Hunting Washington Forum

Community => Photo & Video => Topic started by: Grizzle on February 25, 2009, 11:31:32 PM

Title: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: Grizzle on February 25, 2009, 11:31:32 PM: Thanks for responses.

Shawn had recommended these two options in previous threads and I'm not sure if one is better than the other (though he did say he didnt like the 100-400 lens). Both of these seem to be about the same cost based on new prices.

300mm f4 IS and paired with a 1.4x or a 100-400mm f5.6 IS

Advantages 300mm:
1. lighter 2.4lbs with extender versus 3lbs of the 400
2. 420mm length when paired with the 1.4x
3. Prime lenses are sharper than zooms?

Thanks again
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: boneaddict on February 26, 2009, 06:16:00 AM: Its been my experience that the extender works much better with primes than with zooms. Some folks have issues getting th eshots with a fixed prime, but it becomes second nature before too long.
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: popeshawnpaul on February 26, 2009, 08:47:41 AM: This is really what it comes down to for affordable good glass with image stabilization. The 100-400 isn't really a 400 on the long end, it's really about 380mm. So the 300mm f4 with a 1.4x becomes a 420mm f5.6. It's an extra 40mm over the 380 of the 100-400. I hope that makes sense.

The 300mm f4 is sharper than the 100-400 zoomed at 300mm. The 300mm f4 is slightly better or the same at 420mm with a 1.4x on than the 100-400 zoomed all the way to 380mm. In my personal experience, the 300mm f4 with the 1.4x is better than the 100-400 on the long end but I know many people who claim to have "sharp" copies of the 100-400 and say they are about equal.

The 300mm f4 is not as versatile as the 100-400 as it can't ever be a 100mm or 200mm lens like the 100-400 can. Me personally, I shoot at the long end of a zoom about 90% of the time trying to get as much reach as I can so this isn't a problem for me. Additionally, I have a quality 70-200mm so I have the low end of the focal range covered anyways.

Advise if you are deciding on the 100-400: Get a new one. The push pull design of the zoom can have problems over time and get loose. Also, there have been many many posts that the newer versions are better optically than the old ones. You need to look at the date code on the lens. I have heard good things about UW date code 100-400mm lenses and newer. If you don't know what the date code means, go here... http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Canon-Lenses/Canon-Lens-Aging.aspx

In conclusion, Grizzle is right. The 300mm f4 is lighter, longer, and sharper. It's just not as versatile. Your decision...?

Here is an example of why I don't care for the 100-400. This is a 100% crop of an image. When looking to see detail in a lens I always look to hair or feather detail. If you can see individual hairs, then it's sharp. If you can't and it is muddy looking, then it's not. In my test shot the cali bighorn was a ways away. I have cropped down to about 800 pixels wide. With a 300mm f2.8 or another noted sharp lens you would see detail in the hair. However, you just don't see it in this photo. This is the type of quality I can't stand from the 100-400.

ISO 100, f5.6, 1/750th
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: huntnphool on February 26, 2009, 09:40:55 AM: FWIW, I agree with Pope that the 100-400 is not as sharp as the fixed focal length lenses however, you have to know Pope personally to understand what he is talking about. "Sharp" is relative to the individual. Are you going to be selling to magazines? if so then the 100-400 is probably not going to get you many transactions. If you are taking pics to enjoy yourself or perhaps share on the internet forums such as this one then the 100-400 is a great lens when you take into account the versatility. Both of these pics are from a 100-400IS at 400mm, and although not tack sharp for a magazine, they look just fine IMHO for printing and for sharing over the internet. Pope sometimes forgets when he gives us advice that he is talking to mortals and not pro's like Kirk :chuckle: The nice thing about Pope is you know that if he is giving you advice its not going to be simply adequate advice, it may be expensive but bet your ass its dead on!!!

P.S. Make sure you "click" on the pictures to get the full image.
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: popeshawnpaul on February 26, 2009, 10:08:13 AM: That photo is definitely sharper huntnphool. You might have had one of those newer UW date code 100-400 lenses. I have little doubt I have never shot with a copy that is as sharp as I have seen other people shoot with. Some people I trust swear by the newer copies. :dunno:
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: huntnphool on February 26, 2009, 10:15:01 AM: Quote
You might have had one of those newer UW date code 100-400 lenses.

