had, and it can happen. However, after having observed 100s of students come through the program I've yet to see one that appeared to have been coached to pass. I've seen more students in our traditional classes that are being pushed by a parent.
Two different methods, each with pros and cons.
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 21, 2017, 01:47:26 PM
Post by: bigtex on June 21, 2017, 01:47:38 PM
I understand HE instructors have pride in HE, I am in no way belittling the many HE instructors who volunteer their time. My hat is off to HE instructors for putting up with the whole WDFW system. I think there should be more incentives for you guys, including better permit opportunities which might also increase the number of HE instructors.And how much more incentives should WDFW offer? Make them paid hourly employees? Heck, 15 years ago there weren't even HE instructor special permits, WDFW instituted it as an incentive, and now some want more incentives then that.
The fact is every state has a HE instructor shortage. I think what it really comes down to is people now have busier lives. When I was growing up you had little league sports and school sports, nowadays you have year round club sports which obviously takes up a lot of parents time. That's just one example. I don't think it's an incentive issue, its a time issue.
Post by: Bob33 on June 21, 2017, 01:53:19 PM
More ways to offer classes. Only one way to offer classes.
And so it goes...
Post by: Smoke on June 21, 2017, 02:34:07 PM
Post by: bearpaw on June 21, 2017, 02:43:02 PM
Since I am new to the HE instructor ranks I hope that I can shed some light from what I have seen. I believe that most of us in the 35+ range would much rather take a traditional class but in todays technology must under the age of 35 and under whats it right now so they created the online course. I have gone through 4 classes right now and I think that the kids are well prepared. I get some great questions during the field course.What don't you like about the "online crap"? The students we've had come through it are almost universally well prepared.I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
and get rid of that online crap
Well that's heartening to hear. Do you just focus on the range portion or do you take the time to get a little more in depth about the kids' learning? Or since you have so many kids lined up you just do the range stuff then do the paperwork? Wouldn't it be possible for someone else (parent) to complete the online portion and just focus on getting the kid to pass the range evaluation?
Honest question, I haven't been all the way through the range portion of an online class but I did go through the online class itself on the computer and choose to take my kid to a traditional class after seeing it. I didn't care for the computer class.
Actually this instructor doesn't have a "traditional class" as there's bird dogs involved and some other stuff I think WDFW had to grant special permission for.
@bearpaw Dale I don't know if this is partially the eastside and maybe not so many instructors but here I know of at least 3 different groups doing hunters ed within and 30 mile area and I know our group is doing 3 classes a month on Saturday afternoons. Right now there isn't a big push for HE classes. They aren't really that many people in them right now. Instructors have said that it picks up come August.
That's awesome that your group is making HE very available!
Post by: seth30 on June 21, 2017, 02:44:24 PM
Here we go again with the no budget, no hunter ed.I thought the legalization of MJ would solve all our tax problems.. Oh wait :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:
Federal Pittman-Robertson funds keep hunter ed going, but the state Oligarchy says because instructors are covered by the states insurance, we will have to cancel classes IF the legislators do not pass budget by 7/1. I believe that this is the third time they have pulled this crap since I have been an instructor . Every time the budget is in question, we repeat this scenario. The track record indicates that they will likely pass a budget in time, but ya still have to have a plan as to how you will handle the issue should they not. More time wasted.
My pay stays the same regardless, so no monetary damage. However, my time is valuable, don't ask my wife for a second opinion :), and I hate having my time wasted. Returning class fees and explaining why, can be a real pain in the drain.
:bash:
Post by: KFhunter on June 21, 2017, 02:54:41 PM
Post by: kselkhunter on June 21, 2017, 02:55:31 PM
I want to thank all the HE instructors for their time and service to the hunting community, thanks for all you do :tup::yeah:
Post by: bearpaw on June 21, 2017, 02:59:38 PM
just wanted to chime in on the on-line course and mom or dad doing the on-line stuff then coaching the kid thru it... I'm an instructor myself doing mostly on-line courses.. we do a 4 hour classroom where we review the main topics to refresh the kids memories (some completed the online part more then a month ago).. they are then given a test they must pass before going to the field portion... if mom or dad did the course for them, they won't pass.... seen it... as for the poster pissed about the firearms for the kids... I agree, it's hard for a small kid to handle some of the rifles/shotguns made for adults... things are on the improve tho... our new firearms we received this year include 2 small frame rifles for kids... we don't use and won't use your firearms for the class because all our firearms (with the exception of the one's used on the range) are disabled... no firing pins... yours are not...
