Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2017, 11:55:40 AM
I personally see this as being an important "yes" and my reasoning is as follows. First, hunting and fishing guides may be someone's introduction to our state. A good and ethical guide will bring people back year after year. An unethical one will have people leave and never come back. This not only affects the guides services but all the peripheral economy that the visitors take part in. Ethical guiding services have the right equipment, leases, experience, employees/labor, and must compete with cheaper, less ethical guides who have a fraction of the overhead and don't care about return business - they take the money and run.
Let's hear it from guides, hunters who've used guides, anyone interested or concerned. If there's overwhelming support, we should considering starting a petition of concerned WA hunters to send to the director. Fire away!
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 05, 2017, 11:59:11 AM
Post by: Dan-o on December 05, 2017, 12:01:56 PM
Government is already intrusive enough?
E.G. Why does a hairdresser need to be licensed! ) (:2 /+('t?
Let the market work and the buyer beware.
I'll take Caveat Emptor over the nanny state.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 05, 2017, 12:04:45 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2017, 12:18:14 PM
I am a NO.
Government is already intrusive enough?
E.G. Why does a hairdresser need to be licensed! ) (:2 /+('t?
Let the market work and the buyer beware.
I'll take Caveat Emptor over the nanny state.
Lots of businesses need to be licensed to protect consumers. Hairdressers need to be licensed to pay for the health inspections to make sure you don't get lice when you get a haircut. Food servers need to be licensed so you don't die of food poisoning. This isn't requesting a regulation on hunters. It's a protection for them and for the guide industry. :twocents:
Post by: Curly on December 05, 2017, 12:21:48 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2017, 12:26:34 PM
Post by: Curly on December 05, 2017, 12:35:48 PM
I'm torn on the issue though. Maybe bigtex can give his theory on why the state hasn't required hunting guides to be licensed?
Post by: huntnphool on December 05, 2017, 12:39:53 PM
The ongoing thread about our favorite guide service, another thread about a fishing guide who supported and encouraged poaching, and other threads from time-to-time has me ask this: Is it time to have standards and licensing for WA guide services?
To what end?.............you can't legistlate morality! ;)
Post by: Antlershed on December 05, 2017, 12:49:13 PM
Aren't fishing guides required to be licensed by the state?Yes, fishing guides must be licensed. Charter licenses (saltwater) are even limited to the point that the state has not issued any new ones in years. Guys can, however, sell/lease out their Charter license to others.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2017, 01:41:36 PM
The ongoing thread about our favorite guide service, another thread about a fishing guide who supported and encouraged poaching, and other threads from time-to-time has me ask this: Is it time to have standards and licensing for WA guide services?
To what end?.............you can't legistlate morality! ;)
I'm not talking about anything close to legislating morality. Would you go to a restaurant without a health license? Why do you think they need them?
If you read my post, the end would better representation of hunting in our state, consumer protection, and some standardization and monitoring. We're one of the few states without licensed hunting guides. Montana, ID, WY, CO, UT, AK all license and they all have a robust guiding and peripheral economy. We've got great guides who lose business to frauds and slouches and steer people away from our state because of their shady practices. This hurts not only our hunting but others who benefit from the income they bring in. As well, poor guides can put unsuspecting hunters in danger in their choices of hunting areas, their lack of woodsmanship and other skills, and their lack of proper preparedness and equipment.
Post by: Special T on December 05, 2017, 01:49:27 PM
Does not one ever check out Better Business Beuros scores on people?
I can think of sever people/companies that have been talked about at length and thier questionable activities. I wish all people were forthright and how they do business, but mostly if you ask around and do a little net searching now you can get vast amounts of feedback.
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Post by: cavemann on December 05, 2017, 01:49:46 PM
As for the business benefit, I'm pretty sure those states benefit from the abundance of animals not how good the guides are. I personally could care less if we get more out of state hunters, I'd like to see less. I'm with Dan-O, buyer beware. If you are hunting with a guide do your research and more often than not most do so off of referrals and word of mouth.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2017, 01:56:19 PM
Post by: Stein on December 05, 2017, 02:08:47 PM
I get the "do your research" but at the end of the day, one of the values of hiring a guide is that they are doing the work for you. If you have to go down to checking who owns what property, how many acres it is, whether animals are using it and who it is leased to, it kind of takes away the point.
If you are from out of state, you basically can do a bit of googling, call the guy and then a bunch of trust that what he says is true.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 05, 2017, 02:31:00 PM
The main benefit I could see is that there would be an avenue to investigate complaints and revoke their license. Right now, you are pretty much limited to internet rants of one form or another. If you think about it, just about any professional service requires a license and there is a board that investigates complaints.