No doubt Shawn, this was the one from Lensrental I told you about, it looked brand new when it showed up at the house. I was close to calling him and telling him to just bill me I'm keeping it. :chuckle:
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: Slider on February 26, 2009, 12:58:49 PM: The reason you would want the sharpest lens you could afford, is for that once in a lifetime photo you might capture!!!
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: Grizzle on February 26, 2009, 10:49:24 PM: Thanks guys. I'm going to head to Glazers and check out the lenses. Does anyone know the shortest "stowed for travel" length dimensions of the 300 and the 100-400?

Canon's site says the 300 is 8.7", plus 1" for the extender? So a total fixed length of ~10"

I can only find what is stated as the maximum length of the 100-400 which is 7.4". I suspect this is actually its closed length and extends much longer when fully opened.

Thanks again
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: huntnphool on February 26, 2009, 11:05:14 PM: I think that is correct :dunno:

FWIW, if you need to rent a lens I can highly recommend www.lensrental.com they are much cheaper than Glazers, it comes right to your door, and every lens I have ever rented from them has been in excellent shape :twocents:
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: Grizzle on February 27, 2009, 07:25:02 PM: Thanks for each of your responses.

I rented both lenses from Glazers for the weekend. Nice Friday afternoon to Monday morning rental deal at ~$25. It was a good suggestion to get my hands on them and play with them.
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: whacker1 on February 27, 2009, 07:35:11 PM: so for the novice that is still shopping (and probably will be for another quarter or so) - what are we looking at for new costs?
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: Slider on February 27, 2009, 08:12:31 PM: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/8454/SLR_Interchangeable_Lenses_for_Canon.html
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: whacker1 on February 27, 2009, 08:19:30 PM: so $1400 ish should be what I would expect for either combination - was I viewing the correct lenses?
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: popeshawnpaul on February 27, 2009, 08:21:41 PM: You can find either combination used for about $1100 at fredmiranda.com. They both hold their value well.
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: Grizzle on February 27, 2009, 08:32:31 PM: $1500 if bought new online, +$350(including taxes) if bought locally.

...internet camera equipment sales must be a daily kick in the stones for local camera shops.
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: popeshawnpaul on February 27, 2009, 08:40:18 PM: There are basically no local shops except Glazers in Seattle. I heard Ritz/Cameras West went bankrupt this week.
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: Grizzle on February 27, 2009, 08:56:24 PM: Given the summary of all advice...especially regarding the 100-400 and the need to get a late model, I can't see myself trying to find a used one. I must have read ~250 reviews on the 100-400 from fredmiranda, and seems clear that a lot of the older lenses would benefit from a $200 calibration at Canon. Plus this lens seems to have a dogged reputation for clarity variations between lenses leading people to do multiple returns until they find a "sharp" copy.

Obviously its a personal decision, but as a novice I'd rather pay the $1450 with shipping included then try to wheel and deal to save $300 on a lens of unknown provenance, no warranty, and little chance to return it based on it being "soft".
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: Grizzle on February 27, 2009, 10:02:55 PM: Shawn thanks especially to you for all the responses and educational material you've put up on the site.

Your recommendation of the 300 F/4 with the 1.4x seems bang on as the best dollar value in the 400mm range. For stalking up on wildlife that you know you'll be shooting at max zoom, it seems like a no brainer over the 100-400. In addition to the benefits we've already stated (clarity, longer reach), it's physically shorter (feels much shorter), lighter (feels much lighter), smaller in diameter, and simpler. Feels svelte in hand by comparison.

That said the 100-400 is not without its charms. Running around Seattle center today the lens gave this novice many more shot opportunities (kid on the run, finding targets then zooming in on them, etc) than the 300 prime. The 50D did a great job for me in full auto P&S mode with the 100-400, AF was always fast at all ranges. For some reason the camera got lost several times with the 300/1.4x and would hunt around (totally user error I'm sure). Being new to telephoto the weight and size of the lens was a shock.