That's great, hoping to see more availability for range days! If we want hunting to survive we must recruit more hunters! That means by providing HE opportunities.
Post by: bearpaw on June 21, 2017, 03:00:11 PM
I want to thank all the HE instructors for their time and service to the hunting community, thanks for all you do :tup::yeah:
:yeah: x3
Post by: ghosthunter on June 21, 2017, 03:19:53 PM
I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I get calls every year from people who can't get in HE class wanting to know if I know where they can get HE. Classes need to be more available and could be more available in a multitude of ways if WDFW really wanted to make HE more available. Even an uneducated person can clearly see that you reduce the number of hunters if you require hunter safety but do not provide classes for hunters to get HE. Every year old hunters die or quit hunting and new persons wanting to start hunting cannot get HE. That is a FACT!
- Allow private instruction (currently many classes are offered for people to get concealed weapons permits)
- WDFW needs to more aggressively recruit HE volunteers and make the system to be certified more available with hours to accommodate volunteers
Those are the first two easy ways that come to mind to make HE more available if WDFW wanted HE to be more available! :twocents:
One of the issues is people wait to long to find a class. I have a class going right now. They had three weeks to sign up for it and it is only half full. The reason too many folks wait till the last minute and than want to find a class. Hunter ed is taught by Hunters, who want to go hunting. Bear starts Aug. 1, Grouse Sept. 1, and than the big game seasons.
I will be finished with my 2nd class this year by mid July.
But folks who should be looking now for Hunter Ed options wont do it until the very last minute.
I have gotten 50 calls in October for folks who wanted to go Modern deer hunting, as I was going out the door to hunt myself.
There is room for improvement though. The state should charge 25.00 deposit for anyone who wants to sign up for a class. But they don't. Thus people sign up for several classes tying up seats and than never show up. Spots lost.
Yeah instructors could charge the deposit and some do. But I wont. I want the state to handle their own money. People buy tags on line no reason they cant do the same with Hunter ed.
If I take the money , I got to track it all year. I don't want to do it.
Look at how many hunters put in for their permits at the last minute. Same folks drag their feet on Hunter Ed.
Post by: ghosthunter on June 21, 2017, 03:34:59 PM
I currently teach with a group that won't do any online classes. I think not doing them is a mistake. Although I feel that younger hunters get more from the traditional classes, I also feel that older students, especially single moms and dads who want to accompany their children, will be more likely to sign up for something that more easily fits their busy schedule. I have confidence in the course unless a parent allows a child to be coached through it just to get them certified. That's the one drawback I see with room for mistakes going forward.
I wont do on line classes and here is why.
I got into Hunter ed over 25 years ago after my hunting partner got shot. I got into Hunter ed to teach safe gun handling. I teach other stuff because the program requires it. But safe gun handling is the heart and soul of why I do it.
For the same reason I have refused to use State fake guns (Orange) Yeah ,yeah they work like a regular gun. But they ate only one manufacture . I bring in about 20 different guns and let my students gun handle every night. Different safeties ,triggers , special buttons to make that shotgun work.
At the end they shoot youth 20 ga state owed shotgun, that it. There is no reason students should be required to shoot every gun on the planet.
Heck some instructors use pellet guns.
Any instructor who is putting too big of a firearm in a students hands and requiring them to fire it should not be teaching Hunter ed. :twocents:
There are ways to satisfy the range requirement at any instructors disposal if they aren't to suborn to use it. :twocents:
Post by: ghosthunter on June 21, 2017, 03:48:52 PM
I think there is a lot of Hunter ed classes out there that are just too elaborate.
Fancy field courses and all kinds of unnecessary fluff . Which really doesn't make the student any safer of a hunter.
