Post by: WapitiTalk1 on July 21, 2017, 10:34:55 PM
Thought I'd bring this one up again as the season is approaching us.... When hunting in big bear country, do you prefer to carry bear spray or a big bore pistol? I normally don't carry any anti-big bear, or for that matter, any other anti-big mammal measure, while hunting elk in grizzly country unless I'm going back in on a kill (that's just me). When I do strap something to my body, I carry a Taurus UL Model 444 .44 MAG with 305 GN solid lead HSM bear loads. I feel that if it ever came down to "it", I want to be able to disrupt the critter's nervous system (something I don't believe aerosol spray can do), even if its dragging me away by my leg. What do you cats feel about this and what do you/will you carry this fall on your trip(s) into big carnivore country? Just sparking some conversation ;). RJ
Post by: Oh Mah on July 21, 2017, 10:41:36 PM
Post by: yakimanoob on July 21, 2017, 10:50:12 PM
Even if I had a big bore pistol, I'd never think about taking on an angry grizzly with it.
Post by: kselkhunter on July 21, 2017, 11:01:35 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on July 22, 2017, 01:48:37 AM
Post by: nwwanderer on July 22, 2017, 06:55:50 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 22, 2017, 08:39:53 AM
Post by: Mudman on July 22, 2017, 08:41:55 AM
Post by: Scheindogg on July 22, 2017, 09:07:53 AM
I'm (hopefully) about to pick up a glock 20 (15rnds 10mm) that I will bring with.
Of course my .308 rifle will be option #1 then my 10MM will be my backup!
Post by: jackelope on July 22, 2017, 11:01:30 AM
Post by: hunter399 on July 22, 2017, 11:24:39 AM
This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me my rifle is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless.
Some people have the ability,A rifle in the hand is better than any pistol or bear spray .
Post by: j_h_nimrod on July 22, 2017, 12:19:07 PM
The undeniable best, all-around for defense is what you have in your hand when you need it.
Post by: Bob33 on July 22, 2017, 01:10:14 PM
I'm always curious to know who of you think you have the wherewithal to accurately place a killing/disabling shot or 3 into a big bear when it's pissed off and coming for you at 20+mph. Lots of talk, but when the ish hits the fan.... what's going to give you the best opportunity to slow/stop/turn that bear?? A rifle with a scope on it would be my last consideration, unless of course it was all I had. There's a reason the guides in AK real bear country and in Africa that carry rifles as defense guns don't have scopers on their rifles.30 yards in 3 seconds. One alligator, two alligator, three alligator CHOMP..
Post by: Stein on July 22, 2017, 01:55:52 PM
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Post by: WapitiTalk1 on July 23, 2017, 08:41:28 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi_Krx6C_7w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi_Krx6C_7w)
Post by: Brushcrawler on July 23, 2017, 09:21:05 AM
Post by: Stein on July 23, 2017, 09:53:14 AM
I always like to share this VID from F. Eichler when we discuss this topic. I seriously doubt if a "pfffssst" sound would have stopped this mama brown bear like the big boom did. The big boom in itself, is a pretty darn good deterrent for a startled bear (I've used it a few times myself on annoying black bears and saw it in action once on Chichagoff Island (sp?) outside of Sitka while doing a nature hike on the island my pop was logging on). The effects of pepper spray are nasty indeed but I'm not so sure that they are as immediate in their desired effect to "turn" a big bear as 1. the big boom and certainly 2. nervous system disruption by a big chunk of lead being blasted through muscle, bone, organs. One other downfall of spray is that is affected by wind, and, cannot be shot through tent material. Good discussion folks, please keep it going. RJ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi_Krx6C_7w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi_Krx6C_7w)
Here is a good discussion with a guy that deals with grizzlies for his job along with links to other papers with a ton of facts.
http://www.themeateater.com/2016/the-cold-hard-facts-of-bear-deterrents-bear-spray-vs-firearms/
Post by: Brushcrawler on July 23, 2017, 10:01:15 AM
Post by: hunter399 on July 23, 2017, 10:27:46 AM
Maybe the one you feel more comfortable with.
Your choice on how to protect yourself in the woods.