So for a novice summary - for the telephoto hunting game with a camera @ the $1000-$1500 range, the 300/1.4x is the superior combo. If you can get a good copy, the 100-400 shines like the family hunting dog does 10mo of the year he isnt hunting, just being your versatile all around good buddy.
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: Grizzle on February 27, 2009, 10:09:54 PM: For this novice unaccustomed to telephoto lenses, the difference in size between these lenses felt significant. Its surprising to see these pictures and realize that the 300 has the same (300 in pic #1, or 420mm in pic #2) or superior focal length despite its smaller size.
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: popeshawnpaul on February 27, 2009, 11:30:42 PM: I always hate the idea of buying a lens and you know you will be using it with a 1.4x most of the time. I'm a big believer in just buying the focal length of the lens you need. However, Canon just doesn't have a good 400mm option with IS that is affordable. You made a very good observation about the 300 with the 1.4x...it will hunt. Focus gets slow at f5.6 and adding a teleconverter to a lens always slows down the autofocus. If I had the 300 f4, I would try and use it without the 1.4x as much as possible. I also think your reasoning about buying a new lens is spot on unless you know and trust your source. Great thread.

P.S. - I think a few guys in the know would really chime in with a recommendation for the 400mm f5.6. With the high ISO capability of the cameras these days, f5.6 isn't that slow for outdoor wildlife photography. That lens is really sharp as well. If you are ok with using a tripod/monopod and shooting high ISO and have good technique in holding a lens stable, this could be the lens for you. Certainly, it is sharper than the 300 f4 with the 1.4x. I personally can't live without IS or choose not to so I take this lens out of the equation.
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: Grizzle on March 01, 2009, 08:33:12 PM: Additional observations for the record.

The built in sunshade on the 300 is more convenient then the removable salad bowl shade on the 100-400. Frankly I doubt I would even ever bring the 100-400 shade with me when hiking.

The 300 has a macro function that's really easy to use and pretty cool. I couldnt get the 100-400 to do it (focus on a flower 3' away) at any focal length.

The IS and AF is considerably more audible on the 300 in comparison to the 100-400

The tensioning ring for the zoom on the 100-400 is sort of a hassle in my opinion. I suppose you'd build up a technique were it would be come second nature to snug it up each time you're finished shooting and want to let it hang. If you don't snug it, the zoom creep/slide/slam down to the maximum 400 length. I couldnt find a tension setting where the zoom would not creep down and yet still be smooth enough to use the zoom comfortably.

I'm 90% sure I'll buy the 300.
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: e55komp on March 07, 2009, 06:17:08 PM: (http://019.JPG)
i dont know seems pretty sharp to me. 400mm f5.6
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: huntnphool on March 08, 2009, 11:52:18 AM: Welcome e55, you should have posted up a sharp rearend pic of your car rather than a hippo ;) My wife drives the E series as well, not a 55 but its the "Sport" at least.
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: popeshawnpaul on March 09, 2009, 03:40:00 PM: I have had a couple conversations with a few pros about this lens. They swear there are sharp copies that rival the 400mm f5.6. I am in the process of getting a hold of one of these to try out. They have looked at my sample images from many different versions of this lens and tell me it is very common for older versions. I'll let you know if I ever find a sharp one...
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: Ricochet on March 09, 2009, 11:29:57 PM: Or you could come over to the dark side.... ;)
I like my cheap zoom 80-400 VR Nikon and although it too is soft at 400, as long as I don't max it out in low light situations, it does OK. I especially like the flexability of using the zoom to frame my shot. I couldn't afford a variety of lenses, so went with the most versatile one I could afford.
I spent a couple days chasing this bull around, took pics from 80mm to 360 and never had to change a lens. Zooms do have advantages at times.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi17.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb60%2Frenegade54%2FDSC_5391nxw.jpg&hash=a8c7fc297b6b96b7c774e3148b516adf26410428)
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: huntnphool on March 10, 2009, 12:36:54 AM: that is a nice bull, what do you guess for a gross on that guy?
Title: Re: Best Lens combo - 300mm with 1.4x or 100-400mm?
Post by: whacker1 on March 10, 2009, 09:09:06 AM: Wow - very impressive bull and pic. That Bull appears to be in the 360 range if I were guessing. It looks like great length, width is a little hard to tell based on the pic, and mass is decent.