Just extra hoops that a student has to jump through.
In the end we don't want them to shoot themselves or any one else. And we want them to be ethical.
Post by: JDHasty on June 21, 2017, 04:04:46 PM
One more comment.
I think there is a lot of Hunter ed classes out there that are just too elaborate.
Fancy field courses and all kinds of unnecessary fluff . Which really doesn't make the student any safer of a hunter.
Just extra hoops that a student has to jump through.
In the end we don't want them to shoot themselves or any one else. And we want them to be ethical.
Ya' don't say?
Post by: olyguy79 on June 21, 2017, 05:30:20 PM
-- From a HE instructor.
Post by: ghosthunter on June 21, 2017, 07:35:00 PM
If your an HE instructor because of the incentives then you shouldn't be an HE instructor.
-- From a HE instructor.
:yeah:
Post by: jay.sharkbait on June 21, 2017, 07:42:02 PM
Post by: brew on June 21, 2017, 08:09:29 PM
Post by: Bob33 on June 21, 2017, 08:17:52 PM
Post by: KFhunter on June 21, 2017, 08:22:52 PM
Post by: wheels on June 21, 2017, 08:32:16 PM
Post by: ghosthunter on June 21, 2017, 08:51:36 PM
i'm a hunter ed insructor and the only reason WDFW has it is to cover their a$$. when i took the class originally in the late 70's it was an 6 hour class in the local scout cabin and as long as you passed the written test you got your license. there was no firearms handling aspect to it at all. 40 years later i still haven't shot anyone (or come anywhere close to it) so i guess all you need is some classroom instruction...as far as i'm concerened all the elaborate HE now-a-days is just a CYA for the WDFW. why not charge licenses an extra dollar or two and put that into an insurance fund so when claims are made against the WDFW they can pay that out rather than try to enlist additional HE instructors ? i'm sure my "logic" is completely flawed but why not have a parent or guardian sign a waiver saying their son/daughter/student is completely versed on safe hunting practices (if over 18 they can sign off on it themselves) and they are ultimately responsible for their own actions ?
I went trough Hunter Ed in 1966. And you are right,a written test and that was it.
The difference being back then every kid in the class had already shot a gun many times. When they came home there was rifle or shotgun leaning up in the corner loaded.
As kids we hunted rats with .22 in our back yards after school and already had been on many hunting trips before we ever took a class.
At 16 we walked into the local gun shop and gave the owner 20.00 a month to pay off our hunting rifle on law away. $110.00 total.
Now days a Hunter Ed instructor has adults coming through the door who have never touched a firearm. Many who couldn't tell you the difference between a rifle or shotgun.
Some kind of training is nessary
Post by: JJD on June 25, 2017, 09:26:42 AM
If it were up to them, we would have no firearms, real or otherwise in the classes. They might even want to end hunting as by issuing a lic to take part in a dangerous past time, the state could be implicated in a wrongful death suit. :rolleyes: Even though they can not site a single firearms related incident, since the inception of the hunter ed program, they claim that the potential exists. It's what happens when those who know nothing about arms or hunting are calling the shots.
Not saying change is always a bad thing, besides, it's gonna happen whether we want it or not. At the least, we can attempt to be reasonably intelligent about it, but thats not possible if Risk Management is calling the shots.
Post by: cem3434 on June 25, 2017, 10:24:21 AM
I think they should eliminate the hunters ed requirement altogether.
I'll bite because this seems like an ignorant statement. What would you propose instead? Many people get into hunting that didn't grow up in hunting families or they have very limited firearm experience. I don't thing that the hunters education requirement is the greatest training, but it's better than nothing IMHO.
Post by: Bob33 on June 25, 2017, 10:43:43 AM
Post by: jay.sharkbait on June 25, 2017, 10:45:53 AM
I think they should eliminate the hunters ed requirement altogether.
I'll bite because this seems like an ignorant statement. What would you propose instead? Many people get into hunting that didn't grow up in hunting families or they have very limited firearm experience. I don't thing that the hunters education requirement is the greatest training, but it's better than nothing IMHO.
I would propose nothing.
