Post by: pianoman9701 on October 13, 2017, 09:15:04 AM
to transport Atlantic salmon eggs from Iceland
OLYMPIA – The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) has authorized Cooke Aquaculture to transport 1.8 million Atlantic salmon eggs from its facility in Iceland to the company's land-based hatchery in Rochester, Wash.
WDFW issued the transfer permit late Tuesday, Oct. 10, after ensuring Cooke met all the fish health standards required under state law to import Atlantic salmon eggs.
Cooke operates net pens at eight locations in Puget Sound, including at Cypress Island, where one pen collapsed on Aug. 19 and released tens of thousands of Atlantic salmon into Puget Sound and nearby waters.
The incident at Cypress Island, near the San Juan Islands, remains under investigation. About half of the 305,000 fish from the collapsed pen are thought to have escaped.
After the net pen collapse in August, Gov. Jay Inslee directed that no permits be issued for new aquaculture net pens while the incident was being investigated. However, WDFW does not have the authority under current regulations to deny Cooke's request to import healthy Atlantic salmon eggs, which will mature at the hatchery into juvenile fish and eventually be used in net pen operations.
Cooke applied in mid-September for permission to move about 1.8 million Atlantic salmon eggs from its hatchery in Vogar, Iceland, to the company's Scatter Creek hatchery in Rochester. The move is expected to take place later this week.
Post by: fish vacuum on October 14, 2017, 04:13:52 PM
However, WDFW does not have the authority under current regulations to deny Cooke's request to import healthy Atlantic salmon eggsWhat good is a permit if the issuing agency can't deny it? Cooke must have some good friends in Olympia.
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Post by: pianoman9701 on October 15, 2017, 02:09:16 PM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on October 15, 2017, 03:08:00 PM
However, WDFW does not have the authority under current regulations to deny Cooke's request to import healthy Atlantic salmon eggsWhat good is a permit if the issuing agency can't deny it? Cooke must have some good friends in Olympia.
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That should say "However, WDFW does not have the authority under current regulations to deny Cooke's request to import healthy Atlantic salmon eggs without cause and support by more than fake news storyies". WDFW has the ability to deny transfers based on founded fish health concerns and sound scientific information. At this point no one has made up the data that supports not importing these eggs.
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 15, 2017, 04:00:52 PM
Post by: fish vacuum on October 15, 2017, 04:25:40 PM
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Post by: huntnphool on October 15, 2017, 05:35:10 PM
Post by: Skillet on October 15, 2017, 07:25:21 PM
The real impact we should all be concerned about is the sea lice problem they cause for our wild fish. These farms are breeding grounds for sea lice, and the outmigrating smolts pick up these lice as they pass by the farms on their way out to sea. Normally there is no large concentration of lice threatening the smolts during their outmigration, but these farms keep a massive amount ready to pounce at all times.
An adult salmon can handle several dozen lice, no problem. But to a 4" smolt, picking up just a few of them that early is effectively a death sentence. I think of it as similar the tick problem with moose.
:twocents:
Post by: j_h_nimrod on October 15, 2017, 07:37:57 PM
What data? A full review of the company's aquaculture practices and pen integrity should be performed before further damage is done to our wild fish stocks.
Review is in progress. You are sounding like a liberal environmentalist, "we have no proof to the contrary, but we are going to make you stop until you prove we are wrong!"
Billions of Atlantics have been reared on this coast and many millions have escaped over the years. There has never been more than unfounded conjecture that they compete with or cause harm to any stocks on this coast and ,with a few isolated and short lived exceptions, have not been known to reproduce in the wild over here. Contrary to popular environmentalist propaganda, a few escapees are not going to create a viable self supporting population that will out compete native species and take over our waters.
