Post by: rosscrazyelk on September 08, 2017, 11:16:53 AM
Post by: Elkcollector82 on September 08, 2017, 11:18:52 AM
Post by: jackelope on September 08, 2017, 11:22:22 AM
Link or anything to support this?
He pretty much lives in the unit.
:dunno:
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on September 08, 2017, 11:22:58 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 08, 2017, 11:23:11 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 08, 2017, 11:24:11 AM
Post by: Bob33 on September 08, 2017, 11:26:37 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 08, 2017, 11:29:14 AM
Post by: jackelope on September 08, 2017, 11:31:20 AM
Post by: Bob33 on September 08, 2017, 11:40:57 AM
There's nothing on WDFW's website about the GMU being closed. :dunno:
Post by: trophyhunt on September 08, 2017, 12:22:49 PM
Post by: Bob33 on September 08, 2017, 12:26:28 PM
Post by: jackelope on September 08, 2017, 01:48:44 PM
Wow. That's the first time I can recall an entire GMU being closed.
Could it be a matter of wording? Maybe the closure encompasses the GMU? They were emailing peaches permit holders yesterday. A phone call would be not their normal means of communication based on the emails yesterday.
:dunno:
Post by: jackelope on September 08, 2017, 01:49:10 PM
A significant portion of the GMU is private.
There's nothing on WDFW's website about the GMU being closed. :dunno:
The Hancock portion is closed for sure.
Post by: Stein on September 08, 2017, 02:03:35 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on September 08, 2017, 02:11:36 PM
I can't believe they could legally close an entire GMU, especially one with private land. I can believe they would close public areas like national forests, and that forest companies could close their lands. :dunno:
The question is, are they (WDFW) saying the GMU is closed to access or closed to hunting?
Clearly they cannot dictate who can be on someone else's property, but pretty sure they can close an area to hunting....
Post by: Bob33 on September 08, 2017, 02:11:59 PM
My guess is that it is linguistics, the vast majority, if not all, public access is closed so they are giving all the points back rather than calling everyone and seeing where they were planning on hunting or letting guys head over there without checking and getting pissed.:tup:
Post by: Milkman on September 08, 2017, 04:20:00 PM
Post by: jackelope on September 08, 2017, 04:22:19 PM
W.R. / Enamclaw Hancock has been closed since 7/13. They sent out an email... This isn't anything new to permit holders.
Technically it closed 7/20 according to their website.
Post by: Milkman on September 08, 2017, 04:25:41 PM
Technically it closed 7/20 according to their website.
[/quote]
You are correct. My email was dated 7/13. They gave us a week notice. How nice :rolleyes:
Post by: CarbonHunter on September 08, 2017, 05:37:19 PM
Post by: G.R.K on September 08, 2017, 07:20:30 PM
Post by: CarbonHunter on September 08, 2017, 07:41:16 PM
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd558215.pdfYou know you can access the white river unit from the wilkeson side right? And there's trails that cross the Clearwater wilderness and will drop you into the area behind the closure without crossing Hancock land, right?
Post by: Bob33 on September 08, 2017, 07:59:41 PM
Post by: CarbonHunter on September 08, 2017, 08:24:55 PM
The fact is there is not one single unit in this state that is 100% inaccessible, yes some are mostly inaccessible but they can still be hunted and they still have elk.
Post by: Stein on September 08, 2017, 08:27:10 PM
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Post by: CarbonHunter on September 08, 2017, 08:41:36 PM
Doesn't matter, if they re-enter the draw your odds don't go down unless you carry three or four significant digits right of the decimal.
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You lost me stein. The minimum is one digit to the left of the decimal as I understand the system.
If 50 people turn their permits back in and they average 10 points a piece, that's 5,000 applications back in the pool next year as opposed to 50 applications if they kept their permits. You don't feel that reduces your odds next year?