Here some good reading on the subject,along with a few quotes from the artical.
http://www.explorebigsky.com/why-wasnt-bear-spray-more-effective-in-todd-orrs-grizzly-attack
Everything inside 30 feet exists within what Bartlebaugh calls the “potential contact zone,” meaning you can expect bear spray to minimize the length and severity of an attack, but not prevent it.
After the initial encounter, Orr wrote that he “half hiked, half jogged down the trail” toward his truck, which was parked 3 miles away. Five to 10 minutes later, the sow was on him again.
Post by: MikeWalking on July 23, 2017, 12:15:13 PM
Weeks later another client was rushed from behind by a griz in the willows. After taking a chunk of his leg it got him face down and started eating his pack. He got his spray and just sprayed straight up. The griz disappeared.
Post by: JDHasty on July 23, 2017, 03:19:57 PM
I'm always curious to know who of you think you have the wherewithal to accurately place a killing/disabling shot or 3 into a big bear when it's pissed off and coming for you at 20+mph. Lots of talk, but when the ish hits the fan.... what's going to give you the best opportunity to slow/stop/turn that bear?? A rifle with a scope on it would be my last consideration, unless of course it was all I had. There's a reason the guides in AK real bear country and in Africa that carry rifles as defense guns don't have scopes on their rifles.
My thought on this subject exactly
Post by: j_h_nimrod on July 23, 2017, 08:17:13 PM
I have seen spray deployed on one decent black bear boar from the porch of a cabin, bear was seriously pissd off and would have eaten the perp if the deck was not so high and the door was not bolted. Bear proceeded o eat up the deck railings and put claw marks on the door. I have also seen bears hazed by cracker shells and rubber bullets, much more effective.
Post by: Labs07 on July 24, 2017, 09:00:36 AM
I have hunted in WY for Elk for about 10 years now and this is griz country and I carry two cans of spray and my buddy, who is a resident, carries two cans. Spray is effective and it takes aiming out of the picture. For me spray is the first line of defense and then a rifle or pistol. Yes you can get spray on you but I think I would rather have that then a bear clawing at me!
Post by: boneaddict on July 24, 2017, 09:22:08 AM
Having survived a bear attack because I did shoot it as it charged, I can attest to Jackelopes thought process. Id imagine 90% of the folks out there would have been a chew toy. I was close enough to being one and I didn't stutter or flinch until it was over.
Post by: wooltie on July 24, 2017, 10:49:06 AM
Bear spray is reported to be more effective than a firearm because spray is used in far more reported bear attach events. We hear of an attack, spray was used, the results are report. I don't hear many reports of an attack, a firearm used -- either hitting the animal or simply a loud boom -- and the results. So I think we can't say one is documented to be more effective than the other -- although spray has been reported to be effective.
So why not carry both LOL and let the situation dictate what you do.
If I walked upon a bear that's 30-50 yards away, I would first noise and large body motions, and draw my weapons. If the noise and commotion didn't deter the bear, and the bear charged or even freaking motioned my way I'd shoot a round in its direction. That doesn't work turn the bear away, and the bear becomes more aggressive or comes closer, then I'd empty the spray can in its face. Then comes the lead.
You gotta think that a jacked up bear charging you is different than a bear just standing there, trying to figure you if you look tasty or not.
In that Orr situation, didn't the bear just blow through the cloud of spray? Actually, I just read that article about why bear spray didn't work. To work effectively, you want to start spraying sooner rather than later assuming the bear is charging you to allow for more time for the spray to work. Lead doesn't seem to have that problem. You need placement, not time for lead to work.
Also, Orr credited his backpack with protecting his vitals. Kinda makes me laugh thinking about which backpack brands make for the greatest bear protection LOL
Question is, if a griz is coming at you and nothing is working to stop it, at what point do you hit the ground, cover your neck and pray?
Post by: Bob33 on July 24, 2017, 12:25:42 PM
I personally believe the odds of stopping a charging grizzly with a handgun are low. The sound may scare it off, but if it doesn’t you must place a bullet into the vital area of an animal charging at 30 mph within a few seconds. Doing that with a handgun isn’t something most people have the skill to do. If you don’t break the bear down or interrupt the central nervous system, you may do nothing more than make the bear more intent on harming you as his final death wish.
A shotgun or rifle yes, but I would prefer bear spray over a handgun.