Post by: j_h_nimrod on October 15, 2017, 08:10:53 PM
Open water salmon farms are effectively ultra-concentrated feed lots. Aside from the facts that they seriously depress the price I get for my wild Alaskan fish, the "dead zones" they create on the bottoms under the areas surrounding the pens, the growing demand for harvesting lower-on-the-food-chain fish to press into pellets to feed them (which has led to the over-harvesting of wild salmon's food supply), the chemicals and antibiotics they put in the feed to keep them alive, etc., etc -
The real impact we should all be concerned about is the sea lice problem they cause for our wild fish. These farms are breeding grounds for sea lice, and the outmigrating smolts pick up these lice as they pass by the farms on their way out to sea. Normally there is no large concentration of lice threatening the smolts during their outmigration, but these farms keep a massive amount ready to pounce at all times.
An adult salmon can handle several dozen lice, no problem. But to a 4" smolt, picking up just a few of them that early is effectively a death sentence. I think of it as similar the tick problem with moose.
:twocents:
Sea lice are a problem that is endemic to wild fish and is transmitted to the penned fish. There have been a few isolated instances where penned salmon have been suspected of transmitting sea lice to emigrating smolts. How many farms are in SE AK or Alaska in general?? Answer is 0. How many of your troll caught adults in terminal harvest areas have lice? Probably quite a few.
The "dead zones" are another non-issue for the most part. In the US there is extensive EPA testing to make sure these "zones" are not being created, Canada has much the same testing. There is a reason most adult pen complexes are in areas of high current and flow. The "dead zones" you refer to are possible, but would have as many ill effects for the penned fish as for the other denizens of the area. Not sure if you dive, but take a swim in the back of Katlian, Nakwasina, Readout, or Fish Bay to see what a "dead zone" is. There is nothing but sea cucumber, a few clam holes, anemones, or an occasional crab to be seen.
Of more concern is the sourcing of marine forage fish for the feed, that is a worldwide issue that only a small portion is for feeding penned salmon. Anchovies, herring, and similar fish have been heavily harvested for longer than pen aquaculture has been around and the worlds demand for marine based proteins and oils continues to grow with the increasing population, especially in Asian countries. Blaming salmon aquaculture for the continued depletion of forage fish populations is like saying because I cut down a tree in the forest, I am to blame for the worldwide deforestation.
Post by: Thenewguy on October 15, 2017, 08:17:39 PM
Open water salmon farms are effectively ultra-concentrated feed lots. Aside from the facts that they seriously depress the price I get for my wild Alaskan fish, the "dead zones" they create on the bottoms under the areas surrounding the pens, the growing demand for harvesting lower-on-the-food-chain fish to press into pellets to feed them (which has led to the over-harvesting of wild salmon's food supply), the chemicals and antibiotics they put in the feed to keep them alive, etc., etc -
The real impact we should all be concerned about is the sea lice problem they cause for our wild fish. These farms are breeding grounds for sea lice, and the outmigrating smolts pick up these lice as they pass by the farms on their way out to sea. Normally there is no large concentration of lice threatening the smolts during their outmigration, but these farms keep a massive amount ready to pounce at all times.
An adult salmon can handle several dozen lice, no problem. But to a 4" smolt, picking up just a few of them that early is effectively a death sentence. I think of it as similar the tick problem with moose.
:twocents:
Sea lice are a problem that is endemic to wild fish and is transmitted to the penned fish. There have been a few isolated instances where penned salmon have been suspected of transmitting sea lice to emigrating smolts. How many farms are in SE AK or Alaska in general?? Answer is 0. How many of your troll caught adults in terminal harvest areas have lice? Probably quite a few.
The "dead zones" are another non-issue for the most part. In the US there is extensive EPA testing to make sure these "zones" are not being created, Canada has much the same testing. There is a reason most adult pen complexes are in areas of high current and flow. The "dead zones" you refer to are possible, but would have as many ill effects for the penned fish as for the other denizens of the area. Not sure if you dive, but take a swim in the back of Katlian, Nakwasina, Readout, or Fish Bay to see what a "dead zone" is. There is nothing but sea cucumber, a few clam holes, anemones, or an occasional crab to be seen.