I get the "do your research" but at the end of the day, one of the values of hiring a guide is that they are doing the work for you. If you have to go down to checking who owns what property, how many acres it is, whether animals are using it and who it is leased to, it kind of takes away the point.
If you are from out of state, you basically can do a bit of googling, call the guy and then a bunch of trust that what he says is true.
:yeah:
Post by: huntnphool on December 05, 2017, 03:04:31 PM
The ongoing thread about our favorite guide service, another thread about a fishing guide who supported and encouraged poaching, and other threads from time-to-time has me ask this: Is it time to have standards and licensing for WA guide services?
To what end?.............you can't legistlate morality! ;)
I'm not talking about anything close to legislating morality. Would you go to a restaurant without a health license? Why do you think they need them?
If you read my post, the end would better representation of hunting in our state, consumer protection, and some standardization and monitoring. We're one of the few states without licensed hunting guides. Montana, ID, WY, CO, UT, AK all license and they all have a robust guiding and peripheral economy. We've got great guides who lose business to frauds and slouches
This suggests Montana, ID, WY, CO, UT, AK are free of frauds and slouches, I can assure you they are not.
My point is, it doesn't matter what kind of standardized monitoring you impliment, there will always be guides with issues, like the few you are referring to.
Remember, there are laws making it illegal to shoot someone, yet it happens daily. :twocents:
Post by: bigtex on December 05, 2017, 03:08:27 PM
Aren't fishing guides required to be licensed by the state?Yes. Hunting are not though.
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Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2017, 03:21:37 PM
The ongoing thread about our favorite guide service, another thread about a fishing guide who supported and encouraged poaching, and other threads from time-to-time has me ask this: Is it time to have standards and licensing for WA guide services?
To what end?.............you can't legistlate morality! ;)
I'm not talking about anything close to legislating morality. Would you go to a restaurant without a health license? Why do you think they need them?
If you read my post, the end would better representation of hunting in our state, consumer protection, and some standardization and monitoring. We're one of the few states without licensed hunting guides. Montana, ID, WY, CO, UT, AK all license and they all have a robust guiding and peripheral economy. We've got great guides who lose business to frauds and slouches
This suggests Montana, ID, WY, CO, UT, AK are free of frauds and slouches, I can assure you they are not.
My point is, it doesn't matter what kind of standardized monitoring you impliment, there will always be guides with issues, like the few you are referring to.
Remember, there are laws making it illegal to shoot someone, yet it happens daily. :twocents:
Of course there will always be frauds and slouches. I didn't say there wouldn't. But, in states that issue guiding licenses, a harmed consumer has redress through the state licensing process that can keep the slouches from continuing to hurt other consumers. If you lose your license, you're done. Not so here. They can continue harming consumers as long as they're able.
Post by: NRA4LIFE on December 05, 2017, 04:05:18 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2017, 04:07:32 PM
An unethical guide can get a license and is this going to change his or her ways somehow? I doubt it.
I'll try one more time for those who still don't understand the benefit of issuing a license. Read slowly please. If they rip people off, their license can be revoked.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 05, 2017, 04:22:38 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on December 05, 2017, 04:25:10 PM
I am a NO.I'm a no as well, it's not like there will be any game left in this state in a few years anyway.
Government is already intrusive enough?
E.G. Why does a hairdresser need to be licensed! ) (:2 /+('t?
Let the market work and the buyer beware.
I'll take Caveat Emptor over the nanny state.
Post by: Oh Mah on December 05, 2017, 04:27:55 PM
At the taxpayers expense.No i don't think so.People need to check more on their own to see who should get their money. :twocents: no more nanny state.An unethical guide can get a license and is this going to change his or her ways somehow? I doubt it.
I'll try one more time for those who still don't understand the benefit of issuing a license. Read slowly please. If they rip people off, their license can be revoked.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2017, 04:29:56 PM
Assuming WDFW would actually revoke it. They want money and are scared of lawyers like the guide in question likes to threaten people with. How do they actually investigate the claims of him ripping people off? Sounds like he's got a sleaze response for everything, so do they have to send undercover agents to get him claiming to own 120K acres? Or claiming to have roosies east of I-5? Can't they just yank his business license?