Post by: Elkcollector82 on September 09, 2017, 06:36:31 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 09, 2017, 08:17:43 AM
Post by: Bullkllr on September 09, 2017, 08:50:32 AM
Seems to me anyone with ten or more points. Doesn't have any better chance then the guy with 4. :dunno: see and hear about guys with 19 points not drawing but a guy with 5 does. Luck of the draw I guess. :chuckle:
Individual odds with 10 are better; there are just more guys with 4 putting in. As stated, luck rules.
Post by: Stein on September 09, 2017, 09:22:46 AM
Doesn't matter, if they re-enter the draw your odds don't go down unless you carry three or four significant digits right of the decimal.
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You lost me stein. The minimum is one digit to the left of the decimal as I understand the system.
If 50 people turn their permits back in and they average 10 points a piece, that's 5,000 applications back in the pool next year as opposed to 50 applications if they kept their permits. You don't feel that reduces your odds next year?
The way the math works is that the draw odds are so low in the best quality hunts that having another guy or ten in the draw doesn't noticeably change your odds. If you have a 3% chance or a 3.004% chance, you have the same odds really.
The way I see it is that if you draw a tag, you should have a chance to hunt it. If 50% of the unit burns up, especially if it is the 50% that 90% were going to hunt then it really is a different deal and not fair to the guy who drew with 19 points. I applaud WDFW getting in front of it and reinstating the points.
That said, I'm keeping my tag.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on September 09, 2017, 10:42:53 AM
Post by: Crunchy on September 09, 2017, 10:46:11 AM
Post by: Elkcollector82 on September 09, 2017, 10:53:03 AM
Doesn't matter, if they re-enter the draw your odds don't go down unless you carry three or four significant digits right of the decimal.
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You lost me stein. The minimum is one digit to the left of the decimal as I understand the system.
If 50 people turn their permits back in and they average 10 points a piece, that's 5,000 applications back in the pool next year as opposed to 50 applications if they kept their permits. You don't feel that reduces your odds next year?
The way the math works is that the draw odds are so low in the best quality hunts that having another guy or ten in the draw doesn't noticeably change your odds. If you have a 3% chance or a 3.004% chance, you have the same odds really.
The way I see it is that if you draw a tag, you should have a chance to hunt it. If 50% of the unit burns up, especially if it is the 50% that 90% were going to hunt then it really is a different deal and not fair to the guy who drew with 19 points. I applaud WDFW getting in front of it and reinstating the points.
That said, I'm keeping my tag.
:tup: hope it all works out and you bag a monster. Make the best of it.
Post by: Bob33 on September 09, 2017, 10:56:31 AM
Good luck. The lack of other hunters may give you an extra edge. :tup:Doesn't matter, if they re-enter the draw your odds don't go down unless you carry three or four significant digits right of the decimal.
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You lost me stein. The minimum is one digit to the left of the decimal as I understand the system.
If 50 people turn their permits back in and they average 10 points a piece, that's 5,000 applications back in the pool next year as opposed to 50 applications if they kept their permits. You don't feel that reduces your odds next year?
The way the math works is that the draw odds are so low in the best quality hunts that having another guy or ten in the draw doesn't noticeably change your odds. If you have a 3% chance or a 3.004% chance, you have the same odds really.
The way I see it is that if you draw a tag, you should have a chance to hunt it. If 50% of the unit burns up, especially if it is the 50% that 90% were going to hunt then it really is a different deal and not fair to the guy who drew with 19 points. I applaud WDFW getting in front of it and reinstating the points.
That said, I'm keeping my tag.
Post by: Blade on September 09, 2017, 03:35:29 PM
Post by: Greg Mullins on September 09, 2017, 05:12:43 PM
Post by: Elkcollector82 on September 09, 2017, 05:29:01 PM
I drew an archery bull tag. I was called and told the GMU was closed. I was told I could keep my tag in the event the UNIT reopened or have it postmarked by September 11 to get my points back. With the compiled points of 17 with my hunting partner I took my points back in the event the unit doesn't open before September 21 when the permit is over and I don't get to go elk hunting and I go back to zero points Really sucks but doesn't sting so bad knowing next year we're going in with 18. It's just like seeing not selected again
Well hopefully next year you can strike again and come out with a monster. Sorry bout all the work and not being able to put it to test.