Of more concern is the sourcing of marine forage fish for the feed, that is a worldwide issue that only a small portion is for feeding penned salmon. Anchovies, herring, and similar fish have been heavily harvested for longer than pen aquaculture has been around and the worlds demand for marine based proteins and oils continues to grow with the increasing population, especially in Asian countries. Blaming salmon aquaculture for the continued depletion of forage fish populations is like saying because I cut down a tree in the forest, I am to blame for the worldwide deforestation.
What about the chemicals?
Post by: j_h_nimrod on October 15, 2017, 08:54:03 PM
Post by: Skillet on October 15, 2017, 09:30:53 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 15, 2017, 09:39:46 PM
Open water salmon farms are effectively ultra-concentrated feed lots. Aside from the facts that they seriously depress the price I get for my wild Alaskan fish, the "dead zones" they create on the bottoms under the areas surrounding the pens, the growing demand for harvesting lower-on-the-food-chain fish to press into pellets to feed them (which has led to the over-harvesting of wild salmon's food supply), the chemicals and antibiotics they put in the feed to keep them alive, etc., etc -
The real impact we should all be concerned about is the sea lice problem they cause for our wild fish. These farms are breeding grounds for sea lice, and the outmigrating smolts pick up these lice as they pass by the farms on their way out to sea. Normally there is no large concentration of lice threatening the smolts during their outmigration, but these farms keep a massive amount ready to pounce at all times.
An adult salmon can handle several dozen lice, no problem. But to a 4" smolt, picking up just a few of them that early is effectively a death sentence. I think of it as similar the tick problem with moose.
:twocents:
Can you post up some links to back this info up?
Post by: Skillet on October 15, 2017, 09:57:55 PM
I think the major point that Pianoman was trying to make was that in the article WDFW is being presented only as a rubber-stamp to aquaculture. It is odd that WDFW couldn't deny the permit to an aquaculture business to import live eggs from halfway around the world, yet have denied my ability to buy a bag of live leeches from Wisconsin to fish walleye with.
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 16, 2017, 06:05:07 AM
What data? A full review of the company's aquaculture practices and pen integrity should be performed before further damage is done to our wild fish stocks.
Review is in progress. You are sounding like a liberal environmentalist, "we have no proof to the contrary, but we are going to make you stop until you prove we are wrong!"
Billions of Atlantics have been reared on this coast and many millions have escaped over the years. There has never been more than unfounded conjecture that they compete with or cause harm to any stocks on this coast and ,with a few isolated and short lived exceptions, have not been known to reproduce in the wild over here. Contrary to popular environmentalist propaganda, a few escapees are not going to create a viable self supporting population that will out compete native species and take over our waters.
Do you label everyone with whom you disagree as a liberal? Seems a bit ignorant but fine. The very same fish led to the utter annihilation of the wild Atlantic salmon populations when Norway instituted fish farming. Sea lice, competition for feed/prey, introduction of non-indigenous foods and chemicals/hormones all led to the collapse of the wild Atlantic salmon population. The evidence is there and to me, it seems like too big a risk to take on areas that contain some of the last wild salmon populations in the world. The fact that they have known problems with pen integrity should at the very least indicate the necessity of a review before increased farming is allowed.