WDFW has no ability to yank a business license for anything. Even if they could it would have to be because he's doing something illegal. Because there are no standards, he's not breaking the rules. If he had a guide's license and was receiving complaints or breaking the rules, they could yank it.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2017, 04:30:55 PM
At the taxpayers expense.No i don't think so.People need to check more on their own to see who should get their money. :twocents: no more nanny state.An unethical guide can get a license and is this going to change his or her ways somehow? I doubt it.
I'll try one more time for those who still don't understand the benefit of issuing a license. Read slowly please. If they rip people off, their license can be revoked.
Why would it be at the taxpayer's expense? The cost of administration would come out of the fee. :dunno:
Post by: jackelope on December 05, 2017, 04:33:00 PM
An unethical guide can get a license and is this going to change his or her ways somehow? I doubt it.
I'll try one more time for those who still don't understand the benefit of issuing a license. Read slowly please. If they rip people off, their license can be revoked.
But they won't have their license revoked because a guy got a crappy hunt. If the guide breaks the law, done. If he tows the line and doesn't cross that line, that hunt could still be considered crappy or a ripoff, but unless the guide breaks the law, he's not going to lose his license.
Food service license...restaurant serves a crappy bacon cheeseburger for $27. They're not going to lose their food server's license(I don't know what it's called.) They'll get a bad reputation in due time, but they didn't do anything to cause their license to be revoked.
Post by: Oh Mah on December 05, 2017, 04:39:53 PM
HOW?If you want someones license revoked it would first have to be investigated by a state paid investigator,If the owner doesn't like what is said then its court at our cost.:yeah: At the taxpayers expense.No i don't think so.People need to check more on their own to see who should get their money. :twocents: no more nanny state.An unethical guide can get a license and is this going to change his or her ways somehow? I doubt it.
I'll try one more time for those who still don't understand the benefit of issuing a license. Read slowly please. If they rip people off, their license can be revoked.
Why would it be at the taxpayer's expense? The cost of administration would come out of the fee. :dunno:
If rules are being broken?What kind of rules are you talking about?For 1 example cell phone companies rip millions of people off daily and don't lose their business license.
Post by: NRA4LIFE on December 05, 2017, 05:05:12 PM
Post by: Dan-o on December 05, 2017, 05:18:37 PM
I see where you're coming from.
I just fundamentally don't think that gov't needs to get involved in most of the areas that gov't control is expanding into.
There are already laws that govern hunting. If a guide breaks the law, prosecute them.
If a guide is just a crappy guide...... let free enterprise take its course.
Question for you: what would licensing do that can't be accomplished just by enforcing existing laws?
:)
Post by: buckcanyonlodge on December 05, 2017, 05:30:10 PM
I don't think this would affect anyone who's posted so far, unless they're currently using WA guiding services. :dunno:. I'm interested to see how the professionals feel about it.
Your idea stinks...How's that. Do you ever use a guide here in Wash.? Bad experience? Last thing I need is WDFW controlling every thing I do and charging ME for it. Rates for guides services will rise with the cost of a license.. What do you think the requirements for qualifying for a guide license should be? Go to school to learn how to lease the right property , how to put up a tree stand, how to put stiches in a careless hunter, how to stay in better shape than your hunters, how to identify wolf tracks , the list goes on. How about background checks..mental evaluations ,or pass a physical agility course. Drug test?? How to shop for mandatory liability insurance for how many millions of dollars?? How about classes on how to babysit problem customers? I just touched the tip of the iceberg. WDFW or the state gets their foot in the door and the sky is the limit. No license from the WDFW..No..Hell NO...just my two cents..Now I need to go to my Happy Place and calm down.
Post by: Dan-o on December 05, 2017, 05:33:32 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on December 05, 2017, 05:35:21 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2017, 06:09:21 PM
I don't think this would affect anyone who's posted so far, unless they're currently using WA guiding services. :dunno:. I'm interested to see how the professionals feel about it.
Your idea stinks...How's that. Do you ever use a guide here in Wash.? Bad experience? Last thing I need is WDFW controlling every thing I do and charging ME for it. Rates for guides services will rise with the cost of a license.. What do you think the requirements for qualifying for a guide license should be? Go to school to learn how to lease the right property , how to put up a tree stand, how to put stiches in a careless hunter, how to stay in better shape than your hunters, how to identify wolf tracks , the list goes on. How about background checks..mental evaluations ,or pass a physical agility course. Drug test?? How to shop for mandatory liability insurance for how many millions of dollars?? How about classes on how to babysit problem customers? I just touched the tip of the iceberg. WDFW or the state gets their foot in the door and the sky is the limit. No license from the WDFW..No..Hell NO...just my two cents..Now I need to go to my Happy Place and calm down.