Post by: rosscrazyelk on September 10, 2017, 06:54:06 PM
Post by: CarbonHunter on September 10, 2017, 07:40:26 PM
I drew an archery bull tag. I was called and told the GMU was closed. I was told I could keep my tag in the event the UNIT reopened or have it postmarked by September 11 to get my points back. With the compiled points of 17 with my hunting partner I took my points back in the event the unit doesn't open before September 21 when the permit is over and I don't get to go elk hunting and I go back to zero points Really sucks but doesn't sting so bad knowing next year we're going in with 18. It's just like seeing not selected again
Did your email say that you get a point for this year? Technically you drew this year so you should get a point even though you got your points back. Should be the same as this year with 17 points. The WAC says you only get a point if you don't draw.
Post by: highrisk on September 11, 2017, 03:13:53 PM
Post by: Stein on September 11, 2017, 04:00:05 PM
As of now GMU 346 Little Naches is closed.
Where did you see that?
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Post by: Bald378 on September 11, 2017, 04:00:15 PM
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Post by: trophyhunt on September 11, 2017, 04:28:19 PM
As of now GMU 346 Little Naches is closed.A guy in our camp has that archery tag, I sure hope the entire unit isn't closed. He's been able to hit the eastside of the 1900 since the start.
Post by: trophyhunt on September 11, 2017, 05:25:36 PM
As of now GMU 346 Little Naches is closed.checked w the guys hunting up there, they said this is not true :dunno:
Post by: jackelope on September 11, 2017, 05:59:47 PM
As of now GMU 346 Little Naches is closed.
They can't close an entire GMU unless, I suppose, the whole entire GMU is public land. You can't close access to someone else's private land. Parts of it may be closed, but unless the entire GMU is public land, they can't close the whole thing.
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on September 11, 2017, 06:04:17 PM
As of now GMU 346 Little Naches is closed.
They can't close an entire GMU unless, I suppose, the whole entire GMU is public land. You can't close access to someone else's private land. Parts of it may be closed, but unless the entire GMU is public land, they can't close the whole thing.
WDFW could do an emergency closure and close down hunting in the gmu, much like they do with rivers and fishing...
Post by: jackelope on September 11, 2017, 06:05:23 PM
As of now GMU 346 Little Naches is closed.
They can't close an entire GMU unless, I suppose, the whole entire GMU is public land. You can't close access to someone else's private land. Parts of it may be closed, but unless the entire GMU is public land, they can't close the whole thing.
WDFW could do an emergency closure and close down hunting in the gmu, much like they do with rivers and fishing...
Have you seen that done before?
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on September 11, 2017, 06:15:44 PM
Regardless, it doesn't take away the fact that they have the authority to open or close an area, especially in emergent situations like high fire danger or actual fires. Just seems like commonsense to me, they can open or close a fishery outside of posted seasons, why not the same with hunting??
Not stating that is what is happening as I don't know, I am just saying it may be a possibility. Don't believe WDFW has ever offered to take back permits and refund points across the board either, but they are now...
Post by: jackelope on September 11, 2017, 06:31:34 PM
I believe there was an instance in the mid-1970's they delayed opening day of deer in October for a week or so due to extreme fire danger, but was so long ago, I can't remember what year exactly.
Regardless, it doesn't take away the fact that they have the authority to open or close an area, especially in emergent situations like high fire danger or actual fires. Just seems like commonsense to me, they can open or close a fishery outside of posted seasons, why not the same with hunting??
Not stating that is what is happening as I don't know, I am just saying it may be a possibility. Don't believe WDFW has ever offered to take back permits and refund points across the board either, but they are now...
@Bob33 Any thoughts on this?
What do you mean by refunding points across the board?
Points were refunded in the Wenaha and Tucannon a couple years ago for the archery guys due to the big fire down in that country too. It was optional. A couple guys I know of kept their permits and killed big bulls.
I'm not trying to argue...legitimate questions that Bob and I were talking about the other day.