Post by: 2MANY on July 24, 2017, 12:27:20 PM
Generally I side with lead versus spray. I did however chose spray over lead when weight became an issue and when my wife started going with me. She got her own spray. I figured she had a better chance with that than trying to shoot something.
Having survived a bear attack because I did shoot it as it charged, I can attest to Jackelopes thought process. Id imagine 90% of the folks out there would have been a chew toy. I was close enough to being one and I didn't stutter or flinch until it was over.
I would be interested in hearing the details of this encounter and am glad you survived.
Post by: jackelope on July 24, 2017, 12:29:24 PM
I don't own any bear spray,but maybe both if really worried.
Maybe the one you feel more comfortable with.
Your choice on how to protect yourself in the woods.
Here some good reading on the subject,along with a few quotes from the artical.
http://www.explorebigsky.com/why-wasnt-bear-spray-more-effective-in-todd-orrs-grizzly-attack
Everything inside 30 feet exists within what Bartlebaugh calls the “potential contact zone,” meaning you can expect bear spray to minimize the length and severity of an attack, but not prevent it.
After the initial encounter, Orr wrote that he “half hiked, half jogged down the trail” toward his truck, which was parked 3 miles away. Five to 10 minutes later, the sow was on him again.
He also had a gun that he lost track of during the attack.
Post by: jackelope on July 24, 2017, 12:33:04 PM
Post by: Stein on July 24, 2017, 12:34:28 PM
The other consideration that is not made in the article is that that 90% success rate of spray likely has a critical flaw in that there are a larger number of bearanoid idiots carrying spray than firearms and when these people see a bear they deploy the spray and holler while spraying it when the bear is on the other side of the meadow. Bear sees the dinkus and runs off, +1 for bear spray!
The facts and the study don't support that:
Quote
In 90% (18 of 20; G1 ¼ 14.7, P ¼ 0.001) of close-range encounters with black bears, spray stopped the
bear’s undesirable behavior. All bear-inflicted injuries (n¼3) involved brown bears and were relatively minor (i.e., no
hospitalization required).
Bear spray only goes about 30', so if the bear is in close range and sprayed, it can't be at the other side of the meadow.
I won't even comment on the assumption that "bearanoid idiots" don't carry firearms. :chuckle:
Everyone should chose what they want, but the statistics and facts from a two studies stretching over 20 years are out there, bear spray gives you the best odds at the best possible outcome. If there are conflicting studies that suggest otherwise, please link to them as I would be very interested in having all the information possible.
Post by: washingtonmuley on July 26, 2017, 08:47:40 AM
Post by: Mudman on July 26, 2017, 09:21:15 PM
Post by: Seahawk12 on July 27, 2017, 12:20:49 AM
I dont enter the woods without a firearm.
Post by: Thenewguy on July 27, 2017, 06:21:55 AM
Post by: BlackRiverTaxidermy on July 27, 2017, 07:20:14 AM
The statistics are in your favor with spray. Studies showed you have a 50/50 chance with a gun during a charge. Most people have been proven to miss during high stress/adrenaline filled moments AND even if you hit the bear a grizzly gets further enraged by pain, just like when they fight another bear. Unless you brain shoot them, which is difficult in itself due to their skull and a moving target, the bullet strike in an adrenaline filled bear can prompt more adrenaline and just anger them, like a tweaker getting tazzed by police :chuckle:.
If using the spray you have a 93 percent change of walking away unscathed, but you have to deploy the spray correctly and buy the RIGHT spray. Creating a cloud with the spray on a charge grizzly disorients them when they hit/run into it. The warden I spoke too said he had stopped numerous charges with spray. Instead of inflicting pain, prompting rage, the spray disorients the grizzly thus, most of the time stopping the charge by interrupting their primal focus. There are lots of sprays out there I later found out. The wardens, and studies, said to buy the big cans that have no less than a 50' spray length and to sweep in front of the grizzly, don't actually try and hit the running bear unless hes already within the 50' mark.