Post by: fish vacuum on October 16, 2017, 12:21:47 PM
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Post by: j_h_nimrod on October 16, 2017, 11:10:59 PM
Well nimrod, you clearly are concerned about this issue, and have an opinion that differs from mine. I can respect that. Before I spend time addressing your arguments, let me be clear that I am open about my motivations as a commercial troller... so what is your dog in this farmed fish fight? :dunno:
Up until 5 years ago commercial fishermen paid my salary. I lived in Sitka for 16 years and worked for NSRAA and SSRAA during 14 of those years. I did some commercial fishing and worked closely with trollers and seiner. Coming from that background I am fundamentally opposed to fish farms, but, at the same time, I don't like to see maligned an honest profession and a company no worse than any other farm or ranch in the US. My original concern stems back to the first post regarding the sensationalized news article full of bent truth, half-truth, and omissions then the people jumping on the band wagon crucifying Cooke and the inability of the state to deny a permit without due process. I am fairly well versed in permits and I hate them and the often nonsensical, convoluted, and ass backward means of obtaining them, but I would be pissed to jump through all the hoops only to have the permit pulled for an emotional response to an isolated incident. Think I594, an initiative voted in by an ill informed, emotional group of people with no idea what a poorly written and useless law they are passing.
Yes, it is all my opinion and contrary to many, but every time I hear what a disaster the escape was, how poor of a company Cooke is (they may be but one isolated incident does not support that and I have seen no other supporting reports to their poor quality), how Cooke singlehandedly is responsible for any future declines in "wild" stocks, how Atlantic salmon are going to take over all our rivers, etc. It is a subject I know something about and have a forum to disagree on.
Do you label everyone with whom you disagree as a liberal? Seems a bit ignorant but fine. The very same fish led to the utter annihilation of the wild Atlantic salmon populations when Norway instituted fish farming. Sea lice, competition for feed/prey, introduction of non-indigenous foods and chemicals/hormones all led to the collapse of the wild Atlantic salmon population. The evidence is there and to me, it seems like too big a risk to take on areas that contain some of the last wild salmon populations in the world. The fact that they have known problems with pen integrity should at the very least indicate the necessity of a review before increased farming is allowed.
I do not and know better than to label you a liberal, but you are sounding like a liberal environmentalist. You are using emotional reasoning for some of your opinions and this is that is the way environmental movement does every time they show a wolf bitch licking and frolicking with her pups and then ask for money to save the wolves from______.
Over fishing and habitat degradation are the main reasons Atlantics are all but extirpated in most of their historic range. Farming on a large scale with having many of the issues you purport wiped out the wild Atlantics came along well after the stocks were already in poor shape. Atlantics have had well over 100 years more time to be depleted and wiped out then our native salmon stocks, interaction with farmed salmon is relitively new and stocks were already in poor condition before farms ever became an issue.
With Cooke specifically, the state has performed reviews, engineering assessments, and tried any way currently in their arsenal including special EPA audits and testing to reject permits based on water quality. Granted it was a large escape, but this is not known problems, it is one problem. They are not necessarily looking to increase production with the 1.8 million eggs, from what I have read the broken pen complex is only a small part of their total production. These companies typically have very tight and professional operations ran like any other big business. Companies like this are not in business to lose at least $500,000 in investment plus the cost in infrastructure damage. It is not an evil, insidious business trying to ruin all remaining salmon stocks in Puget Sound and surrounding areas by purposely (through poor maintenance) destroying their pens and releasing thousands of fish just before some of their investment would finally be recouped.
My :twocents: take it or leave it, I will read and consider dissenting opinions and not automatically label a person a liberal, but don't bring emotional "facts" or fake news to try and sway me. I will do my best to offer my argument and if I don't sway you then so be it. We each have our own opinion and the more that are out there, the more diverse ideas we share.