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on September 11, 2017, 07:05:20 PM
I believe there was an instance in the mid-1970's they delayed opening day of deer in October for a week or so due to extreme fire danger, but was so long ago, I can't remember what year exactly.
Regardless, it doesn't take away the fact that they have the authority to open or close an area, especially in emergent situations like high fire danger or actual fires. Just seems like commonsense to me, they can open or close a fishery outside of posted seasons, why not the same with hunting??
Not stating that is what is happening as I don't know, I am just saying it may be a possibility. Don't believe WDFW has ever offered to take back permits and refund points across the board either, but they are now...
@Bob33 Any thoughts on this?
What do you mean by refunding points across the board?
Points were refunded in the Wenaha and Tucannon a couple years ago for the archery guys due to the big fire down in that country too. It was optional. A couple guys I know of kept their permits and killed big bulls.
I'm not trying to argue...legitimate questions that Bob and I were talking about the other day.
Again, that is/was something that did not effect me so I have/had no knowledge.
Again, I am not saying that is what is happening now. I am just putting out a possible reason/answer to those that are saying "they" have closed such and such gmu and others are saying "they" can't close an entire gmu because of any private property inside it.
Again, I am suggesting that "they" are not closing access, but if "they" are infact shutting an entire gmu down, it may be hunting that is being shutdown, not across the board access.
To avoid any further nit-picking on my use of "across the board," let me try to clarify. I meant across the board to all those permit holders in the fire affected gmu's that have been the topic of discussion.
I suppose I could have listed each gmu that has been discussed, followed by a cavaet that those particular permit holders were the ones geting points refunded if they chose instead of apparently muddying up the waters by saying "across the board" but I didn't realize it was going to be such a difficult concept to accept, and I thought it would be understood or implied that it was in regards to the unit(s) being discussed.
Sorry if I made things more difficult for some to understand what I was trying to say. Just thought I was offering an alternative answer to the question about the entire gmu being closed and how "they" might be able to do it.
It is something done with fisheries on a regular basis, just seems like it could apply here as well, don't understand why that is such a hard concept to grasp.
Hopefully someone with inside knowledge of WDFW will chime in and then maybe we will all know the real answer as to what is happening...
Post by: Bob33 on September 11, 2017, 07:21:00 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on September 11, 2017, 07:22:38 PM
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=220-111-010
http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.12.150
One more time, not saying this has or is happening.
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on September 11, 2017, 07:23:14 PM
There is nothing on the WDFW website indicating entire GMUs are closes to hunting. I don't believe they have closed entire GMUs or there were would be public information available.
:yeah:
Post by: Bob33 on September 11, 2017, 07:24:31 PM
This may clear-up the question of whether WDFW can do a closure under emergency rule, or at least this looks like it does...again, not talking about closing an area they do not own to access, but authorizing it being closed to the act of hunting.If If want to hunt coyote in this GMU how would I know it is closed to hunting? On what authority could I be charged?
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=220-111-010
http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.12.150
Post by: bobcat on September 11, 2017, 07:53:18 PM
Post by: hollymaster on September 11, 2017, 08:09:36 PM
Post by: highrisk on September 11, 2017, 08:24:51 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on September 11, 2017, 09:01:54 PM
Just no access into most of the unit, unless your not afraid of custom pinstripes. :chuckle:the waitress at gold creek told us that hunters were caught in the closed area of the natches unit elk hunting, they had a camp fire going. That's crazy
Post by: Stein on September 11, 2017, 09:17:01 PM
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Post by: hollymaster on September 11, 2017, 10:26:09 PM
Any actual facts? Call me old fashioned I guess.Temporary gates put up with signs saying roads closed. Usfs website shows what forest service roads are closed.
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Post by: Blacktail Sniper on September 11, 2017, 10:34:44 PM
This may clear-up the question of whether WDFW can do a closure under emergency rule, or at least this looks like it does...again, not talking about closing an area they do not own to access, but authorizing it being closed to the act of hunting.If If want to hunt coyote in this GMU how would I know it is closed to hunting? On what authority could I be charged?