With all that said....the grizzly that came after me was starving, therefore I may have been able to stop his charge with spray but I am sure he would have found a way around the spray. Therefore....PACK BOTH. The spray is your best defense and may keep you safe for most charges of a surprised animal or sow with cubs, however if you meet the one bear that is intent on getting you to the ground then a death sentence is the only alternative and a can of spray won't do that for you. Joel-
Post by: Mudman on July 27, 2017, 07:47:55 AM
Post by: boneaddict on July 27, 2017, 07:58:54 AM
2many, its on here somewhere. Ill see what I can find
Post by: boneaddict on July 27, 2017, 08:07:50 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 27, 2017, 08:21:52 AM
Post by: Bob33 on July 27, 2017, 08:34:19 AM
I know it has been mentioned before, but one of the main issues with that spray vs gun statistic is it compared 'bear spray' against all firearms (not just agreed upon bear hammer types). So, a guy with a 9mm/.38 spl/.243 is given the same odds as a guy with a .460SW/.375HH/.45-70.Yes, although the title is "Bear Spray vs. Pistol" so that rules out rifles.
Post by: Tim in Wa. on July 28, 2017, 06:15:41 AM
Post by: tgray on July 31, 2017, 05:16:00 PM
Post by: buglebrush on August 01, 2017, 09:33:41 PM
https://www.cliffcanoe.com/bear-rules read the last bullet point on this list.This guy has a bunch of experience with bears all over N. America
One of the more common sense list I've read. Thanks for that.
Post by: Scheindogg on August 01, 2017, 10:09:07 PM
Here is a very cool video comparing the 10mm and 357 magnum testing through a raw bear skull.
He was using CRAP (for bear defense purposes) 10mm ammo and it did a helluva job, makes me feel assured when I get my glock 20 (same gun he tested with) and get some nice hard cast bullets I'll be set!!
I realie the video isn't exactly scientific and he was shooting very close range and the adrenaline would make it hard to aim and all that, but I'm just saying this is a very cool video
Worth a watch
Post by: Tbob on August 05, 2017, 10:55:55 PM
Post by: MikeWalking on September 07, 2017, 01:32:19 PM
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/how-hot-is-it-understanding-pepper-spray/ This is for the people who think mace or pepper spray is hotter than bear spray. Its complicated and involves misleading advertisements but BEAR spray is much stronger as you can read here....
Bear Spray is 8x hotter than mace. I know I'm not the only veteran out here that had to deal with CS exposure or a shack full of CS with no mask. That was nothing to the feeling of bear spray on my face.
Post by: Bob33 on September 07, 2017, 09:52:11 PM
Post by: steeleywhopper on September 07, 2017, 10:12:40 PM
Post by: MikeWalking on September 08, 2017, 03:19:55 PM
They honestly thought you used it like OFF. :chuckle:
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on September 08, 2017, 03:30:13 PM
Both, spray to slow things down, big bore for persistenceYep, belt and suspenders for me too!
Post by: KFhunter on September 09, 2017, 09:22:22 PM
Just today:
I was sitting on a knob doing a few cow calls in a cut the elk like to go up. Deep dark cedar on the north side, big open feeding area on the south side, a transition area. No elk, so I decided to bust down through the cut and check out another flat down below. When I got about half way through the thick stuff (you know the type, can't wear your hat, gotta hold the bow behind you and plow through) I had a cougar hiss me. It was about 10-15 feet away, quite loud and it wasn't a deer. It didn't bust out either, just stayed there as I busted past, or I didn't hear it sneak out. I was so bagged out and tired I didn't give a crap, out came the G20 and I didn't even pause crash crash crash It was so thick I think the cat woulda got hung up trying to get at me :chuckle:
didn't see it following me when I got out in the open :dunno: meh - decided it didn't want none.
I KNOW the G20 will work on everything, charging grizz, wolves, cats, humans and whatever else wants some. I'm no pistol rookie either.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on September 09, 2017, 09:41:18 PM
With wolves there is probably always going to be more then one and if the pack moves in and decides you are going down. Fogging one wont put a stop to the others. I am sure gun fire would be best in that situation.
Post by: MikeWalking on October 13, 2017, 01:46:15 PM
I had a couple once tell me to make sure and put plenty of it on. They it was like Deet... :yike:
Why not carry both?
Post by: trophyhunt on October 13, 2017, 02:40:48 PM
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on October 13, 2017, 02:43:25 PM
Post by: WapitiChaser on October 13, 2017, 07:45:53 PM
If the rifle or muzzle blast doesn't do it, I plan to offer my left forearm, up under the Bears chin with the pistol and unload! Don't forget to save the last one for you just in case!
Post by: Skillet on October 13, 2017, 08:46:54 PM
So, both.