Yeah, you do need to calm down. I'm just asking the question for opinions like yours. I had the silly idea that good quality and ethical guides would like to get rid of the rif raf. No problem. Kind of an overreaction to a simple question, however. Have a nice drink! :tup:
Post by: cavemann on December 05, 2017, 06:43:32 PM
Post by: bigtex on December 05, 2017, 07:10:04 PM
Post by: JDHasty on December 05, 2017, 07:27:33 PM
Post by: DaveMonti on December 05, 2017, 09:00:37 PM
Raising revenue through tax dollars or "stimulating the economy" with out of state visitors are a drop in the bucket relative to the amount that hunters spend now.
With more non-residents and a thriving outfitting industry, less land and game will be available to locals.
I personally don't care what others think of this state by their experience with shady guides. I personally don't think too highly of this state myself, and I don't really care enough to "protect" others from shady guides to create an entire government agency to oversee them. There will be huge amounts of waste in the licensing and enforcement, and I guarantee not ONE guide will lose their license unless someone dies from negligence or the guide breaks a LOT of laws. This state doesn't do a very impressive job at prosecuting current game law breakers, so imagine them trying to pull a license off of someone who is paying guide license fees to them.
WA is not a destination hunting state and never will be. Too many hunters are here already.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2017, 09:25:24 PM
LOL.. Let me sum this up. OP ask a question, several give an answer/opinion other than the one he was hoping for. OP makes a few more attempts to sway opinions, those that disagree continue to disagree. OP continue with condescending tone and insults those that disagree. The very person who would be impacted the most and has the most insight responds and he is chastised for getting heated... LOL.. OK..
Actually I told him his was the opinion I was looking for. But he did overreact. "Your idea stinks. How about that?" I don't think I was out of line considering how he responded. It's a discussion. Not some kind of ego battle.
Post by: Seahawk12 on December 05, 2017, 10:00:56 PM
I am a NO.Didn't need to read further than this.
Government is already intrusive enough?
E.G. Why does a hairdresser need to be licensed! ) (:2 /+('t?
Let the market work and the buyer beware.
I'll take Caveat Emptor over the nanny state.
You wonder why the PoS left is winning?
Stop asking the gov to solve every problem.
I'm not going to use the "smashing head into brick wall emoticon" but thats how I feel.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 05, 2017, 10:10:07 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on December 05, 2017, 10:42:42 PM
DO YOUR RESEARCH FIRST.
You wouldn't eat dinner at a place everyone said washed the chicken off in vinegar would you? :chuckle:
Post by: Seahawk12 on December 05, 2017, 11:07:22 PM
Well, I've got my answer. It looks like most are against licensing of guides in WA. After the discussions about Shane and having heard a few people in the past talk about the benefits of licensing, I thought it was going the other direction. It also seems I've caused bad feelings and that was not my intent. I apologize to anyone who thinks I unfairly responded to them. So mods, if you want to lock this up, please do. I hope you all have a good night and a great Christmas season.My answer to your post was intended to be staight forward.
My answers uaually are.
However, I believe that discussion with you can be had without "bad feelings".
I think you are a good person.
Merry Christmas.
Post by: Jake Dogfish on December 05, 2017, 11:39:32 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on December 06, 2017, 12:20:48 AM
Post by: buckcanyonlodge on December 06, 2017, 04:55:45 AM
Post by: Special T on December 06, 2017, 11:38:14 AM
In the case of Washington State the "cure" would be far worse than the disease.Truth!
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Post by: Special T on December 10, 2017, 08:31:27 AM
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Post by: White Pass Outfitters on December 10, 2017, 09:01:35 AM
But as a lic. Outfitter and Guide. through the FS I sure would like to get rid of all the non lic outfitters that work my areas. I can report them and all they get is a letter in the mail if that even. I have giving names to the FS AND NOTHING has been down about it. So I guess I would have to be for it. It also would be easier hiring guides for the season, if they come up with the right qualifications for Big game guides. But you are right with the prices going up, they would have too. If things dont change in wa st soon, I will be heading to a st where it is required and buying an outfitter out. Preferable Wyoming where they try and work with the outfitters. Just my opinion as an outfitter. oh one more thing if they do require guides to be lic. Then the Outfitters should get a couple Guaranteed tags also, if land owners get them why not an outfitter ? Again just my opinion.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 10, 2017, 10:32:20 AM