Post by: huntnphool on October 17, 2017, 09:32:38 AM
(http://)Well nimrod, you clearly are concerned about this issue, and have an opinion that differs from mine. I can respect that. Before I spend time addressing your arguments, let me be clear that I am open about my motivations as a commercial troller... so what is your dog in this farmed fish fight? :dunno:
Up until 5 years ago commercial fishermen paid my salary. I lived in Sitka for 16 years and worked for NSRAA and SSRAA during 14 of those years. I did some commercial fishing and worked closely with trollers and seiner. Coming from that background I am fundamentally opposed to fish farms, but, at the same time, I don't like to see maligned an honest profession and a company no worse than any other farm or ranch in the US. My original concern stems back to the first post regarding the sensationalized news article full of bent truth, half-truth, and omissions then the people jumping on the band wagon crucifying Cooke and the inability of the state to deny a permit without due process. I am fairly well versed in permits and I hate them and the often nonsensical, convoluted, and ass backward means of obtaining them, but I would be pissed to jump through all the hoops only to have the permit pulled for an emotional response to an isolated incident. Think I594, an initiative voted in by an ill informed, emotional group of people with no idea what a poorly written and useless law they are passing.
Yes, it is all my opinion and contrary to many, but every time I hear what a disaster the escape was, how poor of a company Cooke is (they may be but one isolated incident does not support that and I have seen no other supporting reports to their poor quality), how Cooke singlehandedly is responsible for any future declines in "wild" stocks, how Atlantic salmon are going to take over all our rivers, etc. It is a subject I know something about and have a forum to disagree on.
Do you label everyone with whom you disagree as a liberal? Seems a bit ignorant but fine. The very same fish led to the utter annihilation of the wild Atlantic salmon populations when Norway instituted fish farming. Sea lice, competition for feed/prey, introduction of non-indigenous foods and chemicals/hormones all led to the collapse of the wild Atlantic salmon population. The evidence is there and to me, it seems like too big a risk to take on areas that contain some of the last wild salmon populations in the world. The fact that they have known problems with pen integrity should at the very least indicate the necessity of a review before increased farming is allowed.
I do not and know better than to label you a liberal, but you are sounding like a liberal environmentalist. You are using emotional reasoning for some of your opinions and this is that is the way environmental movement does every time they show a wolf bitch licking and frolicking with her pups and then ask for money to save the wolves from______.
Over fishing and habitat degradation are the main reasons Atlantics are all but extirpated in most of their historic range. Farming on a large scale with having many of the issues you purport wiped out the wild Atlantics came along well after the stocks were already in poor shape. Atlantics have had well over 100 years more time to be depleted and wiped out then our native salmon stocks, interaction with farmed salmon is relitively new and stocks were already in poor condition before farms ever became an issue.
With Cooke specifically, the state has performed reviews, engineering assessments, and tried any way currently in their arsenal including special EPA audits and testing to reject permits based on water quality. Granted it was a large escape, but this is not known problems, it is one problem. They are not necessarily looking to increase production with the 1.8 million eggs, from what I have read the broken pen complex is only a small part of their total production. These companies typically have very tight and professional operations ran like any other big business. Companies like this are not in business to lose at least $500,000 in investment plus the cost in infrastructure damage. It is not an evil, insidious business trying to ruin all remaining salmon stocks in Puget Sound and surrounding areas by purposely (through poor maintenance) destroying their pens and releasing thousands of fish just before some of their investment would finally be recouped.
My :twocents: take it or leave it, I will read and consider dissenting opinions and not automatically label a person a liberal, but don't bring emotional "facts" or fake news to try and sway me. I will do my best to offer my argument and if I don't sway you then so be it. We each have our own opinion and the more that are out there, the more diverse ideas we share.
Good stuff, thanks for the info. :tup:
Post by: TheHunt on October 18, 2017, 08:03:30 AM
Post by: Stein on October 27, 2017, 04:21:16 PM
That being the case, the introduction of Atlantic salmon to the waters could actually do very little to influence wild native species.
Famous last words, what could go wrong if we dump this non-native species here?
Post by: huntnphool on October 27, 2017, 07:31:56 PM
That being the case, the introduction of Atlantic salmon to the waters could actually do very little to influence wild native species.
Famous last words, what could go wrong if we dump this non-native species here?
So which is it?
We have been told by WDFW that they can not spawn in our streams with each other or non Atlantics.......so what's the problem? :dunno:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on October 27, 2017, 07:40:46 PM