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=220-111-010
http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.12.150
I would guess the same way that they are letting people know about returning permits, etc., but once again, I am sorry that I have made this such a hot issue and a target for nit-picking each and every minute and some what pointless detail beyond what has been said time and time again...no where was it stated hunting was, had or is going to be shut down, today, yesterday or tomorrow.
But to summarize:
1. Some people were saying a gmu was closed.
2. Some people were questioning how a gmu could be closed. Focusing or fixatating on access being what was closed and questioning how that could be if there were parcels of private property whitin the boundary.
3. An additional possible option, explanation, idea, theory...pick whatever word works, as to how a gmu could be closed was offered, nothing more, nothing less.
I appologize for even trying to add to the discussion, as it clearly turned into a point of contention, seemingly like I was stating as fact that is what has happened/is happening.
Maybe I used too many words, clearly I used some of the wrong words in previous posts which resulted in way more focus on those particular line items and the result it seems was the initial intent was lost, ignored or it was just used as an excuse to nit-pick at something, anything...
This is one of the biggest downsides to conversations using typed responses vs actual, live, verbal conversations. Not every one can read and interrupt writings the exact same way as others, and this is the type of fallout that results.
Good luck to those who choose to keep their permits, I hope that it works in your favor and you are successful, to the ones turning in their permits, sorry to see you have to make a tough call like that and I hope you do just as well or even better this season and get a chance in next years draw to recapture what you had to give up this year.
Post by: trophyhunt on September 12, 2017, 06:18:38 AM
Post by: jackelope on September 12, 2017, 09:33:51 AM
This may clear-up the question of whether WDFW can do a closure under emergency rule, or at least this looks like it does...again, not talking about closing an area they do not own to access, but authorizing it being closed to the act of hunting.If If want to hunt coyote in this GMU how would I know it is closed to hunting? On what authority could I be charged?
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=220-111-010
http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.12.150
I would guess the same way that they are letting people know about returning permits, etc., but once again, I am sorry that I have made this such a hot issue and a target for nit-picking each and every minute and some what pointless detail beyond what has been said time and time again...no where was it stated hunting was, had or is going to be shut down, today, yesterday or tomorrow.
But to summarize:
1. Some people were saying a gmu was closed.
2. Some people were questioning how a gmu could be closed. Focusing or fixatating on access being what was closed and questioning how that could be if there were parcels of private property whitin the boundary.
3. An additional possible option, explanation, idea, theory...pick whatever word works, as to how a gmu could be closed was offered, nothing more, nothing less.
I appologize for even trying to add to the discussion, as it clearly turned into a point of contention, seemingly like I was stating as fact that is what has happened/is happening.
Maybe I used too many words, clearly I used some of the wrong words in previous posts which resulted in way more focus on those particular line items and the result it seems was the initial intent was lost, ignored or it was just used as an excuse to nit-pick at something, anything...
This is one of the biggest downsides to conversations using typed responses vs actual, live, verbal conversations. Not every one can read and interrupt writings the exact same way as others, and this is the type of fallout that results.
Good luck to those who choose to keep their permits, I hope that it works in your favor and you are successful, to the ones turning in their permits, sorry to see you have to make a tough call like that and I hope you do just as well or even better this season and get a chance in next years draw to recapture what you had to give up this year.
I guess you missed the part where I said I was not trying to argue....just asking legit questions trying to clarify what you were saying.
Sorry about that.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on September 12, 2017, 11:50:12 AM
Post by: Bronson on September 12, 2017, 01:12:33 PM
Landowner sets the rules and opens/closes land as they see fit. At that point access points would be marked with signage and/or be temporarily barricaded. People should be checking on landowner restrictions (private timber land, NF land, State Land, etc) every bit as much as they should be checking on WDFW restrictions. Generally access is closed by landowner, not hunting closed by WDFW. :twocents:
Post by: rosscrazyelk on September 13, 2017, 09:10:49 PM
Post by: Bob33 on September 13, 2017, 09:26:38 PM