It isn't up to the state to provide/mandate firearms training to anyone.
Washington is a shall issue state for CCW. Why should hunting licenses be any different?
Post by: Curly on June 25, 2017, 12:34:30 PM
I took hunters ed in 1978 or 79. If I'm remembering right, it was a few evenings of 1 - 1.5 hours a night and a short written exam at the final evening. No shooting of firearms and I don't think we even handled a firearm in class.
I'm not saying we should go back to the way it used to be, but couldn't it be streamlined a little more to discuss mostly safety? If time is the biggest hurdle then why not eliminate some of the fluff? :dunno: Then more classes could be taught.
Isn't the main objective of the class to teach safe firearm handling so that firearm related accidents are minimized?
Post by: GUscottie on June 25, 2017, 01:09:58 PM
I think they should eliminate the hunters ed requirement altogether.
I'll bite because this seems like an ignorant statement. What would you propose instead? Many people get into hunting that didn't grow up in hunting families or they have very limited firearm experience. I don't thing that the hunters education requirement is the greatest training, but it's better than nothing IMHO.
I would propose nothing.
It isn't up to the state to provide/mandate firearms training to anyone.
Washington is a shall issue state for CCW. Why should hunting licenses be any different?
Then people, like myself, couldn't hunt in other states. Wyoming for example, requires you to carry your HE card with you while in the field. You can (and will) be fined. I got a stiff warning for not having my HE card with me. He showed me the statute that required it. If we, Washington, don't have a HE requirement, we would have to attend an HE course in other states to hunt...Not at all efficient or logical in my opinion.
Post by: jay.sharkbait on June 25, 2017, 01:50:05 PM
I think they should eliminate the hunters ed requirement altogether.
I'll bite because this seems like an ignorant statement. What would you propose instead? Many people get into hunting that didn't grow up in hunting families or they have very limited firearm experience. I don't thing that the hunters education requirement is the greatest training, but it's better than nothing IMHO.
I would propose nothing.
It isn't up to the state to provide/mandate firearms training to anyone.
Washington is a shall issue state for CCW. Why should hunting licenses be any different?
Then people, like myself, couldn't hunt in other states. Wyoming for example, requires you to carry your HE card with you while in the field. You can (and will) be fined. I got a stiff warning for not having my HE card with me. He showed me the statute that required it. If we, Washington, don't have a HE requirement, we would have to attend an HE course in other states to hunt...Not at all efficient or logical in my opinion.
I thought we were talking about Wa......
Post by: JJD on June 29, 2017, 12:23:32 PM
It does seem that these days the classes teach a lot of stuff that isn't necessary to firearm safety.
I took hunters ed in 1978 or 79. If I'm remembering right, it was a few evenings of 1 - 1.5 hours a night and a short written exam at the final evening. No shooting of firearms and I don't think we even handled a firearm in class.
I'm not saying we should go back to the way it used to be, but couldn't it be streamlined a little more to discuss mostly safety? If time is the biggest hurdle then why not eliminate some of the fluff? :dunno: Then more classes could be taught.
Isn't the main objective of the class to teach safe firearm handling so that firearm related accidents are minimized?
Hunter Ed is about more than firearms safety although the original purpose was to reduce hunting incidents.
It also helps students understand wildlife management, ethics and why they are needed. I believe wildlife management is necessary, but I don't always agree on how it's implemented in this state. I would venture to guess that nearly 50% of the students who go through my traditional class will never buy a lic, but they walk away with a better understanding of wildlife and the tools the WDFW use to manage their numbers (like them or no) and why. When they vote down the road, they may be able to determine that what the "Anti's" preach is pure BS.
I believe the current curriculum has merit, but the rules and regulations boarder on the ridiculous. The state trembles with fear at the sight of their own shadow.
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 29, 2017, 01:05:30 PM
Post by: Netminder01 on June 29, 2017, 07:10:23 PM
I would like to see their budget dry up until Hunter Education is improved and we get more predator seasons and control. They have to make the first move or no budget! :twocents:What improvements do you believe should be made to hunter education?
I have a few ideas to share that I'm working on over our next coffee. :IBCOOL: